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    Canonfire :: View topic - New in Greyhawk - playing ToEE before the Greyhawk Wars
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    New in Greyhawk - playing ToEE before the Greyhawk Wars
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 12:00 am  
    New in Greyhawk - playing ToEE before the Greyhawk Wars

    Greetings!

    I'm an oldschool FR player and am currently preparing my first Greyhawk campaign ever. After playing AD&D 2nd in the last years I'm planning to run this one as a Hackmaster campagin.

    My question are as follows:

    1) The original ToEE is missing some side adventures - there's the moathouse and nuln and then it's off to the temple itself. Are there any blogs / websites you know off that have handled this problem in the last decades?

    2) I'm using the original Greyhawk Box and the 1st Ed Hardcover for this campagin, as well as Oerth Journal 7&8 with all it's Verbobonc information to prepare myself right now. I do have plenty of 2nd and 3rd ed stuff but want to set this campagin prior to the Greyhawk Wars. Is there any more material you can suggest to me for preparing this campagin and getting the right mood of whats making Greyhawk special?

    3) How should I handle the different human races for my players? Shall I describe the differences to them or just suggest that they are all hailing from the same "race" and expand their information later in the campaign to not overload them with infos in the beginning?

    Thx for your help!
    Cy
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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 6:50 am  

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk_Player%27s_Guide

    The Player's Guide contains information intended for players, rather than dungeon masters.The book emphasizes character development over comprehensive coverage. The book gives a basic overview of the history, culture, and geography of the world of Oerth. It contains rules on creating members of various material orders, priestly sects, and bands of Knights and Rangers. It also includes small descriptions of important characters to inform players of who's who, and it also covers various humanoid races. The book includes some well-detailed maps of the world at large, as well as Greyhawk City in particular. The book contains new player kits, and role-playing tips to fit in with earlier material.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greyhawk:_The_Adventure_Begins

    The Adventure Begins contains a general overview of the world of Oerth, including updates on the world's history, notable calendar events, and descriptions of the cultural and geographical divisions of the area. The book provides much specific information on the City of Greyhawk, the largest and most populous city of Oerth, including details on everything form its ruling council to its criminal codes, and descriptions of notable locations and characters within the city.

    Yours Graciously,
    The Dark Herald.


    Last edited by DarkHerald on Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:41 pm; edited 3 times in total
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:16 am  
    Re: New in Greyhawk - playing ToEE before the Greyhawk Wars

    Cyric wrote:
    3) How should I handle the different human races for my players? Shall I describe the differences to them or just suggest that they are all hailing from the same "race" and expand their information later in the campaign to not overload them with infos in the beginning?


    For the most part, they're artifacts of the Great Migrations 1,000 years ago and no longer exist in the Flanaess. There are a few places with "pureblooded" Baklunish, Oeridians, Flan, and Suel, but after 1,000 years they're very different, their cultures intermixed to some degree even if their genes aren't. Throughout most of the central Flanaess, almost everyone you meet is going to be mixes of Oeridian and Suel heritage and will think of themselves as citizens of whatever nation they're from, not members of any particular ancestral race.

    A major exception is the Rhennee, who have a distinct culture.

    The Baklunish West is another story; it's remained isolated from the Flanaess and it's a very exotic place compared to the lands familiar to most PCs adventuring in Verbobonc.

    A nation's ethnic heritage will color its current culture. Tenh and Geoff are very Flan, the Scarlet Brotherhood is militantly Suel, the Wolf and Tiger nomads are distantly Baklunish, and the bluebloods of the Great Kingdom think of themselves as racially pure Oeridians even though they manifestly aren't. But for the most part, these races are ancient history and the PCs will seldom need to think about them. It's like, if you were setting a campaign in medieval Europe would you need to educate your players right away on Visigoths, Picts, Celts, Angles, Romans, and Saxons? Nope, and those races are much more recent than the Suel and Oeridians are in the world of Greyhawk. You'd teach them about Englishmen, Frenchmen, Scots, and Welsh instead. Same in Oerth. The human races are DM's tools, to help you as DM figure out what a nation's culture and religion might be like by considering its ethnic origins. Players have no need to care about them. They no longer exist.
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 8:54 am  

    As for sidetreks, one place you might consider mining for ideas is the PC version of ToEE by Atari. I played through it and found it quite fun. It isn't exactly like the original adventure, but adds many small quests for lower-level PCs than were in the original.

    SirXaris
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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:11 am  

    Thx for your replies!

    I had the impression that the Player's Guide as well as the The adventure begins handbook are both after war handbooks and therefor not quite right for a post war campaign. Am I wrong here?

    I'll try to get my hands on the novels, though.

    I played the Atari game when it was released and only remember that I was quite dissatisfied with it. Do you remember some of the sidetrack adventures?
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:24 am  
    Re: New in Greyhawk - playing ToEE before the Greyhawk Wars

    Hail and well met, Cyric! Lord of Murder! Wink

    Let me invite you to go over to the "Welcome to Greyhawk" thread and introduce yourself to us -- by way of telling us something about yourself and your gaming history.

    Rasgon has done an excellent job of explaining the "race" issue to you, but no one here would expect anything less of him. Yes, he's that good. Therefore, allow me to concentrate on answering a specific "point" of your question:

    Cyric wrote:
    Shall I describe the differences to them or just suggest that they are all hailing from the same "race" and expand their information later in the campaign to not overload them with infos in the beginning?


    Now, everyone has their own way of doing things, but this is how it works in my game.

    A first level character is already a "hero." He is "above" the common man -- which is why he has a level. Wink

    So, in my game, first level characters "begin life" somewhere between 16 and 20 years of age. They just "left home," just "finished school," etc.

    Now, do you know any people in our world who, at the ages of 16-20, don't know the difference between blacks and whites? French and English?

    So, you need to explain certain things to your players before you begin and all during the campaign. For example, you can say: "Now, this is something your character would already know . . . "

    You can only give them so much info at the beginning of the game, that's true. But you will need to give them more as the campaign progresses. And you need to let them know that it's information they would already have . . . just because they grew up in "Furyondy." Or where-ever.

    So welcome to the Ancient World of Greyhawk! And good gaming!
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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 1:16 pm  

    Welcome Cyric!
    Cyric wrote:
    I had the impression that the Player's Guide as well as the The adventure begins handbook are both after war handbooks and therefor not quite right for a post war campaign. Am I wrong here?

    The Player's Guide has a lot of information on the different human races, including optional racial ability modifiers and cultural role-playing suggestions. It also has player kits which may be of interest, including Ranger Knights of the Gnarley Forest (inspired by Otis' description in ToEE) and Knights of the Hart. The other half of the book is an abridged version of the 585-591 history found in the Adventure Begins and random material culled from other products.

    The Adventure Begins focuses mainly on the lands around the Free City of Greyhawk and doesn't deal with the Flanaess in a comprehensive manner. It won't be very useful to a pre-wars campaign unless your players take a hiatus from ToEE to visit Greyhawk, the eastern Gnarly, or the northern Wild Coast. The most useful portions for your campaign would probably be a simplified version of the old WoG weather generator and a nice chapter on festivals and holidays observed throughout the central Flanaess. According to TAB, Viscount Wilfrick dies in 587 CY and some changes take place, so you may want to get a copy when the time comes. Finally, TAB contains a brief sentence saying that Mordenkainen and the CoE contributed in some way to the first fall of the Temple (p61). (Mordenkainen meddles in the Temple's affairs again in the Gygax novel Artifact of Evil.)

    The City of Greyhawk box would probably be more useful than either TAB or the Players' Guide. It describes the pre-Wars version of the City, details the Circle of Eight (whose agents might become involved), and contains 20 adventure cards that could easy be adapted to the Kron Hills, Gnarley, or Verbobonc and used as sidetracks. It also details a notable humanoid den in the eastern Gnarley that could be tied into the Temple's plots.

    WG8 Fate of Istus contains a better version of Verbobonc than the one detailed in Vecna Lives (I forget which source was favored by the OJ articles). It includes a map of the city, a nice RKJ urban adventure for 10th-12th level characters, and updates events to 579-580. By this time the castle in Hommlet is completed and the Temple apparently organized humanoids in the Pomarj to "raid adjacent areas" (p93, there's recent discussion about this at: http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=47909&p=1128482&hilit=ulek#p1128482

    Quote:
    I'll try to get my hands on the novels, though.

    I think Dark Herald's pictures are fan modules. For novels, check out The Temple of Elemental Evil by Thomas M. Reid, Queen of the Demonweb Pits by Paul Kidd, and, again, Artifact of Evil. I haven't read the first two, by the Gygax novel is quite good.
    Quote:
    I played the Atari game when it was released and only remember that I was quite dissatisfied with it. Do you remember some of the sidetrack adventures?

    I have yet to play it, but I heard the game's mini-quests in Hommlet were terrible enough to prompt a fan patch called the "Welkwood Bog Quest" or some such. Check out http://www.co8.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7737
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 3:57 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    Quote:
    I'll try to get my hands on the novels, though.

    I think Dark Herald's pictures are fan modules.


    They're mockups he made in Photoshop. I don't think they're even modules at this point. I was confused at first, too; I knew they weren't anything that TSR/WotC had published, but I had to click on his link to the other thread before I knew what they were supposed to be. Basically, I think they're just adventures he plans on running next January, not anything that's written down at this point.

    Dark Herald, posting fake module covers without any explanation is really confusing. And they're also expanding the width of this thread to the point where it's difficult to scroll through and read it. I'd suggest removing the images, replacing them with narrower ones, and including a prominent explanation of what exactly you're showing us. There was really no point in you posting those images in two different threads, anyway; a simple link to the other thread would have been better. They're very pretty and well done, but they're pretty much the opposite of useful information. Instead, you've just misled the poster you meant to inform.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 9:32 pm  

    The covers are mockups that I made up in Photoshop. The are to replace the covers of Temple of Elemental Evil, Scourge of the Slave Lords and Queen of the Spiders. The other 3 are modules are of my own creation and help me tie my campaign arc together.

    I didn't notice that the thread was expanded, as I work on 2x 24"HD LCDS at very high resolutions.

    As Vestcoat stated the Player's guide will be of more use to you initially.

    But if you really want to get the tone right for YOUR Greyhawk, then I would suggest that you read through the older modules Written by Gary Gygax. Greyhawk can be very unforgiving to the adventurer, it is a hard world out there.

    There is also a document that was written by Banesfinger that covers the City of Verbobonc and surrounds. He used the D&D Gazetter, Fate of Istus Adventure & Map, The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, The Codex:Verbobonc Document Oerth Journal and other RPGA sites as reference. He included a large scale map of his creation in full colour. It printed out to about 12 or so pages. Although not exactly the timeline of ToEE it is still a good resource for Verbobonc and with a little work can be adjusted to 576-8CY.

    There is a mini adventure that come with the City of Greyhawk Boxset that may be of use to you; Verbeeg of the Gnarley Forest, if I am not mistaken it is around 5 - 6th level. That is if you looking to flesh out the surrounding areas.

    In the Beginning less is more, let the players learn about Greyhawk as they play, but most of all you need to make it your own.

    My intent was not to mislead you with my artwork, apologies.

    Yours Graciously
    The Dark Herald.
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    Tue Sep 20, 2011 11:26 pm  

    First a big thx to all who invest so much time in this threat. Awesome!

    I do have the TAB as well as the Player's Giude and allready skimmed through it. But as you write yourself most of it is only usefull for post war campaigns - and the info on festivals is not the most important at this stage of planning.
    What I do not own is WG8 Fate of Istus so it seems I'll have to change this soon. Nice hint.

    I will try to do some small notes on the human races of Greyhawk for my player. I love to give them information as the game goes on but giving away too much at the start often scares them a bit. They want to play and learn by playing - not learn before they are able to start playing.

    The link to the Dragonsfoot forum helps as well - this is what I hoped for. There must have been many campagins played around the ToEE so there should be a way to not come uo with everything from scratch.

    Thx again to all of you!
    cy
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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:42 am  

    As it so happens, I'm currently running the Temple of Elemental Evil with the HackMaster system. I've been running it for almost 4 years now. it is an enormous module and its easy to be intimidated by it. If you want any ideas on how to run it, I think I can be of use.

    The Grey Mouser
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    Wed Sep 21, 2011 10:22 pm  

    Hey GreyMouser, this sounds awesome.

    Do you and / or your group got something like a campaign site running? A blog?

    I would love to hear some suggestions and experiences of you - so please feel free to provide as much input as you find the time to offer.

    greetings
    cy
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    Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:13 pm  

    Hi Cyric and welcome!
    I have been playing TOEE using pathfinder for over a year now, and the group have just taken a break whilst I start a 1st ed rendition of the Slavers modules.

    I fleshed out the campaign substantially, so much so that the players have only been into the Temple proper on 3 occasions and are pretty reticent about going back! I have added elements including weaving the Elder Elemental God into the plot, using shards of his shattered form (Beory's strike after petrifying him) as being the source of the power for the elemental nodes, emanating from a much older temple complex below the existing one. The gems in the Orb of Golden Death are part of its essence, and the vortex that powers the nodes can indeed destroy the Orb, but will have the effect of releasing the Elder one.....

    Anyway, with that in mind there are several sites around which point to the ancient worship of the Elemental God and provide clues. At the same time I have extended the cast of characters surrounding the temple. Among them are a high level witch and her coven / acolytes. She previously held a position of power within the temple, fled its destruction, and now seeks a way back in, having been frozen out by the Iuz faction. Her base, and the interaction by her acolytes with various bandit groups have fuelled a few sessions.

    Iuz forces have infiltrated some woodsmen villages within the Gnarley, one such community being held in thrall by a Dark Dryad in league with them. Their aim is to remain hidden, but launch recruitment campaigns with the surrounding humanoid bands and watch the general activity and response from the local area, including Verbobonc. One band of brigands (including wererats) are running amok and are in league with the witches. this has caused open conflict with the bandits supported by the Temple, who consider them rash and likely to draw far too much attention to the area.... PCs were recruited to eliminated them, and thereby got a foothold in the Temple dealings.

    Dark Elves have been sent from afar at the behest of the priests of Lolth to discover the source of the Elder Elemental God's power. Lareth of the moathouse, and secret disciple of Lolth has provided information of interest to the drow, suffering a schism with a dissident faction worshipping the Elder Elemental God (See the Giants / Drow series G1-3 / D1-3 for details). Their aim is to discover the truth of rumours that the God has a connection with the temple. I have placed them in an outpost, the bowels of another abandoned keep of the temple, on the outskirts of Nulb.

    In Nulb the Druid there (one I have placed), has been corrupted into the evil worship of the EEG (Elder Elemental God), believing it to be an ancient earth spirit. He is somewhat deranged, but an 'ally' of PCs and a spur to getting them involved in cleansing the temple of evil (at the behest of the EEG held in thrall there - he feels its fury and anguish at its torturous capture, but does not know its real nature).

    Just some ideas, and a few that I have been running for the past 15 months or so.
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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 8:31 am  

    Thx, Yeoman, this is awesome!

    Do you know of some website that has a good overview of all the plots, sidetracks and fractions contained within the adventure?

    I like the witch idea - I guess your players did never met her in person sofar, correct? Where did you place her lair and how does she recruit her followers? And what kind of followers anyway?

    Do you have some easy solution in mind to replace the Lolth / Dark Elves fraction of the temple? I would like to incorporate more Greyhawk elements as Lolth would be seen as very FR like by my players.

    greetings
    cy
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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:25 am  

    Cyric wrote:
    Do you have some easy solution in mind to replace the Lolth / Dark Elves fraction of the temple? I would like to incorporate more Greyhawk elements as Lolth would be seen as very FR like by my players.
    Cyric, Lolth and the drow were Greyhawk long before they were FR. Wink
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:48 am  

    Yes, WotC has mined Greyhawk since it's beginning. Blackrazor is Greyhawk -- White Plumed Mountain -- but it's in the game "Baldur's Gate II," which takes place in the world of Faerun. Lloth and the Drow are Greyhawk, so please use them! Don't surrender our Greyhawk lore to Faerun!
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:49 pm  

    I know that Loth made her first appearance in Greyhawk. But after 20+ years of Realms play it would look a bit strange to have some nemesis waiting for the players that they know from Fearun. I think this would rob Greyhawk a bit of it's mystery...

    I hope you can see where I notice a problem...
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 2:27 pm  

    Cyric wrote:
    I think this would rob Greyhawk a bit of it's mystery . . .


    And thus does truth die. FYI: The Italians did not invent spaghetti (noodles) . . . the Chinese did.

    Cyric wrote:
    I hope you can see where I notice a problem . . .


    It's not "our" game. We are not the DMs. Do with it what you will, but don't look for "approval" that you do not need and might not get. Llolth is Greyhawk, not Faerun -- in spite of twenty years.

    I, myself, having been playing Greyhawk for almost forty years, so what do I care about Faerun, or the perceptions of those who do not know Greyhawk? I don't.

    But you're the DM. Do what you please, it's your game, not ours.
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 24, 2011 6:39 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    It's not "our" game. We are not the DMs. Do with it what you will, but don't look for "approval" that you do not need and might not get. Lloth is Greyhawk, not Faerun -- in spite of twenty years.

    I, myself, having been playing Greyhawk for almost forty years, so what do I care about Faerun, or the perceptions of those who do not know Greyhawk? I don't.

    But you're the DM. Do what you please, it's your game, not ours.
    Umm, two things, M-S. First, Lloth is most definitely from Faerun; Lolth is from Greyhawk. Second, the WoG Folio was released in 1981. How have you been "playing Greyhawk for almost forty years"? Were you fortunate enough to play with Gary in Lake Geneva in the 1970s? Razz
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:14 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Lolth is from Greyhawk.


    Thanks for correcting my spelling, DMPrata. But I think you understood my point.

    DMPrata wrote:
    the WoG Folio was released in 1981. How have you been "playing Greyhawk for almost forty years"?


    Sorry if you think I "misled" you somehow. You are, of course, correct about the folio. I've been gaming since the mid-70's and was playing Greyhawk since it's beginning. But wasn't there a little brown book? I think there was. Have to double check that one though.

    Sorry I didn't clarify my hyperbole. (Feel free to look that word up)

    And as for this:

    DMPrata wrote:
    Razz


    No, thanks. I use . . . toilet paper.

    Because you were being a "smart arse."

    None of my remarks were made to deliberately offend anyone, they were made to clarify my position. Yours were made as a deliberate insult.

    So right back at you.
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    Last edited by Mystic-Scholar on Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:36 am  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I, myself, having been playing Greyhawk for almost forty years.


    Umm, two things, M-S. First, Lloth is most definitely from Faerun; Lolth is from Greyhawk. Second, the WoG Folio was released in 1981. How have you been "playing Greyhawk for almost forty years"? Were you fortunate enough to play with Gary in Lake Geneva in the 1970s? Razz


    For your Information DMPrata, Greyhawk was released by TSR in a little brown book "Dungeons & Dragons - Supplement 1 - Greyhawk, in 1976. I have a copy from 1979 that was the 12th printing!
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    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:42 am  

    tigger1tom wrote:
    For your Information DMPrata, Greyhawk was released by TSR in a little brown book "Dungeons & Dragons - Supplement 1 - Greyhawk, in 1976. I have a copy from 1979 that was the 12th printing!


    Thanks, Tigger. I didn't think I was going senile . . . yet! Laughing
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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 7:48 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    tigger1tom wrote:
    For your Information DMPrata, Greyhawk was released by TSR in a little brown book "Dungeons & Dragons - Supplement 1 - Greyhawk, in 1976. I have a copy from 1979 that was the 12th printing!


    Thanks, Tigger. I didn't think I was going senile . . . yet! Laughing



    Shocked You're not?! TT has been senile for YEARS! Makes life so much fun when you're not sure what you did 5 minutes ago! Happy
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    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:19 am  

    Yeah, but Supplement 1 doesn't have any setting information in it.

    Anyway, if Lolth seems too FR for you, I'd suggest using Graz'zt as a more distinctive patron of the drow. That's the role he played in the Gord books. Failing that, there are lots of other demon lords.
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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:43 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:


    It's not "our" game. We are not the DMs. Do with it what you will, but don't look for "approval" that you do not need and might not get. Llolth is Greyhawk, not Faerun -- in spite of twenty years.


    I'm not looking for approval - I'm looking for suggestions. Happy

    Graz'zt maybe some good idea if I will keep the drows in the module. Thx, rasgon! Some other idea would be to swap them against something totally different that feels more greyhawk then a race of dark elves, that made it's appearence in all TSR worlds but Dragonlance.

    So what would be a typical evil adversary in the world of Greyhawk?
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 9:44 am  

    I'll have to leave this one to some like Rasgon.

    Except for the Lerara -- a Suloise people that never made it out of Slerotin's tunnel -- I can't think of an 'evil' people that are Greyhawk specific, that is, a group that hasn't been used in another game setting.

    Sorry.

    And I do not think the Ur-Flan would suit you, because they are simply Flan. According to Canon material, the Ur-Flan were simply the Magic Users, Priests and Nobility of the ancient flan.

    (Slerotin's tunnel is connected with the Underdark of Oerth)

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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 10:43 am  

    Cyric wrote:
    So what would be a typical evil adversary in the world of Greyhawk?


    Tharizdun cultists, Vecna cultists, duergar, derro, evil giants, Iggwilv, Zuggtmoy, Demogorgon, Death Knights, Iuz, Orcus, Hierarchs of the Horned Society, Overking Ivid, the Scarlet Brotherhood, The Slave Lords, Keraptis, False Keraptis, Acererak, Kyuss, Dragotha, Erac's Cousin, and a host of others. I'm not being flippant, I'm just letting you know there are a ton of choices. If you're looking to replace the drow and Lolth as the overarching evil behind ToEE, you could go with almost anything. I planned on doing the Temple in 3e but never got around to it. I've never been a big fan of the "demon lord wheels within demon lord wheels within Tharizdun wheels" plot of ToEE, so I planned on just having it be resurgent cultists of Zuggtmoy allied with the Princes of Elemental evil. To flesh out the side-treks I planned on having the party, while in Nulb stumble upon a side-plot where arms are being supplied to humanoid tribes in the Gnarley that the cults of the temple have been organizing, through Dyvers, with the source being the Great Lords of the South in Furyondy. Their part in it is that they are hoping to disrupt the political power of Verbobonc and then Veluna, which they see as a threat to them. At the same time they can use that threat as an excuse to reclaim Dyvers. There are lots of other possibilities, having encounters with Zuggtmoy and Elemental Evil cultists.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:13 pm  

    Hi Cyric,

    I don't have a website, but I have notes and such. Unfortunately most are not in an intelligible form, although I do have an expanded map of Nulb, and a few bits that I did on word, including a chart showing the relationship between all of the different factions. Happy to scan and send what I have got if you PM me.

    Now firstly regarding Lolth. I only tied her into the adventure because of the link in T1 (Lareth being recruited to her cause) and also because I wanted a campaign arc that will allow for the later Giants / Drow series to flow. Other than that there is no reason not to substitute her for the minions of any other demon lord that has had its followers usurped by the EEG. Grazz't, Orcus or Demogorgon would all be obvious choices. In that case substitute the drow for another race, maybe something completely new.

    As for the witches; no the party have never faced-off against Skireya at this point, although they have come close. The main power-base is in the marshes to the north of Nulb, in an old shack built atop a group of ancient Flan barrows. Within this complex, under the cottage, is a chamber that ultimately has a gate to the lands of the Fey. The place is protected by mud elementals, some scarecrows and a number of evil fey minions. Some green hags also lair there. In my campaign the witches coven have been raiding the fey lands for relatively powerful good denizens and twisting them into green hags with rituals. Beyond that, the witches also have the support of many bandit groups, providing healing salves, charms and other items of use. This has kept them close to the temple, and also less vulnerable to being attacked by the temple factions, as they have a good intelligence network.

    The start of the campaign revolved around the PCs being summoned to a small monastic settlement of Cuthbertian clerics and lay members. The settlement recently experienced a troubling incident which the Church and city of Verbobonc want investigated. A 'pilgrim' was discovered secretly communicating with a 'talisman'. When challenged he murdered the monk that noticed it and fled, dropping the talisman and leaving his personal effects. When presented to the head of the order, the talisman was inspected, but when it appeared to be operating it exploded as a fireball, killing the priest. Two monk were found to be acting strangely thereafter, and found to by simulacrum. Both had recently been on an errand to a woodmans settlement to collect their annual tithe of Ipp trees, in return for the 'monks' providing healing and curing disease through the year. As a patrol sent to investigate has disappeared, the PCs were sent to escort the new head of the order. (In my campaign Verbobonc is heavily dependant on adventurers, having sent a large contingent to support Furyondy in what appears to be an imminent attack by Iuz. This makes military resources scarce). The PCs ultimately discover that the forces of Iuz were seeking to find and destroy a prophecy written by a hermit, who later was revered by Cuthbertians as a holy-man. The prophecy is the one which appears on page 44 of the module. It turns out that the 'prophet' was obsessed with an ancient Flan cave community (which is the site of part of a shard of the EEG). Cue undead, a weak demon and ultimately the prophecy!

    From there, some digging as to the old legend sent them via Hommlet and soon investigating the old moathouse......

    Enough waffle from me though Razz I hope you have got your own creative juices flowing. Let me know if I can be of help.

    Cheers.
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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 12:18 pm  

    And I just noticed the posts by Smillan and Rasgon and Mystic Scholar. Apologies, as I have clearly repeated some of their thoughts before I read them. Doh!
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 3:39 pm  

    The ingundi, shapeshifting lizard men described in Greyhawk Adventures, are a monster that only appears in the Greyhawk setting and have pretty much never been used, so they might be an interesting alternative to drow. They only have low intelligence, though, and they're mostly solitary, but say for the sake of argument that a demon prince (Demogorgon, say, or Sess'innek) has sent a demonic servant to round a bunch of them up and give them a little direction so that they can check whatever it is his rivals Zuggtmoy and the Princes of Elemental Evil are up to in Nulb. Maybe there are some dopplegangers (make them su-dopplegangers, created by the ancient Suel Imperium in their ancient wars) around to keep them honest. Together, they take the form of humans and demihumans, infiltrating the surrounding communities and the cultists of Elemental Evil, subverting them to their ends.

    Derro exist in the Forgotten Realms, but Greyhawk has used them more. They're legacies of the Suel Imperium too. They might be an interesting faction.

    Or the skulks. Nobody's used skulks much. They're pretty sneaky and subtle, but probably best used as minions for something that can pass as human. Probably humans, in fact. They worship Syrul, but would make pretty good minions of Graz'zt as well.

    If you use drow, make them very unlike Forgotten Realms drow. Maybe they're dominated by a horned male drow, and they worship Baphomet. Maybe they're bone-pale and they worship a snake demon, and their leaders have forked tongues.

    Myconid and vegepygmy followers of Zuggtmoy.

    The priesthood of Iuz.

    Adding more factions could help expand the adventure and offer ideas for side quests beyond the temple. The Slavers, secretly abducting people to bring down to the Pomarj. Followers of St. Cuthbert whose excessive zeal to bash in the heads of backsliders, heretics, and the chaotic cause them to be enemies of the PCs as often as they are allies. The Old Faith, the ancient druidic religion followed by the locals before the followers of St. Cuthbert came in and started oppressing them, might have its own secrets and scandals; maybe they were once allies of the Elemental Evil cultists before they got in over their heads and realized the Elementalists were even worse than the Cuthbertites. Rivalry between the four factions of Elemental Evil, the followers of each elemental prince. Maybe the Elemental Princes of Good get involved. Maybe there are rumors that the Mace of Cuthbert is buried somewhere beneath the temple. Maybe the followers of Keoghtom are after the Swords of Answering.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:15 pm  

    Cyric wrote:
    Thx, Yeoman, this is awesome!

    Do you know of some website that has a good overview of all the plots, sidetracks and fractions contained within the adventure?


    Check out EGG's Q&A in Oerth Journal 12: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/5851594/Downloads_Section/Oerth_Journal/OJ_12.pdf

    Quote:
    Do you have some easy solution in mind to replace the Lolth / Dark Elves fraction of the temple?
    .......
    Some other idea would be to swap them against something totally different that feels more greyhawk then a race of dark elves...


    Whatever substitute you choose, remember that the Temple factions are chaotic. The sense of disorganization and in-fighting is an important element in the adventure and you'll probably want to pick a CE/NE race/god/cult.

    Also think about replacing the drow with something from an equally alien environment. Drow aren't at home on the surface and, IIRC, don't appear in the module, with Lolth instead operating through intermediaries. And remember that the Lolth faction is weak, she being able to "give only encouragement" (29).

    With these points in mind, here are a few GH-specific substitutes:

    *The Earth Dragon cult (see Slavers) is NE, has territorial ambitions in the region, and worships a power that can grant spells. Is would allow you to play up the Pomarj connection (see my previous post) and build a stronger bridge to the next supermodule in the series, A1-4. Have Lareth worship the Earth Dragon/Zuggtmoy. He and a few other Earth Dragon agents would be responsible for the Temple's raiding bands of Pomarj humanoids (WG8). Like Lolth, the Earth Dragon would only be able to exert limited influence because the Temple is a fair distance from his power base in the Drachensgrabs.

    *The Yak-men (Dragon Magazine #241, p95) are NE, worship Tharizdun, and carry out plots across the Flanaess from their base in the Chrystalmist mountains. This would allow you to follow the supermodule campaign arc through the Giant series and then just replace the drow with Yak-men.

    *Beltar has always been my favorite unused GH cult. She's CE and has plenty of faithful among the Underdark races.

    *True Ghouls are NE, Nerull worshipers hailing from Oerth's underdark (Dungeon 70).

    *Finally - RAXIVORT! Wink

    EDIT: They're not GH, but I've always been a fan of the Jezulien Mud Sorcerers (Dungeon #37). You could dump Lolth and use Mud Sorcerer agents as a schism in the Earth and/or Water Temple.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:07 am  

    I just want to tell you a BIG thank you! There are so many great ideas here - wow. You know, most of the time when you join a new rpg community you get told that you have to do an adventuer like "the old ones" planed it to be or that there is your way and the right way and stuff like this... but here on canonfire you gave me replies in a depth I wouldn't have dreamed of!

    I started to write some stuff down, skimming through the sources you provided and allready started to expand on the information of the adventure itself.

    The Oerth Journal is some really great magazine as I have noticed in the last days - some awesome resource for new greyhawk dungeon masters.

    Thx again for all you input and if you feel like it don't stop writing down what comes to your mind. I'm really greatfull for the help!

    cy
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:35 am  

    Wow! There's nothing we enjoy hearing more than that. Happy

    Glad the thoughts and ideas of our community were able to be of help to you, Cyric. Cool

    And thanks for not trying to murder Boccob. We appreciate that. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:47 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    And thanks for not trying to murder Boccob. We appreciate that. Wink


    But, would he care...? Razz

    SirXarsis
    GreySage

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    Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:27 pm  

    Mystic Scholar, also known as The Whip . . . of Dread Tharizdun . . . consults his ledgers to see if this impudent Sir Xaris owes the The Whip any articles. Shocked

    That impudent lout better hope not! Evil

    Crack!

    Mwahahahahahahaha! Evil Grin
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 7:52 am  
    Lareth of the moathouse

    As I stated in the introduction I'm planning on playing the Hackmaster version of ToEE which differs in some places from the original adventure. For ones, the 4 branches of the temple are of different evil facetts (greed, lust, etc.) instead of putting elemental cults that are in part in total opposion to one another into it's centre (some change I found quite clever).

    Another change is that Lareth got replaced because he couldn't come up with enough success in his doings. It sais he was killed by it's successor but this is something I do not like. What clerical community would agree to kill off one of their 6th level priests as well as replacing him with a priest of a rival cult even if the cults are living in some strained alliance? It would me logical that he got at least warned by his own cult ahead of time.
    So I think Lareth will instead be near Hommlet, living in some burned down way inn (those are existing in this part of Greyhawk, aren't they?) knowing that traveling back to the temple could end bad for his career. He charmed one or two farmer in the village who provide him with food and news while beeing on the lookout for small groups of bandits or humanoids to form up a new gang and - one not so far away day - recapture the moathouse from his successor and showing his worth to his superiors by this (yeah, not total logical from the outside, but we are talking about some chaotic evil brain here).
    He does have some gold from the moathouse treasury which he did hide away in the forest for a moment like this (high wisdom) to pay a new group of felons or two.

    Lareth could act as an information broker for the pc's knwoing the moathouse like the back of his hand. He would try to use them to get into his former "castle" and capture or at least kill his successor (who in the meantime will send out agents to find and kill Lareth once and for all).

    The pc's should become sceptical about his knowledge and try to figure out how he got it in the first place. They could learn early that the alliance of the different sects is an unstable which could be expoited later in the adventure (how to live through the temple dungeons without realising this?).

    Any suggestions? Any obvious errors in the planning?

    greeting
    cy (who is still looking for this Boccob of yours... ;) )
    GreySage

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    Mon Oct 03, 2011 10:51 am  
    Re: Lareth of the moathouse

    Cyric wrote:
    (who is still looking for this Boccob of yours . . . Wink )


    Shocked Surprised

    I warned you! You murderous, conniving, foul $#@*&%#! Evil Grin
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