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    Canonfire :: View topic - What does "the Pale" mean?
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    What does "the Pale" mean?
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    Novice

    Joined: Oct 23, 2011
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    Sun Oct 23, 2011 1:24 am  
    What does "the Pale" mean?

    Hi there!

    I want to translate the name of the theocracy in my language, but I don't really know the exact meaning of it (if there is one) so this is difficult.
    Does it mean that this is the land of pale-skinned people? Or pale means peg in the name?

    Please, help!
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:02 am  

    All hail wikipedia Wink

    The Pale (An Pháil in Irish) or the English Pale (An Pháil Shasanach), was the part of Ireland that was directly under the control of the English government in the late Middle Ages.
    The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake, specifically a stake used to support a fence. From this came the figurative meaning of boundary and eventually the phrase beyond the pale, as something outside the boundary.
    Also derived from the "boundary" concept was the idea of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. As well as the Pale in Ireland, the term was applied to various other English colonial settlements.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 23, 2011 10:01 am  

    I see it having dual meanings. Literally, referring to the state, and metaphorically, referring to the fellowship of "true" followers of Pholtus throughout the Oerth. Within the context of our meaning of the word "pale" it can be seen to mean "within the boundary of the faith or fellowship of Pholtus."
    GreySage

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    Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:56 pm  

    The people of the Pale aren't pale-skinned; they're an Oeridian-Flan mix, so they've got a significantly darker than average skin tone. One could argue that the silvery light of Pholtus's power is pale, but... nah, probably not.

    My interpretation is that the Pale was the part of the Duchy of Tenh that the Great Kingdom had full control of during its height. Later on it became an entirely separate state.

    But from what I know about Gary Gygax, likely he just wanted an excuse to make the pun that player characters had gone "beyond the Pale."
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    Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:42 pm  
    Re: What does "the Pale" mean?

    czipeter wrote:
    I want to translate the name of the theocracy in my language, but I don't really know the exact meaning of it (if there is one) so this is difficult.
    Does it mean that this is the land of pale-skinned people? Or pale means peg in the name?


    In the official spanish traslation (for example in the Players Guide) the Teocracy of the Pale is the "Teocracia de la Estaca" (Estaca = Stake, Picket, Pale).

    Sergio :-)
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    Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:36 pm  

    Quote:
    In the official spanish traslation (for example in the Players Guide) the Teocracy of the Pale is the "Teocracia de la Estaca" (Estaca = Stake, Picket, Pale).


    I'm liking the visions of burning mages (witches) at "The Stake" for crimes against the Theocracy where the offenders finally see the Light. Nice. Evil Grin Very interesting...
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    Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:56 am  

    illustr8or wrote:
    Quote:
    In the official spanish traslation (for example in the Players Guide) the Teocracy of the Pale is the "Teocracia de la Estaca" (Estaca = Stake, Picket, Pale).


    I'm liking the visions of burning mages (witches) at "The Stake" for crimes against the Theocracy where the offenders finally see the Light. Nice. Evil Grin Very interesting...



    How about this: As Rasgon suggested, the Pale was a part of Tenh originally, then became its own state later. The name could have been en epithet given to the region at the time when the theocrats were coming to power, and they had instituted a program of burning "criminals" at the stake/pale. Over time, the name stuck and they eventually made it official.

    Just a thought I had while reading this.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 24, 2011 3:46 pm  

    Crag wrote:

    The Pale (An Pháil in Irish) or the English Pale (An Pháil Shasanach), was the part of Ireland that was directly under the control of the English government in the late Middle Ages.
    The word pale derives ultimately from the Latin word palus, meaning stake, specifically a stake used to support a fence. From this came the figurative meaning of boundary and eventually the phrase beyond the pale, as something outside the boundary.
    Also derived from the "boundary" concept was the idea of a pale as an area within which local laws were valid. As well as the Pale in Ireland, the term was applied to various other English colonial settlements.


    Given the religious nature of the Pale, I always viewed it as more akin to Russia's Pale of Settlement (including "much of present-day Lithuania, Belarus, Poland, Moldova, Ukraine, and parts of western Russia), which was about the only place in the empire where Jews were allowed to settle permanently. The biggest difference, of course, is that in the WoG, the Palish formed their own Pale, rather than the government forming it for them.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 24, 2011 7:52 pm  

    First I would like to welcome you to the boards czipeter! Interesting thread by the way. Many meanings for the word pale.

    Pale could also mean we pale in comparison to the glory of Pholtus. A form of humility for all who dwell in the pale.

    Later

    Argon
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    Tue Oct 25, 2011 11:51 am  

    Czipeter -
    *Very* interesting thread ... thank you for your contribution. Incidentally, what language is it into which you are translating "pale"?

    I think that Crag really hit this one on the head. While in a fantasy world, we can make "pale" have a lot of connotations related to GH, I think that this is one that Gygax likely took from real-world inspiration. The Pale was a region of Ireland.

    It was common for traveled roads to be marked with a large wooden post that was graven with a notice or sign of some kind denoting that one was leaving the kingdom, for example. Much like the older stone stele. It was the furthest reaches of what could be considered to be lawfully controlled by the crown. These areas were near what would be called the "march", or the border. This is why a "Marquis" or "Marquessa" was the titled ruler here. To travel out of the March, or Border Marches, was to go beyond the furthest extent ... to go "beyond the pale". ... traveling outside the borders. Thus the meaning of the modern phrase of going to great extreme, or something very outside the norm. In England, going beyond the pale, was going into foreign lands. In Greyhawk, traveling north away from the kingdom, one would be going toward the lands of the northern barbarians, and the Pale is the furthest reaches of a any real kingdom as we would understand the term. (Gygax may have included it humorously, but, it is actually a fact - which I think he knew.)

    These markers eventually became smaller and became connected with various materials, making a fence. But, in etymology, there are many words that are related. These posts - depending on materials of which they were made could be called a post, a picket, a pillar, a pile, a pole, a pylon, etc. (See the connection with words here?) In English, a "pile" (as in a construction "pile driver") is a large foundation support driven into the ground. A freestanding Pile would be something like a telephone pole. So ... while a "stake" or a "peg" also fits the description, these are a bit smaller, and don't translate quite the same in English. As rol-oeste pointed out by Spanish translation, "picket" is likely the best translation in that sense. It is obvious how Pháil could easily become either "pale" or "pile" (or actually, both) if the Irish-Gaelic "ph" were simply pronounced as a "p".

    Interestingly, in heraldry and the description of coats of arms, a "pale" is a straight line down the center of a shield. It looks similar to a vertical pole. Thus, the coat of arms of the region we call The Pale is charged with a white pale on a purple background. Technically, the white stripe is decorated as ermine, a symbol of nobility, and purple is also considered a noble colour. Additionally the sun and moon of Pholtus are included - thus, sort of the "noble" "borderlands" of "Pholtus" would sort of be what a herald would read it as. Or, more properly, the Theocracy of the Pale.

    On a further heraldic note, the Pale, pile, pall, and paly are all related, as is the pallet (why do you think the packing device called a pallet is shaped the way it is? They're tiny little pales.)

    Here endth my ramblings. Smile
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Oct 26, 2011 4:45 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    Interestingly, in heraldry and the description of coats of arms, a "pale" is a straight line down the center of a shield. It looks similar to a vertical pole. Thus, the coat of arms of the region we call The Pale is charged with a white pale on a purple background. Technically, the white stripe is decorated as ermine, a symbol of nobility, and purple is also considered a noble colour. Additionally the sun and moon of Pholtus are included - thus, sort of the "noble" "borderlands" of "Pholtus" would sort of be what a herald would read it as. Or, more properly, the Theocracy of the Pale.


    Yes, the Theocracy of the Pale's heraldry is partially a "canting arms", meaning the pictorial representation is representative of its name.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 27, 2011 8:43 am  

    Icarus wrote:
    Here endth my ramblings. Smile


    Nice "ramblings," Icarus. Happy

    Feel free to 'ramble' some more. Wink
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