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    Canonfire :: View topic - Monster Strength modifiers
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Monster Strength modifiers
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

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    Sat Dec 31, 2011 4:27 pm  
    Monster Strength modifiers

    Erring on the side of caution, placing this here, as most monster descriptions I use are of the 2e sort.

    Some monsters are given Str ratings. Wondering if this applies to ALL attack damage dice, or just some. Here's why;

    Take giants. They typically use weapons, but could, theoretically, kick and stomp, or punch, or even bite. Would their massive Strength apply to ALL damage done (+7 and greater).

    Here's another. Fiends (devils, demons, and daemons alike). Many have more than just claw attack routines, including bite forms among most, and even wing buffets or tail attacks. Would damage due to great Strength modify these, too, or only the claw attacks?

    Logic tells me the damage should only apply to the claw (or even kicking) attacks, but my gut tells me it applies to EVERYTHING (bites, tails, wing buffets, whatever).

    input?

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
    Posts: 2788
    From: South-Central Pennsylvania

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    Tue Jan 03, 2012 7:02 am  

    I wouldn't think so. Here's why:

    Let's use "us." Our strength is our strength. Punch someone and you do "x" amount of damage.

    Punch someone with brass knuckles? Now you do "xyz" amount of damage. Your damage is magnified.

    The giant's club is like the tires on a car. The "inside" of the tire (near the hub) is moving at one speed. The outside of the tire -- the part in contact with the pavement -- is moving much faster.

    In short, the "end" of the giant's club is moving with much greater speed and momentum that is his fist. So it's going to "contact" the target with much greater impact.

    I'd say "normal" damage with a punch, or a kick. Magnified damage with a weapon (i.e. iron shod boots). Kick someone in the shin with your tennis shoes, then kick them in the shin with your steel toe work boots.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:03 am  

    Well, I agree with the Mystic-Scholar on most parts of his analogy, but using 'us' (humans) as an example of why a monster's bite attack should have the same strength modifier as its claw attack doesn't work exactly.

    A human warrior works out regularly with his weapons and without them so as to build up his strength. This would apply, generally, to all muscles in his body because the warrior wants to be in good shape all around. However, I seriously doubt that any human or demihuman warrior works out their jaw muscle to the extent they work out the others. Therefore, a human's bite would not benefit from the strength modifier enjoyed by the warrior when wielding weapons or kicking an opponent.

    That being said, monsters with a bite attack can be expected to use those jaw muscles regularly to attack, hold, worry, and otherwise battle against opponents and food. Therefore, for simplicity's sake, a monster's bite attack should enjoy the same strength modifier that its claws, wing buffets, kicks, tail, head bashes, etc. enjoy. 3.5 edition does this quite well, in opinion, by the way. Wink
    GreySage

    Joined: Oct 06, 2008
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    Tue Jan 03, 2012 11:15 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Monsters with a bite attack can be expected to use those jaw muscles regularly to attack, hold, worry, and otherwise battle against opponents and food.


    Naturally. I was concentrating on the punch/kick aspect.

    A dog's primary weapon is it's bite and not it's claws, as with a (house) cat.

    The same is true of alligators and crocodiles, another example. Though their tails are formidable weapons, these reptiles primarily use their "bite" to get the job done and thus apply tremendous amounts of pressure to said bite.

    I would apply the strength modifier to the crocodile's bite, but not his claw attack, as they rarely, if ever, use their claws in that manner.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    From: LG Dyvers

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    Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:04 am  

    Hmm...

    I'm sorry to keep doing this to you, Lanthorn, as I know you prefer 2nd edition, but 3.5e seems to have come up with an adequate solution to your problem.

    Mystic-Scholar's discussion has reminded me that in 3.5e a monster's primary attack receives its full Strength modifier to damage while all of its secondary attacks receive only half of the creature's Strength modifier to their damage rolls. Similarly, humanoids deal full Strength damage with their primary-hand attacks, but only half damage with their off-hand attacks.

    Each monster must be considered separately when deciding what its primary attack is. (Consider Mystic-Scholar's examples in the post above.) Perhaps that is all you need to solve your problem. Smile

    SirXaris
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    From: So. Cal

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    Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:24 am  
    Re: Monster Strength modifiers

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Erring on the side of caution, placing this here, as most monster descriptions I use are of the 2e sort.

    Some monsters are given Str ratings. Wondering if this applies to ALL attack damage dice, or just some. Here's why;

    Take giants. They typically use weapons, but could, theoretically, kick and stomp, or punch, or even bite. Would their massive Strength apply to ALL damage done (+7 and greater).

    Here's another. Fiends (devils, demons, and daemons alike). Many have more than just claw attack routines, including bite forms among most, and even wing buffets or tail attacks. Would damage due to great Strength modify these, too, or only the claw attacks?

    Logic tells me the damage should only apply to the claw (or even kicking) attacks, but my gut tells me it applies to EVERYTHING (bites, tails, wing buffets, whatever).

    input?

    -Lanthorn

    Read the very beginning of your 2E Monster Compendium I. The answer is right there under "Damage Per Attack". Attacks get the Strength modifier added(if the monster has one) unless otherwise stated. If a creature doesn't have a Strength bonus, no damage bonus will be listed. If they do, it is listed parenthetically after the base damage. For example, see the Baatezu, Cornugon entry. A Cornugon will either attack by claw/claw/bite/tail or it will attack with a weapon/tail. Either way, every attack gets a +6 damage bonus to every one of those attacks due to its 18/00 Strength. Such Strength bonuses should be used in the case of unarmed combat(i.e. grappling, etc.) as well. Not all of the monster entries make it all that obvious that the Strength bonuses are to be used, but you do.

    2E giants are rather rude grapplers. Why fight a 12th level fighter with the awesome sword to the death when a giant can just grab him and chuck him off of an icy precipice or into a pool of lava? Or, just grab a PC and use them as a bludgeon on other PCs(damage to BOTH on a successful hit). G 1-3 is a rather rude series of adventures under 2E rules(if one just converts it straight over), if the DM makes even the slightest effort to have the the giants fight to their full capabilities.

    And don't forget dragons. They are strong too, and can Grapple just as well as they can Snatch. Grapple and hurl, or grapple, hold in front of face and breathe(no breath save if you are a just DM). Utter brutality! Even if characters make their Dragon Fear saves, they should still be afraid, very afraid. Evil Grin
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Jan 17, 2012 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Jan 08, 2012 8:32 pm  

    Thanks, Ceb. I will look up those entries. I agree about the giant attack strategies and would likely use similar tactics as well. If I have any other questions about damage modifiers in the future, be warned that I will surely ask!

    -Lanthorn
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