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    Canonfire :: View topic - Regeneration
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Regeneration
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    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:08 pm  
    Regeneration

    According to my knowledge and recall, the only damage that cannot be regenerated is that caused from fire and/or acid.

    If so, does that mean a regenerating creature can restore hit points lost from, say, the reversal forms of healing spells (ex: cause serious wounds), or a wizard's Vampiric Touch spell?

    I don't recall seeing it mentioned they couldn't do so, but wanted others' perspectives on this.

    -Lanthorn
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:43 pm  

    I've seen things in 1e that would contradict fire/acid damage being unable to regenerate from, unless I missed something. The ring of regeneration specifies that the body can be regenerated from a part unless all tissue is totally destroyed with fire or acid, or "similar means." Trolls specify fire and acid, but if you look at the entry for ogre magi it doesn't specify any type of damage being unable to regenerate from. Not sure about 3e. In 4e, it can vary with damage type. Most undead who can regenerate can't regenerate from radiant damage. Well, actually regeneration works differently. When you take damage from the specified type of damage you just can't regenerate until the end of your next turn. Much easier to deal with than trying to track how much of what type of damage you took.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:40 am  

    Also, retarded plot-device damage cannot be regenerated. *coughs*11th Doctor*coughs*
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:11 pm  

    I imagine Vile damage could not be regenerated, but have no canon rules reference to justify that opinion. It's just that - an opinion. Cool

    SirXaris
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    Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:27 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Also, retarded plot-device damage cannot be regenerated. *coughs*11th Doctor*coughs*


    You, more than anyone makes me with there was a "like" button on here. Happy
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:14 am  

    I did note in the 2e PH that characters with exceedingly high Con scores can regenerate, but not damage caused by acid and/or fire. Maybe that is where I saw it...

    Can anyone else locate specifics about regeneration...ie, what damage CAN and CANNOT be regenerated?

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sun Nov 20, 2011 10:38 pm  

    Damage from fire, acid, and magical effects similar to that of a sword of wounding cannot be regenerated. There is also another instance:
    Quote:
    Types of Grenade-Like Missiles

    Holy Water affects most forms of undead and creatures from the lower planes. It has no effect against a creature in gaseous form or undead without material form.
    Unholy water (essentially holy water used by evil priests) affects paladins, creatures whose purpose is to defend good (lammasu, shedu, etc.), and creatures and beings from the upper planes.
    Holy (or unholy) water affects creatures as does acid, causing damage that cannot be regenerated but must be healed normally.

    So, watch out Mr. Paladin. Laughing Also, no regeneration from hit point loss due to level loss. So far as I recall, unless otherwise stated in an item's/creature's/spell's rules, every other form of damage can be regenerated.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:01 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:07 pm  

    From the Player's Handbook Glossary, 3.5e:

    "regeneration: ...Regeneration does not alter conditions that do not deal damage in hit points, such as poison and disintegration."

    From the Octopus Tree entry in the Fiend Folio, 3.5e:

    "Attack forms that don't deal hit point damage ignore regeneration, and an octopus tree does not restore hit points lost from starvation, thirst, or suffocation."

    You probably knew that first part about dealing hit point damage, but that last part about damage dealt via starvation, thirst, or suffocation might be new to you. I'm sure I've read similar entries elsewhere, but can't seem to find any at the moment.

    SirXaris
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    Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:00 pm  

    Another way to prevent it from being regenerated is to make it conditional.

    For example, creatures that have regeneration that still require food and water (for example, aren't outsiders) can still be starved to death, or die of thirst. Neither of those types of damage can be healed normally until the creature eats or is treated for dehydration. Nothing that relies on food and water. But, this discludes things like fey, or often planar creatures, undead, etc.

    So, even a troll could die - eventually - if they were starved long enough. Once they take nonlethal damage and become fatigued, they start taking real damage, and they're screwed.

    [Edit: Damn it ... Sir Xaris pointed it out too! I got ninja'd! ... by six hours!)
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    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:15 am  

    I know it's been a while since the last posting on this thread, but I recently stumbled upon an entry in Spells and Magic that makes me think that spells such as Vampiric Touch cannot be regenerated.

    There is a 6th lvl mage spell called Trollish Fortitude and it conveys several powers upon the wizard, including the ability to heal 3 hp/ round, just like an actual troll. In fact, the material component is part of a troll's heart. At any rate, the spell description explicitly states that damage caused by fire and acid AND level draining, including the effects of Vampiric Touch and similar spells, cannot be regenerated.

    That mentioned, I am under the impression that trolls, and perhaps other regenerators, cannot heal damage caused by these spells, too.

    Just a thought.

    -Lanthorn
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:47 pm  

    I would consider that a limitation of the trollish fortitude spell rather than a limitation of regenerative abilities, seeing as..,

    "The creature originally losing hit points through
    this spell [vampiric touch] can regain them by magical or normal healing."


    Yes, looking at the trollish fortitude spell, it has all sorts of limitations that normal regenerating creatures do not, so I would work things out as above. A ring of regeneration, the entry of which lays out most of the basics (other than for draining type effects), is therefore far more powerful than a trollish fortitude spell.

    Also, damage from reverse healing spells can be regenerated. Lastly, note the following in the ring of regeneration entry:

    "(If death was caused by poison, however, a saving throw must be
    successfully rolled or the wearer dies again from the poison still in his system.)"


    ...and so you keep rolling that poison save until it is successful, and the creature recovers.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:59 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    ...and so you keep rolling that poison save until it is successful, and the creature recovers.


    Lol! You cheating rules-lawyer! Razz

    SirXaris
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:10 pm  

    Regeneration vs. poison really works that way. If something with regeneration fails a save vs. poison and "dies", when the regeneration effect kicks in they get a save vs. poison again. If that save is failed, they "die" again. Then the regeneration effect will eventually kick in again, and another save vs. poison is made. Rinse and repeat. Eventually the regenerating creature's system will counteract the poison and the creature will "return" to life, if they aren't properly destroyed by fire, acid, etc. before then. The ring of regeneration is rather slow, only giving its benefit once per turn, so one save vs. poison every turn. Beware of the trolls though, as they get a save vs. poison every round. Regeneration is very powerful.

    And "rules lawyering" is interpreting rules to one's advantage, not necessarily to clear anything up. Wink
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    GreySage

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    Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:44 pm  

    Fellows,

    It is my understanding that draining-type spells like Vampiric Touch and the recently added Life Drain priest spell from the Complete Guide to Necromancers do not permit regeneration, but wounding-type spells such as the reversal forms of healing do permit it.

    I will continue to research, but that is my impression at the very least.

    -Lanthorn
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    Mon Mar 26, 2012 5:21 pm  
    Regeneration

    That is, in fact, the way that it ended up working in 3rd Edition. ... and also continued forth into the Pathfinder RPG.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 1:36 am  

    The life drain spell is not a great example, as it doesn't really go into much detail on what it does. It drains "life force" in the form of hit points, but we also know that the drain is not permanent, nor does it require magical healing to counteract. What we can assume is that the life fore is "damaged", but is not obliterated or even temporarily suppressed, and therefore it can be healed. As normal healing is enough to heal such damage apparently, regeneration should work too.

    It is up to you whether or not some or all draining effects allow for regeneration. Hit points lost due to level drains cannot cannot be regenerated of course, as that is a permanent draining (i.e. you can't regenerate what is no longer there), though any extraneous damage (such as the basic damage of a vampire's clubbing fist, or the sword damage from a sword life stealing) can. The same would be true for enervation, as, even though that effect is temporary, it makes hit points from suppressed Hit Dice temporarily "not there" to regenerate for its duration. Vampiric touch is specifically subject to normal healing, and for a naturally regenerating creature, regeneration is its normal healing, and if natural regeneration works then magical regeneration should work too.

    If what you really want is a simple, cut-and-dried way of deciding things, you could very purposely choose to limit regeneration only to attacks/spells that cause literal physical damage (the reverse healing spells literally create physical wounds on the target, so they would apply for regeneration purposes). Then, with regard to any attacks/spells, you need only classify them as either physically damaging (i.e. they CAN be regenerated) or non-physically damaging (i.e. they can NOT be regenerated), and there you have it.
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    GreySage

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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 3:31 pm  

    Gents, thank you much for your input! I will kick this around and continue to delve into my many tomes for any clarity on the issue, if it is to be had at all.

    obliged,

    Lanthorn
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    Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:28 pm  

    If I may add:
    Regeneration, as with trolls, is a wholly natural thing. The reason that regeneration cannot regenerate lost hit points caused by fire and acid is that the damage caused leaves the skin dead. The books never explicitly say the heat at which fire from a fireball or a burning hands spell burns at, but it is safe to assume that it is hot to kill a normal man (With about 1-4 hit points). Acid is corrosive enough to melt magical items, so it is strong enough to destroy skin.

    Because of this, regeneration, a biological capability, cannot revive dead skin. Magical necromantic spells are needed for this. Spells like cause serious wounds (CSW) or vampiric touch are unclear on this matter of if it kills skin like fire or acid. CSW arguably does several types of damage, but it does not lead to the total damaging of a limb like fire can. Thus, the effects could be considered minor enough for a natural ability like regeneration to fix.

    However, a vampiric touch drains the life energy of a creature. I would not say that this is something that can be regenerated through a natural ability. It is a judgement call, and your decision though.
    Paladin

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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:12 am  

    Kestral,
    Thanks for chiming in... all perspectives are always welcome... be sure to introduce your self here
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewforum&f=21

    and feel welcome to join in on Thursday nights Greytalks

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    Wed Mar 28, 2012 9:48 pm  

    I believe Kestral makes some very nice points and am inclined to agree with him.

    However, I believe as a dungeon master the most critical gaming concept is that of the flow of your game. Keeping seperate hitpoint totals for regeneratable damage and non-regeneratble damage can be cumbersome, especially duing larger battles. I personally just allow all damage to be regeneratable.

    House Rules > Book Rules.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:40 pm  

    Reviving old thread. Now it's to what my dad calls the 'Nut-Cutting Time" on this matter. Shocked Figuratively speaking, guys, figuratively. Laughing

    Ok, I have reread this entire thread from start to finish. I am under the impression that any type of wounding spells (reversal of healing) as well as necromantic spells such as the wizard Vampiric Touch and its priestly equivalent, Life Drain can be regenerated.

    Here's the reason for all this trouble:

    A force loyal to the Old One (I have dubbed them "Iuzians"), including both mages and priests, have a troll (Charmed) in their service. However, after a recent battle with their enemies, the Good Guys (who lost, by the way), the Iuzians are pretty smashed up and need some serious healing. However, they cannot cast curative magicks b/c the Old One only grants reversal forms of this sphere (I am OK with this). The only way the Iuzian spell-casters can 'heal' damage is to steal the life force energies of living beings. Evil Grin

    Enter the troll. I am going to have them cage/imprison the troll (shaping rock and stone to do it) and use its life force to bolster and heal their own. As the troll is a regenerating creature, it will restore any lost hit points rather quickly, only to have them stolen and 'sucked away' by the priests and mages later on as needed. The troll now becomes a 'living battery' of positive energy for them to drain in order to restore their own life forces. Evil, cunning, and intelligent if you ask me. Evil Grin The troll is more useful to them for its regenerative powers than as a Charmed (now completely broken!) bodyguard; they have many undead minions for that now, including all the dead NPCs.

    Of course, if that troll ever busts free of its stony confinement, guess who it is gonna attack with savage abandon...

    -Lanthorn the Wicked
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:15 pm  

    Very clever, and very evil. Oh, I very much like every single bit of that post- especially the last bit. Evil Grin
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Nov 25, 2012 2:23 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:44 pm  

    High accolades from the Purple Lightning indeed! Happy
    Thank you, sir, thank you! Evil Grin

    Now, if the PCs only catch wind of this vile plot, perhaps they will free the troll to wreck havoc on its tormentors! Who'd've thunk that a troll would become a willing ally of good characters?! Cool

    -Lanthorn
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