Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - Rangers...meh
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition
    Rangers...meh
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:22 am  
    Rangers...meh

    So, is it me, or do Rangers kinda suck? One of my players is a die hard ranger - he chooses that class in every game that allows it. In our current campaign, he's a 1st level Ranger of the Gnarley Forest. But what, exactly, does that get him? He's essentially a weak fighter with some utility skills that only apply outdoors and in limited armor. Once we leave the wilderness, he's even more limited - unless he switches his armor and picks up a shield. Sure, he can use 2 weapons, but so can anyone with sufficient Dex or the Two-Weapon proficiency from Player's Option: Combat and Tactics. So, I'm a little stumped on their edge. Can any of you rangers out there set me straight? What is the niche for the ranger?
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1358
    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:01 am  
    Re: Rangers...meh

    nerdcav wrote:
    So, is it me, or do Rangers kinda suck? One of my players is a die hard ranger - he chooses that class in every game that allows it. In our current campaign, he's a 1st level Ranger of the Gnarley Forest. But what, exactly, does that get him? He's essentially a weak fighter with some utility skills that only apply outdoors and in limited armor. Once we leave the wilderness, he's even more limited - unless he switches his armor and picks up a shield. Sure, he can use 2 weapons, but so can anyone with sufficient Dex or the Two-Weapon proficiency from Player's Option: Combat and Tactics. So, I'm a little stumped on their edge. Can any of you rangers out there set me straight? What is the niche for the ranger?


    Outdoors. Razz

    I assume it was the ranger who could follow the trail of the kidnapped child that your PCs rescued, right?

    This is one of the reasons I like D&D 3.5. The skills and feats thing gives most ranger a lot of advatages in general situations (Spot, Listen, Move Silently, Hide).

    EDIT: But in C&T, other classes (other tahn Thieves/Rogues) had to blow a proficiency slot on that. The Ranger gets it gratis.


    Last edited by jamesdglick on Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:20 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:06 am  

    Shocked HERESY!!!

    -Lanthorn, RANGER LOVER!
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 25, 2012 10:31 am  

    OK, now that I got that out, let me articulate my counterpoint (this is LONG):

    Rangers have always been one of my favorite classes (check out my thread about "Favorite Classes" from last summer/fall), alongside with mages and druids. I am a high school teacher of the life sciences, including both biology and zoology, so any class that taps into these disciplines immediately draws my interest.

    I play 2e rangers, have the Complete Book of Rangers, and use all the Options books, too. I would, in no way, consider rangers 'to suck.' They have skills that are, quite literally, invaluable to any party, especially if your adventures take you outdoors, as most will. True, they are more limited in dungeon and underground settings, but no more or less than any other character class, unless you are playing a character specifically tailor made for a subterranean setting (or a dwarf or gnome).

    Nevertheless, rangers have a broad range of useful skills. In addition to a fighter's THACO and hp (which is NICE), they get to use two weapons rather adeptly (in my house rules, I allow Dex bonuses, modified by -2/-4 based on weapon size) and with reduced penalties, their tracking abilities kicks sphincter, their stealth skills are pretty good (again, modify by Dex...and armor choice), they are damned hard to surprise, they can attempt to 'win over' or pacify animals (comes in handy with startled pack animals, hungry predators, you name it), they are murder on their 'species enemy,' and at higher lvls, they cast clerical spells! Next to the paladin, the ranger is perhaps the 'strongest' fighter subclass with a vast array of utility skills and abilities.

    If you allow the Options books in your game, the abilities of the ranger broaden even more, and some of the limitations can lessen, if you are willing to pay up with the CP's. Your ranger can weapon specialize. Your ranger might be able to cast spells at a lower level. Maybe now the ranger can backstab like a thief (great with those stealth skills). There's a wide list from which to choose. Rangers also have great access to various invaluable proficiencies, crossing over between clerics and fighters.

    No, I personally do not believe that rangers suck. Happy In fact, I think they are, in most cases, superior to 'mere' fighters. True, they might not be as murderous in a toe-to-toe fight as most warriors, but, to me, a ranger player is multi-faceted, thinking, crafty, perceptive, and intuitive to the broader picture. A ranger player uses wits and guile with a fighter's abilities to back him/her up when push comes to shove.

    My first character, Dirk Crowwood (and friend to my "Lanthorn" elven bladesinger) was a half-elf ranger from the Welkwood. I've played that character since high school. He is now only 7th level, but one of my ultimate favorites. I ran him through The Village of Hommlet, as a 1st lvl PC (along with "Lanthorn" and a female half-elven bard), and they all barely survived. Then Dirk and his friends ran afoul the dreaded Slave Lords, and my DM ran them through the whole A series (in a mixed mash order), and again, we barely survived. Dirk has held his own, even become the party leader. He's since switched over to a new DM since then, and is undergoing a whole new series of trials and (mis?)adventures.

    But I love rangers, and tip my hat to your player who prefers to play them. Of course, I think it is always good for players (and DM's!) to broaden their skill sets and try out new combinations of races and classes. So perhaps encourage your 'ranger player' to diversify by, say, playing a druid as a new alternative.

    Hope I have redeemed rangers in your eyes, Nerdcav. Don't forget. Aragorn himself was a Ranger, and he became King. Happy

    -Lanthorn, Ranger Player, Friend, Advocate


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:24 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:30 am  

    I have to say, first, that Rangers are iconic characters (Aragorn being the epitome), which is a strong appeal to many players by itself. Playing a character like Aragorn, Robin Hood, or any other fictitious fighter-type character that doesn't wear heavy armor, isn't a barbarian, and isn't a Thief means that you use the Ranger class as your base.

    In one sense, Rangers are Jacks-of-All-Trades as they share skills from several other classes. They do not possess the best defense in toe-to-toe combat as they don't wear heavy armor. They aren't as stealthy as Thieves, but they can act as a second, or back-up, scout for a party. They aren't serious spellcasters, but they can throw out a surprise to amplify their fighting ability now and then. And, they make excellent ranged fighters.

    Playing a Ranger just requires that the player recognize the broad range of skills the character has instead of simply trying to play him like a fighter with poor armor.

    SirXaris
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:11 pm  

    Rangers are a solid class. The only limitations to a class is the limitations you place on it. It's obvious to your player that rangers are the ultimate class. I for one like many different classes for many different reasons. You could make the arguments for the fighter over all other melee classes so I think it comes down to a matter of preference in the end.

    Later

    Argon
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1358
    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:41 am  

    Hmmm...

    The premise is sort of min-maxing power gamer, is it not? Razz
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:26 am  

    I wanted to give a little feedback and to soften my original claim. Rangers do not suck. I understand that now - thank you Lanthorn Wink. But, in combat, they don't really stand out. And in dungeons, like the one I am about to send my players into for the next several months, that's where the rubber meets the road.

    What I want is to help my players shine - to provide those moments where they can really rise to the occasion and put their particular skills and talents to use. While I have made opportunities for the ranger already - tracking a kidnapped child, scouting a trail ahead, calming an alpha horse in order to lead a recovered herd back to Hommlet - I'm at a loss at what to do once we enter the Temple of Elemental Evil.

    In the temple dungeons, his HiS/MS and tracking will be null and void and all encounters will be with monsters and humanoids. The one major bonus he will have is his enmity vs Bugbears, which I have orchestrated by having bugbears hound him and his friends in his origin quest. I'm not really talking min/maxing, but I am looking to see if there are non RP bonuses that I am overlooking.
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
    Posts: 1358
    From: Tennessee, between Ft. Campbell & APSU

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:09 am  

    nerdcav wrote:
    ...But, in combat, they don't really stand out. And in dungeons, like the one I am about to send my players into for the next several months, that's where the rubber meets the road...


    -IIRC, a Ranger is still better [EDIT: in combat] than a Thief, Bard, or Wizards et al (or is it Magic User in AD&D 2?). I can't remember if a Ranger's attack bonus is better than a Cleric's or Druid's or not.

    nerdcav wrote:
    ... I'm at a loss at what to do once we enter the Temple of Elemental Evil...


    -IIRC, in the lower levels, there are gates which can take (or send) the party to other planes, where his skills might be needed to help them survive. I don't remember the details, except their are other waiting to be there, including a former citizen of Nulb...

    nerdcav wrote:
    ... In the temple dungeons, his HiS/MS and tracking will be null and void and all encounters will be with monsters and humanoids...


    -I forget--is the HS/MS for an AD&D 2 Ranger only good in outdoor settings?

    One more reason to make the jump to D&D 3.5. Wink

    nerdcav wrote:
    ... The one major bonus he will have is his enmity vs Bugbears, which I have orchestrated by having bugbears hound him and his friends in his origin quest...


    -And there's that.

    Geez. What more do you need?

    nerdcav wrote:
    ... I'm not really talking min/maxing, but I am looking to see if there are non RP bonuses that I am overlooking.


    -That was more a dig at Argon, the Paladin of Role Playing. Razz Wink


    Last edited by jamesdglick on Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:05 am  

    Nerdcav,

    It is true that the ranger will be 'out of his element' while dungeon crawling. But don't count him out of the game yet! The skills of the ranger are not completely diminished, though they are indeed limited.

    Tracking is possible in a dungeon setting, but there are associated penalties. However, spoor is still left behind, however subtle. Use the modifiers given in your Player's Handbook or Options: Skills & Powers. The stealth abilities are not removed underground (unless I missed that memo), though, they, too, could be reduced, or perhaps even enhanced, given certain circumstances. Your ranger PC will still be the stealthiest character, barring the presence of a thief. He will be the hardest to surprise. That won't change. His two-weapon skills and fighter THACO and decent hit points are not handicapped.

    Your player will just have to adapt to his new, 'alien' surroundings. This will test the mettle of both the player and his character. Don't count him out yet...

    I played a ranger who went underground a few times, even though he HATED it (mild claustrophobia). He managed, he persisted, he survived.

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:39 pm  

    Lanthorn, I know you're going to stroke out over this, but I don't really like the Skills and Powers system. I think it too radically restructures the rule-set of 2E. I might grab an option or two from it, but overall I keep my hands off of it. I will, however, delve back into it to see how it addresses Ranger skills outside of the wilderness setting.
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:45 pm  

    Shocked (clutches heart)

    Whew, that was a close one!

    OK, now that passed... you can also check out the 2e PH, or if you have a copy of it, even Unearthed Arcana, as that book has an extensive laundry list of tracking rules and modifiers.

    Also, check out The Complete Book of Rangers, if you can. More information resides therein about skills, abilities, etc.

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:55 pm  

    Lol - glad you survived Lanthorn. As for HiS/MS - per the PH "When attempting these actions in non natural surroundings (a musty crypt or city streets) chance of success is halved." It's a bit steep - but you're right - it's still allowed. I agree that tracking could still be completely viable, but at severe disadvantages - essentially tracking over stone in low light for dungeons.
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:16 pm  

    I have a cleric of Pelor on stand-by when reading any more Nerdcav replies to this thread... Wink

    Yeah, thought they could still use those abilities.

    Keep in mind that dungeons, though normally constructed of stone, are not devoid of debris. Monsters and people track dirt, dust, mud, blood, bits and pieces of equipment, hair, etc. Subtle clues abound, if you are keen to noticing them.

    FYI: Blessed Watchfulness (see associated thread) is very useful to enhance character senses, including trackers!

    Also, even though your campaign primarily deals with the underground setting (now), it won't always, I am sure. Then the ranger can truly come back into his own! Since your player is role-playing a Gnarley Ranger, it makes complete and logical sense that he would be involved in any plotline that pertains to the dreaded ToEE.

    -Lanthorn, Condition Stabilized, for now...


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:14 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:21 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Also, even though your campaign primarily deals with the underground setting (now), it won't always, I am sure. Then the ranger can truly come back into his own! Since your player is role-playing a Gnarley Ranger, it makes complete and logical sense that he would be involved in any plotline that pertains to the dreaded ToEE.


    I agree with this completely. His relationship with the rangers will come to bear most critically if the evil of the temple begins to squeeze an embargo around Hommlett, bringing pain and misery unless they can find a way to fend off the raiders or get a message through to Vebobonc or Furyondy.
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 1:27 pm  

    Excellent planning on your part, DM. Smile

    If you have it (I know I keep saying that, but it's really true), From the Ashes boxed set is a very handy (I'd say crucial) tool for you with this adventure. It has a very detailed map and sourceguide for the Gnarley Forest with such important sites as Beltander, Corustaith, and the like. It also grants good information about the rangers themselves. Check it out.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
    Posts: 2695
    From: LG Dyvers

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:06 pm  

    Okay, here are a few suggestions.

    The Ranger is, generally, the best archer in the game. He is also the sneakiest (other than a Thief) as long as he keeps to light armor. So, your Ranger character should volunteer to be the scout for the party. You can set up some scenarios where he peaks around a corner and sees some bad guys engaged in a heated argument over a potion vial, scroll, or other important item. The Ranger could make a called shot with surprise to shatter the potion vial with a well-aimed shot, set the scroll on fire with a flaming arrow, etc.

    You may want to look into defensive fighting rules. I believe it was the 1st Ed. Unearthed Arcana that first introduced them in the Cavalier entry. While wielding two weapons, the Ranger could use one as a purely defensive weapon, adding to his AC, while making an ocassional attack with the other.

    Thirdly, there are quite a few bugbears in the ToEE, so he will be able to use his Favored Enemy bonuses. Smile

    I can't remember any such rooms in the module, but you may want to alter the map to include a few rooms where lightness and dexterity are required to successfully cross or acquire an item, etc. Rooms like this are good opportunities for the Ranger's specific class traits to shine.

    Oh, and there are quite a few outdoor encounters in Nulb and the surrounding countryside before the party actually delves below the Temple itself.

    SirXaris
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:20 pm  

    @SirXaris - I agree that a Ranger should make an excellent scout - but does he? The ToEE suggests the level range for the entire module is 1-8. At level 8, the unmodified HiS/MS of a human ranger (my player's race) is 49%/62%. His Dex is 17, so that brings us to 54%/67%. Now let's apply the -20% penalty for wearing light armor and cut the sum in half for being indoors: 17%/23% - not even a 1 in 4 chance of success at the top suggested level. We have a thief, the ranger doesn't get the job.

    And I don't see where, in 2E, the ranger gets any special modifications for archery - a specialized fighter would be better. In fact, even if I use the Expertise option from Combat and Tactics (which I do), that option specifically prohibits increased rate of fire for bows.

    This is where I start to get frustrated with the class - his hands seem tied in areas he's most needed. In terms of RP, he's a great, fun class - in the field he's a weak fighter. Sure, he's got better hit rates than the cleric, mage and thief, but they can do stuff that more than makes up for that. Some say that the fighter class suffers in comparison to other classes at later levels - I say the ranger starts suffering and doesn't grow out of it. Just my 2c.
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:41 pm  

    Clarification on stealth abilities: rangers do NOT get a penalty (as far as I know) to hide in shadows and move silently if they wear studded leather or lighter armor! Penalize them only if they wear chain or heavier armor. Furthermore, they can fight with two weapons without penalty, as well, if wearing studded or lighter armor.

    Also...here's a house rule I use you may want to consider (and anyone else with my line of reasoning). I allow Dex bonuses (and penalties) for melee weapons as well as ranged weapons! It makes NO sense to me that a person gets a bonus to hit with a crossbow, hurled axe or spear, or shooting a bow...and then gets JACK #$%^ for a high Dex score when unsheathing a blade or any other melee weapon. In fact, I consider it totally counterintuitve, and flawed reasoning.

    Ever see Bruce Lee (or Jackie Chan) fighting? Do we agree they have a high Dex score with tumbling? With kicks and punches and blocks? Shouldn't that translate over to a Dex bonus for 'to hit' as well?

    What about a swashbuckling warrior like a Musketeer? Shouldn't they likewise enjoy a bonus to hit due to quick reflexes, and pinpoint accuracy?

    How about those stunt actors for the Jedi lightsaber battles???

    YES, in a nutshell?

    Who is deadlier in a hand-to-hand fight? A quick, lightning fast person who can smack you up, down, left, right, with blurring precision...or the HUGE brute with slower reflexes? True, the brute may KILL you outright with one (lucky?) hit...but Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee will strike you so many times you don't know what'll hit you...and then it's TOO LATE.

    I allow ALL characters with high Dex scores to enjoy 'to hit' bonuses for melee combat, TOO. From a logical and scientific (and anatomical) sense, it makes perfect sense. Yes, I am fairly staunch on this point. In the end, your game, your rules, but it balances the field a bit with characters with a high Dex score (not just rangers, but thieves, too, and clerics, and mages, EVERYONE). Not all fighters are strong. I'd take the stance that the deadliest warrior (ever see that show?!) is the FAST and ACCURATE warrior!

    -Lanthorn
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 25, 2012
    Posts: 106
    From: Virginia

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 6:50 pm  

    You'd like 3.5 Lanthorn <ducks> Wink

    The ability you're talking about is a feat called Weapon Finesse. "With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls."

    Btw - The HiS/MS penalty for light armor was listed in the Skills and Powers book, so I'm fine with dropping it. Still, pretty slim chances.

    In any case, my ranger is happy, so I don't know why I'm complaining.
    _________________
    No place is safe, only safer.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
    Posts: 1234
    From: New Jersey

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:32 pm  

    Nerdcav,

    You finally hit the nail on the head. Your ranger is happy thats all that matters. Yes I am a barbarian of roleplaying a paladin will treat you nicer then I.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
    Posts: 2470
    From: SW WA state (Highvale)

    Send private message
    Thu Aug 02, 2012 7:37 pm  

    nerdcav wrote:
    You'd like 3.5 Lanthorn <ducks> Wink


    Heresy! but I like you, Nerdcav, so I'll let that blasphemous statement pass. Wink

    Argon's got a great point (about a happy ranger player, though he typically is full of them).

    FYI: I allow characters BOTH a Strength and Dexterity bonus to melee combat if their scores warrant it.

    -Lanthorn
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- AD&D 2nd Edition All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.46 Seconds