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    Canonfire :: View topic - Rhymers of Blackmoor
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    Rhymers of Blackmoor
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:11 pm  
    Rhymers of Blackmoor

    I recently stumbled onto a Grehawk regional feet [Blackmoorian Rhymes] in Dragon #315 that references the Rhymers of Blackmoor. Is there a canon source for this group, other than this feat?
    CF Admin

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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 6:21 pm  

    Lacking access to my books (in storage), I can't check, but I recall that entry as relating to a bardic / druidic Old Faith-esque tradition.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 7:57 pm  

    The Encyclopedia Greyhawkia has an entry for the Rhymers of the Blackfens [Dance With Demons, pg. 26]. The entry reads:

    "The fabled Rhymers of the Blackfens, those northern mages who with kanteel and verse wrought world-shaking dweomers, might exceed the troubador's own ability in magic. On the other hand, it was in that land of snow and ice that Gellor had won his own kanteel and brought back great spells for his own repertoire. Gord doubted that any of the great druidic bards would care to challenge the one-eyed troubador to a challenge of skill in that vein. Perhaps Gellor was as great as any man or elf, then, when it came to the weaving of spells by music and verse."

    I could see Gygax having to change Blackmoor/Gloomfens to Blackfens in order to not have to worry about copyright violations or something, and then Paizo going ahead and using the intended name in their Dragon article when they weren't under the same restrictions.

    NOW I really want to know more about these MAGES who wove spells by music and verse! Is this where Heward learned his stuff, or why Otto has such an interest in the connection between music and magic? Happy
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jul 11, 2012 10:10 pm  

    What the heck is a kanteel? I googled it and the only thing that came up was it was Dutch for a merlon. Oops, never mind. I think he meant a kantele. It's a Finnish instrument, so in this case that sort of makes sense.
    GreySage

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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:43 am  

    IronGolem wrote:

    NOW I really want to know more about these MAGES who wove spells by music and verse! Is this where Heward learned his stuff, or why Otto has such an interest in the connection between music and magic? Happy


    I think it is a secret reference to JohnTom, the Spellsinger. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:34 pm  

    Thanks for the productive research IronGolem. For Gygax, I understand that "the weaving of spells by music and verse" was represented by AD&D 1e bards.

    I've not followed their permutations carefully but recall a revision in an early Dragon or The Dragon magazine.

    Also, Paul Stormberg published an excellent article on the subject in the Oerth Journal volume II, issue 15 -- [b[By Sword and Song: Notes on the Old Faith Bards of the Flanaess[/b] and accompanied by his The Nature of Druids in the Flanaess: the Old Faith.

    Brief descriptions are available http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=389, and the issue can be downloaded http://www.oerthjournal.com/oerthjournals/OJ_15.pdf.

    In 3xE, I recall there was a prestige class that attempted to approximate the old bard character class, incorporating some druid-esque features. I recall thinking it was a nice idea but limited structurally from fully representing the Old Faith / Old Lore bard.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:31 am  

    This is a pretty straightforward reference to the song magic practiced in the Kalevala by heroes such as Vainamoinen (famously the inventor of the kantele) and Lemminkainen.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:22 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    This is a pretty straightforward reference to the song magic practiced in the Kalevala by heroes such as Vainamoinen (famously the inventor of the kantele) and Lemminkainen.


    Both of whom featured in the Deities and Demigods Finnish mythos. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 10:15 am  

    Yeah, that'd be my first reference if I were creating high-level Rhymer of Blackmoor NPCs.

    I'd also look at the story "Wall of Serpents" by Fletcher Pratt and L. Sprague de Camp, part of the Enchanter series mentioned in the 1st edition DMG's list of inspirational works. And the Kalevala itself.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:19 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    For Gygax, I understand that "the weaving of spells by music and verse" was represented by AD&D 1e bards.


    I never really thought of bards (any edition) as being the makers of "world-shaking dweomers", though. Perhaps Gord just doesn't know much about magic at that point in the series, and mistakenly refers to bards as mages. Or, perhaps the Rhymers of Blackmoor are continuations of the usual bard, who don't stop advancing at 23rd level with 5th level spells [1e].
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:20 pm  

    "In the bleak swamps of Blackmoor, I reside."
    "Incantations of old faiths are locked within."
    "Some of purity, others of sin."
    "Those of the Blackfen's, will often chide."
    "Beware the Rhymer's, songs and rites."
    "Sweet lyrical chantings are constantly sung."
    "Many a fool unwilling done."
    "Invade the Blackfen's, and you will be one."

    See I have the Feat!

    Laughing
    CF Admin

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    Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:49 pm  

    Hey IronGolem, reviewing the novel quotation again, I wonder whether the term "troubador" was a term of art for Gygax.

    Does anyone recall whether that indicated an unpublished home-brew class? If not, I'd follow rasgon's advice, and imagine a group of Flan quasi-deities or hero-deities (edit) based upon the Finnish mythos.

    If anyone has suggestions for how to represent Rhymers of Blackmoor in 3.5e or Pathfinder, I'd love to see them.


    Last edited by mtg on Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:08 am; edited 1 time in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:13 am  

    Coming from the Arnesonian angle of things, I can report that this is not a creation from the FFC.

    The Arnesonian game had Wokans, though, that were some sorts of proto-Druids/Bards.
    So, there is SOME info out there. Somewhere. Embarassed Smile

    The ideas from the thread are pretty cool, though!
    I shall enjoy stealing them! Smile
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:27 pm  

    Le Noir Faineant,

    Cut purse, sneak thief, turtledove, etc. Shocked

    Stealing other peoples ideas shameful simply shameful. Evil Grin

    What are you a fan of RPG games or something? Laughing

    All kidding aside take what you can for your game.

    Later

    Argon
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    Wed Aug 15, 2012 11:05 pm  

    We're having a discussion over at the CBI about Blackmoor in the Stone Age, and talk has been about what role bards (oral traditions of magic) have in more primitive societies.

    I think I will link this one there. Wink



    ...Or, quote it, and pretend the smart parts of the thread are my creation. Evil Grin

    Just for reference, the place where I will steal your IP: http://blackmoor.mystara.us/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2793

    You got to register there to read, though. Sad
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:07 am  

    Le Noir Faineant wrote:
    The Arnesonian game had Wokans, though, that were some sorts of proto-Druids/Bards.
    So, there is SOME info out there. Somewhere. Embarassed Smile

    The ideas from the thread are pretty cool, though!
    I shall enjoy stealing them! Smile


    Any talk on the etymology of "wokan?" Just interested. I tried goggling but came up with zip.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 16, 2012 8:30 am  

    I think it's a wordplay on "wiccan", actually.

    The name "wokan" is a surname from Germany, but apparently it derrives from an old word for "racketeer". So, it doesn't seem to make much sense.

    But then, I think this was a 3e addition to Blackmoor, and some of those were pretty random. Could be anything, really. Smile
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    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:27 am  

    Le Noir Faineant wrote:
    But then, I think this was a 3e addition to Blackmoor, and some of those were pretty random. Could be anything, really. Smile


    It comes from the latter era of basic (BECMI) D&D. In the Master's Set and the early Gazetteer series, non-human clerics or druids were known as shamans, and non-human magic-users were known as wicca (Master's DM Book, page 21).

    At around the time the Hollow World boxed set came out, TSR decided to change the way things were worded in the basic D&D game to avoid any reference to religions. This was explained by Bruce Heard in the Princess Ark letters column in Dragon #171:

    Bruce Heard wrote:
    Note: I observed that GAZ4 and many D&D game players commonly use the terms “religion” and “worship.” In order to avoid difficulties with certain people, it was recently decided these terms would no longer be used in D&D game products. Instead, we prefer such terms as “‘philosophy,” “precepts,” “patrons,” “guides,” “disciples,” “and “followers.” Of course, “gods” and “deities” are right out. You will notice this especially in upcoming products for the D&D game. As you may also recall, we changed the term “wicca” to “wokan/wokani” in the HOLLOW WORLD setting.


    The use of the term in the d20-era Blackmoor products seems to be a reference to the way the word was used in that era of D&D. As d20 Blackmoor also pulled several Immortals from the Hollow World set (or Wrath of the Immortals), they probably pulled the word at the same time.


    Last edited by rasgon on Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:43 am; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:43 am  

    I wondered if it might be derived from "wakan," which is Lakota for "power, spirit, etc...".
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:44 am  

    Quite possibly!
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:34 pm  

    Wow, that's a great find! Smile Another mystery solved. Smile
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