Greyhawk has saints. Some guy named Cuthbert. Except he's a god.
The Roman Catholic Church has a system for creating "saints." I think it safe to say that most gaming "saints" look to the Catholic model or focus on the mechanics of sainthood in the game without going into the whys and wherefores. I'm interested in the whys and wherefores.
Which GH religions do you think have "saints?" What function do they serve after they are "sainted?" Where do "saints" reside? Are they like a kind of "undead?" Can you "summon" a saint? Can you pray to a "saint" (one who is not also a god, that is) and what will you get for your trouble? Are all "saints" patrons of this or that?
Now in my campaign, the good aligned deities have saints and the evil ones have minions. I think that with the willingness to serve, LG deities would have plenty of souls ready to do their bidding. I mean let's face it, a Paladin devotes her whole life to a god, so why should it be any different in the afterlife? The same goes with evil. The evil cleric devoted his life to attaining goals that were in line with a dark power, so what better way to reward that person than by promising them more power if they continue to serve in the afterlife (heck, bad guys are greedy). Hmmm, maybe Dungeon could do an article on this?
In my Theocracy of the Pale campaign, I have several saints. One is analogous to St. Francis of Assisi, and is the founder of a monastic order based in Ogburg devoted to the worship of Pholtus through the study of his works.
The other saint that I've used in-game was St. Oghma, patron saint of the written word, which I shamelessly used as an excuse to give my players a diversion through Ex Libris, rather than thinking up some other use for the letters O-G-H-M-A-T-H-E-B-I-N-D-E-R, or sorting through the Internet Anagram Server results.
Not much original thought, though. The Theocracy supplies the best place to use traditional medieval Catholic ideas.
I'd suppose Rao, as god of peace, could have some martyr-style saints, and wasn't Mayaheine a venerated follower of Heironeous before she ascended to demi-god status? I'd be interested to hear people's ideas about saints of evil gods, though -- could be some cool stuff.
St. Bane and St. Kargoth of Dragon magazine fame come to mind. Also St Ferrante from the Bastion of Faith. I`m sure there are some more Saints in GH canon. Wasn`t there some obscure (demi) goddess too...
I would see them similar to proxies. In Dicefreaks language they could be humans (or others) with the Seraph or Cherubim template and analogous to Demon Lords or Princes. The good ones that is...
I think Canon Hazen, would qualify as a living saint for hte Flight of Fiends alone. That miraculous feat would more than likely qualify him. In my conversion of him to 3.5 D&D stats in fact I do make him a Saint.
I believe Mayaheinne was a Saint of Pelor raised to god(ess)hood. I'm curoius what the actual requirements for Sainthood would be. I think, and this is from the movie the Saint, that you have to perform 3 or 4 miracles.
Interesting responses. How do you all see saints developing?
By works? When you are good enough, a deity taps you and makes you a saint?
Via a church procedure? Is there a process of "beatification," "canonization" etc.? Or something like that? Wherein you are formerly recognized as a saint? (Intersting if the deity makes you a saint but your church refuses to believe it).
What do you do when you are a saint? Angels/Archons etc. don't appear frequently in GH. Less avatars. Can saints act more freely on behalf of their sponsor deities or is that violating the "non-interference pact?"
Well, it depends on what role you see for saints in the campaign.
At the basic level, saints exist as exemplars of the faith: ie "look at how this guy lived his life. You should try that, too." This sort of saint would arise from local veneration and later church recognition.
If you are looking at saints as interlocutors between the god and his followers or as some other sort of agent (the Dragon magazine article took this approach, IIRC), then you are looking at entities that are the creation of the god.
Both can exist in the campaign and the two groups wouldn't necessarily overlap (though they likely often would).
I'd say that the first type definitely exists. I'm not so sure about the second sort making a lot of sense. How many supramortal agents is it useful/plausible for the gaggle of divinities in GH to have? Not alot, I'd think.
I've thought about Saints a bit in my campaign. As Greyhawk has a medieval feel to it I felt tht Saints in the religions would add to this feel. What I decided to do was take some of the hero deities and quasi-deities and give them the title of Saint. A lot of people will probabaly hate this idea but for me it just gave my cosmology more of the feel I wanted. This only applies to hero-deities associated with an established deity but in some cases I threw canon to the wind and played around with them to create something I wanted. Unsurprisingly my mind has just gone blank to provide an example...typical.
As for beatification...you can eithe rbe sainted through martyrdon i think - this is much easier and you only need to have performed a few minor miracles to become a saint. To be a living saint you need to have performed a great miracle or two. So maybe Canon Hazen would count - although he was using an artifact. I think evil deities should have saints as well. I think in the Iron Kingdoms setting they call the Scions which is quite a nice title i think.
Those saints in my game who were hero-deities - tend to be patron saints as they have a small portfolio.
I believe that there is a Saint template for version 3.5 in the Book of Exalted Deeds and also a Risen Martyr prestige class which is worth checking out.
When my memory returns I'll give a few examples of who some of my patron saints are if anyone is interested?
It seems like the Greytalk archive is an invalueable resource. The following post is from Gary Holian, "Of Death Knights and Saints," posted by psmedger@canonfire.com on 17/06/2004 15:30:31.
Rob Douglas wrote:
> As others have mentioned, Kargoth was not set in Greyhawk specifically,
> but he so inflamed our collective imaginations that many of us put him
> there. I was glad to hear that the author intended him to be in
> Greyhawk.
>
> On a related note, another Saint from that article (in Dragon #79) has
> been "canonized" ;) in Greyhawk - Saint Ceril the Relentless is now a
> founding member of the Lords of the Gloaming, a secretive order of
> Pholtus
> knights and paladins. I can't remember the LGJ number - the second one
> with all the paladins of Greyhawk - in Dungeon.
>
> And don't forget the Warduke has become a Hierarch from the Horned
> Society.
> Just part of Erik's way of infusing our collective paths in the setting
> we all love.
Hey Guys,
I'm the author of the article in question (serialized in Dragons 290 and
291, I believe, with other tidbits posted on www.canonfire.com). I'm
pleased there is so much interest in the subject. It was certainly fun
to work on!
I can confirm what various greytalkers have already said. The "Death
Knights of Oerth" are definitely a synthesis of the original Fiend Folio
entry, Saintly Standards by the esteeemed Scott Bennie (Dragon 79, Best
of Dragon vol. IV), and my own work on the Greyhawk Setting (expanding
the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom and other orders and cults of
the Flanaess) going back nearly 20 years. While they might have become
iconic to the Dragonlance setting, they are clearly of older origin and
there's no reason Greyhawk can't tap on those resources as it was the
only published AD&D campaign at the time!
I believe we can derive alot of value by incorporating old threads into
new works, so as to pay homage to the old, while taking them to a whole
new level. That is what we have tried to do in some respects in the LGG
and in the articles which have followed in Polyhedron, Dragon, and
Dungeon. Call it "old school" if you like, there's nothing wrong with a
little throwback from time to time. Like the Maure Castle article in
Dungeon 112, we can't forget the work that built this game.
You can consider the whole article by Bennie, "canonized". I believe
all of the saints (which you can consider on par with quasi-deities for
the purposes of power) have been mentioned in recent works, save St.
Eleador, who is being saved for a special occasion. Here are some GH
notes about them:
St. Ceril the Relentless is over 250 years old and is one of the
founders of the Pale. After an early tragedy near the Troll Fens
destroyed his village, he eventually defeated his enemies and became the
young nation's defender and patron saint. While he no longer lives in
the Pale (though he occasionally walks the Prime Material Plane) he is a
member of the Lords of the Gloaming: an uber-powerful and secretive
group of clerics, paladins, and warriors dedicated to Pholtus. They
"stand between the darkness and the light" and fight primarily against
the encroachment of extraplanar chaos and evil in the material world.
St. Bane the Scourger is a follower of Pelor, the Sun God, and has a
cult within that church. He is a powerful Hero-Deity, like Kelanen, and
is close to achieving demigod status. He is patron saint of undead
hunting and has a widespread cult spanning most of the Flanaess (think
wannabe Van Helsings or would that be Van Richtens? ;-). Centuries ago,
he slew a witch-ghoul known as Khuul, a powerful servant of Orcus who
rose up in the northern barrens and wastes of the Flanaess and was
terrorizing the nomads there (this material can be tied in with the
Bloodstone Saga in the Greyhawk setting for those who would like to).
He is now primarily a wanderer of the Planes of Existence, though he
will materialize in the Flanaess, when the need is greatest. It is
believed he was once a member of the Whiteguard and still maintains an
alliance with that order. Rumors in supernatural circles in the
Flanaess, indicate that he may have recently slain Orcus himself.
St. Kargoth was a paladin in the Great Kingdom, circa the late 2nd
Century CY. He was one of the most puissant members of the famed order
of the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom (briefly mentioned in
GttWoGH 1983 p79). However, he turned traitor in a mad bargain with
Demogorgon that saw him, along with 13 damned compatriots (who were
transformed into the original "Death Knights", though only their master
was forewarned and willing), attempting to steal or destroy the Great
Seal of the Great Kingdom (an object known as the Orb of Sol) and
unleash a demonic horror on the land. The Demonic Horror (some claim
this was a vast "Abyssal Dreadnought") was defeated by the Knight
Protectors of the GK at great cost (including a good portional of the
royal family of Rax), whence began a long hunt for the traitors and
their leader. St. Kargoth (who has some importance within the church of
Hextor and to other Blackguard and Anti-Paladins) is now 450 years old,
and he had his material form driven from the Oerth more than two
centuries ago, but he still roams the planes and sometimes materializes
on Oerth. And yes, he is badass, meant to be nearly the equal of a Demon
Lord.
I will say no more on St. Eleador right now, save that he is a very
young and special saint that has a unique connection with the gods of
Greyhawk. He is not yet widely known in the Flanaess.
Finally, I would like to note, St. Benedor of the Ashen Hand (not
included in the original Bennie article, but my own creation) patron
saint of the order of the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom and St.
Kargoths sworn foe. He was blinded by the Orb of Sol and his hand was
seared by the artifact, which was in his possession for many centuries.
It granted him long life and the strength to oppose his enemies, though
he remained mortal. He disapppeared for a time and it was only recently
learned that he was raised to the ranks of the immortals and is now
believed to be a full demigod (portfolios: Valor, Self-Sacrifice,
Underdogs, Perserverance).
Well, those are some notes, for those who were wondering. It might be
fun to one day construct a module around this stuff.
I've thought about Saints a bit in my campaign. As Greyhawk has a medieval feel to it I felt tht Saints in the religions would add to this feel. What I decided to do was take some of the hero deities and quasi-deities and give them the title of Saint. A lot of people will probabaly hate this idea but for me it just gave my cosmology more of the feel I wanted. This only applies to hero-deities associated with an established deity but in some cases I threw canon to the wind and played around with them to create something I wanted. Unsurprisingly my mind has just gone blank to provide an example...typical.
As for beatification...you can eithe rbe sainted through martyrdon i think - this is much easier and you only need to have performed a few minor miracles to become a saint. To be a living saint you need to have performed a great miracle or two. So maybe Canon Hazen would count - although he was using an artifact. I think evil deities should have saints as well. I think in the Iron Kingdoms setting they call the Scions which is quite a nice title i think.
Those saints in my game who were hero-deities - tend to be patron saints as they have a small portfolio.
I believe that there is a Saint template for version 3.5 in the Book of Exalted Deeds and also a Risen Martyr prestige class which is worth checking out.
When my memory returns I'll give a few examples of who some of my patron saints are if anyone is interested?
Excellent post! Not the least because I agree that saints lend some of that "medieval feel."
I have also considered if the hero-deities weren't really another way of saying "saint." I really think this idea may have "legs."
I am still torn between a "divinely gifted" sainthood and a "church recognized" sainthood. I lean toward the "church" school but then I will have to, potentially, develop multiple "sainting" procedures. For this reason, I'm thinking about only giving saints to a particular prominent religion. I'm leaning toward Pelor after a chat where we discussed "christian-like" characteristics of various gods.
I am really torn about the role of the saint, if we also include angels, which I want to. I struggle to define roles. Any thoughts?
Hero Dieties and Saints. GVD, i would say that these two are the same the way Artifacts and Relics are the same. Hero Dieties, i would think, are like Heracles, for some reason gifted to the point that the gods wish to keep them around.
Saints are so faithful and beloved, even if incompetent (which I doubt many would be) they ascend.
In my last post on angels I was trying to draw a realm in which the angels do not interact with Humans much. They are pure good, and do not connect/understand/symathize/like the material races. Maybe that is what saints are for, that conduit to the faithful. To show them an example that they can emulate, and maybe, just maybe, with faith and diligence, achieve.
I think that angels and saints should both play a minor enough role that there roles could remain pretty similar. Saints may get more involved in the Oerthly doings of the deities as like Anced Math says I think angels would find humanoids quite alien to their way of thinking.
Saints I believe could belong to any faith as their sainthood is more in the eyes of the church or the deity themselves and reflects their embodiment of the deities ideals. Zodal is a perfect deity to have Saints yes he is not a major faith. It is possible that once a Saint has ascended to the side of his deitiy (usually through martyrdom) they may develop powers on a par to the more powerful angels. But a Saint does not have to be powerful individual.
Even the common man and an NPC with no adventuring classes could qualify as a Saint at such a status is more to do with the heart of the individual and not how powerful he is. Of course this also depends on the deity...but a farmer who dies in the name of Hiernoneous honourably defending his village singlehandedly from mercenaries of Hextor and to whom he has devotedly prayed to for his life may still be sainted for his valourous actions.
I think what I'm trying to say is that there are no clear definitions of who can have saints and that although there is a template for them in the Book of Exalted Deeds - beatification should be more of a storytelling thing. I don't like the idea that for example a saint must be a certain level or be able to cast spells of a certain level or whatever.
Angels and Saints would be rarely enough encountered that they could both be used withut conflict. Angels more as a messenger, punisher or rewarder to a deity's faithful. But in these roles I dont see there being much interaction..they come give the message and leave. A Saint who is a paragon of his gods ideals may try and show by example, and might interact more with people to explain their deities will more clearly and on terms a lay person ould comprehend. Perhaps also angels are more often used for business conducted on the planes?
I just realised that half of what I rambled is just what Anced Math said except more succinctly! So, yes I think I agree with Anced Math about the difference between Saints and Angels
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