Okay so I am running the original Temple of Elemental Evil Campaign at the moment but converted to 3rd edition rules.
Now the adventure gives the impression that the temple's location was lost...maybe I just havent read this properly or come to the wrong conclusion. Anywasy - HOW could it possibly lost when it is only about a day or two's ride from Hommlett and when most of the people who fought at the Battle of Emridy meadows and survived and those powerful individuals who sealed the temple are probabaly still alive.
My players are not dead set on finding the clerics and mages that bound Zuggtmoy before even going near the place. In a moment of ad libbing stress I proclaimed that it was some of the Circle of Eight who did this but I'm not so sure? Any ideas?
Also - any ideas as to why no-one has been able to find a huge black gothic cathedral in the middle of the hills of a well travelled area? I don't think I want to resort to the whole strange magics warding people away method as that's a bit contrived.
Further...it seems that it is supposed to be a great mystery that Zuggtmoy is...shock horror...still in the temple but the more the players ask about this the more glaringly obvious it seems that she clearly isn't back in the Abyss.
It's hard enough catering to the whims of a CN group without all the usual players making your life as hard as possible scenario :o)
so if anyone has some thoughts to share on this adventure then I would greatly appreciate it. I did play the adventure myself about 6 years ago but I joined the group after they had found the temple so I missed the part I'm currently at.
The othe rproblem is that the players want lots of aid from Hommlett and Verbobonc. After capturing Lareth they have conclusive evidence that the temple is back in action - I am staving off their demands so far by saying that the VIscount wants to know just how much back in power the temple is right now. The game clearly states that people like Y'Dey and Otis are unlikely to reveal themselves and if they do only to a good party. Having a bunch of CN makes this tough.
My final query is - how readilly do your players get the attention of the nobles and ruler sin your game. I agreed to grant the players an audience with Viscount WIlfrick of Verbobonc as they had brought Lareth's body with them (he was _supposed_ to still be alive) and they had received a letter of reference from Berne and Rufus. Was I too lenient letting them have the ear of the busy Viscount even if it was for 5 minutes? How have people played the support of areas such as Verbobonc city?
Here are some answers (!?!) and thoughts. These are just my musings, and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Now the adventure gives the impression that the temple's location was lost...maybe I just havent read this properly or come to the wrong conclusion.
I don’t think the ToEE was ever considered “lost”, where are you getting this idea from?
My players are not dead set on finding the clerics and mages that bound Zuggtmoy before even going near the place. In a moment of ad libbing stress I proclaimed that it was some of the Circle of Eight who did this but I'm not so sure? Any ideas?
Who bound Tzuggtmoy is never detailed (to my knowledge). Keep in mind that the Circle of Eight did not exist in 569CY; at that time Mordenkainen’s band of All-Stars were called the “Citadel of Eight” and consisted of members of all professions, including Otis, brother of Elmo (LGJ #0). However, from the following two scraps (see below), one could surmise that Mordie, Tenser, Bigby and Riggby were around (while although not at Emridy Meadows, there was time [a fortnight] for interested members of the Citadel to arrive, AND it appears, in any event, they were at least in town for Serten’s funeral) and perhaps other mages and priests (especially from Veluna and Verbobonc—Cutherbertine and Raoan priests especially):
ToEE pg. 5
“So great was the slaughter, so complete
the victory of good, that the walled stronghold
of the Temple of Elemental Evil fell within
a fortnight, despite the aid of a terrible demon.
The place was ruined and sealed against a further
return of such abominations by powerful
blessings and magic.”
Living Greyhawk Journal #0 pg. 5
“In 569 CY, when
the first arrow flew at Emridy Meadows, the Citadel was
noticeably absent. Whether investigating magical secrets
far to the west or unearthing lost passages in Urnst's
Maure Castle, these self-absorbed celebrities were too
preoccupied to influence one of the century's most critical
battles. All were absent save Serten, who fought valiantly
at the side of Prince Thrommel against the hordes of
Elemental Evil. When Serten fell, none of his friends
stood at his side. Though most attended his ostentatious
funeral service in Verbobonc, a crucial rift had been torn
in the organization.”
Further...it seems that it is supposed to be a great mystery that Zuggtmoy is...shock horror...still in the temple but the more the players ask about this the more glaringly obvious it seems that she clearly isn't back in the Abyss.
How are the players (I assume they are lowish level) even aware of the existence of Tzuggtmoy, let alone if she is back in the Abyss? Unless they tortured/deceived/bribed Lareth or other bad guys, most who know anything about the temple (very few—all Y’dey, Otis and Burne know is that there are bad folk associated with the ToEE, possibly with demonic aid, and they want to know more), think that it was an evil cult that received power from some malign elemental force. The LGG indicates that the knowledge that there is a “powerful demon” trapped in the “golden doors of the edifice” (pg. 132), is generally known (Local Knowledge DC10).
The othe problem is that the players want lots of aid from Hommlett and Verbobonc. After capturing Lareth they have conclusive evidence that the temple is back in action - I am staving off their demands so far by saying that the VIscount wants to know just how much back in power the temple is right now. The game clearly states that people like Y'Dey and Otis are unlikely to reveal themselves and if they do only to a good party. Having a bunch of CN makes this tough.
The actions of the players should determine how the powerful NPC’s interact with them, not just their alignment. If the group is acting in a fashion that leads to destruction of property life and limb of the common folk of Hommlett, I would suggest that Burne/Rufus and the Cuthbertines may view the PC’s as nothing more than moderately dangerous wastrel vagabonds at best, vicious brigands at worst. If the PC’s play by the rules, being courteous (obsequious would be better) and flattering to their betters, showing that they have a sincere concern for the Viscounty and its people (borne out by their actions), then they may get help. Otherwise, until they play nice—no help, no curing, no spells, no advice, NADA.
My final query is - how readilly do your players get the attention of the nobles and ruler sin your game. I agreed to grant the players an audience with Viscount WIlfrick of Verbobonc as they had brought Lareth's body with them (he was _supposed_ to still be alive) and they had received a letter of reference from Berne and Rufus. Was I too lenient letting them have the ear of the busy Viscount even if it was for 5 minutes? How have people played the support of areas such as Verbobonc city?
IMC--Although Verbobonc is technically a “good” land, you must know your place, and that means if you are not the church, noble or really rich/powerful, then you don’t have a pot to p%ss in. The court of the Viscount is a ruthless place. The Viscount is a very rich, powerful and important person, looking to become richer and more powerful. He does not perceive his noble vassals, let alone landless, penniless mercenaries, as his peers. The court of the Viscount is populated by social climbers and courtiers of all kinds, all seeking to better their personal and family power. The Viscount owns all the land (excepting that owned by the church and various Velunan nobles). He has the ability enfief whomever he wishes, or to revoke such privilege. The Guilds exist at his pleasure (although they are very rich and powerful making trifling with them very dangerous).
Your PC’s need to very careful. Even with a letter from Burne & Rufus, and five minuets, they could anger the courtiers and other powerful people (some supplicants wait for months…). If the PC’s are rude or crass, demanding or anything but VERY VERY polite they may annoy the Viscount, who already assumes that Burne/Rufus already have the “new ToEE” problem in hand (and the mere appearance of the PC’s may aggravate the Viscount, making him a nearly insurmountable challenge for the PC’s).
Burne and Rufus are very interested in what the PC’s have to say to the Viscount; the mere appearance of the PC’s may indicate to the Viscount (and the court) that B&R are failing in some way—remember, the Viscount and Veluna are building a very large, very expensive castle (they have already sported for the tower that B&R live in). The castle has, in their minds, ALREADY taken care of any problem in the ToEE area.
I suspect that B&R knew the CN character of the PC’s, and suspected that they would embarrass themselves and look like fools (apparently the PC’s managed to kill Lareth on the way to Verbobonc, helping make them look like buffoons). I recommend that B&R send correspondence to the Viscount shortly after the PC’s audience indicating that the PC’s are merely persistent fools, nothing more, and that all is well in Hommlett. Rufus and Burne want the recognition for putting down the new ToEE—1) it’s their job, 2) they can clearly see magnificent benefit to any success in the ToEE (by them of the PC’s)
R&B could play a game that they use the hazard prone PC’s to do all the dirty work, then swoop in at the end and claim the success for themselves. The PC’s could exploit this and somehow use R&B’s interest to their own accord.
Sounds like you have your hands full with your CN PC’s. Good Luck!
Yours most sincerely,
Fairylover _________________ Nixiespixies and grigs OH MY!
I wouldn't say the Temple of Elemental Evil was lost, but I would say that the forces of good would do everything in their power to remove any mention of it from any source, just to keep its location more of an unknown to discourage the average chump from seeking the place out. That way any agents of good know that something is probably up when somebody comes around asking about the Temple and where it is exactly located.
As to wanting aid, I think your players are being a bit greedy. Killing Lareth does not constitute proof that the Temple is operating again, but it definitely points to the possibility, such that an investigation of the Temple might be a good thing, as Lareth was operating right under the noses of the Hommlet lords and Canon Terjon as well. The characters should not be running off to Verbobonc to bug the Viscount. That is what Burne as Rufus are for, as the local lords in Hommlet. They would be the ones to pass along information to the Viscount (and to agents of Veluna and Furyondy as well).
If I were you I'd have ended the matter in Hommlet so that the party needs not waste time journeying all the way to Verbobonc and back.
While they were gone, I would have put a new agent in the moat house, and put the Temple on high alert(the watchtower in the northeast corner in particular, plus the various temples as well, as they would probably have found out that the moat house had been wiped out while the pc's were traveling to and from Verbobonc. If the pc's were very vocal and public about their activities then that has other consequences as described towards the end of the moat house area, but other Temple agents might also have provided descriptions of the pc's to various temple factions that they serve.
Rulers of nations or large cities should not be giving audiences to the pc's for trivial reasons. What proof do they really have? Did they torture Lareth or use speak with dead? Even if they had, Burne and Rufus (as they are the primary agents of good in Hommlet) should have handled the situation and told the pc’s to investigate the Temple. The Viscount of Verbobonc should never have been involved. Until further proof is gained, the Temple would be considered a small matter.
The Viscount might say "'You easily enough defeated these brigands and their leader in this ruined moat house, did you not? I'm sure the local lords are very happy. Do not bother me again with such unimportant things, particularly when they are so far removed from Verbobonc. The local lords should have been able to help you, particularly as they will have a more intimate knowledge of the area and of what aid you might need. The next time you show up here, if there even is a next time, you'd better have proof that an army is marshalling at the old Temple site, or I'll throw you in gaol to waste your time mulling over how you've wasted mine."
That's what I would do. A chaotic neutral party often needs to be shown its boundaries. They are not in control, and they will not likely engender much trust from npc's if they act all "high and mighty" all the time. Are they a bunch of lower upper-class minor nobles or from wealthy families? Should they be accustomed to being listened to and respected by their lessers, or are they just a bunch of commoners-turned-adventurers? Do the serve Verbobonc? If they are just your common garden variety of adventurer with no affiliations whatsoever, then most people of importance won't give them the time of day. The pc's will most likely interact with intermediaries instead. The Viscount might have sent his seneschal to deal with the pc's rather than do it himself. If the party has something really important to reveal, the seneschal would hear it and then decide if it was worthy of the Viscount's personal attention.
You need to put the pc's in their place.
That should help you decide how most commoners and nobles will react to them.
[/i]
My players are not dead set on finding the clerics and mages that bound Zuggtmoy before even going near the place. In a moment of ad libbing stress I proclaimed that it was some of the Circle of Eight who did this but I'm not so sure? Any ideas?
This is a good question, and one I found answer to in Thomas M. Reid's novel The Temple of Elemental Evil. And, I think he makes a pretty credible assertion about who imprisoned Zuggtmoy.
He suggests that it was "locals." Burne was certainly present, as was a a wizard from the novel named Lanithaine. Then there were other unnamed clerics and magic users in the service of the joint force composed of soldiers from Furyondy, Veluna, the Viscounty and Celene. Perhaps even a low-level Cannoness Y'dey can be said to have participated. But note that those responsible for imprisoning Zuggtmoy did not banish her from the Prime Material Plane. They either lacked the knowledge or strength to get rid of her outright. They could only trap her deep in the temple's fell dungeons.
But the Citadel of Eight are certainly not present at the Battle of Emridy Meadows or its aftermath. They would have done a more thorough job of dealing with the temple's foul inhabitants - namely The Lady of Fungi.
I hope my small contribution above helps. I'm no expert, but I think this sheds a bit of light on one of your questions, Wolfling. _________________ Don (Greyson)
Okay so I am running the original Temple of Elemental Evil Campaign at the moment but converted to 3rd edition rules.
Now the adventure gives the impression that the temple's location was lost...maybe I just havent read this properly or come to the wrong conclusion.
Very interesting is the issue you brought into discussion.
Well. in the original T1-4, page 4, in the Player`s Background section there exists text:
"Whether the evil came west from Dyvers (as is claimed by one faction) or crept up out of the forestlands bordering the Wild Coast (as others assert), come it did."
Then, in the original T1-4, page 27, in the Player`s Background section, Hommlet to Nulb chapter, there exists text:
"For many years, a cult of Chaotic Evil flourished somewhere on the shores of the Nyr Dyv. Although the location of their Temple is lost, these facts regarding it and its followers are known."
If we assume true both excerpts, the cult of Elemental Evil was introduced west from Dyvers and near the shores of Nyr Dyv. Clearly, this location is different from the known location near Nulb. Therefore, the first occurrence of the Elemental Evil cult (by the shores of Nyr Dyv, west from Dyvers) had a stronghold/operation bases that its location is now lost. The text does not refer to the known location of the ToEE near Nulb. On the contrary, it refers to the location where the cult was founded.
Hope the above do help, eh?
tz _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
I think I assumed that at the time they published the adventure the geography of the area at large was still quite undeveloped. I can't remember the context of the quote about the shores of the Nyr Dyv off hand but I think I had thought that it just referred to the actual Temple Of Elemental Evil that is now considered lost.
It is possible that it is this original cult centre right on the shores of the Nyr Dyv that has been lost and The Temple Of Elemental Evil was not lost...just avoided. That would actually make more sense in a way. But I don't know if the adventure implies that. Instead it seemed to imply that it was the Temple that was lost and the reference to the shores of the Nyr Dyv still refer to the Temple although in light of the maps that must have later arrisen...this is a little bit of a stretch of geography.
TOEE has a number of glitches in it - the Moathouse, Nulb and Temple distances differ in part one to the map book. Nulb is "but 6 miles distant" (pg 5) of Hommlet, although clearly later in the book this becomes about 30 miles. Likewise room 307 (Grotto) contains Leucrotta that can be avoided by anyone "bearing the branched staff described in area 427"....unfortunately it isnot described.
Overall there is some loose editing in this module, which provided is understood, does not become a major issue to solve yourself.
Some clued up locals in Hommlet clearly know where the Temple is but I think the text refers to a wider context. Its location is not public knowledge in, say, Verbobonc.
It's good that Lareth was captured in your adventure. In our campaign he became a major thorn in the PC's side (although he did spend some time as an undead creature). He is also a key player in the Return to the Temple adventure, so keep him safely locked up for now
And what's the deal with Burne & Rufus? They start out with separate rooms in the original module and then move in together in the Return. Those crazy kids must be in lurve...
And what's the deal with Burne & Rufus? They start out with separate rooms in the original module and then move in together in the Return. Those crazy kids must be in lurve...
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has suspected that...in my campaign Berne and Rufus are somewhat closer than friends but i play in a primarily gay orientated group so we are happy to include such things if appropriate.
Quote:
Overall there is some loose editing in this module, which provided is understood, does not become a major issue to solve yourself.
Your're right Yeoman I have come to the conclusion that the adventure is rife with little errors so I'll just tackle them as I see fit.
bye the way thanks for all the help guys about this query...much appreciated
My neighbors saw your post through the window and have gone to get their pitchforks and torches!!!!!Ruuuuuuuuuuun!!!!
A gay oriented group!!!! Now they are back, and have signs saying they will kill the Devil!!! Some bearded old man is giving a speech.... hold on I can just hear it from my hiding place......
"....not only are they gay, but they are ROLE PLAYERS!!! God wants these depraved Dungeon .. i mean Demon warshipers and degenerate lovers of the flesh to PAY!!!! PAY I SAY!!!! And I will now prove that I am his chosen right hand by letting this snake BITE ME!!! "
It is possible that it is this original cult centre right on the shores of the Nyr Dyv that has been lost and The Temple Of Elemental Evil was not lost...just avoided. That would actually make more sense in a way. But I don't know if the adventure implies that. Instead it seemed to imply that it was the Temple that was lost and the reference to the shores of the Nyr Dyv still refer to the Temple although in light of the maps that must have later arrisen...this is a little bit of a stretch of geography.
Possible? More than possible! Ten years after the Battle of Emridy Meadows is not a long time so that a fallen place like the ToEE is lost or forgotten, especially when we examine the question for a rural area.
Answers, research demands careful reading of more than one source.
The development of the cult of Elemental Evil was a joint project of Zuggtmoy and Iuz (“Iuz the Evil,” pp. 3). “Iuz the Evil” and T1-4 (pp. 127) references explicitly state a collaboration between Zuggy and Iuz to the end of promoting the cult. Since Iuz was imprisoned in 505 CY (by Zagyg and company) and all development of the temple near Nulb was in the absence of Iuz (Iuz was freed in 570 CY, while the temple near Nulb, as well as related establishments say Moathouse for instance, were built no more than a decade before the Battle of Emridy Meadows, that is not before 559 CY), there must had existed an initial development phase of the cult before 505 CY. Iuz at that time was pressing the borders of Furyondy and Vesve (see “Iuz the Evil” for instance), and at the same time was preparing a strike under the nose of the forces of weal at the opposite side of the Kingdom which is Dyvers (Dyvers at that time was still part of Furyondy, shortly later declaring independence). Naturally, this assault under preparation had its bases. The two (Iuz, Zuggy) had also crafted the Yellowskull (T1-4, pp.127). Plans were postponed by the advent of Zagyg and co.
The above paragraph completely complies and explains in brief the “lost Temple of Elemental Evil” reference of T1-4, pp. 27. In conjunction with T1-4, pp.4, new potentially canon material has already been created, submitted to the site, and in a few days readers will have the chance to enjoy:)
tz _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
The above paragraph completely complies with and explains in brief the “lost Temple of Elemental Evil” reference of T1-4, pp. 27. In conjunction with T1-4, pp.4, new potentially canon material has already been created, submitted to the site, and in a few days readers will have the chance to enjoy:)tz
The above mentioned potentially canon material is an article entitled "Greyhawk Content of the Coloring Album," published in canonfire! some months ago.
Now the sequel is upcoming in OJ16, "The Temple of Elemental Evil: from the rise of Iuz to His release."
The above mentioned potentially canon material is an article entitled "Greyhawk Content of the Coloring Album," published in canonfire! some months ago.
For those who want to brush up on the Greyhawk Content of the Coloring Album article, you can find it HERE.
I look forward to your forthcoming article in the Oerth Journal 16, Scarlattos, regarding this material. It is always good reading. _________________ Don (Greyson)
Very interesting... So where did the cult originally come from?
Well, Zuggtmoy has worked at this Gnarley area through ages lost. There is this Dungeon adventure on the children of the scarlet sign taken place in Narwell.
But the ToEE concept is considerably more recent to the area. Prior to that, the elemental evil lords (e.g., Imix, Ogremoch, Olhydra, Yan-c Bin) have worked in Aquaria, the continent further east to Oerik, see R1-4 tourneys together with Egg of the Phoenix.
Carefull reading of T1-4 also indicates that Zuggy was appropriating the spheres of influence of the Elder Elemental God.
I do not want to say any more and spoil the upcoming OJ16 article. The issue is on the hands of Nellisir. I was also supposed to get a copy for review purposes. I guess it is going to be released anytime soon. _________________ "It is easier to milk a cow that stands still." Tzeliobas-Aristomenes, General Cleaning, Greyhawk Construction Company.
I am waiting for that issue! I got the two ToEE/RtToEE modules this year, and I definitely want to build a game around them. However, I want to reduce the dungeon crawl significantly, and for that, such secret plots are important.
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