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    Canonfire :: View topic - The future of Castle Zagyg = Hasbro?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    The future of Castle Zagyg = Hasbro?
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 29, 2006
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    Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:46 pm  
    The future of Castle Zagyg = Hasbro?

    I haven't heard much rumor or speculation regarding Castle Zagyg or Gygax Games in some time. I have a theory and I'm curious to hear what other people think.

    Basically, I see Castle Zagyg going in one inevitable direction: it's going to be published by Hasbro.

    This is the only way to explain everything that's happened. Consider...

    *Gygax's wishes
    I read something a few years ago about Gygax Games or the estate defending their actions, saying that Gail was "fulfilling Gary's wishes." This always puzzled me because why would Gary suddenly cut ties with his collaborator, abandon his publisher, and starve all of his fans? The only possible answer is: to take care of his loved ones. He encouraged his family to shop around and get the best deal possible on his IP. He wanted to provide for them and make sure they were comfortable when he could no longer be there himself.

    *Talanian's departure
    Jeffrey Talanian hasn't revealed much, but he did confess that he was offered a diminished role in the new incarnation of Castle Zagyg, which is why he passed it up. Let's face it: no one is better qualified to continue CZ than Talanian. The only person or entity stupid enough to take the reins from him would be a massive juggernaut full of hubris like Hasbro.

    *The impracticality of a start-up
    Reinventing the wheel isn't a big money maker in the modern FRPG market. Gygax Games either realized the limitations of self publishing or the terms of their venture with WotC changed and they took their website down.

    *Secrecy and delays
    Gygax Games is dealing with something much, much bigger than themselves. What else could explain all of the secrecy? It doesn't take five years to launch a product line, but it does take five years to negotiate with a huge corporation and for that corporation to realize that no one likes their products anymore and transition to a new, old-school-friendly edition.

    *Who else, if not TLG or Mongoose?
    The only companies who could offer a higher bid would be Paizo or Hasbro. Gary wanted something close to the classic rules for CG and Paizo is stuck in 3E Pathfinder land, while Hasbro is supposedly going old school.

    *D&D Next
    Between fundraising for a Gygax statue, reprinting all of Gygax's rulebooks, reprinting tons of GH (the "G" & "S" series and Hommlet), Hasbro sure has been trying to appeal to both Gygax fans and the OSR. With a new edition coming out, what better way to try to bring everyone back into the fold than Castle Greyhawk? This would explain why Hasbro held off on any GH revitalization in 4E.

    Thoughts?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:49 am  

    Well, there are many suppositions that can be made, and many questions which could be asked; some of which could probably be answered (by grodog possibly, if he has the inclination/permission to do so).

    Gygax Magazine could be the vehicle for taking on this project. The people behind it are certainly well suited to putting such a project together. I have little faith in WotC/Hasbro, but I guess it is always possible that they are extricating heads from butts and are ready to go with something they haven't completely mucked up yet and that has a built-in following (i.e. customer base), that being Greyhawk.

    Also, based on various things, I think WotC/Hasbro's OSR efforts focus more on PR and making money, with little work required, than anything else. It is a business after all, and they haven't exactly been knocking it out of the park D&D-wise for a while now. If they were, Paizo would not have the market share that they do. We'll see what happens with D&D 5E, which they hope won't have people saying, "D&D? Next!" Razz
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:03 am  

    Considering the renewed attention on the OSR (incoluding repressing deluxe versions of AD&D manuals) and the late "low medieval" feel of fantasy like Game of Thrones, it's not improbable they will bring Greyhawk back, alhough maybe Birthright would be evern better suited, less "pulp" culture beneath.
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:49 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    but I guess it is always possible that they are extricating heads from butts and are ready to go with something

    I wondered what that sonic pop noise I heard the other day was.... Mystery solved. Laughing Laughing Wink
    Cebrion wrote:
    Also, based on various things, I think WotC/Hasbro's OSR efforts focus more on PR and making money, with little work required, than anything else. It is a business after all, and they haven't exactly been knocking it out of the park D&D-wise for a while now. If they were, Paizo would not have the market share that they do.
    YEP... * Pound table* HERE HERE and WELL met.
    Cebrion wrote:

    Well see what happens with D&D 5E, which they hope won't have people saying, "D&D? Next!" Razz

    Though that determination won't happen for 3 YEARS based on current pace, data accumulations, and "playtesting".
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:11 am  

    Speaking as a commercial lawyer, I have no idea how Gary let this IP get away from him. It should have been that he either kept his IP, or was made for life. I got the impression that while the money may have been good at one point in the early '80s, it had dried up significantly prior to his death.

    For all of you out there who disparage lawyers, I tell you, lawyers are your best friend.

    Gary and Dave's "do it yourself" incorporation back in '73 or so was a complete abomination. They saved $500 and lost $5,000,000. Ugh! If only I had a time machine, I'd do a shareholders agreement for free.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:41 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    Gygax Magazine could be the vehicle for taking on this project. The people behind it are certainly well suited to putting such a project together.

    Well, Gail owns the IP and she has already objected to the new TSR's use of the word "Gygax" for their magazine (HERE). Not a good start. Also, TSR doesn't have much to offer Gail other than trademark recognition. Jayson Elliot spent his savings starting the business and TSR doesn't have a game system or the distribution channels of other companies.

    Basically, Gail is looking for money. No disrespect to her, it's simply the only way to explain "Gary' wishes" for dropping TLG. Who better to offer a forkload of cash than the elephant in the room that's been absolutely maximizing their Gygax IP? It's also telling that Gail and Hasbro have already been collaborating through the Gygax Memorial Fund and the 1e reprints.

    I have zero faith in Hasbro, but they're losing ground to the OSR and with a new edition about to come out, the time is ripe for them to make a gamble. TLG and Mongoose fell through; relations are icy with TSR and Gygax Games went MIA. Who else could there be?
    Paladin

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    Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:43 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:

    Gygax Magazine could be the vehicle for taking on this project. The people behind it are certainly well suited to putting such a project together.

    Well, Gail owns the IP and she has already objected to the new TSR's use of the word "Gygax" for their magazine (HERE). Not a good start.

    Wow Thanks Vestcoat for the link. interesting read,, it what amounts to a family feud over the "bones" of the elder dragon laid to rest. Sad Neutral Cry Cry rolleyes , hopefully they can find some middle ground by asking WWGGD.... Confused Confused
    As it sits now, the only ones profiting are Hasbro (reguritating the old) and Piazo (blazing a new trail minus GH).
    One would think the collective braintrust that is Gygax would want Gary's legacy (to use a well worn phrase by both sides) to find a way for GREYHAWK to ENDURE.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:20 am  

    Not sure if it is appropriate, and if not I apologize for the thread jack, but over on Google + I follow Rob Kuntz and recently read this article:

    http://lakegenevaoriginalrpg.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-first-living-campaign.html

    Great read in any event.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:04 am  

    Well I haven't been keeping up with this, so I may be missing something. Please feel free to clarify it for me.

    I was under the impression that the "new" TSR involved Ernie and his brother, Luke. It is my understanding that it is this "TSR" that wishes to produce "Gygax Magazine." If true, then what's the problem?

    Ernie Gygax and Luke Gygax can name their magazine Gygax if they want to. No court on earth can stop them. Gygax is their name.

    Gail may claim rights to E.G.G.'s full name, but cannot lay legal claim to the boy's birth name, family name. Gail is a "Gygax" by marriage, Ernie and Luke are "Gygax" by birth.

    My grandfather was Anthony Benedict Hargis Senior, my father is A.B.H. Junior, I am Anthony Benedict Hargis III.

    Neither my grandmother, nor my step-mother can tell me I can't name "my" magazine "Hargis Magazine." And my situation is somewhat similar in that my father -- Jr. -- is in the New Orleans Musicians Hall of Fame. So he is known "locally." People might well assume that "Hargis Magazine" was him, though it would not be. My step-mother can dislike that all she wants, it's still my name and I can use it if I wish.

    Gail may be able to tell them they cannot name the magazine "E.G.G. Magazine," but she cannot deny them the use of their own name, to wit -- GYGAX.

    You guys are making this sound all too weird.

    The name "Castle Zagyg" may well be another matter, dependent upon E.G.G.'s Will.
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    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:53 am  

    warlock wrote:
    Not sure if it is appropriate, and if not I apologize for the thread jack, but over on Google + I follow Rob Kuntz and recently read this article:

    http://lakegenevaoriginalrpg.blogspot.com/2013/04/the-first-living-campaign.html

    Great read in any event.

    Great Read indeed... It is always wonderous to see the coming of the Dawn. And conveys the sentiment of the thread as well... Even Rob, as noted below, could see the dark tide coming....
    Rob Kuntz wrote:

    But the more I continued concentrating on something I deemed as unsalvageable (TSR owned the Greyhawk trademark and associated copyrights), the more I saw all those earliest years filled with comradeship and unfettered game fun and creation slipping into the pit of corporate control and politics.

    And LOVE this anology
    Rob Kuntz wrote:

    I have likened it to a royal prisoner in the Tower of London who is brought forth on special occasions and paraded before the peers (for their feigned respect) and the people (for their uninformed cheers, or worse, confused silence). In other words they use it, but not in any sincere way that it was intended to be used.

    Good Find Warlock..
    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:00 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Well I haven't been keeping up with this, so I may be missing something. Please feel free to clarify it for me.

    The name "Castle Zagyg" may well be another matter, dependent upon E.G.G.'s Will.

    You have correctly identified the battleground MS... the "grey" that lawyering loves to playground in will be where/ how the EGG parts relate to what the sons' intend to publish within their magazine. IF it crowds tooo closely (and depending on IP ownerships) it may get ugly. What would prove entertaining "lawyering" is IF the Sons could broker leverage for the IP of their OWN Characters that were lost in the original TSR quagmire, since after all, it was their creation originally. Wink Confused
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:56 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    Ernie Gygax and Luke Gygax can name their magazine Gygax if they want to. No court on earth can stop them. Gygax is their name.


    That's like saying that if my last name is McDonald (it isn't), I can name my new fast food restaurant McDonald's without paying a franchise fee.

    Fortunately for those of us who don't like to be surprised by restaurants who are unable to sell us Big Macs when we desperately need them (or who might sell us strange-tasting, inferior Big Macs if they were allowed), that's not how trademark law works. The point of a trademark is that only one company per industry may use it; this prevents a company from piggybacking on a brand that another company has spent time, money, and effort in building.

    If your name happens to be Gygax, you can put it on your business cards and on your Facebook page. If you have a landscaping business or a record company, you can even name your company after it. If Gail Gygax has a valid, current trademark to the name Gygax as applied to gaming magazines, though, everyone else is out of luck. They might be able to call their periodical Luke and Ernie Gygax Magazine, or something else that's clearly different from Gail Gygax's registered trademark (just like if your name is Joe McDonald you might be able to (I don't actually know; maybe Rafael does) call your restaurant Joe McDonald's Family Diner and escape the wrath of McDonald's lawyers). If a judge rules that Gail Gygax's trademark doesn't apply to magazines, or if it has expired or lapsed or been otherwise rendered invalid by the fact that she hasn't ever done anything with it to date, then they're fine. But just having Gygax in their name isn't necessarily enough to allow them to call their magazine that. If it was, someone named Oswald Gygax with no connection to the Gygax dynasty at all might create a Gygax magazine just to trick people. Trademark exists in part for consumer protection. In this case, Ernie and Luke might arguably be better custodians of the family name than Gail is, but the law might well be on her side.


    Last edited by rasgon on Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:11 am; edited 1 time in total
    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:08 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    The point of a trademark is that only one company per industry may use it; this prevents other companies from piggybacking on a brand that other companies have spent time, money, and effort in building.
    If Gail Gygax has a valid, current trademark to the name Gygax as applied to gaming magazines, though, everyone else is out of luck. They might be able to call their periodical Luke and Ernie Gygax Magazine, or something else that's clearly different from Gail Gygax's registered trademark
    If a judge rules that Gail Gygax's trademark doesn't apply to magazines, or if it has expired or lapsed or been otherwise rendered invalid by the fact that she hasn't ever done anything with it to date, then they're fine. But just having Gygax in their name isn't necessarily enough to allow them to call their magazine that. If it was, someone named Oswald Gygax with no connection to the Gygax dynasty at all might create a Gygax magazine just to trick people. Trademark exists in part for consumer protection. In this case, Ernie and Luke might arguably be better custodians of the family name than Gail is (As it relates to GH anyway), but the law might well be on her side.

    MS, regrettably, I think Rasgon is Spot On with his assessment..... Unfortunately it will "clearly" be defined and fought over in the fineprint of what the IPs of all conjoining parties are. With only the lawyers truely winning out.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:18 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    If Gail Gygax has a valid, current trademark to the name Gygax as applied to gaming magazines . . .


    I appreciate trademark, however, there has never been a magazine named "Gygax Magazine" . . . not to my knowledge.

    Gail cannot say: "I own the name Gygax, so you can't name any magazine 'Gygax Magazine.'" That is what will not stand up in court.

    Did Gary ever publish a "Gygax Magazine?" I've never heard of it before.

    Dark_Lord_Galen wrote:
    . . . the "grey" that lawyering loves to playground in will be where/ how the EGG parts relate to what the sons' intend to publish within their magazine.


    That is the "correct" of it. As his widow, Gail -- to everyone's misfortune -- now owns Gary's Intellectual Property rights . . . but not the name.

    rasgon wrote:
    you can even name your company after it . . .


    You obviously "see" where it's going, while still -- slightly -- missing the point.

    Ernie is even E.G.G., though he is Junior. Therefore, she can legally demand that the Magazine be named E.G.G. Jr. Magazine, but she cannot deny him use of Ernie Gary Gygax. No one can deny him the use of his own name.

    And my family has experience in these matters.

    My young cousin is named Virgil Joseph Wiley II. Know why? Because his father, my 1st cousin, died before he was born. Since the mother could not prove paternity, he could not be called "junior" on his birth certificate. My Aunt would not allow the body to be exhumed for that purpose.

    When my grandfather, whom we all called "Grandpa Junior," enlisted for WWII, he was informed that he was not "junior," informed of such by the U.S. Army. His father was Anthony Joseph, he was named Anthony Benedict. The middle name must also be the same. This wasn't "commonly" known back then.

    There are laws regarding names, not just the use of them.

    When the court tells Ernie that he cannot use his own name, that is an automatic appeal. Ernie can take it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court, which will not tell him he cannot use his own name.

    My past life gave me plenty of opportunity to study what is called "Case Law." In fact, several Legal Groups have acknowledge that my fellows and I -- in my former "home" -- were better at "Case Law" than most attorneys.

    Gail cannot -- under law -- hold "patent" on any and all possible future magazines, not unless E.G.G. had once published a "Gygax Magazine," thereby having legally established it as trademarked.

    But, feel free to dispute the issue with me.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:02 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    That is the "correct" of it. As his widow, Gail -- to everyone's misfortune -- now owns Gary's Intellectual Property rights . . . but not the name.


    Since we all have access to the internet, we can actually look up exactly what she owns.

    Now, granted, these were all filed last month (!) and they're not finalized, but:

    A trademark for the name Gygax applied to clothing, footwear, and headgear.

    A trademark for the name Gygax applied to motion pictures and computer software.

    Gygax in paper goods and printed material.

    Gygax for roleplaying games and board games.

    entertainment services, namely, providing interactive games by means of a global computer network; Providing online information concerning Gary Gygax; Providing online information concerning games and entertainment; Entertainment services, namely, providing a website featuring information in the field of games; Conducting entertainment exhibitions in the nature of conventions for game enthusiasts; motion picture production services.

    Quote:
    Ernie is even E.G.G., though he is Junior


    And no one can take his name from him. However, that has nothing to do with whether or not he can name a magazine after himself. A man legally named John Macintosh who builds Linux computers can't call his computers Macintoshes; that'd be too confusing for people who expect Macintosh computers to have the Mac OS on them.

    Edit: I didn't catch that you acknowledged that he might have to call the magazine EGG Jr, or somesuch. He might not, actually (see the precedents below), but it sounds like we don't actually disagree. No one claimed the court would force him to change his name or anything like that.

    Quote:
    My young cousin is named Virgil Joseph Wiley II. Know why? Because his father, my 1st cousin, [b]died before he was born. Since the mother could not prove paternity, he could not be called "junior" on his birth certificate. My Aunt would not allow the body to be exhumed for that purpose.

    When my grandfather, whom we all called "Grandpa Junior," enlisted for WWII, he was informed that he was not "junior," informed of such by the U.S. Army. His father was Anthony Joseph, he was named Anthony Benedict. The middle name must also be the same. This wasn't "commonly" known back then.


    And that has nothing to do with trademark law.

    Quote:
    When the court tells Ernie that he cannot use his own name


    He can use his name. He just can't necessarily use them on a magazine, assuming Gail Gygax's trademark application goes through and a court rules it valid.

    Don't get me wrong; there's every reason to believe her attempt to corner the market on every conceivable use of the name Gygax won't hold up if she never actually does anything with it (or for some other reason, such as the fact that she apparently didn't try to trademark the name until after the magazine was announced). But that has nothing to do with what Ernest Gary Gygax Jr.'s name is.

    Quote:
    Gail cannot -- under law -- hold "patent" on any and all possible future magazines, not unless E.G.G. had once published a "Gygax Magazine," thereby having legally established it as trademarked.


    A trademark isn't the same as (or even similar to) a patent, and it doesn't matter what Gary Gygax senior did or didn't do; the trademark is Gail's. It happens to be her legal last name as well, but even if it wasn't, she could still register the trademark. Apple Computers wasn't founded by a man named Steve Apple, after all.


    Last edited by rasgon on Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:22 am; edited 3 times in total
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:02 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    Gail cannot -- under law -- hold "patent" on any and all possible future magazines

    She doesn't control the name "Gygax" for all magazines, just ones that pertain to her trademark (FRPG's and probably fiction). If Gygax Magazine focused on health care or stamp collecting, they might be safe, but considering the content, a judge would probably rule in Gail's favor.

    I'd be surprised if Gail starts a war and raises a hand against her stepchildren, but between "Gygax" and "TSR", Jayson Elliot is walking on dangerous ground. TSR is his baby, while the Gygax brothers are active participants. It almost seems like he got them as publishers to cover his *** more than anything else. I really hope it works out.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:11 am  

    vestcoat wrote:
    She doesn't control the name "Gygax" for all magazines


    For what it's worth, one of the trademark applications is for "paper goods and printed material." If that held up in court, it actually would be for all magazines.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:12 am  

    rasgon wrote:

    Gygax for roleplaying games and board games.

    Thanks Rasgon. It's very interesting that she didn't file until 3/4/13. It almost seems like a reaction to Gygax Magazine. Maybe things will get ugly.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 10:27 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    My past life gave me plenty of opportunity to study what is called "Case Law." In fact, several Legal Groups have acknowledge that my fellows and I -- in my former "home" -- were better at "Case Law" than most attorneys.


    As far as relevant case law goes, here are some examples.

    wikipedia wrote:
    From the early 1960s to the mid-1980s, Norman McDonald ran a small "Country Drive-Inn" restaurant in Philpot, Kentucky called simply "McDonald's Hamburgers; Country Drive-Inn", which at the time also had a gas station and convenience store. As a play on the real McDonald's, Norman also included a couple of lit "golden arches". McDonald's the restaurant chain forced Norman to remove the arches and add the full Norman McDonald's name to its sign so customers would not be confused into thinking the restaurant was affiliated with the McDonald's restaurant chain. The restaurant is still open to this day (though it no longer has the gas station) and is located in front of the Daviess County Fairgrounds.


    wikipedia wrote:
    McDonald's filed a lawsuit against MacDonald's Family Restaurant, located in Grand Cayman. McDonald's lost the case, and in addition, was banned from ever opening a McDonald's location on Grand Cayman. This ruling still stands today.


    wikipedia wrote:
    The company waged an unsuccessful 26-year legal action against McDonald's Family Restaurant which was opened by a man legally named Ronald McDonald in Fairbury, Illinois in 1956.[16] Mr. McDonald ultimately continued to use his name on his restaurant, despite objections by the franchise.


    As you can see, cases like these can go either way. I think, in my entirely unprofessional and amateur opinion (I am not a lawyer, nor do I claim to be an expert in case law), that Gygax Magazine has a strong case: it is Ernie's name, and they announced the magazine before she applied for the trademarks, and they have an actual magazine to show and she doesn't. But the fact that it's his name isn't inherently a guarantee of success, as Norman McDonald discovered.
    Paladin

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:32 am  

    vestcoat wrote:
    rasgon wrote:

    Gygax for roleplaying games and board games.

    Thanks Rasgon. It's very interesting that she didn't file until 3/4/13. It almost seems like a reaction to Gygax Magazine. Maybe things will get ugly.

    yea saw that and I drew the same conclusion.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:45 am  

    I'm really not interested in getting into all of this and I'm sorry I even commented. To simplify, he can call ANY DAMN MAGAZINE . . .

    "Ernie Gary Gygax Jr. Magazine" and there's not a damn thing Gail can do about it. Believe it.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:49 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I'm really not interested in getting into all of this and I'm sorry I even commented. To simplify, he can call ANY DAMN MAGAZINE . . .

    "Ernie Gary Gygax Jr. Magazine" and there's not a damn thing Gail can do about it. Believe it.


    Nobody said otherwise. In fact, I made that same point in my first post in this thread. But that's not what they're calling it (and doing so would seem counterproductive, since their intent is obviously to capitalize on his father's name - while they may be technically naming it after him, Ernest Gygax Jr. is not the reason the name Gygax is marketable). The question is whether or not they'll be able to continue it calling it Gygax Magazine.

    Gygax Magazine was announced last November (at least, that's the earliest I heard of it), and Gail Gygax didn't apply for a trademark until the following March. So perhaps changing the name won't be necessary. I'm sure her claim will be that she had a preexisting game company called Gygax Games (even if it wasn't turning out any product), and that an RPG-themed magazine called Gygax dilutes her brand and clearly is meant to imply a relationship to her late husband that doesn't actually exist, even if two of the people involved happen to share that surname.

    We'll see what happens.


    Last edited by rasgon on Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:11 pm  

    Ernest Gary GYGAX Jr.
    MAGAZINE


    And that's how easily Gail is . . . Wink

    Got any idea how many people -- including those here -- would never even notice? Confused
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:22 pm  

    That'd be hilarious, but I don't think they're going to do that. The spirit of the law, as I understand it (again, I'm not a lawyer and quite possibly don't understand it) is that your brand names have to clearly not be trying to trick people into confusing your brand with another company's trademark (thus not putting golden arches over the name "McDonald's" if you're not the McDonald's Corporation). Writing GYGAX in a giant font and "Ernest Gary Jr." in tiny letters would pretty obviously be an attempt to mislead people who aren't looking at the magazine very carefully.

    My guess is that courts wouldn't look on that favorably. I think their best bet is to convince the courts that Gail Gygax's claim of a trademark in a field she's not publishing anything for is spurious.
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:36 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    Gygax Magazine was announced last November (at least, that's the earliest I heard of it), and Gail Gygax didn't apply for a trademark until the following March. So perhaps changing the name won't be necessary.

    Yeah, I was wondering about that. But she's had the estate for five years, why else would she suddenly apply for a trademark in 2013? It's also possible that a trademark application takes some time just to show up as "submitted." (Anyone here know?) In my experience registering copyrights, government offices are slow opening their mail and there's a considerable delay between submitting an application and seeing it pending on a database. If she had to get legal advice and roundup paperwork, that may have delayed the process too. 4.5 mouths seems like a reasonable amount of time for Gail to react.
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:48 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Ernest Gary GYGAX Jr.
    MAGAZINE


    And that's how easily Gail is . . . Wink

    Got any idea how many people -- including those here -- would never even notice? Confused

    The band Negativland tried that. They released a record with a giant "U2" on the cover followed by "Negativland" in smaller type. They tried to defend it by using a picture of a U2 spyplane for cover art. Needless to say, it went to court and they were utterly defeated (unfortunately).

    Like Rasgon says, this stuff all comes down to the "reasonable person" test. If a reasonable person is going to be confused, the rightful owner can claim a loss and probably win in court.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:24 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Gygax Magazine was announced last November (at least, that's the earliest I heard of it), and Gail Gygax didn't apply for a trademark until the following March. So perhaps changing the name won't be necessary.


    Sounds to me like the "new" TSR can claim Intellectual Property. If they can't use the name, neither can Gail. That is, she can't publish a "Gygax Magazine," the name wasn't her idea. She'd have to come up with her own name for a magazine.

    Besides, it sounds to me like Gail just wants her "20%" without having to actually work for it.
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:31 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    Sounds to me like the "new" TSR can claim Intellectual Property. If they can't use the name, neither can Gail. That is, she can't publish a "Gygax Magazine," the name wasn't her idea. She'd have to come up with her own name for a magazine.

    No one says she wants to make a magazine.
    Gail Gygax wrote:
    And furthermore would ask respect from his public and children from his first marriage, who are fully aware I own all rights to the use of his name and likeness, and all intellectual properties.
    (emphasis added)
    Whatever the trademark status is, if Gail can prove that she already owned the rights to Gygax's name and likeness, a reasonable person would agree that Gygax Magazine is infringing on that. FRPG products bearing "Gygax" connote with EGG much more than EGG JR.

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:

    Besides, it sounds to me like Gail just wants her "20%" without having to actually work for it.

    I don't want to turn this into a criticize-Gail-Gygax thread. There have been a lot of those and it's harmed relations between Gygax Games and Gary's fanbase. I'm not a fan of how Gary's IP has been handled so far, but I can see why Gail might behave as she is.

    Rasgon wrote:
    I think their best bet is to convince the courts that Gail Gygax's claim of a trademark in a field she's not publishing anything for is spurious.

    She put out that "Cheers Gary" compilation in 2011, so technically she beat TSR to the punch.

    Soo.........

    Any thoughts about the Castle Zagyg + Hasbro possibility?
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 2:33 pm  

    Sure. Gygax's estate is potentially her most valuable asset (as far as I know), and she'd like to license his name somehow, even if she hasn't been able to do that yet. So clearly she'd be interested in an RPG magazine called Gygax, her idea or not. If at all possible, she's going to try and get her cut. Marriage is a partnership, and courts are generally sympathetic to the idea that a widow is as entitled to her husband's name and assets as the husband was.

    I'm sure she'd like to make some sort of deal with Hasbro, too, if they're interested. I had heard (but can't cite any sources) that she was trying to get a video game made, too, and obviously she wouldn't say no to t-shirts, movies, magazines, or other merchandise if she can find a way to market them.

    It's like if Julian Lennon involved himself in something called Lennon Magazine, a journal of popular music with stylized John Lennon glasses in the logo. Yoko Ono knows perfectly well no one is involving him purely because of his own reputation, and she has the legal right to expect a cut from anything trading on John Lennon's name.

    Or if Ronald Prescott Reagan, son of the late president, tried to publish a political journal called Ronald Reagan Magazine, Nancy Reagan would probably have a case that people would reasonably assume the magazine had something to do with her husband and might expect to be compensated accordingly.
    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 4:17 pm  

    Those are all points well taken. The case would be stronger if the magazine wasn't "engaged" in the same work that E.G.G. was involved in -- gaming.

    For instance, my father's "limited fame" in the New Orleans area might make people want to look at my "magazine." My step-mother might well believe that is the reason people buy it and it might be true for some.

    But, if my magazine is a gaming magazine and my father's "fame" is from music, then my step-mother would certainly have no case. This is what I meant by "owning" the name. The name is only "owned" in connection with a specific thing, not everything.

    The problem for the Gygax brothers seems to be that they are in the same line of work as their father.
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    Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:50 pm  

    Rather telling that the applications for these trademarks were filed on March 4, 2013, after Gygax Magazine came out. I am no lawyer, but I am pretty sure that makes that trademark pretty much indefensible, at least so far as an RPG magazine is concerned. Not like they had, what, a year's warning that the magazine was coming out, did they? That makes me think that a lawyer recommended it, as we see that all of these filings were made after the magazine came out, and that they have hit pretty much everything a name could be printed on (so a standard procedure type of thing).

    Any of the Gygax family have equal individual rights to file for a trademark of the Gygax name, insofar as RPGs in general are concerned, so the links, while informative, are relatively worthless, as the name was already in print prior to the filing of at least the magazine (printed material). If they have Gygax Magazine shirts, mugs, key fobs, etc. too, well that trademark filing is pretty much garbage too I would think.

    And I hope I will eventually be able to get some Gygax Reeboks with a silhouette of Gary emblazoned with a d20 on them. Hey, nobody has filed for a trademark of Gary's silhouette yet, have they? I better get to filing! Laughing

    Any number of further jokes could be made about this, and the legal wrangling argued over (by laymen who really do not know everything they need to about he legality of things), but I sincerely hope that the Gygax family works everything out, and they all end up on the same page, because, if it gets ugly, the only ones who win are the lawyers.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Apr 12, 2013 7:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:26 am  

    I'm not an IP lawyer (it's a rather specialized niche area of law and typically boutique firms form just to focus on it) but from my limited knowledge, Rasgon's pretty much on the money with his analysis.
    GreySage

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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:30 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    . . . the only ones who win are the lawyers.


    With the fans as the losers.
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    Fri Apr 12, 2013 9:08 am  

    Complicated stuff.

    I wish Gail and Gary's Sons would be able to come together over this and provide some good gaming stuff for the fans instead.

    -Havard
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    Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:33 pm  

    Havard wrote:
    Complicated stuff.

    I wish Gail and Gary's Sons would be able to come together over this and provide some good gaming stuff for the fans instead.

    -Havard


    Well Said Havard!

    I came back to this thread to comment on DLG's listing of a link to Rob Kuntz blog. Then I see this whole legality issue brought forth on this thread. One thing's for certain Gary Gygax will not be present. Good thing, because I'm sure this would break his heart.

    Later

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    Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:39 pm  

    Well, Tiggertom just finished chatting with Ernie . . . they bought Gail off.

    Yes, they paid Gail to "go away."

    In addition, they're reopening the "Dungeon Hobby Shop" in Lake Geneva. Ernie operated the place back in the 80s and it sounds like he's going to do so again.

    So, all's well that ends well. Wink
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    Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:39 pm  

    MS,

    It's good that the issue is resolved. The dungeon hobby shop is reopening as well. Sounds like a D&D version of clerks.

    Later

    Argon
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    Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:37 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Well, Tiggertom just finished chatting with Ernie . . . they bought Gail off.

    Yes, they paid Gail to "go away."

    In addition, they're reopening the "Dungeon Hobby Shop" in Lake Geneva. Ernie operated the place back in the 80s and it sounds like he's going to do so again.

    So, all's well that ends well. Wink

    Link? And who's Tiggertom?
    GreySage

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    Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:01 pm  

    vestcoat wrote:
    Link? And who's Tiggertom?


    Sorry, no link . . . Skype.

    And "Tiggertom" is his Canonfire avatar. He's on Greychat as TT. He's my roommate, or rather, I'm currently staying with him and his wife, who were kind enough to offer me a place when I had none.

    So again, sorry, no link. He and Ernie chat on Skype a couple of times a week. Ernie just gave him the information earlier this evening. Cool
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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:56 am  

    Hopefully everyone is happy with things. I wish I knew about that hobby shop back in the 80's. I could have gone there a few times when I was visiting my relatives in WI.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:23 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I wish I knew about that hobby shop . . . I could have gone there . . . visiting my relatives in WI.


    If only . . .

    It was there in the 90s too, when I was driving for Schneider Transportation out of Green Bay. Lost count of how many times I was in that neck of the woods. Sad

    If only . . .

    One of life's "missed treasures," Ceb. I feel your pain! Cry
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    Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:39 am  

    Ernie said he thinks the situation with Gail is 'resolved', as in some form of compensation or deal, I do not know ANY of the details. To quote Ernie: "Gail -- I believe -- has accepted some small pay off rather than fight a losing stupid battle". I'm not sure WHERE the Dungeon Hobby Shop is re-opening, only that Ernie is a partner. The other partner lives in BC Canada. Anything beyond that is mere speculation and I have no other details.

    TT
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