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    Canonfire :: View topic - Ninja Problems - Help?
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    Ninja Problems - Help?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:25 am  
    Ninja Problems - Help?

    I have a ninja problem. My problem is the ninja base class as presented in the Complete Adventurer book from Wotc. Attempting to get my monies worth from this lackluster product, I find the ninja class, expecially if paired up with Infiltrator PrC (technically a "Nightsong" Infiltrator), has some significant NPC potential. Here is my problem.

    Do "ninjas" "fit" in Greyhawk? Wait, before you answer.

    Yes. Ninjas are "oriental." No. Greyhawk is not an "oriental" setting in that way. But . . .

    Has the word "ninja" and the concept of "ninja" become so homogenized or popularized that they and the term are now so divorced from their origins that they can "fit" anywhere?

    Part of me wants to say, "yes." There are those Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. There are Daredevil and Electra's ninja. And there are all those bearded, balding, middle-age spreading "white guys" who have declared themselves "ninjas" or masters of "ninjitsu" and will teach you for only a nominal fee after which you can, presumably, wreck havoc on neighborhood. Along that line, "ninjas" pop up in all manner of books, comics, movies and television shows divorced from their origins. They have been "mainstreamed" to a degree. Is that degree sufficient to allow them to be used in GH without a thought to their "oriental" origins?

    Another part of me wants to say "no." Not because ninja are not overexposed. I think they are overexposed. But rather because they are so overexposed that they are a "joke." And then there is still a connection to an "oriental" origin to consider as well.

    Has anyone used "ninja" in Greyhawk? Do you think their use "appropriate" or "inappropriate?" And why?

    GVD
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    Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:58 am  
    Yes and No

    Yes and No, I have used ninja.

    Depending on how you mean using them. If you mean using the Complete adventurer class, no I have not.

    If you mean using an assasin who penetrates the seemingly impossible fortress, slays an enemy leader, and exfiltrates the building, yes on several occasions.

    They should be a master of disguise, skilled in some magics, and able to climb seemingly impossible walls.

    That is all possible for a rogue or a bard/rogue and a PrC that allows use of poison, you are there. And I do not see where a another class is needed. With appropriate skill selections, a few spells and sneak attacks, a costume, split toed shoes and a bandanna, you have a ninja.

    So, i guess my question is, which do you wish to accomplish, using the PrC, or having the societal slot taken up?

    I do not see a place in GH for a traditional Ninjitsu Martial Artist, and in my campaign, I cannot find a Story reason to add such a being.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:08 am  

    Hi A-M,

    I mean ninjas as ninjas. Called ninjas in the game. Wearing "ninja clothes." And using "ninja weapons." Not just a stealthy assassin.

    Has "ninja" become a generic enough term? Like "druid?"

    GVD
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    Wed Jan 19, 2005 11:15 am  
    I plamn on using them

    Hello,

    I plan on using them just like real ninjas that we've all come to know and love. I have a group of "eastern" folks living in Greyhawk. They blend in with everyone else that their features are dismissed as some baklunish/flan mix. So while they act like everyone else, they are the assassins guilds direct competitor. Oddly enough, no one is looking at those simple tea merchants who eek out a existence in the working quarter. Anyway, the ninjas I will use are hard core ninjas that *will* kill you dead. It's great.

    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:00 pm  

    If I were you I'd go and get the 2E Complete Ninja's Handbook and look through their for advice. I do know a DM who used them as a monastary on a mountian overlooking a village, they were extremely secretive and no one ever went up there.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 19, 2005 8:32 pm  

    Where to start . . .

    First, I find most of the new base classes unbalanced, so I would recommend against them to begin with.

    Second, I find the culturally linked base and prestige classes to be typically even more unbalanced outside their culture, so I would recommend against them again.

    Third, aside from the term being near-generic these days, most of the so-called "ninja specific" items simply aren't. Equivalents of a majority of them exist in other cultures, and have for quite a long time. As such, I would recommened "de-ninja-fying" most all of them, and making them standard for the setting. Indeed, I would recommend the same for the allegedly monk specific items as well. Creating some exclusive status for them is not only silly, but in several cases directly contradictory to other stated rules elements.

    If you really want ninjas, just use Rogue/Shadowdancer/Assassins and leave it at that. (Ignoring of course that Assassins were originally a culturally specific class, and Shadowdancers are just excessive and better assassins than Assassins.)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:42 am  

    Personal opinion here, but I think the Complete Adventurer (or even OA) Ninja fits quite well in the Scarlet Brotherhood. If you change the steroetype from an Asian culture (which doesn't seem to exist in the Flaness) to a secretive Suel culture, I think it works just fine.

    It's the other Asian-based classes that I'm having problems justifying. Baklunish Samauri?!? Flan Shugenja?!? Rhenee Wu Jen?!? I don't see it, but maybe I'm missing something. Coming from "a land across the sea" would work, but I can't see it "catching on" enough to be in competition with a paladin, cleric, or wizard.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:49 am  

    Well, I have no ninjas in my campaign. I am using the ninja base class to represent a "Baklunish Assassin". The name is gone, but the abilities are the same. I changed the weapons available to the base class to scimitar, kukri, punching dagger, garrote, darts, whip, and a few other specialty weapons. The visual appearance of them is obviously different from "ninjas" also. Overall, the players had no idea of what they were actually facing. The "Baklunish Assassin" works well, has an exotic feel to it that sets it apart from the standard assassin prestige class, and also has an air of mystery about it. I did not pattern them off of the historical Arabic assassin organiztion of the middle ages though(called the Hashishin I think, or something similar). It is an effective npc type. It also combines well with the Dervish prestige class(a whirling Dervish assassin!!!).

    I find that there are many things in the Complete Adventure to make use of, alter, or build off of. That is about all I can hope for in a book these days. I bought it for what I saw as its possible uses. Is it a 100% badass book? No, but it has enough potential to make it worthwhile.

    Its Greyhawk. Just say no to ninjas.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 20, 2005 3:04 am  

    I think there is one instance where a ninja as the black clad oriental warrior would fit in. In the thread about Baklunish religion I commented that Xan Yae and Zuoken did not seem to fit with the other Baklunish deities. Xan Yae has an Oriental feel as opposed to the Arabic feel of the other Baklunish deities. In my campaign her worship came from further West by a group of exiles and although incorporated into the Baklunish faith have maintained a number of their former traditions.

    Xan Yae as the goddess of shadows, twilight, stealth and mental mastery provides a perfect background for a greyhawk ninja. Perhaps there is but one ninja school/order in the Flanaess. They are reserved for special missions for Xan Yae but spend most of their time in training and meditation. It would be possible to have a rogue ninja from this group or perhaps one who is adventuring on the behest of Xan Yae for whatever reason.

    I would agree with the general consensus that any other use of a ninja should be drawn from a mix of other classes such as rogue, monk and shadowdancer. Incidentally - shadowdancer would make a perfect prestige class for a ninja. In the Xan Yae scenario perhaps some older ninjas, such as the leaders of the order go on to take levels in cleric of Xan Yae?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 20, 2005 12:18 pm  

    Two more cents:

    I've always felt ninjas (and samurai) were a poor fit in GH, and always said no to PCs that wanted to play them.

    First, I think they're culturally out of place; I don't think ninjas have become "homogenized" so that they represent a generic element of fantasy milieux. Perhaps the Baklunish represent a way out of that; they've always struck me as a mixture of Middle and Far Eastern components.

    I also think there's plenty in the PH and DMG to make whatever you want, whether it's a mysterious assassin with special powers or whatever -- especially with the flexibility of the d20 system. Fighters in particular have access to so many feats that you can make them into anything.

    So I'd ask: what can existing classes not do that you want ninjas to do?

    For whatever it's worth :)

    Regards all,

    Jack
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:54 pm  
    In Review

    In reviewing this thread, i think i have changed my mind. I said earlier that the iconic ninja seem to have no place. However, if you wish, i think you could make a convcing story line for a small sect that has travelled through the Baklunish lands and now reside in the Flaness (i almost said here?!?). They could retain their traditions and way of life, without revealing their nature.

    Again, i would use traditional PC/PrC class combinations.

    However, I think that such effort would be more rewarding if you turned it to creating something new. A sect of people who fill the role ninja's supposedly filled in feudal japan, but is totally new. The various existing classes could fill all of the ability needs quite well.

    Also, several months past I had a post asking how DM's had integrated shadowdancers into GH. The response was that they generally had not. That could be a basis, but this group uses only a particular weapon, as a tradition maybe. Or do it out of religious rites, ties to the plane of shadow, etc...

    A recent thread on Nazis/Suel highlighted the trap of recreating Earth roles faithfully in GH. When you do, you can get the bad and the good, and it still may not fit.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:13 am  
    Ninjas

    Hi Guys!

    I've got a map of Oerik that I got off the net somewhere that shows the lands of Nippon, somewhere to the south and west. I don't know how official this map is or even, for that matter, who created it. Just seems to me that this is an obvious Japan wannabe. Therefore, with a bit of planning, I guess you could use a very travelled, oriental-styled ninja.

    I personally wouldn't include a ninja character in my campaign but rather some blend of a rogue/monk/assassin or some such. I really think that there are a lot of uses for oriental characters and they certainly can add flavour but they don't fit into my idea of a pseudo-European Greyhawk. I prefer the idea of the Baklunish Assassin, even if it is just a name change.

    -Darrel
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    Fri Jan 21, 2005 6:06 am  

    thinking about the ninja thing some more - whilst I totally agree that the ninja does not seem very in keeping with the medieval feel of Greyhawk I would almost argue that that is all the more reason to allow one in the game should a player wish it.

    I happened to watch during my lunch break some of the old 80s tv series of Robin of Sherwood (not sure if any of you have seen this). In it is the character Nasir...a warrior from the Holy Lands that returned with Robin after the crusades. SO we have a Moorish warrior in Medieval England and it provides a very interesting character that only seem sout of place as he is of a culture unseen in that land and that time. I believe that the film Robin Hood Prince of Thieves used the same thing of a Moor in England.

    So a ninja in the game could provide a great roleplaying opportunity for a player. The thing is it only really works well if you dont have a group full of misfits as if often want to happen!

    So I would like to argue that if a player wishes to be a ninja then let them and take it as a great chance for some roleplaying as the game is more about that than rules. You just have to make sure that there is a feasible background and I think a few good ideas have been put forward in this thread.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Jan 21, 2005 8:37 pm  

    Wolfling:

    Your example of Robin of Sherwood having a Moorish ally present would more closely parallel a Bakluni being in the lands of the Great Kingdom. Great Kingdom folk may have heard of the Balunish, but do they see one every day, or even every year? Probably not.

    Putting in something that doesn't exist goes a bit beyond this example.

    To put it another way, lets put a Suel in Robin of Sherwood. Its about the same thing as putting a ninja in Greyhawk.

    Putting the real world ninja in the fantasy realm of Greyhawk correlates to putting the fantasy Suel in the real world. In either case, one was not made for the other, and does not fit in very well as they are written.
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    Fri Jan 21, 2005 10:36 pm  

    Cebrion, just to clarify, 'cause I'm not an expert on Canon:

    There is no place on the planet that has an Asian culture?

    I'm curious, because in 1985 when Oriental Adventures was released, Greyhawk was the only published campaign setting; Forgotten Realms was still two years away. I find it odd that Gygax would have written an entire book full of Asian options for a setting that didn't exist yet. But he did have a wacky sense of humor... Smile

    Now the 1988 boxed set placed Oriental Adventures firmly in Forgotten Realms. And I couldn't find mention of either Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms in the 3.0 Oriental Adventures book. Does this mean that a DM sticking to canon can't use Asian influences because they have no place in Greyhawk?

    If there has been clarification on that, or if the regions outside of the Darlene map have been defined, can you point me in the right direction? That stuff would really help out my understanding of Greyhawk.

    Just sitting here with a comet, ready to blot that Asian stuff I added in '85 from my campaign... Confused
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:25 am  

    I like your tactful, yet tongue-in-cheek statements!!! Happy

    Your points are very valid, but Oriental Adventures was published as its own optional rules set. There was no campaign world that they were specifically set in (until later), so anybody could put them wherever they wanted too. At that specific time, EGG was not exactly coughing up phlegmy goodness regarding all of the lands outside of the Darlene map. Could there be a Faux-Asian culture somewhere in the world of Oerth? Certainly. Is it mentioned anywhere in any Greyhawk material up to the date of the OA's publication? No. But Greyhawk has monks you say. Well, they are an oddity in the Players Handbook to say the least, and have always been difficult to explain away. They do not really fit in with the other classes. But they are there, so many people made excuses to include them in their campaigns. Greyhawk actually made a place for them.

    As to Greyhawk, only two cultures have monks specifically mentioned within their religion/culture (Baklunish- Xan Yae, Zuoken; Seuloise- Scarlet Brotherhood). Certain heroes or divinities have monk levels to describe their abilities, even though they might not be of Baklunish or Seul origin. These characters were always described as having abilities that were exceptions to the general rule anyways. Years later, we have been able to gather more hints about lands outside the Darlene map that are very likely Asian/Oriental in their style of culture(based on the similarity the names of these lands share with real-world Eastern nations.

    Considering the mysterious and yet to be developed lands outside of the Darlene map, and the obvious Asian/Oriental influence they would probably have, I will revise my previous statement. Greyhawk may have "ninjas", but for them to show up in the Flanaess would be like a Leif Eriksson showing up at a Native American camp. They would be so rare that you might only see a few of them in 500 years.

    Of course, yours can always be the campaign that a ninja “just happens" to show up in.

    For me, I’ve got enough on my hands with what is going on in the Flanaess to even consider the mysterious lands outside of the Darlene map...and my campaign has been active since 1987(though I've played since 1978). In any event, were I to use ninjas in my campaign, they would not be called “ninjas”, and they wouldn’t visually look exactly like a “ninja”, as to me this real-world addition would detract from the fantastical elements of the World of Greyhawk.

    As I mentioned earlier, I do use a heavily altered Ninja base class as a Baklunish Assassin in my campaign. For the Seul, I build their counter-version of the Baklunish Assassin by combining Monk and Rogue levels with Assassin prestige class levels. Each has their very own distinct flavor. The Seul Assassin stays to its cultural (mainly Scarlet Brotherhood) traditions. As Baklunish traditions are not very well covered whatsoever within Greyhawk, I created my own. The grandmaster of the Baklunish Assassins doesn't live in a mountain-top fortress with a" garden flowing with milk and honey" though. Wink
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    Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:29 am  

    Three words...

    Fate of Istus.

    Laughing

    Anyhow, yeah ninjas are improbable not impossible in GH, but rather than harp over campaign inclusiveness I'd be more keen on why this class is being brought into a campaign to begin with. Is it the kewl factor? Is it to be different? Is the class game breaking? Is there even a sliver of background truly in mind before the character is made? Will this ninja lead to more quirky classes to further muddy the GH feel in your campaign?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 3:02 am  

    Cebrion, you kinda missed my point and maybe I should have also included bits of my previous post. The example of Robin Hood and the Moor was simply to illustrate the interest of having a character from one culture found as an interestint foreigner in another and the roleplaying opportunities that that could provide for a player...this is roleplaying after all :o)

    I did not mean that an Asian based character should appear in Greyhawk. In my earlier post I had described how I believed a ninja could fit into the Greyhawk setting...in this description I suggested that they could be Baklunish followers of Xan Yae the worship of who may indeed have come from further West but had become incorporate dinto Baklunish religion centuries previous.

    The ninja is not a race but a profession or even a path through life you could say. A ninja character would not walk down a street in the Flanaess and be instantly recognised as such...and he is hardly going to prance around the market place in broad daylight in black ninja garb. Instead the ninja I am suggesting from my previous post would appear Baklunish and so in this respect my Robin Hood example serves adequately.

    But my point still remains that such a character would provide an interesting roleplaying opportunity in a game but it is obviously down to the DM to decide how such a character would fit into their campaign. At the end of the day I think there is a risk that canon can start to detract from the creativity of a game. This isn't a history assignment it's a fantasy roleplying game with dragons and pixies and trolls. As long as you can weave a character such as a ninja into the game without compromising the feel of the setting you are trying to achieve then why not have a ninja.

    If you don't think you can do that it's pretty simple...don't use a ninja :o)

    I do apologise however if my example was a little unclear :o)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 9:34 am  

    Wolfling, I think you've got the right idea there, and I like your Moor comparision.

    Cebrion, thank's for the clarification. There's a big hole in my Canon tapestry, and I'm trying to stitch it back together.

    Oh, and millions of people under that comet I mentioned thank you, too. Happy
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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 12:06 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Three words...

    Fate of Istus.

    Laughing

    Anyhow, yeah ninjas are improbable not impossible in GH, but rather than harp over campaign inclusiveness I'd be more keen on why this class is being brought into a campaign to begin with. Is it the kewl factor? Is it to be different? Is the class game breaking? Is there even a sliver of background truly in mind before the character is made? Will this ninja lead to more quirky classes to further muddy the GH feel in your campaign?


    My thought was to use ninjas as NPCs, not as PCs. I suppose there is an element of "kewl." There is also an element of "different," at least from GH Classic. My greatest thought, however, was that the ninja base class seemed to work rather well and might then be usefully imported into a GH DMs arsenal, all things being equal, if ninja would "fit" in GH. Certainly, before I would bring anything like this in, I would develop a backstory for it.

    You have with your question, however, scratched beneath the surface of "The Ninja Problem." There is equally "A Hexblade Problem." "A Warlock Problem." "A Green Star Adept Problem." "A Marshall Problem." Etc.

    If, as I believe, a more than passing case can be made for all default 3rd Edition material being placed in GH (read the intro of the D&D GH Gaz, not the LLG), then the question becomes, as it relates particularly to more notable material, how this is to be accomplished. While I dislike the notion of "canon" as it is too often thought to refer to an immutable what is and what must be, I will now use the term. There is, IMO, a whole new canon of GH material that is being largely ignored in a fit of pique, more or less rationalized, or because it is inconvenient or because it is not "easy" to deal with or because it requires buying a whole bunch of books that not everyone will be able to afford. All these are, IMO, lousey reasons for flushing the matter with a sniff of the upturned nose. You want canon? There is an "S" "H" "I" "T" load of it in 3rd edition waiting to be more fully integrated and explained within the setting.

    To me, this is one of the most fascinating intellectual exercises out there.

    There is, of course, resort to a quick - it will not all fit without wrecking the setting - that is not without merit, until one understands that the Flanaess is not all of Oerth and we have some rather specific information about the remainder of Oerik, although much of it is conflicted or slightly defined in places.

    When "canon" is that old saw about "Talmudic" pouring over old GH products, I have no real interest. When "canon" is a "defining" of GH "reality" by reference or extrapolation of old GH material, I have little more interest. When "canon" includes a substantial "unknown," now I am interested. We have that and I think it hypocritical to "ignore" 3rd Edition "canon" because it is neither neatly captured nor neatly presented.

    My Ninja inquiry is part of a much greater personal inquiry. The Ninja, however, because of their real world associations that spring readily to mind, have a unique set of ponderables, which I am greatful for people pondering in this thread. But you Mortellan have espied my greater inquiry. Happy Whether anyone else is going to imagine GH richly, it is my intent. Happy

    GVD
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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:47 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Quote:
    You have with your question, however, scratched beneath the surface of "The Ninja Problem." There is equally "A Hexblade Problem." "A Warlock Problem." "A Green Star Adept Problem." "A Marshall Problem." Etc.


    I see this as more a DM's option that should be left to the myraid tables and players. Each person is going to view and use these 'add-on's differently and as such its hard to reach a hard answer on how useful these new classes and PrC's are going to be to GH, each one will find a home in someones game or be ignored and left to the wayside. While its good to discuss how and what effect having these new classes I dont think they give a clear indication that they are any more GH specific than any others posed in the DMG.

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Quote:
    When "canon" is that old saw about "Talmudic" pouring over old GH products, I have no real interest. When "canon" is a "defining" of GH "reality" by reference or extrapolation of old GH material, I have little more interest. When "canon" includes a substantial "unknown," now I am interested. We have that and I think it hypocritical to "ignore" 3rd Edition "canon" because it is neither neatly captured nor neatly presented.


    What canon means to me at least is a starting point, a base point to begin making GH your own. While looking at older things sometimes falls into nostalgic fancies, it is also a good way to come up with new ideas and using past adventures and text to help expand GH as it grows. Canon should not be a straight jacket but a sort of 'point zero' that can be called to as a reference so any DM can then point out "In my campaign.." discussions as where their interpretation differs or redirects certain key events or rules.
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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 5:57 pm  
    Agree and Disagree

    I agree and disagree with many of the points made so far in this wonderful thread.

    I have taken my own observations to the side thread that you have started GVD.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:09 pm  
    2nd Reply

    I have posted a second reply to address the initial topic of discussion.. Ninjas. To me it breaks down to two questions GVD. Do you wish to alter the story so that you introduce Ninjas; Do you wish to add the mechanics for the Ninja Prestige Class. These are two different questions.

    Personally I would not add the second without either a) creating a detailed backstory for 80's style movie ninjas in GH, or; b) creating a storyline that uses the PrC without letting the players know that that is what is being used against them.

    As many players are rules lawyers, I prefer the second option, and this slips one over on them. However, I really don't care, as long as your group enjoys it. If they do, well, you found the right answer. But you knew that I think.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:23 am  

    With regard to the "ninja", the real-world pre-disposition of how we all view what a "ninja" is colors our view of them being used, or not used, in our own campaigns.

    As I said earlier, I do use "ninjas" in my campaign, but they visually look nothing like a real world "ninja". They are also not called "ninjas". Most of their base powers are the same, but the weapons they use are mostly different, and a few of the class abilities are as well. They are of Baklunish origin and members of death cult. They are fanatics and would kill themselves before allowing themselves to be captured. They also have affiliations with no other power or political entity. They are fully autonomous, fully professional, and cannot be bought off. Once a contract is paid, only the contractor may call off the contract. The guild will complete its contract no matter how many assassins it has to dispatch. So, it’s very bad to be a target of this guild, as they will deplete their entire membership if necessary(which of course has never been necessary) just to kill a target and maintain their guild honor.

    As much as I like the way "ninjas" are portrayed in cinema (I prefer those in Lone Wolf and Cub to those in American Ninja- as I'm sure most people do), I won't portray them in this way in my GH campaign, as I see all the campy baggage attached to the term "ninja" detracting from the GH campaign background.

    Robert E. Howard built much of his fantasy world based on real-world geography and using names that were similar to real-world peoples or nations, or names from the legends of various real-world cultures. Even though some of this has been done with the lands outside the Darlene map, the Flanaess has remained wholly unique in the creation of its named regions, such that I do not identify any of these lands with "ninjas".

    One can argue and compare the various human peoples in GH with real-world cultures until the end of time. The Baklunish combine Eastern and Middle-eastern cultural influences. Do I see them in Samurai armor, or looking like Huns, or even like Bedouins? Not really. I see them as what they are- a conglomeration of all those things, incorporating all of them but not being recognizable as any single one of them. "Ninjas" have a very definite look about them. The name "ninja" itself carries a load of pre-conceived notions. While I use them, I use them as I perceive them to fit into GH, as a conglomeration of Middle-eastern and Eastern influences, hence my version of them are Baklunish in origin. It is of note that I do not play up any notion of a martial arts/monk style of combat for these Baklunish Assassins. I like the ninja-style abilities, but I feel I have succeeded in incorporating them into my GH campaign when my players aren't saying "Look! We're fighting those ninja- guys again!"

    That is my take on how the "Ninja" doesn't and does fit into GH for me.

    I cerainly like discussing topics like this.
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