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    Canonfire :: View topic - No Drow subrace
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Greyhawk- Heresy!
    No Drow subrace
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    From: New Jersey

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    Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:50 am  
    No Drow subrace

    Those of you who know me are quite familiar with my take on elves.

    However, I wonder how many other people decided to not utilize the Drow as a subrace of elves and instead do like me and make them elves who have turned to evil or turned away from elven tradition and been cast out from elven society?

    IMC Valley Elves are the one subrace which accept all elven-kind and never cast out their kind. Choosing to allow them to exist as they see fit focusing on the freedom of choice in their society.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Sep 09, 2009
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    Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:16 pm  

    I think that Krynn (Dragonlance) has omitted dark elves, drow, as a subrace, too, Argon. In that realm, it is my understanding that 'dark elves' are surface elves who have turned to 'the darkside' (a la Sith).

    Perhaps you are a closet "Krynnite" in disguise? Wink

    Me? I use drow elves, though I hate the overuse of them and their seeming invincibility as seen by the dark elves of Faerun (Forgotten Realms) b/c of Drizzt... Mad If they were so damned amazing, why didn't they wipe out the surface elves, after all.... gggggrrrrr....

    -Lanthorn


    Last edited by Lanthorn on Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:30 pm  

    I'm with Lanthorn on this. I love using dark elves as a high-level opponent. I do not like throwing low-level dark elves against low-level PCs. I want the PCs to dread, or highly anticipate, their first chance to challenge such mythical boogymen.

    In my campaign, however, they are few and far between. They congregate in large cities, like Erehlie Cinlu, because they have too many enemies, even in deepOerth, to survive spread out in smaller enclaves. But, such cities are few beneath the Flanaess. I dislike the plethora of drow cities in the underdark beneath Faerun's surface. As depicted in the more recent R.A. Salvatore books on the subject, there are so many drow beneath Faerun and they are so powerful that they have their fingers in a large number of surface pies and it is only a matter of time before they completely control all the surface races. Evil

    I like Erehlei Cinlu as one of a only a half-dozen such drow societies within the entire Flanaess. Two powerful to snuff, but not powerful enough to pose a serious threat to surface nations.

    SirXaris
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:03 pm  

    I just never cared for all the subraces. If drow are so much more powerful then their surfacer counterparts then why are the surface elves not in hiding?

    Fact is a good idea was blown apart and I decided that less is more IMC. However, I have expanded the role of dwarves IMC. So Derro and Duegar play a bigger role for my underground games.

    Later

    Argon
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    Joined: Oct 03, 2011
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    Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:31 pm  

    I saw this (old) thread and had to reply. I really disliked how Drow just became "dude, so for my character, I'm going to play (yet another) an outcast Drow who has come to the surface world to adventure and find a way to make peace with others. Of course, I have managed to find a special pair of goggles that let me see in daylight and I wear this suntan lotion that prevents the sun's rays from causing me discomfort, so you know, I get all the bonuses and none of the penalties..."

    UA made things messy enough with all these stat and racial tweaks and to be honest I was fine with someone playing a drow but they had to play the weaknesses part to the hilt. No magic glasses, no suntan lotion, no way around their weaknesses and especially the fact that everywhere they went, if they weren't outright attacked, people would hate them. I mean, you think half-orcs have a rough time, they are in Disneyland compared to the way a Drow would be received.

    I get why the kids wanted "the ebon-skinned, silver haired, purple-eyed" look, it's pretty bad **** quite frankly amazing stat bonuses notwithstanding but with FR and D'rizzt (sp?) that just messed it up.

    I now only allow Drow if the campaign is primarily underground, on another plane or in Ravenloft. Mostly because players won't accept the penalties so that kind of works itself out.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: May 26, 2013
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    Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:32 pm  

    You gotta admit Jarlaxle is a pretty sweet character :P

    The only drow I ever played, was in a two pc campaign, Our drow were twins male and female, and they were on a quest for power on the surface. I was a rogue and she was a wizard. They didn't come to the surface to play nice with the elves and humans, they worked their way into human society via the darker nature of humans. Advanced through the criminal world, gained power and then tried to take control and start wars.

    I was also part of the counterpart to that campaign, a group of 5 that were combating the efforts of the drow twins, this was started after the drow gained power (evil twin campaign was level 15 when this one started)

    The good guys eventually killed the twins, but they put up a good fight. Both of my characters ended up dying in the fight (WOO). haha.

    But yeah the "hero" drow were overused but I don't think that is any reason to keep them out.

    In another campaign, we started out fighting the drow, and eventually my high elf fighter/mage was basically a High Elf Nazi at first. By the end of the campaign my character had met the original drow who was cursed by Lloth via planar travel and learned the story of Drow creation. Restored Lloth to her throne, and married a Drow. My character was working to reunite the surface elves and the drow and part of helping Lloth was that any of her people that was that to leave drow subterranean society would be allowed to do so, and could learn of the surface elf gods.

    There are plenty of uses for the drow is what I'm getting at, in either FR, Greyhawk, or any other setting.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 10, 2013
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    Wed Dec 11, 2013 3:56 am  

    I use to play a female half-drow character. She was the blood-sister of a male half-fey elf. Their father was a lusty Baklunish adventurer.

    She was NE and suffered the drow wicknesses. She was my favorite character to this day.

    I like the Drow as they are described as a sub-race of the elves for I could not understand why being evil would blacken their skin, redden their eyes, and whiten their hair.

    Maybe you could just say... SUIM (Shut Up! It's Magic.)
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Wed Dec 11, 2013 2:07 pm  

    Spellaeon wrote:
    I like the Drow as they are described as a sub-race of the elves for I could not understand why being evil would blacken their skin, redden their eyes, and whiten their hair.


    I don't mind Drow being an elven subrace because it is easy to justify the physical changes as being divine in nature (i.e. Lolth caused the changes in order to mark them as her own, or Corellan did so to curse them and mark them as betrayers to the elven race).

    I will point out that most drow are not more powerful than their elven counterparts, as Argon feared. According to D3, The Vault of the Drow, wherein they were originally presented, most drow commoners are zero-level with no innate spell-like abilities. They do possess 50% magic resistance, but that is attributed to the magical emanations native to the Vault itself, not to any inherent racial trait. It is likely that Lolth led her various bands of followers to such locations for that reason, so any drow raised in such a location enjoys that special ability, but that is just a fluff justification for it.

    Only the drow nobles and those commoners they sponsor at the two Fighting Academies, the Mage Academy, and the Church of Lolth have much in the way of levels. You would find the same top-down power pyramid in a surface elven kingdom. It's just that you aren't going to encounter any zero- or first-level drow outside of the Vault - simply because it is much too dangerous and they would only get themselves killed.

    SirXaris
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 10, 2013
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    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:34 am  

    Anyhow, Drow are not that powerful. People make them more powerful.

    In 3rd ed., they have an ajustment level of +1 so a 1st level Drow fighter is CR 2 because of his magic resistance and spell-like abilities. But once its globe of darkness has been cast, it becomes a CR 1. If anyone who attacks it has the blind-fight feat, it remains a CR 1 for the whole enconter.

    Also, there are ways to pass their natural magic resistance, such as feats. And those feats are not only useful against Drow.

    So, Drow are not that powerful.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 10, 2003
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    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:56 am  

    It seems my comments were not taken at face value. As has been mentioned Drow are a +1 level adjustment. If Drow which the rules say are a whole level more powerful then elves. Why are they the ones in hiding? I'm not saying that the drow are overpowered. I'm merely stating that the game states as a whole a typical drow is more powerful than a typical elf, human, dwarf, halfling, half-orc and half-elf. Not my rules just the rules of the game if you prescribe to the rules as written.

    A friend of mine made his drow in his campaign albino with pink eyes devoid of pigment due to their lack of exposure to Corellon's light. Most will darken their skin to protect it from Corellon's gaze. Though when encountered underground they avoid such protections as their is no need for it. I thought was a good explanation for the white hair and red eyes.

    I preferred them as the mysterious outcast race of elves they were. The abundance of drow related material makes me want to fill the red sea with chum. That's were my dislike of drow and elves in general come from. I have several other reasons as well. However, I not here to bash those that enjoy them. Whatever floats your boat. Their just not getting on my ship.

    Later

    Argon
    Paladin

    Joined: Sep 07, 2011
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    Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:51 am  

    Don't Know How I missed this thread,thanks Inadvertantlly to Spellaeon introducing herself (newbie) and reviewing her posts helped me discover this one. Thanks Spellaeon and welcome to the forum.

    Like others have mentioned, I also am not a big fan of the plethera of "subraces". Especially when there is the following habit to turn them into PCs.
    Hollywood, Michael Moorcock, R. A. Salvatore, Stephenie Meyer, and others have all added to this.

    Elric of Melniboné, was really an anti-hero that hated the possession of his sword. While Drizzt Do'Urden started as a supporting character not a centralized one in the Icewind Dale stories. IMO these character types are best served as supporting roles and nemesis roles. And last but not least Edward Cullin... sorry my vampires don't TWINKLE or SPARKLE.

    While IMC I do have the underdark, like Argon, it is a secretive place. It certainly wouldn't be if I allow a PC to wander to and frow because a player wants one.
    Argon wrote:

    I preferred them as the mysterious outcast race of elves they were. The abundance of drow related material makes me want to fill the red sea with chum. That's were my dislike of drow and elves in general come from. I have several other reasons as well. However, I not here to bash those that enjoy them. Whatever floats your boat. Their just not getting on my ship.
    My ship has sailed as well.

    If we turn all the arc-type monsters into PCs there is little left to challenge the PCs with.

    It should be viewed in the same light as keeping a tiger as a pet. I live in Texas, which surprisingly has more tigers than most countries, including where they are from. (see Tigers n Texas if your curious) They are NOT pets, they are beautiful, ferocious, terrible, frightening creatures that should be left to the wilds of the world..... just as the drow.

    I have of late learned (since my table is now 70% hairlings) there is a desire to embrace the unique (not only for the afore mentioned appeals generated by books and movies), but to gain an edge.
    Often new players seem to want the bonuses that the creature may be intitaled but don't want the maladies that should also accompany that choice.

    In this case I would impose -2 to everything the drow did in daylight not just skills. I would maintain the separation of arcane and divine based on gender. I would give them light blindness to sudden exposures of light. I would make their use of poisons no better or worse than anyone elses since they have no access to poisons they are accustom to. If 3.xx I would impose negative to knowlege local (since they are not "local"), Diplomacy (based on reputation), etc.

    My two CP
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 10, 2013
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    Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:25 am  

    Drow already have that disadvantage:

    Light Blindness (Ex): Abrupt exposure to bright light (such as sunlight or a daylight spell) blinds a drow for 1 round. In addition, drow take a –1 circumstance penalty on all attack rolls, saves, and checks while operating in bright light.

    But Argon, if you dislike them so much, why don't you just use the main elf type and replace the Low-light vision with the Darkvision and had the Lightblindness. This would explain the reason why they stay underground.

    Drow are meant to be monsters, not player characters. But maybe it was something alot of people asked for for they did a book about how to change a monster into a creature.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:48 pm  

    Drow IMC are simply elves who have strayed from the elven ways. They have been cast out from elven society. Many huddle among other societies far from their former elven homeland.

    So IMC Drow are merely evil elves or elves who have committed crimes which got them ousted from their society. I don't care much for elves either. But that's well known by those who know me.

    Later

    Argon
    GreySage

    Joined: Jul 26, 2010
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    Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:02 pm  

    Argon wrote:
    Drow IMC are simply elves who have strayed from the elven ways. They have been cast out from elven society. Many huddle among other societies far from their former elven homeland.


    Argon is a closet Krynnite. Laughing

    SirXaris
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:43 pm  

    No Krynnites like elves, I don't.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 15, 2013 2:53 am  

    IMO if Gygax had made the elves as powerful as the Drow, and thougher dwarfs, gnomes and halflings to survive those elves, they would all have been considered only monsters-as the Drow are suppose to be-and players would have no other choice but to play human characters.

    Those races were averaged to human so that players could play diffrent races.

    Drow are suppose to be monsters, like I said earlier. And monsters are suppose to be a challenge for characters for they are suppose to have powers and abilities that the characters do not have.

    That is why I do not mind if Drow are stronger than the elves.

    Through this thread, I just gave myself an idea about a new goal for the drow. Instead of trying to conquer the elves, they might try to destroy the real enemy who prevents them from ruling over the whole Oerth: the Sun.
    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:56 am  

    Spellaeon wrote:
    Through this thread, I just gave myself an idea about a new goal for the drow. Instead of trying to conquer the elves, they might try to destroy the real enemy who prevents them from ruling over the whole Oerth: the Sun.


    That is exactly what the Mind Flayers (Illithids) are working toward. Wink

    SirXaris
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    Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:56 pm  

    Spellaeon wrote:
    Through this thread, I just gave myself an idea about a new goal for the drow. Instead of trying to conquer the elves, they might try to destroy the real enemy who prevents them from ruling over the whole Oerth: the Sun.


    If you happen to have a copy of the old MERP _Ardor_ campaign book, it has a wonderful plot that adapts quite well to this kind of quest :D
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    Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:54 am  

    I do not have that book. But anyhow, it was just and idea which I do not think I will extend.

    There is so much stuff to do in the Baklunish nations which are under the sun.
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    Tue Dec 24, 2013 10:06 am  

    grodog wrote:
    Spellaeon wrote:
    Through this thread, I just gave myself an idea about a new goal for the drow. Instead of trying to conquer the elves, they might try to destroy the real enemy who prevents them from ruling over the whole Oerth: the Sun.


    If you happen to have a copy of the old MERP _Ardor_ campaign book, it has a wonderful plot that adapts quite well to this kind of quest :D


    Man, this is a great idea! I love this, and if I ever did anything with drow it would probably be something like this. Thanks, Spellaeon and Grodog!
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