I know this topic may seem to have been worn to death, but hear me out. While looking up some other unrelated GH stuff, I found a like to Nitescreed's infamous "Grey In The Hawk" text which was notable for how much it bashed the Forgotten Realms. That made me think about what differences there might be that did not make Greyhawk supposedly "superior" to FR, as Nitescreed so routinely claimed. There's no denying that GH is different from FR, but that doesn't necessarily mean one is automatically better than the other in any way.
So, I thought I'd identify some additional traits about Greyhawk that distinguish it from FR. This doesn't make them better, it makes them different. With that in mind...
Humans and human resembling-races wielding the overwhelming majority of influence: FR has become increasingly distinguished with the number of non-human races that have played prominent roles in the setting's history and are now commonly accepted in the social fabric of society. Elemental genasi, dragonborn and tieflings are all much more common and accepted in Faerun than they would be in the Flanaess, and creatures like dragons and beholders have played a much more prominent role in the setting's history.
Compare this to Greyhawk, which has been overwhelmingly defined by the movements and actions of the various human races, and to a lesser extent their demihuman cousins. Races that look like humans are overwhelmingly the order of the day, while creatures like beholders and dragons are proportionately rarer than they are in FR and have had much less impact on the world. Not to mention that I have a hard time seeing dragonborn or genasi lasting very long in the Flanaess, where they would probably be shunned as freaks, even in good-aligned societies.
A much lower power level overall: High-level wizards are everywhere in FR sourcebooks, with characters routinely running into Red Wizards, Harpers, or random liches that routinely exceed 15th level in power. Magic items are also ubiquitous, and even when the items are ordinary, they tend to be masterwork.
Now compare that to Greyhawk, where Iuz has a 9th-level priest running the Temple of Elemental Evil, where most rulers tend to be between 10th-14th level in power, and magic items tend to be less numerous and powerful. Looking through the LGG, the only ruler who actually exceeds 20th level is Sevvord Redbeard, and most others tend to be much less. Even Eclavdra was really only a 10th-level character.
A much grimmer and more cynical setting: In the Forgotten Realms setting, the forces of evil have suffered many setbacks, happy endings have abounded in stories and modules, and organizations like the Harpers actively seek to promote the cause of good and help those adventurers who also seek it. In Greyhawk, on the other hand, Iuz or the Scarlet Brotherhood rarely suffer defeats on the scale that the Red Wizards or the Zhentarim have.
Not to mention that it's very unlikely that a group like the Harpers, as an active force for good, would be active in the Flanaess. Goodly nations are much more likely to have their own selfish political goals in mind, tempering their altruism, and the most powerful organization that adventurers might interact with-the Circle of Eight-is just as apt to throw them to the wolves to advance its own goals as it is to actively provide them material aid.
More power in the hands of nations, rather than organizations: Faerun abounds with organizations like the Zhentarim, the Cult of the Dragon, the Harpers and more, many of which have specific political agendas not particularly tied to any given nation. Even the Red Wizards of Thay are somewhat dubious in that respect, as so many of them have their own agendas not tied to Thay's in particular, especially in more recent publications.
Greyhawk has such organizations too, but they are fewer in number and are often not quite as concerned with good or evil in themselves. Many of them are not only tied to specific nations or states, such as the People of the Testing, the Scarlet Brotherhood, the forces of Iuz and the various orders of knighthood, but many of them do not wield influence on the same scale as their FR counterparts. Much of the influence in the Flanaess revolves around independent operators and more particularly national politics and struggles between the states of the Flanaess. This is downplayed more in FR, by comparison.
Good points, I agree with all, especially the power level. FR always seemed to me to be more of a "wild & wahoo super-high-fantasy" setting.
Going along with the country-held-power & grimmer setting thoughts, Greyhawk feels more interconnected. The balance of power is delicate and the forces of woe have a solid foothold. At the country-gaming level, too much focus of power/attention in one area will lead to an exploitable opportunity in a neglected area.
Greyhawk has had only a single official Oerth-altering event (The Greyhawk Wars) since its release. The FR has had about two for every edition of D&D that has been released.
Greyhawk has no dual scimitar-wielding drow Ranger. Every player in the FR has played one.
CruelSummerLord, great topic, and I will try not to post a rant in my response. I will admit, first and foremost, that I have a philosophical duality with respect to FR. I have read just about every Drizzt Do'Urden that's been printed since I started reading about the exiled dark elf back in high school, partly out of interest, but partly because I keep hoping for more 'balance' in the series. On the other hand, I consider FR everything that GH isn't, for the reasons you have expertly outlined...and in a bad way. I consider FR a monty haul game world, where power-gaming is the norm rather than the exception. Yes, it is possible to do in any game world, but, as you have listed, Faerun seems overrun by exceeding powerful creatures, beings, and 'average Joes.' I played in a few FR games when I was younger ( ), mainly to try it out and see what all the fuss was about, but, in the end, I just wanted to go to church and confess.
For me, I am a diehard Oerthian and I don't think anyone will soon persuade me to give up the Flanaess for Faerun, or Krynn, or Athas, or any other game world, for that matter. I like the game world that has been created, and though there are a few things I have not liked that have been made for, or done with, Oerth and its denizens, overall, I am very satisfied.
Agreed that this is a great topic and can't argue with anything you've said, CruelSummerLord. I would argue, though, that the reasons for almost all of the differences you have highlighted come down to the greater level of attention that the FR has had from designers and authors.
Mostly as written in the '87 boxed set, FR was a human-dominated world but the need to produce supplements giving places first to elves and dwarves but ultimately to 3E and 4E races led to these having a home in the Realms.
Similarly the higher power level could arguably be due to the increased attention from designers. Everyone's favourite powerful NPC had to be found a place and so there are a profusion of them. The GH post-Wars supplements make some increases to the numbers of powerful NPCs but there were only a handful of those supplements. FR, on the other hand, has had at least a dozen sizeable supplements for each D&D edition since AD&D.
The grimmer tone of the setting and the lack of setbacks suffered by the BBEGs in GH can also be put down to less involvement by the authors of novels who have to have their heroes triumph over the latest threat to the world.
And finally, I would argue that organisations of GH simply haven't had the attention that those in FR have and so they are fewer in number and their schemes seem less obvious.
I think it is possible that GH could have become the constantly revised mish-mash setting that FR has become had it been given the attention that FR has been given by TSR and WotC. I for one am thankful it did not and we have a setting we can each make our own without being weighed down by tomes and tomes of canon material.
I think it is possible that GH could have become the constantly revised mish-mash setting that FR has become had it been given the attention that FR has been given by TSR and WotC. I for one am thankful it did not and we have a setting we can each make our own without being weighed down by tomes and tomes of canon material.
I believe you are right, Flint, and I'm glad that didn't happen.
However, I'd like to point out that Paizo-hawk did the job of expanding upon the World of Greyhawk in a manner that avoided all the negatives you listed above. They expanded upon already canon, but little-known, Greyhawk gods and NPCs, added new material to the fringes of the Flanaess without contradicting existing canon, and left the Flanaess, as a whole, intact at the end of their Adventure Paths.
I will say, though, that Cauldron and Sasserine are quite a bit larger than think such cities should 'realistically' be in such locations. :???:
However, I'd like to point out that Paizo-hawk did the job of expanding upon the World of Greyhawk in a manner that avoided all the negatives you listed above.
That's a good point, and some of this expansion was also at the heart of the Flanaess in some of the most developed areas (Diamond Lake and Alhaster for example). Not sure how they avoided the mistakes made with FR although Paizo have, to me, always seemed to have a far better feel for what the fans wanted than WotC.
The other key difference for me is that GH is, at its roots a magical medieval setting whereas FR is the epitome, and perhaps the first example of a kitchen sink setting.
GH has kings, queens, nobles and knights and whilst parts of FR have these, they are the exception rather than the norm. Of course GH has, around the edges of the map, scope for different settings and genres (the Baklunish kingdoms, jungles to the south, pirates to the south and east) but all of this is firmly rooted in the logic of the magical medieval basis for the setting. This is a big plus for me because it is so familiar and so easy to create in and game in without a lot of additional background knowledge.
More power in the hands of nations, rather than organizations:
In early products, yes, but later GH (post-Return of the Eight) is pretty close to FR. One can't turn four pages in a WOTC/Hasbro product without reading about the machinations of an epic-level NPC or a new Oerth-shattering threat:
*SPOILERS*
Return of the Eight: Iggwilv, Tuerny, Tenser, the whole CoE.
The Lost Tombs Series: a lich and a city-stomping juggernaut!
Slavers: powerful non-nation organization
Die Vecna Die: a lich god
Return to the Tomb of Horros: a lich becoming a god
Liberation of Geoff: powerful non-nation organization
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil: Big T, broken canon, kill Imix
Vortex of Maddness: Lum the Mad
Bastion of Faith: highest-level NPC's ever
Expedition Demonweb Pits: Lolth, Graz'zt
Dead Gods: 'nuff said
Expedition Ruins Greyhawk: Mordenkainen, Iuz, Iggwilv, Robilar, Vayne, Zouken, etc, etc.
Shackled City: Ebon Triad and a Demon Prince of Madness
City of Shadows: Lolth
Age of Worms: a hero-god, the Ebon Triad, Prince Zeech, Dragotha, Bucknard, etc
Savage Tide: Demogorgan and a succubus goddess.
The Seeds of Sehan is one of the only 3E scenarios that didn't involve either a lich, a god, a demon lord, or an epic NPC.
Greyhawk also has one big negative FR doesn't: the nostalgia factor and emphasis on endlessly-rehashed classics over new material.
I don't know what to sound like a hater, GH will always be my setting of choice, but this thread was making a very one-sided, romanticized comparison of GH that only applies to pre-WotC product lines. Greyhawk won't return to its gritty, low-fantasy roots as long as Hasbro can slap Mordenkainen/Anton Lavey on a cover and profit on brand-name NPC's and 30-year-old modules.
... One can't turn four pages in a WOTC/Hasbro product without reading about the machinations of an epic-level NPC or a new Oerth-shattering threat...
-Yeah. A bunch of orcs can't raid a merchant caravan without it leading to Iggwilv...
vestcoat wrote:
... Greyhawk won't return to its gritty, low-fantasy roots as long as Hasbro can slap Mordenkainen/Anton Lavey on a cover and profit on brand-name NPC's and 30-year-old modules.
-So you're not the only one who noticed the resemblance...
... Greyhawk won't return to its gritty, low-fantasy roots as long as Hasbro can slap Mordenkainen/Anton Lavey on a cover and profit on brand-name NPC's and 30-year-old modules.
-So you're not the only one who noticed the resemblance...
I always thought that picture of Mordy looked like Icarus...
Greyhawk has no dual scimitar-wielding drow Ranger. Every player in the FR has played one. :razz
…I’m sure there’s one out there somewhere…
Flint wrote:
…I think it is possible that GH could have become the constantly revised mish-mash setting that FR has become had it been given the attention that FR has been given by TSR and WotC. I for one am thankful it did not and we have a setting we can each make our own without being weighed down by tomes and tomes of canon material.
-Can’t argue with that, except I want my Cannibalistic Halflings from the Underdark to take over the Free City of Greyhawk, and to impose that vision on everyone else!
I actually think that even the Greyhawk Wars went a little further than I would have liked. But I accept it.
I’ve always suspected that “blowing it up” was just a sneaky way to get you to buy more stuff…
SirXaris wrote:
I will say, though, that Cauldron and Sasserine are quite a bit larger than think such cities should 'realistically' be in such locations.
-I don’t have them yet, but I understand that they’re both in western Amedio, with Cauldron in a volcano and Sessarine on the coast, and their populations both run in the thousands. A port town can handle that, but Sessarine was supposed to be “classified” until the Greyhawk Wars. Would trade with only the Sea Princes have been able to support it? As for Cauldron, are there any surrounding habitations to supply them with food?
Don’t tell me that they feed thousands by hunting, or that they all eat fungi…
Lanthorn wrote:
… I have read just about every Drizzt Do'Urden that's been printed since I started reading about the exiled dark elf back in high school, partly out of interest, but partly because I keep hoping for more 'balance' in the series. On the other hand, I consider FR everything that GH isn't, for the reasons you have expertly outlined...and in a bad way…
-I have never played FR, I have never read the horde of novels (although I know who/what Drizzt D'Urden is). I have seen articles on FR in Dragon/Dungeon, and they’re as good as anything else, I just want more GH. I’ve never gotten the whole Global War on the Forgotten Realms (or Ed Greenwood) thing which some people seem to have. I remember reading his articles way back in Dragon (issues 50s-80s, IIRC) on world building and thought they were good. I really appreciated an article he did on believable language creation, which I consider the gold standard (let’s face it, language creation was not EGG’s forte). Some of the principles seem to have been applied to GH retroactively.
Lanthorn wrote:
… I like the game world that has been created, and though there are a few things I have not liked that have been made for, or done with, Oerth and its denizens, overall, I am very satisfied…
-On the whole, me too. Any problems can be “modified.”
In early products, yes, but later GH (post-Return of the Eight) is pretty close to FR. One can't turn four pages in a WOTC/Hasbro product without reading about the machinations of an epic-level NPC or a new Oerth-shattering threat:
*SPOILERS*
Return of the Eight: Iggwilv, Tuerny, Tenser, the whole CoE.
The Lost Tombs Series: a lich and a city-stomping juggernaut!
Slavers: powerful non-nation organization
Die Vecna Die: a lich god
Return to the Tomb of Horros: a lich becoming a god
Liberation of Geoff: powerful non-nation organization
Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil: Big T, broken canon, kill Imix
Vortex of Maddness: Lum the Mad
Bastion of Faith: highest-level NPC's ever
Expedition Demonweb Pits: Lolth, Graz'zt
Dead Gods: 'nuff said
Expedition Ruins Greyhawk: Mordenkainen, Iuz, Iggwilv, Robilar, Vayne, Zouken, etc, etc.
Shackled City: Ebon Triad and a Demon Prince of Madness
City of Shadows: Lolth
Age of Worms: a hero-god, the Ebon Triad, Prince Zeech, Dragotha, Bucknard, etc
Savage Tide: Demogorgan and a succubus goddess.
The Seeds of Sehan is one of the only 3E scenarios that didn't involve either a lich, a god, a demon lord, or an epic NPC.
Greyhawk also has one big negative FR doesn't: the nostalgia factor and emphasis on endlessly-rehashed classics over new material.
I don't know what to sound like a hater, GH will always be my setting of choice, but this thread was making a very one-sided, romanticized comparison of GH that only applies to pre-WotC product lines. Greyhawk won't return to its gritty, low-fantasy roots as long as Hasbro can slap Mordenkainen/Anton Lavey on a cover and profit on brand-name NPC's and 30-year-old modules.
Suffice to say I'm not thrilled with the drastic turn towards high-level characters, endless numbers of magic items and more and more Oerth-shaking threats that have been so prevalent in the last 10-15 years in D&D. I actually find more powerful characters and beings much harder to write, because it becomes harder for me to justify why they don't just use some uber-ability to just vaporize whatever threat they're facing. Lower-powered fantasy is, ironically, easier for me to write. (And I'll admit that I'm really a writer, not a gamer-D&D and Greyhawk, in particular, really fire my creative juices for a variety of reasons).
That said, I think Flint makes a really good point when he notes that GH could have become the kitchen sink setting that FR has become. I myself really appreciate the fact that GH isn't weighed down by as much canon, and that canon is also easier to ignore (e.g., anything that comes from Sean K. Reynolds' poisoned pen) where it does exist.
I realize that, even though I'm not really a gamer, I've become a grognard too...and I'm only 31 years old!
...I myself really appreciate the fact that GH isn't weighed down by as much canon, and that canon is also easier to ignore (e.g., anything that comes from Sean K. Reynolds' poisoned pen) where it does exist...
-Oh, boo! Hiss! Unfair! Scarlet Brotherhood was good. Do you have something specific in mind?
Compare to Skip Williams' Child's Play and Gargoyle...
-Oh, boo! Hiss! Unfair! Scarlet Brotherhood was good. Do you have something specific in mind?
Read "The Obsessions of Iuz" and "Iuz and the Powers of Greyhawk" in WGR5, p5-6. Then compare "Current Plans for the Scarlet Brotherhood" in SB p23-24 and weep.
What lies in store for the most mysterious evil organization in the Flanaess? Let's see:
Quote:
The Brotherhood plans to maintain friendly relations with the Zar, Lerga, and Sharba. Occasional slaving raids into Xolapeqa will continue.
The Brotherhood has no plans for overt action in the [Western Nyr Dyv] region.
The Sheldomar Valley is[...] watched.
The Brotherhood has many more immediate threats and obstacles to deal with than the remnants of the Baklunish Empire.
The sparse realms of the [northern] Flanaess currently hold little interest for the Brotherhood.
The Bortherhood has no agents in the... [Land of] Iuz.
The Northern Barbarians remain on good footing with the Brotherhood.
And so on, eventually listing sundry territorial ambitions in the Aerdy lands.
-Oh, boo! Hiss! Unfair! Scarlet Brotherhood was good. Do you have something specific in mind?
Read "The Obsessions of Iuz" and "Iuz and the Powers of Greyhawk" in WGR5, p5-6. Then compare "Current Plans for the Scarlet Brotherhood" in SB p23-24 and weep.
What lies in store for the most mysterious evil organization in the Flanaess? Let's see:
Quote:
The Brotherhood plans to maintain friendly relations with the Zar, Lerga, and Sharba. Occasional slaving raids into Xolapeqa will continue.
The Brotherhood has no plans for overt action in the [Western Nyr Dyv] region.
The Sheldomar Valley is[...] watched.
The Brotherhood has many more immediate threats and obstacles to deal with than the remnants of the Baklunish Empire.
The sparse realms of the [northern] Flanaess currently hold little interest for the Brotherhood.
The Bortherhood has no agents in the... [Land of] Iuz.
The Northern Barbarians remain on good footing with the Brotherhood.
And so on, eventually listing sundry territorial ambitions in the Aerdy lands.
-Ok. I don't see anything wrong with that. I have Iuz the Evil, but I might not have it handy. I'll take a look. But still.
I played a little FR when I was younger. The individual campaign regions (Waterdeep, The Savage Frontier, the Dalelands, etc.) were all interesting and fun on their own, at least circa 1996. Undermountain was a personal favorite, and I liked the Arcane Age setting for Netheril (it could certainly be a good source for the Suel Imperium). Each of these niches was a lot of fun in its own right, usually highly detailed, and more or less narratively consistent.
However, FR as a whole is merely an aggregation of these niches. Fun individually, but in this case the whole is less than the sum of the parts. Nothing really ties the whole thing together. Sure, you have groups with large-scale agendas (Harpers, Zhentarim, Red Wizards, etc.) but the subtlety that would make them interesting is lost as they are behind just about every lost copper coin. Connections to Elminster seem to be the most consistent tie-ins, but these are far overdone.
The lack of narrative coherence is the most glaring deficiency in FR, and is what fails to integrate the niches. On Oerth, the Twin Cataclysms, the touchstone of the historical narrative, drives the massive migration of peoples into the Flanaess and the establishment of the two great civilization centers of the Sheldomar Valley and the Great Kingdom. I just summed up the history of the Flanaess. By contrast, FR has multiple narratives of cataclysm and migration that often conflict, contradict, and overall make little sense. The fall of Netheril explains one niche; the elves blowing it all a second, wars between genies a third, orc hordes and more orc hordes others, et. al. Try to summarize FR’s history; you cannot.
I personally use elements of FR to flesh out parts of the Flanaess. The Volo’s guide series are great for adding detail to inns, taverns, and the like, with only a little trimming (powering down) necessary. Lost Empires is another good product that can easily be converted to create lost sites for the Suel Imperium or other pre-modern states.
Overall, I look at FR as a buffet. There are some things I really like, and I come back to them again and again. However, most of it is banal, and I ignore it.
-Oh, boo! Hiss! Unfair! Scarlet Brotherhood was good. Do you have something specific in mind?
Compare to Skip Williams' Child's Play and Gargoyle...
Indeed I do. I considered Slavers to be utter garbage, based around the Earth Dragon, a villain with about as much depth to him as the paper the book was printed on.
I also read one of his FR books on the various evil organizations of that setting, and I was not impressed. Some of the stuff other people have said has turned me against him, namely what our own GVDammerung wrote regarding The Scarlet Brotherhood:
In particular, I agree with GVD that the Olman and the Touv shouldn't be treated as dim savages. Rather, I enjoy imagining them as having the same access to magic and weaponry as any Suel or Oeridian (which means they have spellbooks and written script, as well as steel swords and shields), the latter of which stems from the fact that the demihumans are spread all over the world just like humans are, but that their cultures are entirely their own.
Finally, I have a dim memory from one of the GreyTalk IRC chats of old that I used to attend, wherein Reynolds criticized the fact that drow 'magical' weapons crumbled to dust in the sunlight and though that the PCs should be able to acquire real magic weapons as soon as possible. This is more a personal thing than anything else, but I hate seeing +1 weapons as disposable tools and the much higher numbers of magic items in 3E, and I wonder whether Reynolds had something to do with that.
-The point from the sections you quote is that the SB isn't active EVERYWHERE in CY 591, particularly since they bit off more than they could chew in 582-584. That's obvious from the full paragraphs (e.g., The Amedio and the Olman Islands: "The Father of Obedience is content to keep the removal of slaves and warriors from this place to a low level..."). Even there, the obvious adventure idea is fro the PCs to impede that (or protect that, if they work for the SB). Then: "Julmar wishes to explore the cursed city on the north side of Matreyus Lake but cannot commit her forces to that task without extending the Brotherhood's zone of control..." Obviously, the PCs can beat the SB there, or (if they work the other side), they can do it for the SB.
No ideas?
For specific ideas, you have the NPCs on pp. 34-35.
I really like pp. 7-33, which flesh out how the essentially LE SB functions as a workable society.
The Suel vocabulary on pp.95-96 is generally well thought out, and is a god-send for naming. I have a few nit-picks e.g., I'd think that "sword" would be "cardan," with "car"(dagger) followed by the adjective "dan" (presumably "long") as seems to be typical in Suel, instead instead on "dancar" (adjective preceding noun) but oh well.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... I considered Slavers to be utter garbage, based around the Earth Dragon, a villain with about as much depth to him as the paper the book was printed on...
-Well, the Earth Dragon wasn't Reynold's or Pramas' idea; that comes from the original A1-A4 series, for which I believe you can blame Mr. EG Gygax. They simply tied the new Slavers into the old Slavers, which seems reasonable. I'd rather that, than creating yet another all-powerful threat in the Flaneass. Those people have enough problems already.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... I also read one of his FR books on the various evil organizations of that setting...
-I haven't read any FR novels, so I'll take your word for it, but since it's FR, I don't care.
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... I agree with GVD that the Olman and the Touv shouldn't be treated as dim savages)...
-The premise is that the Amedio and Hepmonaland have fallen on hard times, but that doesn't necessarily make them "dim" any more than the Rasol (the most ahistorical of the three groups) are necessarily "dim" (or the Rhizia barbarians, for that matter).
Most of the Touv city-states don't seem particularly "dim," and Xamaclan, the one Olman state which remains sane, is quite advanced (p. 65, 67).
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... Rather, I enjoy imagining them as having the same access to magic and weaponry as any Suel or Oeridian (which means they have spellbooks and written script, as well as steel swords and shields)...
-Where does it say they don't?
p. 50: "Iyapo was created long ago as a private woodland retreat by Arakay, one of the rare Kunda wizards... It still sports a disproportionate number of wizards."
or
p. 61: The wizard Ibo...
or
p. 64: Olman wizards...
...if they don't have spellbooks, they seem to have managed a viable work-around...
BTW, what would be wrong if the Tuov and Olman were "dim," if it works?
CruelSummerLord wrote:
... Some of the stuff other people have said has turned me against him, namely what our own GVDammerung wrote regarding The Scarlet Brotherhood:
Skreyn takes HIS interpretation of what a few things in The Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (e.g., the timing of the first conflict between Tuov and Olman) and declares his interpretation to be the one, true correct one. Fine. But Opinions are like A$$holes, everybody's got one. Reynold's explains the gap by observing that it took a long time for both sides to filter through the jungle (p. 36). Is Skreyn's interpretation viable? Sure. But so is Reynold's. Reynold's picked one over the other. So it goes. Now, if we had it to do all over again, is one necessarily better than the other? I don't think so.
On the title page, Erik Mona, Roger Moore, Lenard Lakofka, and Steve Wilson (with whom I'm not familiar) all advised on the project. How much input did they actually have?
-Well, the Earth Dragon wasn't Reynold's or Pramas' idea; that comes from the original A1-A4 series, for which I believe you can blame Mr. EG Gygax.
I always thought that Tiamat would have been a more interesting identity for the Earth Dragon than a nature spirit that doesn't do much of anything. The Dragon Temple in "Vesicant" is a temple of Tiamat.
The original Slave Lords series is by David "Zeb" Cook, Lawrence Schick, Harold Johnson, Tom Moldvay, and Allen Hammack.
Quote:
Is Skreyn's interpretation viable? Sure. But so is Reynold's.
"Skreyn" is Sean K. Reynolds. He wrote some books for Malhavoc Press called Skreyn's Register. The nickname comes from his first two initials and the first four letters of his last name; GVD uses it in order to critique his work on The Scarlet Brotherhood from the perspective of a sage of Oerth without breaking the fourth wall. Thus, in GVD's essay, the information in The Scarlet Brotherhood is the work of a sage called Skreyn.
My own opinion is that the Olman are a poor fit for Greyhawk. The 1983 World of Greyhawk boxed set made it clear that the "savages" of the southern jungles were of Suloise descent, so subsequent works should have established that the Olman were freckled, monster-worshiping Suel rather than shoehorning in a race unattested in other sources (apart from the anomalous C1). That would have fit perfectly with the idea that the Olman came to the Amedio Jungle from across the Hellfurnaces. Too late now, I guess.
Quote:
On the title page, Erik Mona, Roger Moore, Lenard Lakofka, and Steve Wilson (with whom I'm not familiar) all advised on the project. How much input did they actually have?
Lenard Lakofka and Steve "Tamerlain" Wilson are the authors of the Oerth Journal #1 timeline of the Suel Imperium, which was used (with modifications) as part of the historical background in The Scarlet Brotherhood. Roger E. Moore wrote "Green Nightmare: The Amedio Jungle" in Oerth Journal #4, which formed the basis of the Amedio Jungle chapter in The Scarlet Brotherhood. Steve Wilson is also the author of the GreyChrondex and Erik Mona was the first editor of the Oerth Journal, and based on their many fan-contributions to Greyhawk lore they were picked to be canon advisers for the 1998 Greyhawk line. I don't know what they contributed specifically to The Scarlet Brotherhood apart from the material taken from the Oerth Journal #1 timeline, though they helped come up with Keraptis's backstory in Return to White Plume Mountain and to some extent the backstory of the Kingdom of Thalland in Bastion of Faith.
-Well, the Earth Dragon wasn't Reynold's or Pramas' idea; that comes from the original A1-A4 series, for which I believe you can blame Mr. EG Gygax.
I always thought that Tiamat would have been a more interesting identity for the Earth Dragon than a nature spirit that doesn't do much of anything...
-Would also have had the virtue of using an already existing deity, I suppose.
rasgon wrote:
jamesdglick wrote:
...Is Skreyn's interpretation viable? Sure. But so is Reynold's.
"Skreyn" is Sean K. Reynolds. He wrote some books for Malhavoc Press called...
-Whoops! Egg hits face!
It looks like GVD is supporting "Skreyn" vs. SKR. Maybe I better take another look when I get the chance...
rasgon wrote:
...My own opinion is that the Olman are a poor fit for Greyhawk...
-I wouldn't say that the Olman are a bad fit, but that their deities are simply the transplanted Meso-American pantheon.
rasgon wrote:
...Too late now, I guess...
-You beat me to it.
rasgon wrote:
...Lenard Lakofka and Steve "Tamerlain" Wilson are the authors of the Oerth Journal #1 timeline of the Suel Imperium, which was used (with modifications) as part of the historical background in The Scarlet Brotherhood... Steve Wilson is also the author of the GreyChrondex ... I don't know what they contributed specifically to The Scarlet Brotherhood...
-Thanks. I never noticed SW's work before. Lenard Lakofka developed the Lendore Isles, and with it the Suel pantheon. If I had to guess (why not?), LL also had a hand in developing the Suel language, which is more consistent that is normally found in early GH stuff.
If I had to guess (why not?), LL also had a hand in developing the Suel language, which is more consistent that is normally found in early GH stuff.
Sean K. Reynolds designed a dwarven language in Dragon #278 and an elven language in Dragon #279, so fantasy languages seem to be his specialty. I'm pretty sure the Suel language in The Scarlet Brotherhood is mostly his work.
If I had to guess (why not?), LL also had a hand in developing the Suel language, which is more consistent that is normally found in early GH stuff.
Sean K. Reynolds designed a dwarven language in Dragon #278 and an elven language in Dragon #279, so fantasy languages seem to be his specialty. I'm pretty sure the Suel language in The Scarlet Brotherhood is mostly his work.
-I was looking up something entirely different, and noticed that the Heseul Ilshar section in Fate of Istus list a little Suel vocab' on p. 111 (inc. noun modifiers for "greater", "lesser," and the feminine).
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), mainly to try it out and see what all the fuss was about, but, in the end, I just wanted to go to church and confess. 
