Im the games and campaign that I have run I have found that my players enjoy visual images. They like to see illustrations of the monsters they are fighting, the NPCs they meet and the places they visit. Some might say that such illustrations deter th eplayers from using their own imaginations but I feel that in fact they help feed it. Quite often I hear prestige classes referred to as 'kick-arse' purely based upon the accompanying image.
Strong images for a campaign setting not only look appealing but can help to convey a strong identity and ambience for that setting. In a way this thread could be linked to the thread on Canon because popular images start to form a Canon of their own.
Greyhawk has generally lacked a strong sense of pictoral imagery. Those illustrations that I have scene, have been varied and a hodge podge. Some are pretty amateur and some really nice. The Slavelords campaign had great (if a little dated) illustrations running all the way through. However, with the new 3rd and 3.5 ed rules and Greyhawk being used as its basic setting...I have to say I found the artwork, whilst really really nice not at all how I felt Greyhawk appeared. Characters such as Tordek and Mialee are very generic fantasy characters in appearance.
This got me to thinking, as occasionally I am want to do.
By profession I am an illustrator and in between jobs I have considered beginning a series of illustrations for the World of Greyhawk. Races, NPCs, places, artifacts et cetera. This is more of a personal project for me than anything.
How would people feel about seeing such a series of images? Many of you would probabaly rather not see them as I'm sure you all have your own clear ideas of how things appear in your mind. But I think that if Greyhawk is to have a revival it would beneift from images to sprak interest and imagination.
Rather than this just be something I do with only my input I'd very much like to have feedback from anyone else who would be interested to contribute their ideas and thoughts on how they visualise Greyhawk. I have thoroughly enjoyed many of the posts on this site and so would like to share this project with you guys.
And if you hate the idea of seeing such images then you don't have to see them and don't have to contribute. ANyone who does want to contribute with suggestions or what they would like to see first then I'd love the feedback.
If you wanna see what kind of style I'l be doing these images in then you can see my work at (see book illustration section and pencil work for the medium I'll be using):
For my campaign, imagery is essential. I am forever fond of shadowdancers just for the graceful and deadly image in the DMG.
IMC, we now require that players have a image of their character. They can a) give an intense and detailed verbal desription of their character, or the more popular option b) have a picture. For most this means they find something on the Net, print it, and show that to the group.
I agree that Greyhawk has never had the consistency of visual imagery that other settings have been provided. Even when it was being regularly published, the consistency was just not there. Recently it has been so generic as to be nearly uninteresting. However, I must plug that the recent images in Dungeon of various Greyhawk adventures have been excellent.
For each of my adventures I attempt to go and find a picture of somewhere that looks like what I am trying to detail to my players. For me, the Flaness is an attractive world, even in it's starkness. The element I use most often is dust, dusty roads, dusty fields, blowing dust. When it rains, it is messy. (Maybe that is because growing up in Georgia, there was a near constant drought, and there was always blowing dust).
I for one would be pleased to see any effort to illustrate GH. I wil PM you for a suggested project, if you are taking suggestions.
Okay. This is two for two. Yesterday, I get amped over Races of Destiny and now this.
I checked out your web link. Your work is beautiful and it is brilliant. I particularly like the pencil & color and the book illustrations.
I also like the whole way you present yourself and your work on the site. If there is any justice in the world, you should be doing professional work in gaming products, books, and commercial illustration.
I love your idea about a sort of "illustrated guide to Greyhawk." However, quite frankly, you should be getting paid; your work is outstanding. You have a great deal of talent.
Your work, particularly the color book illustrations and acrylic, has an asethetic I would describe as Pre-Raphaelite meets Nene Thomas. If you have not seen Nene's works, check out - www.nenethomas.com. I have a small (12 pieces?) collection of fantasy art and three are Nene's work.
IMO, most fantasy "art" is wonderful illustration or fantasy but you would not want it hanging on the wall, if you are having non-gaming friends over. The pieces I have collected are fantasy art but they are not the "wizards in pointy hat," "elf-may with unicorn," "dragon rampant" or "Swords! Swords! Swords!" type of "uber-goober" fantasy art. They are art with fantasy elements that you can hang on the wall and which non-gamers can appreciate or at least they they will not look at you funny about.
The examples of your work on your website that I like best are in this vein - fantasy art that is not outre, freakish or "uber-goober." Besides the aforementioned, L'Imperatrice is very nice. The Zambi Queen - 3rd Storyboard reminds me of some of James Tissot's work. Btw - I think you might like the book, Fashion in Art: The Second Empire and Impressionism by Simon and Westwood, as you seem to have an eye for nicely detailed fashions.
With respect to your request for feedback, besides liking the idea you propose generally, there are some images that, to me, say "Greyhawk." I don't have a list immediately handy but I will put one together and post it on this thread.
Thank you for sharing your website. Your art is great!
GVD
PS - No offense to anyone whose taste in art runs in directions different than mine. Art is the ultimate subjective topic, I think, with no "rights" or "wrongs," just what happens to appeal to you. "Uber-goober" is just a term I have heard used to describe the more fantastic, cartoonish, cliched types of fantasy art that TSR once used very frequently. _________________ GVD
I'd be interested to see the Greyhawk images you have seen. I remember seeing some concept art for Greyhawk in one of the Dragon Issues - some sketches of the Circle of Eight, Iuz, an avatar of Ehlonna.
The cover of the LGG of (I assume) Mordenkainen was also great but I found the illustrations inside a bit disappointing.
I will be sure to check out Nene Thomas's work later on.
My image of Greyhawk is dark and gritty and with a strong medieval feel to it. Obviously a look that everyone will agree with would be impossible but by getting input from other Greyhawkers hopefully we can come up with something most people will be happy with.
I had thought to depict the different racial groups first but this will be difficult as judging by previous arguments we all have a variety of opinions but in this instance we wil be concerned with appearance more than society although this still has a factor to play. I also appreciate that an Oeridian from one place will not look the same as an Oeridian from another. I have a MERP (Middle Earth) rule book that shows a man and woman of each region and so it would be nice to show all the countries and regions represented where there appearance is different. As important are the demi-humans.
This will also take some time due to other commitments so please feel free with any ideas as to what you might like to see depicted first.
Your artwork is excellent as is your idea. I would go one step further and recommend a Topics section on Canonfire for GH artwork. Postfests might be good as would links to other sites with GH artwork.
Mike I thought your work was great - I particularly liked the pencil drawings, but thought the whole site was professional and inspiring.
I am a huge fan of illustration as a catalyst for creativity in roleplaying. A well-rendered illustration of an adventure setting can make for some of the most memorable role-play sessions that I have known. I would really like to see Greyhawk architecture, peoples and places developed... what are Flan buildings like, how do Perrenlanders dress etc.. Great art will inspire me more than any book of 'crunch'.
Sorry I don't have more time to comment -I look forward to seeing you bringing Greyhawk to life - and yes you should be getting paid for it!
Art to inspire the imagination?!? Pah, it'll never work!
Kidding, folks. Kidding!
I think this is an idea that is long overdue. The old folio had an Erol Otis pic of an attack on a fort; since it was listed under Bandit Kingdoms, I still picture that to this day when dealing with the Bandit Kingdoms.
I think some subjects should remain up to everyone's imagination, though. The Land of Black Ice and the Valley of the Mage come to mind, but that's just my personal opinion. Sketches of typical clothing;yes. Sketches of landmarks, races, locales; yes, yes, and yes. Just leave a little something to imagination and mystery.
And I'd have to agree with the other opinions posted; your artwork IS deserving of pay and publication.
Now where did I put my checkbook... _________________ There is no problem that cannot be resolved with the application of more firepower.
I just had to say, excellent art, Wolfling! I loved the colored works. Especially the watercolors. I use pencil and as of yet have not tried using color. A Postfest for GH artwork? I'm there, but how many artists are there lurking around CF? Any sketchers or painters still in the closet? _________________ Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.
Mike, I like your work, and would be happy to use you in some gaming projects we have coming up at Different Worlds, if we can manage to afford you (our site is www.diffworlds.com and we published Rob Kuntz's Eight Kings most recently). Drop me a line when you're able :D
On the Greyhawk front, one of the most interesting things for me, imagery-wise, is that I feel like I live in Greyhawk: the hilly, wooded landscape of coastal California feels like the Nyr Dyv, Cairn Hills, Gnarley Forest of the central Flanaess.
While I am moved by artwork depicting characters, good maps, etc., landscape images that convey the setting to me---that ground me in imagining being right there, next to that tree, surrounded by fog---those are the images that really place me in Greyhawk.
As an example, I found this image while visiting with Heather's family for the holidays: it's from National Geographic's January 2005 issue: http://seabed.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0501/images/wallpaper_lg.1.2.jpg
This image just excites my imagination! I'm not sure if I want it to be Isles of Woe rising from the Nyr Dyv in the midst of a fog, a part of the Ataphads Archipelago, inland Barrier Peaks rising from a sea of fog below, etc., etc.
Similarly, Mike's image of the eagle flying over rugged coastline conveys a sense of the Wild Coast for me, or empty shores of the Whyestil at sunrise, or the lone eagle en route to rescue Gandalf from Orthanc (well, OK, that's off topic, but you get the idea :D ): http://www.mike-lowe.co.uk/oil/oil_eagle.htm _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
Mike, excellent site! You have a distinct style, light and elegant. Your illustrations were top notch. I hope you can find some work among the gaming community, keep it up!
Tedra: an art related Postfest you say, hmmm....I wonder if I can draw too? Could be.....
Tedra: an art related Postfest you say, hmmm....I wonder if I can draw too? Could be.....
Well, if that should ever come to pass then I suppose the admin should go ahead and change your forum title now and get it over with. _________________ Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.
thanks everyone for the great feedback and very kind words
this kind of positive feedback for some images of Greyhawk was just what I was hoping for! I agree that if there are any other artists out there and they felt like it their contributions and input would be great too. Wow, I'm feeling very inspired!
So to business!
Any suggestions as what you'd like to see first? Perhaps the basics (races)?
As it's important for me to get your input if you have any favourite NPCs or places you might like to see first then let me know and include your thoughts on how you visualise these things. If you like you can either post them on this thread, pm me on canonfire or e-mail me directly at monkey_magic13@hotmail.com
Races? I actually would steer clear of races, with the exception of areas where "pure," strains are available (if there is ever such a thing). I would suggest rather, to concentrate on Nations, and what makes them distinct. At the very least miliatry attiare will vary, particularly helmets and sheilds.
I think that this lack is much of what causes the blandness that some complain about in GH. This lack of distinction. If I may, I would reference Robert Jordans works. In a few sentances, using Height and Clothing he is able to create very distinct nations, something that I do not think has ever been done in GH. Our descriptions of Nations often revolve around their policy/governance. We know that Aerdy was imperialistic, and that Keoland was rarely so, and that Yeomanry is a democracy. But little else.
After 200 years, even people of very similar racial stock, while seperated, begin changing in features, styles, and even bearing, even when sharing a language. Think England and the US, though the Brits may hate the fact that we say we speak English .
I like Anced mention of military attire distinction among nations. Different modes of dress would also be nice. Someone from The Pale vs someone from Hommlett vs someone from Eastfair. That would interesting. _________________ Never get into fights with ugly people, they have nothing to lose.
Yes I think addressing each nation is a better idea, afterall, like you say Anced_Math, there are few cases of pure racial strains left anyways - perhaps such illustrations can be saved for historical images...a noble of the Suel Empire for example.
To come up with the physical appearance of these mixes will need some consideration of how the pure races appeared and how they would mix. WHich features from each group are most likely to show through. The blond hair and blue eues of the Suel I consider to be a recessive trait. Dark hair and eyes always seem to form the majority. There are always exceptions though.
Military uniforms would be a good idea. I'm not an expert in medieval arms and armpur so any suggestions for the type and style of armour each nation might have would be very welcome.
I have always liked the covers on the Basic D&D Gazetteers, detailing nations of Mystara, I think. I just looked some of them up at http://www.nobleknight.com/ with a search for Gazetteer. Usually there are several pictures of representative individuals, buildings, etc. over a partial map backdrop. It gives a good feel for the nation.
Wow, dude. Just...wow. If you were still in Boston I'd drive down and buy you a beer or coffee or whatever the hell you wanted, just for letting me look at those illos.
I'd seriously like to talk to you (and will send you an email later) about doing some illustrations for me.
Would you be at all interested in contributing to the Oerth Journal as a totally unpaid peon? I'd be very willing to include any GH illustrations you do, either on their own or as part of an article, just to get them out there.
As for what to draw...I'll think on it. I did really love those Known World/Mystara covers, though.
For the longest time I have been contemplating doing a project similar to this, Mike.
My problem is I have no time, with work, family, gaming, etc. Although if you take on the difficulting of hosting the images on a website I certainly could try to find the time to contribute.
My own experience is through high school and college, although my degree is CompSci and not FA mainly because of greed.
Anyway I would love to see a Greyhawk version of the races section from the PHB in color. Including sylvan elves and grugach as well as differentiating stout and tallfellow from the hairfoot halflings.
The other image that comes to mind is the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom... cool archaic plate armor this could be done with examples from all the major groups of the Flaeness.
I have solicited from, and gotten tenative agreement from wolfing to help out on a project, and here you go, courting him out from under us. You can't do that!!! Unless,
Hey Wolfing, you should work on the OJ. Except, we should try and upgrade our article to an OJ submission! Thats it.
Well there you go Nell, he will be working on the OJ
hehehe - it is true I'm working on a project with Anced_Math but I'd happily do some stuff for the OJ too - it's just a matter of time and the like.
I've done a little research today. I agree that tackling things nation by nation is a good idea but I think that I shall start with depicting the ancient races...that way there is a basis to determine how those races may have mixed later on.
I know that previously there has been a lot of discussion / argument as to how the ancient bloodlines appeared.
I have my own opinions but if anyone has any personal ideas as to how they look then please let me know
I'm also interested in a style for the demi-humans. Again i have my own opinions. I think die to the long lifespan on the demi-humans there dress is porbabaly more archaic and has changed little. I see the elves as having an elegant almost greek feel to their garments...flowing chitons or peplos..think shakespeares Midsummer Night's Dream as portrayed by Arthur Rackham if any of you are familiar with those illustrations.
The dwarves are skilled metalworkers...the initial thoght is a kind of norse feel but id like to give them a more Celtic feel. The Celts also had a strong affinity for the earth and stone monuments - okay dwarven stone monuments are maybe in a different league but i like the feel of dwarves in this way. The intricate metal work tie sin nicely - obviously this is just a theme to work on.
The gnomes i read as having come from further north and I see them as looking quite slavonic in dress...lots of embroidery on their garments, hailing from dark northern forests. i will try and find a link to show you what i mean.
I think there are several thing to consider.... the LGG portrays the races, or at least a single image of each.
Lets take one group that is close to my heart... the Flan. They are often considered Native American Celts. Well, that is immensely broad, even as a beginning. There were over 500 tribes of native americans, and they looked dramatically different. My family is part cherokee, my wife is a member of the Ojibwa tribe. In looking at the two groups, historically at least, it is possible that they would not have even been lumped in the same racial group had history not unfolded as it did.
When you add the additional layer of language, dress, housing, and culture, well there are significantly more differences than many of the european varieties.
So, my suggestion is, for each "race," pick a very specific subgroup for each race. For the Flan, for example, you could use the Cherokee and the Scotts (did i mention that I am cherokee and scottish )
For the dwarves, I would suggest that you not just pick the "norse," but say the Danes from 1300 AD. This will probably be limited by how much you can seperate and make distinct with a google search.
If you start with a very specific group, with their art, culture, etc., and build with your own artistic sense, I THINK, that it will result in a unique and distint vision. It would be a good starting place at least.
good advice Anced_Math. The examples I gave were just initial thoughts and broad themes. I have already begun pin-pointing more specific groups and more specific time periods.
My knowledge of Native American anthropology is quite basic but I will look into various groups.
The illustrations will at times only be able to represent one group withink the cultures otherwise you could fill a book in itself with various ancient tribes within say the Flan or Oeridian ancient cultures. It is in many ways better to leave some so that players, whilst having a basis to go buy, still feel able to develop thing sin their own way.
The Ancient cultures also remain quite vague. There must have been various usb groups within the Flan for example but these have never been detailed. Perhaps one of the Ancient Suel houses had a higher amount of albinos and so wherever that House migrated to might also have a higher chance of albinos but as to the specifics it's better to let the players and Dms decide perhaps?
Am I right in thinking that at the time of the Twin Cataclysms the Oeridians were little more than barbarians formed into a number of tribes?
I have seen the demi-human illustrations in the DMG but to me they seem a bit generic so I hoped to give them all an appearance that might blend well into Greyhawk.
Okay. Here is a list, not guaranteed to be complete, of art that says "Greyhawk" to me. In no particular order:
(1) The cover of the 83 boxed set;
(2) The covers of Puppets, the 1E Unearthed Arcana and Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure; all taken together, they are sort of a magical Greyhawk triptich (put Mordenainen's Fantastic Adventure in the middle);
(3) The covers of Dragon Magazines Nos. 55, 62, 63 and 68. No. 63 is especially evocative. Love the slanting beams of light in the forest.
(4) The bw drawing on page 29 of Dragon 69.
(5) The bw drawing on pages 42 and 43 of Dragon No. 68 and the bw drawing on pages 52 and 53 of that same issue. I really like the contrasting light effects in what is essentially the same picture - daylght and darkness. These are my favorite pieces of Greyhawk fantasy art without question. They are not the slickest but to me they "feel" like Greyhawk more than any others.
Well, that's my list. A bit long in the tooth but so am I, in Greyhawk years. _________________ GVD
If you need some reference help on GH stuff theres a lot on my page and I'm always here to help. Feel free to leave a PM anytime.
If anyone is also interested I have been working on various bits of GH art. A sample of my work can be found on http://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan (look under the portfolio area). The site is devoted to D&D in general with some off the wall bits here and there. =)
I hope that this project is progressing well. I greatly appreciate the idea and the imagery.
I suggest reviewing the 1983 WoG boxed set for a detailed description of the clothing styles of the various ancestral races of humanity. See the Catalogue 13-15. Given Wolfling's knowledge of real clothing styles, I think that Gygax's descriptions will provide inspiration.
Also, inspired by the imagery, the idea came to mind that Mike might create a set of images that evoke a short story--one that features both characters and landscapes. We might even create mini-postfests based upon each image.
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