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    Canonfire :: View topic - Devil cultists in Greyhawk
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    Devil cultists in Greyhawk
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:26 pm  
    Devil cultists in Greyhawk

    How many devil cults have insignia to identify their followers? I think it was the old Gord of Greyhawk novels that had one guy have a tattoo under his tongue (yikes!) as proof of worshiping Asmodeus. Any other devil lords of the Nine Hell have anything similar required of their mortal followers?
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    Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:20 pm  

    I think the Horned Society and their shield insignia is devil worshipping, though I'm not sure which they favor.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:32 pm  

    My understanding is that the Hierarchs serve Nerull.

    -Lanthorn
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    Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:19 am  

    In the Gord novels, the Heirarchs serve Nerull, and even summon him (his avatar?) to Oerth, IIRC.
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    Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:14 am  

    Hrm, this is very true. My bad. I thought there was one or two among the Hierarchs that are/were devil worshipers though. Warduke perhaps?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:21 am  

    From the Gazeteer of the Flanaess p 26:

    "Deviltry is the religion of the Society..."

    I think Nerull was their patron power, but other devils probably had a following as well.
    GreySage

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    Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:42 pm  

    I think I heard/read somewhere that Hextor was also represented, too.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:17 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    From the Gazeteer of the Flanaess p 26:

    "Deviltry is the religion of the Society..."

    I think Nerull was their patron power, but other devils probably had a following as well.


    There's another interesting tidbit, in my opinion, listed at the very end from that paragraph: "...and the Horned Society is on favorable terms with Iuz."

    Of course, that 'friendship' is repaid in treachery when Iuz annihilates them in Coldeven with his tanar'ri servants. This makes me wonder why the devil-worshipping Hierarchs (primarily LE) would at all ally with the demon-spawned Iuz (CE). They are natural enemies given the Blood War spawned of the Lower Planes. Of course, maybe this was an 'oversight' corrected in later publications. Just a thought.

    -Lanthorn
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    Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:04 am  

    mortellan wrote:
    Hrm, this is very true. My bad. I thought there was one or two among the Hierarchs that are/were devil worshipers though. Warduke perhaps?


    The Critical Threats profile of Warduke in DNG 105 show him as a follower of the Unnamed Hierarch, who after being assassinated by Iuz returned as a great devil due to a pact with Baalzebul. Curiously though, Warduke is CE. There's some speculation that the Unnamed was Erac;s Cousin. If that's true then Baalzebul was probably one of their patrons. The devil worship of the Hierarchs was another source of tension with Iuz.
    Wasn't there also a Dungeon adventure that dealt with a post-Wars cell of the Horned Society?
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    Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:13 am  

    Lanthorn Wrote:

    Quote:
    Of course, that 'friendship' is repaid in treachery when Iuz annihilates them in Coldeven with his tanar'ri servants. This makes me wonder why the devil-worshipping Hierarchs (primarily LE) would at all ally with the demon-spawned Iuz (CE). They are natural enemies given the Blood War spawned of the Lower Planes. Of course, maybe this was an 'oversight' corrected in later publications. Just a thought.


    I suspect their was some mutual interest between them, mainly against the nations of Furyondy and the Shield Lands. However, the friendship was always false... the Hierarchs had taken over a portion of Iuz original kingdom during his imprisonment beneath Castle Greyhawk, which he would never forgive. Iuz seemed to follow the policy of building his strength quietly, and waiting for the right time to strike, while the Horned Society and Bandit Kingdoms made themselves the international menace... overall, a wise strategy for the Lord of Evil.
    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:10 am  

    Tarelton, you make logical sense, but I still wonder why a demon-spawned Iuz and devil-worshipping nation would ally together given the deep-seated enmity between those fiends of the Lower Planes. I have a difficult time thinking devils and demons would set aside their mutual, ingrained hate for each other long enough to destroy 'good' folk. I guess it's all about interpretation, of course.

    If, however, the rivalry/hatred between devils and demons, especially among their servants on the Prime Material, is not all-consuming, this could explain how Iuz was able to insinuate some of his servants (such as clerics, including Lesser Boneheart priest Panshazek, who is reputed to have served as a spy in the Horned Lands prior to the Wars) into the ranks of the Horned Society.

    Another sidenote. I've always had a strong distaste for the 'ease' with which Iuz and his demons annihilated the Horned Society. Clerics of Nerull are no push-overs and with their own devil agents and abilities to Plane Shift, etc., I found it too 'easy' for the minions of the Old One to topple that nation. Confused

    But, perhaps that is for another thread entirely...

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:49 pm  
    Re: Devil cultists in Greyhawk

    Uptognomegood wrote:
    How many devil cults have insignia to identify their followers? I think it was the old Gord of Greyhawk novels that had one guy have a tattoo under his tongue (yikes!) as proof of worshiping Asmodeus. Any other devil lords of the Nine Hell have anything similar required of their mortal followers?


    Asmodeus's symbols include a clawed fist gripping a skull, a ruby-tipped rod, and an inverted pentagram.

    Baalzebul's symbols include a fly's head, a web with flies dangling from it, and an enthroned slug.

    Belial's symbols are a two-pronged ranseur and a handsome male face with dark features and small horns. A more elaborate symbol of Belial involves red, glowing eyes over a two-pronged ranseur, surrounded by a red tail with a wicked barb. His daughter Fierna's symbol is similar.

    Dispater's symbol is a fortress embossed on a reinforced metal shield.

    Geryon's symbol is a bull's head surrounded by a serpentine border.

    Glasya's symbol is a copper scourge.

    The Hag Countess's symbol is a pair of black-feathered wings on a white background.

    Levistus's symbol is a sword thrust through a block of ice, or a cauldron with chunks of ice floating in it.

    Mammon's symbol is a pair of red scaled hands open and looming over a black gemstone, or gold medallions emblazoned with the image of a snake-bodied devil.

    Mephistopheles's symbol is a flame made of copper and gold, or a red hand with black fingernails shrouded in dark flames.

    I don't know what Moloch's symbol is.

    Tiamat's symbol is a five-headed dragon.

    In Gary Gygax's novel Artifact of Evil there were thirteen Hierarchs of the Horned Society. Of those thirteen, three represented the planes of neutral evil: Tarterus, Hades, and Gehenna. Possibly nine of them represented the Nine Hells, and the tenth... perhaps the tenth was the Unnameable Hierarch, ruler of them all.

    The adventure "Strike on the Rabid Dawn" in Dungeon #111 featured a priest of Asmodeus who was part of the Horned Society. "After years of wandering, Markosian aligned himself with a secretive organization of devil-worshipers called the Horned Society."

    "Critical Threats: Warduke" in Dungeon #105 mentioned that the leader of the Horned Society, the Unnameable Hierarch, is a follower of Baalzebul.
    GreySage

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    Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:36 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Tarelton, you make logical sense, but I still wonder why a demon-spawned Iuz and devil-worshipping nation would ally together given the deep-seated enmity between those fiends of the Lower Planes. I have a difficult time thinking devils and demons would set aside their mutual, ingrained hate for each other long enough to destroy 'good' folk. I guess it's all about interpretation, of course.


    For what it's worth, my take on the 'friendly' terms that Iuz and the Horned Society were supposedly on is that it was simply a misinterpretation by the chronicler who wrote the World of Greyhawk Gazetter (1983). Assuming that the two nations simply didn't pursue a war against each other and seemed equally evil to all outside nations, it would be understandable for an outsider to assume that those two had formed an 'Axis of Evil' when the reality was that they hated each other, but were more interested in pursuing death and destruction against the more goodly nations neighboring them than against each other, at the moment.

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    GreySage

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    Mon Dec 23, 2013 9:33 am  

    SX, I like your interpretation and give it my thumbs' up (for all that it does, or does not, matter).

    -Lanthorn
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    Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:42 am  

    You also have to remember that deep seated enmity between the fiends of the Lower Planes hadn't gelled like it did later, especially in terms of the Blood War, when all of this was conceived. Like so many other things in GH, it's left to us to resolve the seeming inconsistencies (which is one of the things I love about the organic nature of the setting). That said, we seem to be doing a fine job of that in forums like these! Good work, guys! Smile
    GreySage

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    Wed Dec 25, 2013 1:21 pm  

    Quite apart from any rivalry between the rulers of the various lower planes, Iuz viewed the Hierarchs as usurpers who had stolen his winter capital, Molag, from him during his imprisonment and compounded the insult by refusing to acknowledge his natural superiority upon his return. He despised them above all else and any alliance between them was always meant to be only a temporary convenience until Iuz had rebuilt his resources enough to confidently destroy them, as he did in Gary Gygax's novel Artifact of Evil.

    Iuz was never more interested in attacking the good nations; reclaiming his old empire was his first priority. The Horned Society may have foolish enough to believe their nation could cooexist with Iuz based on mutual interests, but they were badly mistaken.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:29 am  

    Rasgon, thanks for that added information, as I dimly recall reading that which you mentioned...somewhere...maybe it was from the Greyhawk Wars boxed set, or Iuz the Evil. At any rate, you clarified the main reasons why Iuz wanted to annihilate the Hierarchs.

    Personally, I was hoping Nerull would take severe umbrage from the Old One destroying his powerful foothold in the Prime Material, and destroy or severely cripple Iuz's own power base...but the authors deemed otherwise and allowed 'the Good Guys' to do it. Such a twist would surely, in my opinion, toss in an uncharacteristic curve ball, and also show the Old One that there ARE other Powers, not necessarily 'Good' ones, that could keep him in check.

    Just my thoughts.

    -Lanthorn
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    Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:35 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Personally, I was hoping Nerull would take severe umbrage from the Old One destroying his powerful foothold in the Prime Material, and destroy or severely cripple Iuz's own power base . . . Such a twist would surely . . . show the Old One that there ARE other Powers, not necessarily 'Good' ones, that could keep him in check.


    And normally, that's how it would work. Either Nerull, or the Lords of the Nine, would indeed have taken exception to Iuz's umbrage.

    But, as you pointed out, the writers at W.o.t.C. had other ideas. I don't say "plans," because that requires forethought, something obviously lacking here.
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    Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:31 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    Tarelton, you make logical sense, but I still wonder why a demon-spawned Iuz and devil-worshipping nation would ally together given the deep-seated enmity between those fiends of the Lower Planes. I have a difficult time thinking devils and demons would set aside their mutual, ingrained hate for each other long enough to destroy 'good' folk. I guess it's all about interpretation, of course.


    For what it's worth, my take on the 'friendly' terms that Iuz and the Horned Society were supposedly on is that it was simply a misinterpretation by the chronicler who wrote the World of Greyhawk Gazetter (1983)...


    -I retconned it to a brief truce (think Nazi-Soviet Pact) CY 575-576. I don't have my sources with me, but I think EGG's Flanaess articles (Dragon late-50s) mentioned fighting between Iuz and the HS in 577-578. I definitely assume that they are at war 579-581. FWIW.

    warlock wrote:
    In the Gord novels, the Heirarchs serve Nerull, and even summon him (his avatar?) to Oerth, IIRC.


    -IIRC, Anthraxus (Daemon Lord) was present at the Blood Moon Festival coup. A mention by Rasgon:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=33830&highlight=molag#33830

    I figure that Nerull, the Devils, and the Daemons (Yugloths) are all worshipped in the Horned Society. It probably plays a role in the inevitable factionalized back-stabbing.
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    Fri Dec 27, 2013 4:21 pm  

    Anthraxus made an appearance before the Hierarchs in Artifact of Evil, but I made up the idea that he was present at their massacre.
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    Mon Dec 30, 2013 8:16 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Anthraxus made an appearance before the Hierarchs in Artifact of Evil, but I made up the idea that he was present at their massacre.


    I won't have a chance to read it for a while, but the impression I got is that he put in an appearance at the celebration when the hit was made and couldn't stop it.
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    Mon Dec 30, 2013 1:24 pm  

    As for "The Horned Society", I wonder whose horns are they ? I assume they are devils horns, like, you know, the horned devils - the malebranches.

    Also, horned devils are from the sixth and seven layers of the Nine Hells: Malebolge and Maladomini. And 1st edition speaking, those hells were Baalzebul's realms - Moloch being his viceroy.

    Therefore, I think that the Horned Society worships Baalzebul. Baalzebul allied himself with neutral evil powers like Anthraxus or Nerull, and the Hierarchs were LE or NE...
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    Tue Dec 31, 2013 11:48 am  

    For what it's worth, Christopher Jean Markosian is one of the named Hierarchs and was a worshiper of Asmodeus.

    I don't see the Ruler of the Nine Hells allowing Iuz -- or any Demon Lord, for that matter -- to stamp out his worshipers.

    http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Asmodeus

    So for me -- at least -- the whole situation just doesn't jive. Confused
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    Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:36 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    And normally, that's how it would work. Either Nerull, or the Lords of the Nine, would indeed have taken exception to Iuz's umbrage.


    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I don't see the Ruler of the Nine Hells allowing Iuz -- or any Demon Lord, for that matter -- to stamp out his worshipers.


    What do you expect him to do about it? Travel personally to Oerth and kill Iuz over a few mortals? Even if there wasn't a pact forbidding entities of Asmodeus's (or Nerull's) rank from interfering directly on the Material Plane (Vecna Lives!, et al), Asmodeus has bigger things on his plate. As you said, he's the ruler of the Nine Hells, an entire plane of existence, with millions of devils and damned souls under his leadership.

    It's not that he wouldn't care about losing some valued mortal minions on one world, it's just that he wouldn't care very much. If they failed him that badly, they were never very good minions in the first place. And he still has their souls, to torment or promote or whatever he pleases.

    Iuz the Evil explained this pretty well:

    Carl Sargent wrote:
    Iuz has the Prime Material as his home plane, and Oerth as his home world within that plane. Other Powers dwell elsewhere and look over many worlds on the Prime Material. Thus, they do not give Oerth the undivided attention Iuz does and it is almost a Law of the Powers that they do not intervene directly in the Prime Material to strike at a deity which has its being there. The key word, of course, is directly.


    Carl Sargent wrote:
    One final point bears stressing here. On Oerth, if a Power acts directly with the permission of the other Powers (and the Greater Powers are the ones who really count), that Power and its allies are then indebted to the others.


    Carl Sargent wrote:
    Iuz hates and fears Nerull. Many of the Hierarchs served The Reaper, and Iuz fears the wrath of the sickle-wielding one. Iuz knows rationally that Nerull is unlikely to act directly because of the loss of one small land in the many worlds where he reaps his grim harvests, but still Iuz fears.


    What's the alternative? A world where the gods and archfiends themselves enforce the political boundaries of the world? That would prevent the mortals from having any agency; it would prevent the player characters from having any agency. I suppose if the endgame of your campaign is to force the PCs to kill a greater god (and I'm speaking of Nerull here), then that would work, but it seems like a high bar to force them to hurdle.

    Far better to have a world that mere mortals can change, a world with real stakes and the potential for change and growth, a fluid world where mortal armies can bring down nations and villains can't sit complacently, laughing at their invulnerability due to their immortal sponsors.

    Or, for that matter, it's better to have a world where Belvor can't just laugh and say "you can't kill me, Iuz, because Heironeous would have his vengeance." A world where Asmodeus or Nerull protect their worshipers through personal intervention is a world where Heironeous and Rao do the same thing. If nobody can kill the Heirarchs without being hounded by devils for all eternity, nobody can kill Canon Hazen without being hounded by astral devas. It would ruin any sense that there are real stakes. Or it'd result in a world eternally consumed by a direct war between celestials and fiends, because mortal pawns are going to be killed. That's what they're best at.

    The Material Plane is a chess board, and if one planar entity loses a piece, they're most likely to get a new piece and resume the game. To interfere personally is the equivalent of one chess player flipping the board over and starting a fistfight with the other player; it's not impossible, but it changes the nature of the game considerably. It risks ruining the board, and it risks the other player's friends coming in and joining in on the fistfight, or bringing more dangerous weapons into the fray. Is Nerull or Asmodeus or Baalzebul really prepared to escalate the conflict that badly, to risk Graz'zt and Pazuzu and Heironeous and St. Cuthbert and Rao joining in and tearing the Material Plane apart for the sake of a few mortal losers?

    Yes, Asmodeus and Nerull are probably annoyed, but they're immortal and patient; they have the long view, they have a hundred other plots and schemes in play. This sort of thing has happened countless times before; they've lost nations and entire worlds to their rivals over the eons, and won them as well. The game continues. A few mortals that failed them are not worth ruining the whole game for.

    The whole reason clerics are granted powers, the whole reason the non-interference pact exists, is so they don't have to give up the entire game over one failed plot. Maybe someday Nerull will have a scheme worth destroying everything for; maybe that's his ultimate goal, but he remembers when Tharizdun tried to do that, and what happened to him. No, he's content with advancing his goals slowly, through pawns and proxies, rather than having all the other powers - Asmodeus very much included - band together to bind him in a prison in order to make sure the game can continue for the rest of them. Yes, Asmodeus was in Nerull's and Tharizdun's camp in the Gord novels, but as a personification of Law I think it's more plausible that he would work to ensure the multiverse was preserved, as he did in the Golarion setting; it doesn't matter, really, even Gary Gygax didn't have Nerull take on Iuz directly over pawns so pathetic as the Heirarchs; they aren't that important, and they're not even dead, enough of them survived that the game continues.
    GreySage

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    Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:47 pm  

    What you said is a "given," but, since you ask:

    rasgon wrote:
    What do you expect him to do about it? Travel personally to Oerth and kill Iuz over a few mortals?


    Nope! But Iuz didn't "do" anything either, not personally. He didn't go "fist fight" anyone. He received hordes of demons from his father, Graz'zt, and possibly others, and the demons did the work. Therefore, in truth, Christopher Jean Markosian -- and the others -- did not "fail" Asmodeus "badly," they were simply over-matched. Why shouldn't Asmodeus send devils to aid Markosian? As the Source books say, they fight the Blood War everywhere.

    rasgon wrote:
    It's not that he wouldn't care about losing some valued mortal minions on one world, it's just that he wouldn't care very much.


    As I said, he would care how he lost them . . . to hordes of demons.

    In a very real sense, Graz'zt did intervene in a "direct" manner -- by proxy -- by sending his demons. Just as Rao intervened by proxy -- the staff. It may be a piece of wood, but in truth, it was Rao's power that dismissed the demons, not a piece of wood.

    Asmodeus also could have intervened "by proxy" too -- by sending devils to aid Markosian.
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    Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:56 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Why shouldn't Asmodeus send devils to aid Markosian?


    Well, Markosian wasn't involved with the Horned Society yet at the time of the Blood Moon Massacre. That's why Markosian is still alive (a few others survived for other reasons; the soul of Erac's Cousin was promoted to greater devil status and sent back to Oerth by Baalzebul). He joined the organization later.

    Quote:
    As the Source books say, they fight the Blood War everywhere.


    I'm not sure what source books you're quoting. This isn't really true; for the most part, the Blood War is confined to the lower planes. If the Blood War spread to Oerth, there soon wouldn't be an Oerth. And that's why Asmodeus doesn't send devils to avenge his favorite mortals when demons kill them. Because then Iuz would send demons to avenge that, and these things escalate.

    In the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, which introduced the concept of the Blood War, Mordenkainen had a vision of the Blood War one day extending to include Oerth and he was absolutely terrified, because he knew that would be the end of humanity on that world.

    And, of course, by 1st edition rules Asmodeus lacks the power to transport devils to the Material Plane on his own; he needs mortal magic-users to summon them. "No devil is able to enter the other planes [besides Gehenna, Hades, Acheron, and the Astral] unless the proper ritual is performed, a gate is opened, or the proper name of a devil is spoken (and heard)." - Monster Manual, page 20. 2nd edition sources retconned that to some degree, but they still place restrictions against baatezu roaming the planes at will (Faces of Evil: The Fiends, page 26).

    Even if it was the case that the Blood War sometimes spilled over into the Material Plane (and it is, it does happen, much to the sorrow of mortals caught in the crossfire; I'll point to Faces of Evil page 8), the very fact that the Blood War is so vast and can manifest in so many cases (not everywhere, the Upper Planes are too well defended, but it's a big war with many fronts) is why Asmodeus isn't going to casually send valuable troops to Oerth to avenge a few lousy failures. There are many, many more important fronts than the Horned Society, which wasn't even primarily dedicated to him, and if he's moving troops from those more important fronts to annoy Graz'zt's bastard he's going to lose those more important battles.

    On the other hand, if you believe Guide to Hell, the Blood War is only a distraction from Asmodeus's real goals anyway, and he doesn't actually care about it. And if he doesn't care about the entire Blood War, he certainly doesn't care about a few Hierarchs getting offed by demons.

    Quote:
    In a very real sense, Graz'zt did intervene in a "direct" manner -- by proxy -- by sending his demons. Just as Rao intervened by proxy -- the staff. It may be a piece of wood, but in truth, it was Rao's power that dismissed the demons, not a piece of wood.


    Iuz has demons under his command because the Boneheart opened up gates to the Abyss and because he made some very tenuous bargains with Graz'zt, Pazuzu, and Lolth, three demon lords who hate each other and aren't very fond of Iuz either. Graz'zt didn't just send demons to Oerth with his own power; he was able to do it because spellcasters of sufficient level were able to perform the required rituals and cast the proper spells. And doing so still cost him in real ways because it attracted the attention of his rivals, and the attention of the Hells too. They all have to step very carefully from now on.

    The "flight of the fiends" plot was pretty terrible for a variety of reasons; a crude deus ex machina like that is never a good idea when mere Abyssal politics would have sufficed. Maybe Graz'zt needed to send his troops elsewhere because their deployment to Oerth left his realm undefended; maybe Iuz failed to give his sire proper respect, or the other demon lords he was bargaining with demanded more favors than he was willing to give, or Pazuzu started doing too much and Graz'zt pulled his troops back to attack Pazuzu. Maybe Asmodeus did start sending devils to reinforce the Horned Society or the Great Kingdom, and the demons got wind of it and ambushed them before they could reach the gate, and the subsequent battle on the Lower Planes forced them all to ignore Oerth for a while.

    Having Rao simply whoosh all the demons away is deeply problematic, because if Rao can do that, why can't Nerull or Incabulos counter it with an artifact of his own (maybe they will eventually, but we've been given no indication of that)? If there was more indication that there was a real cost suffered by Hazen and Bigby, that it was their power as high-level spellcasters that did the trick and not Rao's own power, it would fit better into what we know about the D&D cosmology.

    Because that's how it's supposed to work. Clerics gain power as they rise in experience, not because their gods arbitrarily decide to channel power through them. If Rao (hypothetically) used a first level cleric as his vessel to banish all demons from Oerth, he's not actually using a proxy; he's just using his own power and calling it a proxy. There would be no point in having high-level clerics if he could do that.

    When Iuz the Evil said the gods work through proxies, Sargent meant mortal clerics, paladins, wizards, rangers, fighters and so on who serve the gods have to earn their power through their own efforts. That's the essence of how the D&D game works. It's a game about mortals rising in power through experience, not a game about immortals having fights among themselves, so for the most part, on the mortal plane, mortals have to find their own power and the immortals have to rely on their ability to do so.

    Iuz has demons because he has spellcasters capable of summoning them. And because he has power on Oerth that Asmodeus doesn't, since it's his home ground. And because he's one of the few powers who actually cares that much about Oerth specifically; to Graz'zt, Asmodeus, Nerull, and others, Oerth is only one of many worlds.

    Hazen banished the fiends because he, with Bigby's help and the artifact's, was a high enough spellcaster to do that (which is unlikely given the scale of the effect, but it's the only way this makes sense). And of course, there should be more indication that the creation of the artifact itself left Rao profoundly weakened and vulnerable in a way his rivals wouldn't countenance; that might explain why Rao is so distant from the affairs of Oerth in modern times. I mean - I'm getting a little off topic here, sometimes you have to use artifacts because PCs are never going to be powerful enough on their own, and as long as they have to go through a lot of trouble to get them it's okay, but there should still be consequences that the gods themselves aren't always willing to pay.

    If Asmodeus has servants on Oerth that are high enough level to summon devils, those servants can summon devils and do whatever they want with them, including sending them on fruitless raids against Iuz.

    But Asmodeus isn't going to do it on his own. That's not how the D&D game works. Or, at least, I'd argue that it shouldn't.
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:07 pm  

    Well thought out and well reasoned. There are several points in which I am in complete agreement, feeling the same way.

    Time is short for me. I'll post other thoughts on this later.

    Thanks for the input!
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    GreySage

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    Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:23 pm  

    I agree that Nerull, or any Power for that matter, would/should not materialize onto Oerth (barring extreme circumstances) for risk of destabilizing the 'balance' that has been set and destroying the Prime Material. There is logic and reasoning about the vast scope of influence that Greater Powers (like Nerull) hold over the various Planes, but I still think that he would be more than mildly annoyed that some upstart cambion 'pup' was able to destroy his (Nerull's) firmest foothold in Oerth through his most powerful mortal agents. That was why I was hoping for the authors to have Nerull put Iuz in check later in the Wars through his surviving agents (mortal, devil, what have you) rather than the stereotypical 'the good guys did it.'

    My main complaint was the ease with which Iuz dispatched the Horned Society. I understand how he was able to manipulate the barbarian tribes and also cow the fractious Bandit Kingdoms, but I think the Hierarchs would have given him far more resistance than was suggested. They should've at least stalled his progress before launching more strikes against the "Goodly nations," if not thwart it entirely. I think the authors underestimated the Hierarchs' powers, or overestimated Iuz's.

    But that's just my opinion,

    Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 1:57 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    But that's just my opinion . . .


    And one I share. The other powers could have easily operated via their minions. I think they would have.
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    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:43 pm  

    Then I consider that I am in "good" company. Happy

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 3:55 pm  

    Here's how Gary Gygax told the story in Artifact of Evil:

    Quote:
    A gate was opened between Oerth and the world where giants ruled. Bands of mighty hill, mountain, and frost giants roamed from the Howling Hills southward. Before them they drove the regiments of orcs and hobgoblins who had sought to hold the land for the Hierarchs. These troops fled into the Fellreev or away into the open steppes, where the Rovers of the Barrens allowed them no mercy. Some took service with the kinglets of the bandit states to the east, for much of this territory had been freed of the grip of the Hierarchs but recently, and even troops such as these were acceptable to the newly returned rulers there.

    Many regiments managed to return southward to Molag, though, where they thought there would be safety. Most died there. The city was soon under siege. First the wild kin of these humanoids made up the bulk of the attackers, but soon enough things far worse than troll and ogre, bugbear and gnoll, were there. The masters of the Hierarchs summoned monstrous creatures from the lower planes to fortify the defense of Molag. Hideous hordlings rubbed shoulders with even worse - daemons of all sorts, and the awful demodands of Tarterus.

    In answer to this, the besieging force was sent demons when they cried for aid. The retreat of Iuz's forces became a sudden advance again, as hundreds upon hundreds of demons of all manner were loosed to combat the Hierarchs' reinforcements from Tarterus, Hades, and Gehenna. Not only were these forces outnumbered, but many hordlings, secretly despising their masters and favoring the chaos of the Abyss, went over to Iuz. Men and humanoids, even those of power or fearsomeness, stayed low and did nothing as demons fought daemons, hordlings tore hordlings or demodanda, and were rent in turn.

    Monstrous forces hopped and ran, crawled and wiggled, flapped and fluttered in a terrible dance of death and destruction around the city of Molag. Many demons died, but still more came daily, until the whole place was ringed with them, and the air above the city became unsafe for any who did not serve the Abyss.

    Then the Dukes of Hell took an interest in what was happening. They sent legions of their servants to asist the masters of the Hierarchs because their cause was one with Nerull and the rest. Cohorts of abishai - blue, red, gree, black, and white devils of winged sort - appeared in the sky to contest with the demons there. From spined devils to mighty pit fiends, the Nine Hells sent forth their companies.

    Those who had lesser power died, destroyed forever - whether daemon, demon, demodand, hordling, devil, or any other of the foulness being belched up from the vile lower planes. The terrible battle raged day and night for a week. When it finally ended, all of the things summoned were dead or returned to their own places. It had to be thus, or else the great rulers would be drawn into the contest, and none - demon, devil, or otherwise - cared to risk this over some petty piece of the Prime Material Plane at this particular conjunction of probability. The Hells were satisfied that they had checked their Abyssal foes. There was time enough to take from the demon-spawned Iuz that which he had stolen.

    Nerull seethed with fury at the setback, but Tarterus wavered, and if he continued to fight openly then, more likely than not, other of the lords of the Abyss would unite to oppose the conjunction of Evil. The Reaper too decided to bide his time.

    Molag fell to the mundane armies of Iuz. The cambion's realm now extended from the Dulsi River in the west to the verge of the Fellreev Forest and the banks of the Ritensa to the east. The writ of Iuz extended northward to the Cold Marshes and south to the Veng River and the border marches of Furyondy and the Shield Lands. Bandit lordlings now pledged their fealty to Iuz, while ambassadors from the nomads of the cold northwestern plains and the strange realm of Blackmoor came with gifts and offers of alliance. Even the master of the distant holdings called Stonefist considered such steps, so great was the fame which came to the cambion upon his overthrow of the Hierarchs.

    Of the Hierarchs themselves, not even Iuz knew for certain. Those who had served these men had either died or taken service under their new master. Some few escaped, of course, and the Ten had surely managed to flee somewhere. Rumor said they had been carried far to the south, but nothing was known beyond this tale.
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 4:20 pm  

    Excellent referencing, but you are renowned for such things, Rasgon.

    -Lanthorn
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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:04 pm  

    So, Nerull and Asmodeus did do something and -- no doubt -- exhausted Iuz's forces. Cool

    This tells me that Iuz was "checked." His "mundane armies" captured Molag, but were obviously insufficient to proceed further. The conquest of the "good nations" would have to wait, as Iuz no longer had the power to take them by force. Sad

    Rasgon's original comments led me to believe that the Powers of Hell and Tartarus did nothing at all, which isn't true, as is now apparent. They did enter the fray and their interference prevented Iuz from flooding over Furyondy and the others, through their exhausting of Iuz's mundane armies and the slaughtering of his demons. Evil Grin

    Works for me! Wink
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    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:37 pm  

    Like you, Mystic, this exerpt from "Grandfather Gygax's" own self-penned novel greatly reduces my ire and distaste as to the outcome of the conflict between Iuz and the Hierarchs. I just wish the authors of "From the Ashes" and "Wars" would have added this bit of information to the general reading population, as it makes for good sense and an explanation. Without this addendum, it makes Iuz appear completely omnipotent.

    Thanks again, Rasgon, for posting this little gem of insight (I never knew you owned one!). Happy

    You now get an extra character point in your Research proficiency.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 08, 2014 10:21 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    I just wish the authors of "From the Ashes" and "Wars" would have added this bit of information to the general reading population, as it makes for good sense and an explanation. Without this addendum, it makes Iuz appear completely omnipotent.


    They were probably written during the time that TSR was separating itself from E.G.G. Don't know for sure, of course, without looking at dates.

    But this "diamond" from Rasgon makes me feel better about the whole situation. Wink

    Rasgon appears in chapter 11 of "That Infamous Key," by the way. Turns out he's quite the acrobatic swordsman. Evil Grin
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Mar 02, 2014 6:19 pm  
    My take on the Horned Society - Iuz wars

    Never to miss a chance to link to my own articles, my take on the Horned Society/Iuz war was touched on in a couple articless here on Canonfire:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=453&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=539&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=938&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    In a nutshell, my take on the Greyhawk Wars was that some of the most powerful members of the HS were not in Molag for Iuz's attack, contrary to the published materials. These survivors are now organized in an elaborate contingency plan prepared for just such an emergency. They strike out at Iuz and good aligned nations alike, many with additional powers granted by their Hellish masters. To top things off, a devil knight leads them as the representative from the nether realms.

    Well, that's my take on it, in my opinion, the Horned Society deserved better than how they were depicted in FtA, and this was my way to balance the scales a bit.

    O-D
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