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    Canonfire :: View topic - Changing PC Alignment
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    Changing PC Alignment
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    From: Mt. Smolderac

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    Thu Oct 01, 2015 5:46 pm  
    Changing PC Alignment

    What's the point when you would change a players alignment? I'm asking because a player in my current campaign is chaotic neutral, and I have to say he does a fantastic job of roleplaying it, sometimes to the annoyance of the other players. I love it because it challenges me as a DM to react to the surprising things he does. He's selfish, arrogant, hot-headed, mercurial, a cheat -- all the things you would expect from someone pushing his alignment to the max, but he's never done anything you would really call evil -- until a couple of sessions ago. Basically, he attempted to kill an NPC hireling for the simple reason he was annoyed with the guy. Very chaotic, but also super evil. I gave him a warning by basically saying "What's your alignment? Well, that was an evil act." I knew what his alignment was, but it was my way of putting him on notice. Attempted murder, especially for no real reason is pretty evil, but I'm willing to give him one more chance before changing his alignment, especially considering I didn't do it right off the bat, since I wanted to take some time to mull it over. So, basically I'm thinking a two strikes out policy for this one, especially considering his current alignment. I have to add that I used to be the kind of DM where a player doing something like this would have annoyed me, but now I look at it as a challenge to my skills as a DM. Little do the players suspect what consequences this one act is going to have. This is going to be really fun! Evil Grin
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Thu Oct 01, 2015 10:44 pm  

    Killing for no reason is certainly evil. If the character persists, then turn them - unbeknownst to them even. Falling into evil is not necessarily a considered choice, but actions do have consequences. To what extent they manifest, and in what form (s) can potentially be very interesting.

    Any non-evil members, particularly any good-aligned priests and such, might begin to receive vague dreams/visions that evil lurks near them. The PC won't register as evil unless they are detected in the midst of evil thoughts, but it will at the very create a sense of unease. Also, if any murder is done, the local authorities may very well step in. Long ago, we had one PC hanged after killing someone in a bar fight. "What's the DM going to do, kill my character?" Why yes, the DM is going to kill your character, you moron! Some players can just be stupid sometimes, thinking laws don't apply to their characters. Or, the character could draw unwanted attention of an altogether more sinister kind.

    So....

    - good aligned holy characters might start to get very subtle clues that something is not right near and about them.
    - the local authorities might come after them.
    - the character finds a not in their room/pack...something to the effect of "The Lord Nerull approves."...and the fun begins.

    Me being me, I would probably opt for the last idea, as it is a reason to drag every PC into some dark craziness. Evil Grin
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:37 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Killing for no reason is certainly evil. If the character persists, then turn them - unbeknownst to them even. Falling into evil is not necessarily a considered choice, but actions do have consequences. To what extent they manifest, and in what form (s) can potentially be very interesting.

    Any non-evil members, particularly any good-aligned priests and such, might begin to receive vague dreams/visions that evil lurks near them. The PC won't register as evil unless they are detected in the midst of evil thoughts, but it will at the very create a sense of unease.


    I'd rather be upfront about alignment change and let the player know. IMC, and in 5e, it's more a guide than a mechanic. There are some interactions with intelligent magic items and things like that where if you are carrying them, your alignment is going to matter. But as far as detect evil, in 5e it only detects on "pure" evil or good, i.e. extraplanar creatures that are supernatural paragons of their ethos. At first I didn't like it. but upon thinking about it, it makes the game more complicated in that something like a complex mystery can't be solved by the cleric casting a 1st level spell.

    "Who's been murdering all the travelers passing through town?"
    Cleric detects evil. "Why it's Johnson, the Miller! and he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that party of meddling adventurers and their cleric."

    Cebrion wrote:
    Also, if any murder is done, the local authorities may very well step in. Long ago, we had one PC hanged after killing someone in a bar fight. "What's the DM going to do, kill my character?" Why yes, the DM is going to kill your character, you moron! Some players can just be stupid sometimes, thinking laws don't apply to their characters. Or, the character could draw unwanted attention of an altogether more sinister kind.


    I'm very much a "This is how the world works and there are consequences to your interactions with the people in it" DM, and my players are very aware of this. There was already another instance where CN character (the murdery one) totally screwed up the party's first job by trying to con and then strong-arm the agent of their patron when they were in another town. Word got back to the patron, and when he questioned them about it, the CN character totally flew of the handle and insulted him. Fortunately, I was prepared for that eventuality and it all played out well, although some of the other members of the party were really annoyed. It's turned out to be very much a Firefly-type party, with the CN character acting the part of Jayne.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 09, 2003
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    Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:23 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    I'd rather be upfront about alignment change and let the player know. IMC, and in 5e, it's more a guide than a mechanic...


    -Actually, if it's just a guide rather than a mechanic, why NOT have it be something that sneaks up on him?

    At the risk of a tangent:

    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...it makes the game more complicated in that something like a complex mystery can't be solved by the cleric casting a 1st level spell.
    "Who's been murdering all the travelers passing through town?"
    Cleric detects evil. "Why it's Johnson, the Miller! and he would have gotten away with it too, if it wasn't for that party of meddling adventurers and their cleric."...


    -One way to get around that is to have the old amulet of undetectable alignment.

    Another way is to have more than one evil person around.

    A more subtle scenario: IRL, many killers aren't "evil," particularly when you get below 1st degree murder. I've never gotten around to it, but I've thought about making a killer be someone who is of non-evil neutral, of even of GOOD, alignment. Several ways this could happen:

    1) You could have someone who was very good but slipped, but this one killing wasn't quite enough to tip them over into the next alignment (YMMV), or maybe it just but them into non-evil neutral;

    2) If it was a while ago, they may have since redeemed themselves in other ways, even if they haven't owned up yet;

    3) It may have been less than cold-blooded murder. A 2nd degree murder might fit for chaotics, or it may have even been an accident, or maybe even self-defense, but the killer hasn't come forward for some reason.

    Anyway, relying on alignment to round up Miller Johnson would be a red herring.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 07, 2004
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    Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:53 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...I'd rather be upfront about alignment change and let the player know. IMC, and in 5e, it's more a guide than a mechanic...


    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Actually, if it's just a guide rather than a mechanic, why NOT have it be something that sneaks up on him?."


    You've made me reconsider it, but for the opposite reason. I was thinking about those instances when there is an interaction within 5e, especially those with intelligent weapons. It could be interesting when the player picks up a weapon that he assumes would be okay to touch and then take damage from it.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 02, 2015 7:45 pm  

    First, many points for citing my role mode, Jayne Cobb.

    As far as alignment, I agree that an evil alignment does not make a criminal. If you get the chance to read Outliers, Malcolm Gladwell would argue that in some places, high murder rates are more the result of a culture of honor than evil intent, and I would, in some areas agree with him. Perhaps the miller is evil... it doesn't mean he acts on it has the costs may outweigh the benefits to him... it just means that the moral imperative to avoid harming others is not a factor to him.

    I think the alignment change should be a surprise... perhaps a priest in the employ of their next patron checks the party's background, and he fails the test. Now the party has a harder time getting healing or temple services and the like. It might make a great mystery for the party to find out what has happened to (one of) them.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 17, 2004
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    Sat Oct 03, 2015 1:45 pm  

    Alignment has always been subjective and something of a thorn for many gamers. Initially; conceived as a roleplaying guidepost for certain classes; i.e. Paladin. As the Oerth evolved, national and religious conflicts further stretched a complex concept.

    Tricks and Troupes
    Amulets become tip-offs themselves for paranoid players, aha evil attack!
    Of course; the tried and true, scheming courtier and corrupt priest would be stopped cold by detect evil and know alignment.

    The core of the issue is not alignment per say, moral compasses but the reaction of the players, evil = attack, viewing evil as walking XP. IIRC; earliest books mention the importance of parley, hence role-playing encounters. Oftentimes; players automatically reach for their weapons whilst DM's script cheap betrayals - he's evil.

    Thus: a long time house rule; detect spells acknowledge those inherently evil creatures, like demons and vampires. Even so; they can possess uncertain motivation. After all; the lesser of two evils can provide excellent story arcs and often work at cross-purposes.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sat Oct 03, 2015 4:19 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...I'd rather be upfront about alignment change and let the player know. IMC, and in 5e, it's more a guide than a mechanic...


    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Actually, if it's just a guide rather than a mechanic, why NOT have it be something that sneaks up on him?."


    You've made me reconsider it, but for the opposite reason. I was thinking about those instances when there is an interaction within 5e, especially those with intelligent weapons. It could be interesting when the player picks up a weapon that he assumes would be okay to touch and then take damage from it.

    I think you have already done your due diligence as a DM:
    smillan wrote:
    I gave him a warning by basically saying "What's your alignment? Well, that was an evil act." I knew what his alignment was, but it was my way of putting him on notice.

    So, turn away, and let the drama unfold... Evil Grin
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Oct 06, 2015 9:30 am  

    As some have already mentioned, its enough to indicate to the player that the action taken and motivation behind it was evil. Because alignment is subjective and ultimately a matter of DM opinion and determination, I do think the DM has to be so blunt as to say "That was evil."

    If the player has his character continue on as if nothing happened, then it it time for considering changing the alignment as a matter of DM adjudication. I agree with others that the change should be kept from the player, until it becomes apparent by some event.

    In my campaign, and in those in which I play, characters dependent on the favor of the deities have learned to make greater use of a phylactery of faithfulness as described in 3.x ed. We've had a lot of use of it when drawing lines between close alignments, particularly Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral or Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil. We use it to make sure we are in sync with the DM's ideas of alignment before plunging ahead.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:13 pm  

    I agree with the numerous great replies to this topic already, but one thing I don't think anyone has commented on so far is the gradual change in alignment a PC could go through after several years adventuring and living. I think a gradual change in alignment is possible, especially after a PC has grown from a novice 1st level adventurer first leaving his village/home into a powerful and worldly PC capable of influencing events on a vast scale. A gradual change like this would not normally make a PC shift drastically from LG to CE, but I could see a shift from CG to NG or from neutrality to LE or NE based on several negative experiences over the course of 5-10 years. Thoughts?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:31 am  

    xo42 wrote:
    I agree with the numerous great replies to this topic already, but one thing I don't think anyone has commented on so far is the gradual change in alignment a PC could go through after several years adventuring and living. Thoughts?


    -It's never quite happened with PCs (although I do keep track of the subtle ebbs and flows), but I've always assumed that is the case of NPCs. Either way, I allow a free alignment change for every 5 levels, and a change for each age category.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 08, 2015 7:02 pm  

    Either way, I allow a free alignment change for every 5 levels, and a change for each age category.[/quote]


    That's an interesting way to allow changes to PCs alignment, I hadn't thought of doing it that way. Thanks!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Oct 11, 2015 10:09 am  

    Another thing thinking about this and discussing it (Thank you for all your replies!) is that we as DM's (I know I've been guilty of this) are sometimes too focused on the bad things that PC's do and how it might affect their alignment.
    The party's fighter started out as CG, but while staying within his alignment immediately showed some tendencies toward CN behavior (We're playing 5e and his background is Charlatan, so that would follow). The fighter's charlatan background came out in him using his con-artist abilities to pose as a knight and advance himself in the world. Over time this has evolved into him basically buying his own con. He has a very dedicated squire, has led the party in some fairly selfless heroic actions that saw him invited into a land-holding knightly household and offered the hand of the knight's illegitimate daughter and only child who wants her married to someone who will protect the family legacy. In many ways he was become legit and is now tending more toward NG. Still, with both of these I don't see the need for an alignment change, but it's at least on the radar now.
    Likewise, the CG ranger has tended more toward what I would call NG behavior, while still retaining a chaotic veneer (She was raised by fey, and the player is a great roleplayer, so she definitely acts outside of societies expectations).
    The CN warlock (Our attempted murderer) also has the charlatan background and has pretty much used that only to his own personal advantage. He has gone along with the party to perform some group acts which were selfless, but has always squeezed whatever bit of gain he could out of it. Overall though he has been very egocentric. Examples being: He held treasure back from their first patron, on their first job for him; when the party broke up a cult of Dagon worshipers in a remote fishing village they found themselves stranded in, in the aftermath he attempted to seduce/buy from her parents, the village girl who they rescued from being sacrificed, to be his concubine; when they worked out an alternate deal for payment of services from a wizard to dispel the magic that had been placed on a treasure map they recovered for their patron, he tried to get the patron's agent to release the funds to them that had originally been set aside to pay the wizard; when the agent refused to pay, he insulted and threatened him, raising the suspicions of their patron; back in their base town, when the patron questioned the party about that and insisted they also turn over a copy of the map the warlock had made, he insulted the patron and threatened to keep the original map. This resulted in the fighter basically being held hostage by the patron's muscle until he got the map back. And many more. Basically, while being a huge boon to the party as far as getting jobs done, he's also consistently caused no small amount of trouble for them. It's been hilarious, and like I said really challenges me to think on my feet as a DM.
    Which leads me to the party's NG Peloran cleric, who in-game is the aunt of the warlock. Her challenge of being a representative of Pelor (which she does very well) while at the same time trying to rein in the excesses of her nephew (She's unaware he made a pact with a demon -- which he was forced into to save his life -- thinking only that he's a natural sorceror, who also had a very hard life as a child) is interesting to watch as a DM. The attempted murder has been the biggest thing so far, but she didn't see it, even though she has her suspicions, and her nephew is insisting that the hireling who he kicked, fell on his own. The cleric stabilized the hireling but he's still unconscious, and they left him where he fell, to continue with the mission.
    I guess at some point I should probably take this over to the campaign journal's forum, if anyone is interested.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 12, 2015 8:24 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Another thing thinking about this and discussing it (Thank you for all your replies!) is that we as DM's (I know I've been guilty of this) are sometimes too focused on the bad things that PC's do and how it might affect their alignment...


    -Actually, I keep a running count on graph paper for each PC.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 12, 2015 10:43 am  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    Another thing thinking about this and discussing it (Thank you for all your replies!) is that we as DM's (I know I've been guilty of this) are sometimes too focused on the bad things that PC's do and how it might affect their alignment...


    -Actually, I keep a running count on graph paper for each PC.


    That's a good idea. One of my players got me a cool campaign journal/organizer, which I have sadly underused so far.
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