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    Canonfire :: View topic - NorkerHawk
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    NorkerHawk
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:38 pm  
    NorkerHawk

    Summary of differences from TSR canon, with the World of Greyhawk Boxed Set as the baseline:

    Wee Jas is the chief deity of The Pale. ( Not contradictory of the box, of course, but differs from Fate of Istus and the Gord novels. Based on Dragon magazine hints.)

    Kord is the chief deity of Almor. (Also not contradictory of the boxed set. Based on Dragon magazine hints)

    No Circle of Eight as presented in the City of Greyhawk boxed set. Most of these characters still exist, but they do not any longer form an adventuring party or unified power bloc. Rary? Naw, that guy never ever made it past Medium rank.

    Lord Robilar never betrayed his friends (easy enough without Rary the Traitor).

    Greyhawk Castle was in large measure looted out. It is now an amusement park, run by "ye old school" cultists of Zagyg. It can be deadly if you get off the Dungeons and Dragons cart ride. And the rail carts can also sometimes deposit you in other worlds. Sign the waiver before you ride, kids.
    (I might be joking about this. Or am I?)


    Rhennee descend from ancient astronauts? It could be true. Maybe.

    Slavery and slave selling remains legal in GH city, but not slave taking. Slaves are all imported. This doesn't really contradict early canon stuff, but it does clash with the City of Greyhawk boxed set.
    The arena is mainly place for free men to fight, though. City laws prevent masters from simply killing slaves, and that includes forcing the poor bastards to fight monsters and trained killers for the amusement of the mob.

    Amazons of Hardby stand out more, because women are a lot less often seen as warriors in most cultures.


    Drow might be just a legend. (one possibility is that they are based on nocturnal sightings of soot smeared Valley Elves snooping around the campsites of travelers in the Sulhauts.)


    ------



    What changes do you guys make?
    GreySage

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    Tue Nov 17, 2015 2:21 am  

    First, this thread should probably have been put in the Greyhawk - Heresy! forum, but I'll let the Admins make that decision.

    Now, I appreciate some of your changes, but dislike others. Of course, I expect the same in return. Wink

    My own WoG was altered largely by the actions of my original group of players. Specifically,

    Turrosh Maks' forces didn't have such a great success against the Principality of Ulek, largely due to the stubborn resistance of Sir Xaris, his forces at Sanctigaard, and the people of Eastboro. (See here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1013)

    The Scarlet Brotherhood also had much less success, militarily, against the Hold of the Sea Princes because of the efforts of a ranger named Aaron House who worshipped Poseidon and wielded Wave. He had established a small mariner nation on the larger of the Olman Islands and managed to cut the SB supply line across the sea.

    I never liked the idea of Lolth trying to overtly take over the nation of Sterrich, so that black bubble over Istivin thing never happened.

    I never applied the changes from Fate of Istus. I loved the city maps and have used several of them. Even the individual adventures within those cities were good. But, the entire premise of a Flanaess-wide plague that changes all monks and assassins to fighters, thieves, or clerics, was idiotic, in my opinion.

    SirXaris
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    Tue Nov 17, 2015 5:12 am  

    SirXaris wrote:
    First, this thread should probably have been put in the Greyhawk - Heresy! forum, but I'll let the Admins make that decision.

    Now, I appreciate some of your changes, but dislike others. Of course, I expect the same in return. Wink

    My own WoG was altered largely by the actions of my original group of players. Specifically,

    Turrosh Maks' forces didn't have such a great success against the Principality of Ulek, largely due to the stubborn resistance of Sir Xaris, his forces at Sanctigaard, and the people of Eastboro. (See here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1013)



    The Scarlet Brotherhood also had much less success, militarily, against the Hold of the Sea Princes because of the efforts of a ranger named Aaron House who worshipped Poseidon and wielded Wave. He had established a small mariner nation on the larger of the Olman Islands and managed to cut the SB supply line across the sea.

    I never liked the idea of Lolth trying to overtly take over the nation of Sterrich, so that black bubble over Istivin thing never happened.

    I never applied the changes from Fate of Istus. I loved the city maps and have used several of them. Even the individual adventures within those cities were good. But, the entire premise of a Flanaess-wide plague that changes all monks and assassins to fighters, thieves, or clerics, was idiotic, in my opinion.

    SirXaris



    Norkersy!

    Like you, I ignore the magical plague of edition change presented in Fate of Istus. It never appealed to me.
    I can see why the designers thought a big event would be useful to DMs in managing a transition from 1st to 2nd in their home campaigns, but I think they may have overestimated the scope of the edition changes and the effect I actual play. Not having played 1st and then switched mid game to 2nd, I am only guessing about this matter.

    The black bubble over Istivin is a tournament module thing, I think. It limits travel and creates a time sensitive situation. Good for a mod run at a convention, maybe not well suited to a given home campaign.
    Like you, I would probably ignore it.
    Although I might use the black bubble idea someplace else, with a different evil power.

    Aaron House sounds cool. Ditto Sir Xaris. I like that PCs changed the course of history.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 17, 2015 8:42 pm  
    Re: NorkerHawk

    CombatMedic wrote:
    What changes do you guys make?


    A lot of these have been inspired or just plain stolen from other sources.

    576-577 (my ongoing campaign)
    -- Turrosh Mak, aka Theg Narlot is not a member of the Slavelords, but instead an orc chieftain known as the Blood King, who is beginning to unify the Pomarj's various humanoid tribes.

    -- Brother Kerin of the Slavelords is Sister Kerin and is co-commander of the Highport Slavelord operations there.

    -- (Possible) Nol Daer was never overrun by an orcish incursion in 526, but is instead a competitor Wild Coast state to Elredd and Badwall, still ruled by the now at-least-a-century old wizardess, Demara the Enchantress.

    -- Mother Hydra is the name among human cultists for Olhydra aka Blipdoolpoolp in her aspect as consort to the demon-prince Dagon.

    -- Wee Jas and Nerull are married and co-rule the Gray Wastes (Hades), although from separate realms. Wee Jas agreed to marry Nerull just after the Twin Cataclysms as part of an agreement to free the souls of those inhabitants of the Suloise Empire who were killed in the Rain of Colorless Fire. She loathes him and Norebo is still her off-and-on lover. For this reason Nerull despises his brother-in-law more than any other god.

    -- Pelor and Nerull are brothers, and in ages past they led the coalition of gods that defeated and imprisoned Tharizdun.

    -- Changed the map and inhabitants of the "haunted" mansion in U1 and had it taken over by a necromantress who was working off of the research of the last known inhabitant, a wizard known as Zenobos (Zenopus from the sample dungeon aka the Tower of Zenopus, in the back of the Holmes Basic rulebook).

    --Evard has been dead for over 50 years, having been killed in a duel with another wizard in the town of Waverock on the Salinmoor coast, though his ghost, when summoned by an unwitting necromancer comes back and takes over the body of his summoner.

    -- The Black Pearls from the Savage Tide AP are the "offspring" resulting from the "ritual marriage" of a kuo-toa, acting as the avatar of Dagon, with a drugged sacrificial victim, acting as the avatar of Mother Hydra aka Olhydra aka Blipdoolpoolp.
    GreySage

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    Wed Nov 18, 2015 1:30 am  
    Re: NorkerHawk

    Those are some interesting changes, smillan. I especially appreciate this take on things. Smile
    smillan_31 wrote:
    -- The Black Pearls from the Savage Tide AP are the "offspring" resulting from the "ritual marriage" of a kuo-toa, acting as the avatar of Dagon, with a drugged sacrificial victim, acting as the avatar of Mother Hydra aka Olhydra aka Blipdoolpoolp.


    SirXaris
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    Wed Nov 18, 2015 10:05 am  
    Re: NorkerHawk

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...My own WoG was altered largely by the actions of my original group of players...


    -Technically, those are changes in canon, but I think that modifications to the timeline based on individual's actions are "different" for some reason. It's an "organic" change, or something like that...

    CombatMedic wrote:
    ...Wee Jas is the chief deity of The Pale. ( Not contradictory of the box, of course, but differs from Fate of Istus and the Gord novels. Based on Dragon magazine hints.)...


    -This is the only complete change from canon. The others could be explained as changes in the timeline.

    In some ways, I'm not sure that Wee Jas as patron of the Pale actually changes the big picture that much, except that Wee Jas gets a national power base that isn't the Scarlet Brotherhood, and Pholtus loses his. And the Jasadine are usually a lot more easy-come-easy go when it comes to worshippers in canon.

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...The Scarlet Brotherhood also had much less success, militarily, against the Hold of the Sea Princes because of the efforts of a ranger named Aaron House who worshipped Poseidon and wielded Wave...


    -Poseidon? Ok, that's a change from canon.

    SirXaris wrote:
    ...I never applied the changes from Fate of Istus. I loved the city maps and have used several of them. Even the individual adventures within those cities were good. But, the entire premise of a Flanaess-wide plague that changes all monks and assassins to fighters, thieves, or clerics, was idiotic, in my opinion...


    -As it just so happens, I'm running "Sage's Tower" in Rookroost right now. Yes, there's a plague. Yes, it's difficult to cure (even magically resistant). It will kill some people. But if you don't find the treatment, every thief in the Flaneass does not lose 1 point of dexterity or become a hermaphrodite or whatever. Lame.

    smillan_31 wrote:
    ...Wee Jas and Nerull are married and co-rule the Gray Wastes (Hades), although from separate realms. Wee Jas agreed to marry Nerull just after the Twin Cataclysms as part of an agreement to free the souls of those inhabitants of the Suloise Empire who were killed in the Rain of Colorless Fire. She loathes him and Norebo is still her off-and-on lover. For this reason Nerull despises his brother-in-law more than any other god...


    -Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! A-a-a-a-a-Aaarghhhhhh! [This may be me, hearing this theory. Or maybe me, while passing a kidney stone. Hard to tell which...]

    The first time I heard the Wee Jas and Nerull were married thing was with a guy who was new to a Forgotten Realms campaign I was playing in (I forget how it came up). Since then, I have seen it somewhere else. This is the third.

    Ok. I get it. It's a take-off of the Hades-Demeter-Persephone thing. But if the only way Wee Jas could free the souls of the dead from the Rain of Colorless Fire was to marry Nerull, I suspect she'd just turn to the dead and say "Look's like you guys are screwed. Sucks to be you. Try to make the best of it." I guess you could argue that that she did it out of her sense of duty to the Suel people, but damn. That's is one sense of duty. I hope the freed souls appreciate it. Wink

    smillan_31 wrote:


    ...For this reason Nerull despises his brother-in-law more than any other god...


    -Are you saying that Wee Jas and Norebo are brother and sister? I know there's precedent in Greek and Japanese mythology, but, that's awkward...Laughing
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 18, 2015 11:47 am  

    I boost Wee Jas's profile in part because I like having a prominent non-evil deity of death.
    I go with her alignment as listed in the boxed set. She is lawful neutral. No evil tendencies.
    GreySage

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    Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:02 pm  

    I see Celestian as a god of death, too. As god of far journeys and the Astral Plane, he acts as a psychopomp, watching over souls as they cross over to the Outer Planes.

    Sehanine has a similar role among elves.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:25 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    I see Celestian as a god of death, too. As god of far journeys and the Astral Plane, he acts as a psychopomp, watching over souls as they cross over to the Outer Planes.

    Sehanine has a similar role among elves.


    I like that.

    My Wee Jas includes a psychopomp aspect, at least in the Pale. She can send her crescent or her star to guide souls to the Lower or the Upper Planes.Her father (Lendor) fashioned these two relics and and gifted to her when she moved from Nirvana to Acheron.
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    Wed Nov 18, 2015 7:43 pm  

    Alignment


    I am strongly considering adopting the AD&D 1E rule that prohibits clerics from being True Neutral.

    That may be a Druid only thing.

    I will have to look it up.I don't recall if there is an exception for clerics of TN gods.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 20, 2015 9:47 am  

    CombatMedic wrote:
    Alignment


    I am strongly considering adopting the AD&D 1E rule that prohibits clerics from being True Neutral.

    That may be a Druid only thing.

    I will have to look it up.I don't recall if there is an exception for clerics of TN gods.


    I'm pretty certain there was an exception for N clerics of N deities in AD&D1, but FWIW, I ignored it the whole prohibition anyway, so...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 21, 2015 3:05 pm  
    Re: NorkerHawk

    jamesdglick wrote:
    -Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! Aaarghhhhhh! A-a-a-a-a-Aaarghhhhhh! [This may be me, hearing this theory. Or maybe me, while passing a kidney stone. Hard to tell which...]

    The first time I heard the Wee Jas and Nerull were married thing was with a guy who was new to a Forgotten Realms campaign I was playing in (I forget how it came up). Since then, I have seen it somewhere else. This is the third.

    Ok. I get it. It's a take-off of the Hades-Demeter-Persephone thing. But if the only way Wee Jas could free the souls of the dead from the Rain of Colorless Fire was to marry Nerull, I suspect she'd just turn to the dead and say "Look's like you guys are screwed. Sucks to be you. Try to make the best of it." I guess you could argue that that she did it out of her sense of duty to the Suel people, but damn. That's is one sense of duty. I hope the freed souls appreciate it. Wink

    smillan_31 wrote:


    ...For this reason Nerull despises his brother-in-law more than any other god...


    -Are you saying that Wee Jas and Norebo are brother and sister? I know there's precedent in Greek and Japanese mythology, but, that's awkward...Laughing


    Pretty sure Wee Jas and Norebo being siblings is official, or at least had the same father, Lendore. I think most interpretations of Lendore have him just creating his children in the Suel pantheon out of an act of will, although he could as easily have got busy with some goddesses, titanesses or whatever from other pantheons.

    I'm not surprised you've seen the Nerull-Wee Jas marriage before. There was a lot of interpretation of the 4e goddess of death, the Raven Queen as being Wee Jas although the official word was she was an ascended mortal who had married Nerull. I just added the Persephone myth and some other things to come up with the story. I've got it written down somewhere.
    GreySage

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    Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:21 pm  
    Re: NorkerHawk

    smillan_31 wrote:
    Pretty sure Wee Jas and Norebo being siblings is official, or at least had the same father, Lendore. I think most interpretations of Lendore have him just creating his children in the Suel pantheon out of an act of will, although he could as easily have got busy with some goddesses, titanesses or whatever from other pantheons.


    Dragon #86 called Lendor the "father-mother of the gods and goddesses of the Suel pantheon," which suggests he created them on his own, without the need for goddesses. Or rather, Lendor himself is both god and goddess; one of his favored forms is a female elf. We might as well ask if Lendor got busy with male gods or titans (and the answer would likely still be no, at least not for the sake of procreation).

    The Scarlet Brotherhood says "Lendor is the father and mother of all the Suel powers."

    Dragon #350 says that Lendor is father to Wee Jas. Not every member of the pantheon is a first generation descendant from Lendor—Kord is the son of Phaulkon and Syrul—but Wee Jas is, and although I don't know if there's any official statement to this effect, Norebo was as well in Len Lakofka's theogony.

    Lakofka's theogony, posted on the Greytalk list waaay back in the day, looked like this:

    Lendor begat Phaulkon, Syrul, Osprem, Xerbo, Wee Jas, and Norebo directly.
    Phaulkon and Syrul begat Kord.
    Wee Jas and Norebo begat Lydia and Llerg.
    Osprem and Xerbo begat Akwamon.
    Norebo and Syrul begat Phyton and Bralm.
    Llerg and Bralm begat Pyremius and Beltar.
    Kord and Osprem begat Jascar and Fortubo.


    Last edited by rasgon on Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:26 pm  

    The Greywiki states that they are siblings.

    I don't see what is so awkward about it. Egyptian mythology has this, too.

    YMMV
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    Sat Dec 19, 2015 2:53 pm  

    Does Xerbo take exception to Kord mating with Osprem?

    There could be a story in that.
    GreySage

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    Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:17 pm  

    There are all sorts of emotional issues between Xerbo and Osprem, I think. Dragon #90 says "Osprem is only on fair terms with Xerbo." The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer calls Osprem Xerbo's "estranged wife."

    It's probably safe to say that their love is as tempestuous and ever-changing as the sea itself.

    Note that while they were created by Lendor directly, Xerbo and Osprem are both part of the "second generation," created at around the same time as the birth of Kord, Lydia, Llerg, Phyton, and Bralm.
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    Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:45 pm  

    Telenovelas of the Suel Imperium

    With 100% more passionate kissing and angry face- smacking.
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