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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:28 pm  
    Sources

    Which sources do you consider core, essential, or most useful to your conception of GH?
    What stuff do you not use at all, or borrow from in part?

    For me the core is the WoG boxed set, with secondary status for GH Adventures and the City of Greyhawk boxed set.
    Darlene map, FTW.

    (I have considered a FolioHawk set up without the gods , but I decided I like the GH gods too much for that).
    I use the vast majority of material in these sources with little of no modification.

    I essentially ignore metaplot and timeline advances. PreWars for me.

    I do like the fading lands and the specialty priests from FtA

    I ignore Fate of Istus, although I have considered using some of the city maps.
    Slavers and The Scarlet Brotherhood contain some material I use and a number of things I don't use.

    Modules and magazines? It varies.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 19, 2015 10:06 am  

    I actually find most published material quite useful, so my list if more a "by exception" thing:

    Fate of Istus: I discount the whole "Avatar Trilogy-lite" campaign, but incorporate much of the book into any campaign. There is also no reason that the Red Death cannot be a real illness, I just drop the mystical/calss-based aspect of it.

    Child's Play: Could be the basis of the Flanaess version of Grand Fenwick...

    Gargoyles: Useless.

    Castle Geyhawk: I actually laughed myself silly reading it, but incorporating into my version of the Flanaess (low fantasy) is difficult to accomplish.

    The beauty of the published works was that they largely avoided contradictions, not so much because they are carefully organized, but because there are relatively few... which is what makes Greyhawk have the feel of an open world.

    Beyond official Greyhawk material, I have been slowly incorporating a lot of concepts from Iron Crown Enterprise's MERP setting; this setting takes place about 1500 years before the Lord of the Rings and they really sketched out each area in great (sometimes excessive) detail to the point of you know how the peasant cottages in Eriador differ from those in Rohan. I consider several regions of the Flanaess to be relatively good proxies for regions in Middle Earth, and so I shamelessly adapt.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:30 pm  

    My tabletop aides are WoG and FtA.

    My canon materials are almost all 1e modules and everything by Gygax, Kuntz, Lakofka, Mentzer, Sargent, Pryor, Weining, Boyd, Pramas, Bloch, Talanian, and Broadhurst, including any applicable works post-TSR/TLG.

    Roger Moore's old online articles and listserve posts are excellent and I would have loved to see his original 200+ page manuscript that got downgraded to TAB. Unfortunately, the directive from WotC was to appease the old guard and too much of TAB was a timeline reversal that threw Sargent's baby out with the bathwater. The CoG update is good, though.

    David Cook's early mods are great, but I dislike the timeline alterations in GDQ1-7, Vecna Lives! was a cluster****, and the Wars history, while good, suffered from poor research.

    Greyhawk Adventures has the excellent geography section and a few decent NPC's, but the rest of it is a waste, probably because the book had eight authors. The gods are treated better in WoG and FtA. The monsters are expanded in MC5. The spells should all be one level lower and many are rather idiosyncratic. Both the spells and magic items were compiled in later volumes.

    Skips Williams (A0, Rod of Seven Parts, Axe Dwarvish Lords) is good. I like Monte Cook (Dead Gods, Paladin in Hell, S6 Labyrinth of Madness, Heroes Tale), but hate his treatment of the EGG in RttToEE. Wolfgang Baur (Kingdom of Ghouls, Blackmoor adventures, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) has creativity in spades, but needs polishing. Bruce Cordell wrote fantastic generic adventures, but his GH research gets an F minus. Erik Mona is a great scholar, but I disagree with many of his interpretations and retcons. I ignore Reynolds, Slade, and Andy Miller.

    My favorite overlooked/underrated products are:
    *WGR1 - annoying maps & not Gygax, but it's the biggest, complete dungeon ever published by TSR and it's awesome.
    *LG Bandit Kingdoms Summary - also awesome. Buy it and maybe Mr. Brown will write another volume.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:35 am  

    My primary sources start with the WoG and FtA boxed sets as listed by others, but I also pull heavily from the City of Greyhawk boxed (one of my all time favorites). I loved everything Sargent did so I pull heavily from his books as well. Like most I pretty much ignore Fate of Istus. The Adventure Begins is a great book of course although it adds on to a lot of previous work by others.
    GreySage

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    Thu Dec 24, 2015 8:30 am  

    I constantly use the following boxed sets: the original World of Greyhawk, From the Ashes, and The City of Greyhawk.

    I also make frequent use of The Living Greyhawk Gazeteer, The Adventure Begins, and occasionally Greyhawk: Player's Guide. The hardback book Greyhawk Adventures gets its due from time to time.

    I also use just about every source guide that I own depending upon the nature of my campaign. Those that get the most use include The Marklands, Iuz the Evil, and Bastion of Faith. I also crack out The Slavers and The Scarlet Brotherhood every so often.

    -Lanthorn
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Dec 26, 2015 9:34 pm  

    I pretty much ignore Rary the Traitor; there are some interesting nuggets, but it feels really incomplete to me.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Dec 27, 2015 9:52 am  

    tarelton wrote:
    I pretty much ignore Rary the Traitor; there are some interesting nuggets, but it feels really incomplete to me.


    I actually like Rary the Traitor, although mostly for the information on the Bright Desert and the numerous adventure hooks it provides both in the desert and in the Abbor Alz. I know many didn't like the use of Robilar as Rary's evil partner, but even if you wanted to totally ignore Rary and Robilar as they are presented, I still think the source book opens up a ton of new opportunities for play in Greyhawk.
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    Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:42 pm  

    Why is The Fate of Istus univerassally rejected as canon? Also why is Vally of the Mage rejected as canon?
    I heard this from many folks on canonfire. I just want to know the reasoning, specifically.
    GreySage

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    Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:56 pm  

    Not sure why Fate of Istus is 'universally rejected' but I tend only to use it for the maps of the various cities.

    -Lanthorn
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:45 pm  

    tulkas wrote:
    Why is The Fate of Istus univerassally rejected as canon? Also why is Vally of the Mage rejected as canon?
    I heard this from many folks on canonfire. I just want to know the reasoning, specifically.



    I think Fate of Istus is rejected by many because the storyline doesn't fit in with the themes/overall feel of previous canon and more importantly because the entire module seems to have been written for the primary purpose of changing editions from 1st to 2nd. To me it felt forced and I just never liked it at all. As far as Vale of the Mage, I've never heard anyone reject it in the same manner. I'd be interested to hear why they do if that's the case.
    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:17 am  

    xo42's reasoning is in line with my own.

    Additionally, or rather, more specifically, I didn't like the idea of introducing a Flanaess-wide plague into my campaign (it might be fun now, but I was only in high school at the time) and I certainly disliked them getting rid of the assassin and monk PC classes.

    I wasn't all that impressed with valley of the Mage, but I haven't heard anyone reject it for specific reasons, either. Mostly, I think it wasn't as sinister as I had hoped and the inclusion of a drow was just too much cliché when everyone was getting very tired of Drizzt Dourden. Confused

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    GreySage

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    Mon Jan 04, 2016 12:57 pm  

    There are lots of details about the Vale of the Mage as described in the accessory of that name that don't sit right with me.

    1. I see what Jean Rabe was trying to do when she made the Vale subtropical; it gives it a 'lost world' feel and makes the valley more exotic and unnatural. But it feels wrong and out of place. I know that's the point, but I'd prefer a temperate valley appropriate for its latitude to a subtropical jungle on the same latitude as the Gran March. One Rigodruok is enough. The Valley of the Mage can be magical in other ways; the out-of-place subtropical rain forest just doesn't fit with how I had previously imagined the valley to look.

    2. Banana trees.

    3. Some avoidable mistakes: the ruler of the Great Kingdom is the Overking, not the Great King. The mage's name is Jaran, not Jason. Vale of the Mage propagates a typo from the World of Greyhawk boxed set: Bissel should be the Littlemark, not the "Lirtlemark." (The Folio had it as Littlemark, as does the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer)

    4. I prefer Roger E. Moore's correction to the text: "WG12 Vale of the Mage notes that the valley elves currently worship Ehlonna, who is a local human/elven deity of the Flanaess. I would say that this is not possible, and would discard that reference (which is not supported elsewhere, as far as I can tell). I would have it that the valley elves had no clerics at all now; no good deities will have them, and evil deities would only destroy them. The valley elves have come to reject all deities, believing only in themselves."

    5. The gnomes of the valley would probably be more likely to worship their god Baravar Cloakshadow than Ehlonna. If they were as eager to follow the Mage of the Vale as the elves were, it may be that they also feel rejected by the gods for reasons of their own.

    6. The valley elves are supposed to have lived in the Vale for 15,000 years, according to Vale of the Mage. Since this is much, much longer than any other canonical date for the elves in the Flanaess, some have argued that their arrival should be much more recent. The modern olven calendar only goes back 5,000-odd years. On the other hand, it's possible that elves had a long history on Oerth before their calendar began. I think I'd prefer to make it shorter, though, if only to avoid having to decide how the elves interacted with the Doomgrinder culture 8,000 years ago.

    7. The tree people are an odd addition—essentially a race of Tarzans descended from escaped slaves and criminals and Rhennee—and the decision to make them followers of Lirr seems very random. If I were going to put humans in the Valley of the Mage, I think I'd make them completely different, probably isolated people of Flan descent, cousins of the people of Geoff.

    8. The jaleeda is a weird monster, but I'm open to the idea that Jaran Krimeah might also be the original creator of the owlbear.

    9. Elephants!?

    One criticism I've heard is that Gary Gygax himself had a very different idea of who the Mage of the Vale should be. Basiliv the Demiurge, from the Gord the Rogue books, was a very different character than Jaran (or "Jason," as Vale of the Mage calls him) Krimeah. Basiliv is true neutral in alignment, concerned with balance above all, and an ancient, mythic figure as old as the world itself. Jaran Krimeah is 'just' a villain, a would-be usurper from the Great Kingdom, not particularly old or mythic, and it's stranger for the neutral valley elves to revere a comparatively short-lived human mage, especially an evil one, than it would be for them to revere a neutral wizard who's been master of the vale since before they arrived. It's the difference between Gandalf having elven servants and Grima Wormtongue having them. On the other hand, that's properly a criticism of Greyhawk Adventures, where Jaran Krimeah was first detailed. Jean Rabe was just stuck with what she had inherited. And I happen to like Jaran Krimeah, personally. I like the idea (which Vale of the Mage supports) that he's ruthless, but genuinely cares about his people and has won their loyalty. I also like the idea that he was a member of the Rax dynasty almost 150 years ago, some time before CY 450 as Carl Sargent claimed, though others believe he'd be better placed as a relatively recent refugee from the House of Naelax, since he's only supposed to have lived in the Valley of the Mage for decades, not a century. He spent a long time wandering before arriving in the Vale, however. Vale of the Mage says "he appears to be about 40, but his actual age is more than double that." If Jaran Krimeah is only in his 80s, he's too young to have been a noble in the House of Rax. I'd prefer to think that he's considerably older.

    The drow, Tysiln San, was also from Greyhawk Adventures, and it's not really a fair criticism of Vale of the Mage that she was included in it. Technically, if the editors had allowed it, Jean Rabe could have killed her off or marginalized her, but it was reasonable to expect her to work with what had been established before. I like the idea (originally Roger E. Moore's) that the valley elves were neutral in the war between the light elves and the drow, and I'm intrigued by the reported connection (in Living Greyhawk Journal #0) between Tysiln San and Drawmij. Did they study magic under the same master?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:24 pm  

    Cloud forest might work.

    Seems temperate here:
    www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Valley_of_the_Mage

    I like that.

    I also dig the arboreal humans. Lirr makes sense to me.

    Heffalumps can be used without a subtropical climate. There are mastodons or mammoths in the Crystalmists, as I recall.

    Swap the bananas for something else.

    I heart Ehlonna bigtime, and I like her a a patroness of the gnomes and elves. Given their typical alignment, I would guess the elves have very few clerics. That seems fine to me.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:52 am  

    Oh, I'm not saying that Vale of the Mage isn't fixable. I'm just naming my problems with it.

    Quote:
    I heart Ehlonna bigtime, and I like her a a patroness of the gnomes and elves. Given their typical alignment, I would guess the elves have very few clerics. That seems fine to me.


    My issue here is that these aren't standard elves, they're valley elves (and valley gnomes), known for their chaotic neutral alignment, xenophobia, and fanatical devotion to a mysterious (and, in the WG12 continuity, evil) wizard lord. The premise that valley elves are considered anathema by all other elven races (including drow, according to the MMII, but I think the idea that they've accepted a drow exile as their leader is an interesting way of showcasing just how divorced from other surface elven cultures they are) is a fundamental part of their characterization. As such, I think Roger E. Moore's take on them—rejected by the gods, desperate for someone, anyone, greater than themselves to follow—is more appropriate than Jean Rabe's comparatively nicey-nice take. Ehlonna is a goddess specifically attuned to good sylvan creatures; she's a very appropriate deity for elves and gnomes to worship, but maybe not so much for the slightly sinister followers of the Black One, the Mage of the Vale. It gives them too much in common with other elves and takes away from their characterization.

    I also prefer for my Greyhawk to be predominantly polytheistic, so I prefer complete pantheons to "this culture worships this deity."

    Not every part of WG12 needs to be discarded, but I would have preferred a wildly different interpretation on the Valley of the Mage. Even the parts that are acceptable aren't particularly compelling.

    For what it's worth, the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer's take on the Valley of the Mage is very different from WG12 in some ways, and manages to be a lot more compelling in my opinion. The LGG does mention that the valley elves were rejected by the gods of their race, and darkly hints that the earliest of their kind were, long before the coming of the Black One, "bound in servitude to a powerful master, in exchange for knowledge from beyond the known planes," which intrigues the hell out of me, and seems much more distinctive than another group of Ehlonna worshiping demihumans.
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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:41 am  

    I do prefer polytheism as the rule.
    Thus the gnomes would worship Ehlonna, but not as their only deity.
    Ditto the Tree People's worship of Lirr.

    I also prefer the Mage to be neutral instead of evil. The region gets a N symbol on the WoG map that shows alignment, doesn't it?

    So, like you, I would make changes to the Jean Rabe presentation. But I do like her work in the module.

    RE The Valley Elves:

    I am undecided about these guys.

    One concept I have kicked around is that the Drow do not exist in my GH.
    Valley Elves smeared with soot, stalking travelers in the Sulhauts and other mountains, spawned the stories of ' dark elves.'

    This would require changing The First Protector.

    The Valley Elves might then replace the Drow as an outcast elf race in my campaign. Outcast, but not evil.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 10:44 am  

    CombatMedic wrote:
    I also prefer the Mage to be neutral instead of evil. The region gets a N symbol on the WoG map that shows alignment, doesn't it?


    Well, the valley elves and other citizens of the Vale are neutral, and Jaran Krimeah seems to be some variety of "evil with neutral tendencies."

    This is what Jean Rabe said in WG12:

    Jean Rabe wrote:
    When he initially entered the valley he was corrupt and wicked, twisted by his failure to rule the Great Kingdom. However, after years of ruling the land he named the Valley of the Mage, he has mellowed and has grown to care for those who live under his jurisdiction. He still places himself first in all matters and would sacrifice those around him to save himself, but he no longer thinks solely of his own well being. Now the Black One is evil only when it suits him, and those moods usually arise when he deals with mysterious outsiders or suspected agents of the Great Kingdom, or when he is in pursuit of a new magical item.


    It seems a bit like some interpretations of Doctor Doom's relationship with Latveria. Yeah, he's a bad guy, but he genuinely tries to do right by his people. And now that I say that, the Black One as Doctor Doom feels right in a lot of different ways.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:52 pm  

    I should dig my copy out of the bedroom gaming crate.

    But, yeah, Doctor Doom sounds fun!

    RE Ehlonna and the Valley Elves

    Maybe she is their primary deity from a long way back, but in recent times most of them only pay her lip service. Her ethos and morality exercises only a minor influence on most Valley Elves, and she rarely grants powers to priestesses or priests.

    Some sites in the Valley may show evidence of a time when her cult was much stronger. Temples and groves overgrown and abandoned, or visited only rarely. The Elves were a more benevolent folk in those long lost times.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 3:01 pm  

    Fenmarel, a bit of an outcast himself among the Seldarine, and one who assists elves in wild areas, is perhaps a better choice as a patron Power.

    -Lanthorn
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 4:13 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Fenmarel, a bit of an outcast himself among the Seldarine, and one who assists elves in wild areas, is perhaps a better choice as a patron Power.

    -Lanthorn


    Yeah, I've tried to make that case, since he's the god of elven outcasts specifically, and his history with the drow—he hates the drow, but has an embarrassing history in which he was seduced by Lolth, but then he spurned her and she's sworn vengeance—fits with the valley elves' situation (although that bit of mythology was stolen from the myth of the snow elf deity Tarsellis Meunniduin; I can actually see them as different aspects of the same god).

    On the other hand, Fenmarel is still a member of the Seldarine, and not actually anathema to high elves like valley elves are. Demihuman Deities said "only Fenmarel is somewhat estranged from the Coronal of Arvandor, and his differences with Corellon are not all that great." He's a voluntary exile, living in the margins as penance for his crime, and he'd actually be welcome back any time he liked. If the valley elves worship a member of the elven pantheon, even an estranged one, it shows they share something of their cousins' world view. They might not agree on everything, but at least they share a common premise. I think it's more effective if they reject that—and are in turn rejected by them—entirely. As Gary Gygax said when he mentioned in Oerth Journal #12 that he had planned to create an entirely separate Baklunish pantheon, "The reason I wished to include another pantheon is, of course, obvious, for lacking even the common ground of a shared pantheon, the friction would be greater between these peoples and the east."

    That's why I prefer the valley elves to be scorned by all the elven gods, even Ehlonna and Fenmarel. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer implies they sold themselves to something like Yog-Sothoth aeons ago. Something that even the drow rejected as foolhardy, like Y'chak from Lords of Madness. As the LGG said, "For this the drow despise them, saying that they were made slaves to a lie, while the drow believe that lies should be used only to enslave others." Perhaps that's supposed to mean the Elder Elemental God, if you follow the theory that it's a false guise created by Tharizdun, or a charade created by Zuggtmoy.

    That also helps distinguish them from the snow elves, who are also rejected by both the surface elves and the drow, but at least they're still elves, not blasphemers that lost their souls to something alien.

    Fenmarel Mestarine's faithful are largely sylvan elves and grugach, who may feel marginalized in the realms of the high and gray elves but are still, unlike the valley elves, accepted as elves by their people.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:15 pm  

    Lanthorn wrote:
    Fenmarel, a bit of an outcast himself among the Seldarine, and one who assists elves in wild areas, is perhaps a better choice as a patron Power.

    -Lanthorn

    He may be a better match, if:


    1 You use the Seldarine.

    1.5 He exists in your GH version of the Seldarine. He appears first, I believe in Monster Mythology. I have recently nabbed a copy. Good book. Generic, but because of that easy to use with GH.


    2 You want a god that matches typical Valley Elf alignment. CN and CN, yes?

    I am ambivalent about the Seldarine. And that LGG quotation Rasgon offered has me thinking that maybe a less pious culture makes sense for the Valley Elves. So their patroness not matching their common alignment would make sense, suggesting as it does a weaker divine connection.
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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:24 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Lanthorn wrote:
    Fenmarel, a bit of an outcast himself among the Seldarine, and one who assists elves in wild areas, is perhaps a better choice as a patron Power.

    -Lanthorn


    Yeah, I've tried to make that case, since he's the god of elven outcasts specifically, and his history with the drow—he hates the drow, but has an embarrassing history in which he was seduced by Lolth, but then he spurned her and she's sworn vengeance—fits with the valley elves' situation (although that bit of mythology was stolen from the myth of the snow elf deity Tarsellis Meunniduin; I can actually see them as different aspects of the same god).

    On the other hand, Fenmarel is still a member of the Seldarine, and not actually anathema to high elves like valley elves are. Demihuman Deities said "only Fenmarel is somewhat estranged from the Coronal of Arvandor, and his differences with Corellon are not all that great." He's a voluntary exile, living in the margins as penance for his crime, and he'd actually be welcome back any time he liked. If the valley elves worship a member of the elven pantheon, even an estranged one, it shows they share something of their cousins' world view. They might not agree on everything, but at least they share a common premise. I think it's more effective if they reject that—and are in turn rejected by them—entirely. As Gary Gygax said when he mentioned in Oerth Journal #12 that he had planned to create an entirely separate Baklunish pantheon, "The reason I wished to include another pantheon is, of course, obvious, for lacking even the common ground of a shared pantheon, the friction would be greater between these peoples and the east."

    That's why I prefer the valley elves to be scorned by all the elven gods, even Ehlonna and Fenmarel. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer implies they sold themselves to something like Yog-Sothoth aeons ago. Something that even the drow rejected as foolhardy, like Y'chak from Lords of Madness. As the LGG said, "For this the drow despise them, saying that they were made slaves to a lie, while the drow believe that lies should be used only to enslave others." Perhaps that's supposed to mean the Elder Elemental God, if you follow the theory that it's a false guise created by Tharizdun, or a charade created by Zuggtmoy.

    That also helps distinguish them from the snow elves, who are also rejected by both the surface elves and the drow, but at least they're still elves, not blasphemers that lost their souls to something alien.

    Fenmarel Mestarine's faithful are largely sylvan elves and grugach, who may feel marginalized in the realms of the high and gray elves but are still, unlike the valley elves, accepted as elves by their people.



    The Tawil at-Um'r !

    Ia Ia Yog Sothoth is the Key and the Gate!

    Opener of the Ways and Prolonged of Life.
    GreySage

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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 7:57 pm  

    CombatMedic wrote:
    , I believe in Monster Mythology. I have recently nabbed a copy. Good book. Generic, but because of that easy to use with GH.


    There are some subtle Greyhawk references (or, more specifically, From the Ashes references) there that might not be apparent at first, like the "long-dead lich-king" whose puzzles were deciphered by the giantish hero-goddess Diancastra was almost definitely Lyzandred, and the ki-rin said to be ridden by Pelor in From the Ashes must be Koriel. The goblinoid Power responsible for the "shimmering, undulating pools of magical darkness" in Darkpool in the Fellreev (in Iuz the Evil) is probably Stalker, who takes the form of a slow shadow and is said to have emerged from a dark underground complex in prehistory.

    There are more blatant references, too. Sehanine Moonbow originated in Monster Mythology, and she's all over From the Ashes. The giantish god Annam is said to have sent an avatar to observe the Rain of Colorless Fire. The Diirinken from From the Ashes are named for the derro god Diirinka. The Elder Elemental God is obviously inspired by the GDQ and T1-4 series and the Dark God by Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun.

    Also, is Water Lion from Monster Mythology the same as Leoceanius from Gary Gygax's novel Come Endless Darkness, or is the similarity between their names and appearances a coincidence?

    And, although this was almost certainly not deliberate on Carl Sargent's part, the mortal priest Nerull was trying to raise to divinity before Mellifleur intercepted the ritual was likely Kyuss, whose own apotheosis was mysteriously interrupted, resulting in his imprisonment in an obelisk for thousands of years in the Age of Worms adventure path.

    A deeper mystery: is Stillsong, who is said to have been destroyed and reborn in each of the elements, the entity once known as Tzunk, whose destruction had a ritual elemental component in Iuz the Evil?
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    Tue Jan 05, 2016 8:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    CombatMedic wrote:
    , I believe in Monster Mythology. I have recently nabbed a copy. Good book. Generic, but because of that easy to use with GH.


    There are some subtle Greyhawk references (or, more specifically, From the Ashes references) there that might not be apparent at first, like the "long-dead lich-king" whose puzzles were deciphered by the giantish hero-goddess Diancastra was almost definitely Lyzandred, and the ki-rin said to be ridden by Pelor in From the Ashes must be Koriel. The goblinoid Power responsible for the "shimmering, undulating pools of magical darkness" in Darkpool in the Fellreev (in Iuz the Evil) is probably Stalker, who takes the form of a slow shadow and is said to have emerged from a dark underground complex in prehistory.

    There are more blatant references, too. Sehanine Moonbow originated in Monster Mythology, and she's all over From the Ashes. The giantish god Annam is said to have sent an avatar to observe the Rain of Colorless Fire. The Diirinken from From the Ashes are named for the derro god Diirinka. The Elder Elemental God is obviously inspired by the GDQ and T1-4 series and the Dark God by Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun.

    Also, is Water Lion from Monster Mythology the same as Leoceanius from Gary Gygax's novel Come Endless Darkness, or is the similarity between their names and appearances a coincidence?

    And, although this was almost certainly not deliberate on Carl Sargent's part, the mortal priest Nerull was trying to raise to divinity before Mellifleur intercepted the ritual was likely Kyuss, whose own apotheosis was mysteriously interrupted, resulting in his imprisonment in an obelisk for thousands of years in the Age of Worms adventure path.

    A deeper mystery: is Stillsong, who is said to have been destroyed and reborn in each of the elements, the entity once known as Tzunk, whose destruction had a ritual elemental component in Iuz the Evil?



    Being as Sargent wrote Monster Mythology, I am not surprised to see he used related concepts and elements in his GH writing.
    Thanks for pointing out the more obscure connections.


    I am not a fan of the People of the Testing or the way the Lendore Isles get ethnically cleansed by fanatical elves.Because of that, I have long disliked Sehanine Moonbow. Unfair? Probably so. It's a quirk.

    On the other hand, we have elsewhere discussed how the conquest of those islands and the expulsion or subjugation ( some humans remain as servants" according to LGG, IIRC) could make for a fun pirates, rebels, smugglers sort of game with moon loving elf antagonists.

    Knife ears!


    As far as the Dark God, the text tells us how he stands at the end of time, filled with the the power of eternal darkness.

    I feel like totally badass metal to play when anyone encounters a tiny portion of his awesomeness on the Prime.

    Maybe also a rainbow in the dark should appear.
    With Gygaxian colors instead of the usual rainbow colors, natch. All weird purples, infrablack, ochres, etc.
    Swirling like the most LSD distorted Fruitopia sigil ever.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Jan 13, 2016 12:57 pm  

    tarelton wrote:
    I actually find most published material quite useful, so my list if more a "by exception" thing...


    -There's very little I won't accept.

    tarelton wrote:
    ...Fate of Istus: I discount the whole "Avatar Trilogy-lite" campaign, but incorporate much of the book into any campaign. There is also no reason that the Red Death cannot be a real illness, I just drop the mystical/calss-based aspect of it...


    -I'm doing that right now with Sage's Tower to some extent. I even accept Cymbelline as a special servant of Istus. The only thing I would have left out would have been every Thief (Rogue in D&D 3.5) loses a point of DEX?!

    The "orientals taught the Scarlet Brotherhood to be monks" thing is problematic, and I'd modify it or junk it. Maybe the visitors simply reinforced a pre-existing phenomonon?

    tarelton wrote:
    Child's Play: Could be the basis of the Flanaess version of Grand Fenwick...


    -I thought it would fit in nicely in the canton of Traft.

    tarelton wrote:
    Gargoyles: Useless...


    -I accept it, down to the ice cream parlor! I figure in an Oerth full of oddities, why not non-evil gargoyles who hang up their wings at night? Besides, I need that part of the Flanaess fleshed out.

    tarelton wrote:
    Castle Geyhawk: I actually laughed myself silly reading it, but incorporating into my version of the Flanaess (low fantasy) is difficult to accomplish...


    -I have to admit, I won't try.


    vestcoat wrote:
    ...I like Monte Cook (Dead Gods, Paladin in Hell, S6 Labyrinth of Madness, Heroes Tale), but hate his treatment of the EGG in RttToEE...


    -A bit of Oerthiana I haven't bought yet. I keep reading that I'm not missing much...

    Anyway, my choices would be the 1983 boxed set and the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer (for background and where the Oerth is likley to be in 591 CY). The rest is nice, but can wait. I use the population figures in LGG, and retrofit for the 570s on the theory that the Savant-Sage's work is "in character" and therefore fallible. The Savant-Sage's work, and the maps, is for the players, the rest is for the DM only.

    CombatMedic wrote:
    ...I am not a fan of the People of the Testing or the way the Lendore Isles get ethnically cleansed by fanatical elves...


    -Join the club, here:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5920

    ...or here:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5938
    GreySage

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    Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:00 pm  

    jamesdglick wrote:
    The "orientals taught the Scarlet Brotherhood to be monks" thing is problematic, and I'd modify it or junk it. Maybe the visitors simply reinforced a pre-existing phenomonon?


    The Scarlet Brotherhood rewrote this entirely, stating that the Scarlet Brotherhood was already ruled by monks when they migrated to the Tilvanot from the Suel Imperium. The founder, Kevelli Mauk, was a monk, as was his student Wastri.

    What if instead of being a portal to Kara-Tur, the portal led to a far more alien race, like the tsochar (from Lords of Madness)? The tsochar are body-snatchers, wormlike parasites who inhabit the forms of other races and use their bodies like puppets. They might even look like Kara-Turans, at least in the initial colonization wave before they began inhabiting Suloise people as well.

    jamesdglick wrote:
    tarelton wrote:
    Child's Play: Could be the basis of the Flanaess version of Grand Fenwick...


    -I thought it would fit in nicely in the canton of Traft.


    It does look like the terrain there is a good match for the Child's Play map, with Draufsicht standing in for Castle Spring. Making the module's backstory fit with the history of Perrenland would be harder. One idea is to turn King Jacobus into Perren, and have the founding constitution of Perrenland lost since Iggwilv's reign.

    Queen Amber Lune, the current queen's grandmother, was an enchantress installed as ruler of Traft by Iggwilv. Amber managed to hold on to her domain after the Witch-Queen's downfall through a campaign of disinformation. Her great grandchildren are looking for the original documents relating to the founding of Perrenland in 400 CY, intent on the idea that the canton of Traft is properly a republic, with leaders voted in by the heads of the clans, rather than a hereditary monarchy. The villains of the story, including the vampires Luigi and Mallus, work not for the pro-republican great-grandchildren but for the current queen, Joanna, who wishes only to preserve the lies that are the foundation of her family's power. If the PCs are successful, Joanna is overthrown and the canton of Traft joins the rest of Perrenland as a republic.

    The big question is what to do with the awkward plot about Yeenoghu hunting for rabbits, which takes up quite a lot of the adventure and seems like a disappointing excuse for a demonic invasion. Perhaps Queen Joanna has bound Yeenoghu (or, more likely, a lesser demon) to her service using a copy of the Demonomicon of Iggwilv, and has unleashed a horde of demons across the land to thwart the PCs.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:32 am  

    RE: Oriental monks and the SB


    I don't see anything I would describe as problematic.
    It all ties up quite nicely, with no big holes in logic or missing links.

    Rather, I would describe it as unnecessary.

    GH already has Faux-Oriental cultures with some monk type characters. The Baklunish.
    Xan Yae's clerics may gain monk like abilities.
    Could it be that the SB uses a secularized adaptation of the mystical fighting abilities of Baklunish ascetics?

    Or, if one does not go that route, why not simply state that the monkish arts were developed by the SB on its own?

    I do like to keep monks ( PHB type) rare and exotic in GH. But that need not involve Kara Tur.

    Then again, some people really like Kara Tur and thus might enjoy a tie in with GH.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:42 am  

    RE Child's Play

    I have seen a copy and read reviews, but I do not own one.
    So please pardon any mistakes in what follows.

    My impression of the module is that the PCs are tasked with stopping a democratic revolution/ coup that is being organized by the queen's grandchildren.

    So , not simply a republic, but a democracy. I dunno if the module makes it clear, but this reference to democracy makes it seem like mob rule is in the offing. Of course the treacherous royal grandchildren and their cronies think they can control the revolution.
    Better ask Philllipe Egalite how that worked out.

    It could work in Perrenland, as Rasgon suggests.

    But for my part I think I would prefer to place Rhesdain nearby. The Darlene map is quite large and thus leaves plenty of room for small principalities. Probably with some cultural ties to Old Ferrond and to modern Veluna (the Lune dynasty).
    But I know some guys prefer not adding "new" states.

    YMMV, and again, I do not actually have the module. I may be misunderstanding important parts.


    Last edited by CombatMedic on Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:40 am; edited 1 time in total
    GreySage

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    Posts: 3310
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    Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:17 pm  

    CombatMedic wrote:
    But for my part I think I would prefer to place Rhesdain nearby. The Darlene map is quite large and thus leaves plenty of room for small principalities.


    I think even if you make it one of Perrenland's cantons, it's going to be at least a semi-independent state anyway, since it's a monarchy in its own right. Picking smaller duchies, earldoms, and other provinces (from Anna's map or elsewhere) and establishing them as mostly or entirely independent is probably the easiest way to create 'new' states in the Flanaess.

    As written, Child's Play is a light-hearted, somewhat silly tournament-style adventure for very young players. If that's who you're playing with, there's little reason not to play it as written.


    Last edited by rasgon on Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:26 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    CombatMedic wrote:
    But for my part I think I would prefer to place Rhesdain nearby. The Darlene map is quite large and thus leaves plenty of room for small principalities.


    I think even if you make it one of Perrenland's cantons, it's going to be at least a semi-independent state anyway, since it's a monarchy in its own right. Picking smaller duchies, earldoms, and other provinces (from Anna's map or elsewhere) and establishing them as mostly or entirely independent is probably the easiest way to create 'new' states in the Flanaess anyway.

    As written, Child's Play is a light-hearted, somewhat silly tournament-style adventure for very young players. If that's who you're playing with, there's little reason not to play it as written.



    I will keep that in mind if I end up running kids again this year.

    Possible, but unlikely due to schedules.

    The PDF is cheap.
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