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    Canonfire :: View topic - Language Comparison
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    Language Comparison
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    Novice

    Joined: Jan 17, 2005
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    Wed Feb 23, 2005 11:15 pm  
    Language Comparison

    It's been awhile that I have been wondering if the languages in the Flannaess can best be described by comparison to other existing languages from other campaign settings and against real world languages. I hope people can help me out in this little project. Have you not wondered exactly what language is "common"? We have heard of stories that Mordenkainen meets with....err, what's his name again?....that sage wizard from Toril....in some plane of existence to share magical knowledge. So what is the common language for them to understand each other. How was Lord Soth and Azalin (of which did come from Oerth) able to freely commune, barring supernatural effects, with the lord of Barovia, Strahd? Is the goblioid language the same in every other Prime Material World settings?

    Please help.....I would like contributions to this as I beleive in better fleshing out gameplay by being able to solidly define at least languages. Especially in our group where we play multiple campaign settings.

    1) Real World English = Oerth??? = Toril??? = Krynn??? = Ravenloft???
    2) Real World??? = Oerth common = Toril common? = Krynn??? = Ravenloft???
    3) Real World Arabic = Baklunish? = Toril??? = Krynn??? = Ravenloft???
    4) Real World German = Oerth??? = Toril??? = Krynn??? = Mordentish
    5) Real World??? = Old Oeridian = Toril??? = Krynn??? = Darkonese?


    etc....etc...etc...Please help add-in and correct when necessary.......
    Thanks all.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 24, 2004
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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 6:07 am  

    Mordentish as German? Shocked
    Where did you pick something like that?
    I think it should be something like this:

    Latin ---> Old Oeridian ---> Darkonese (read Gazetteer II... After all we have an Azalin Rex)

    English ---> Mordentish

    Arabian ---> Baklunish

    I don't see anything linking the Common tongue of different spheres.
    I'd say there're Flanaess Common, Faerun Common and so on. Same about Undercommon.

    Since the demihuman and humanoid races are virtually all the same, I'd say Elven, Gnomish and so on are virtually similiar. I picture a faerunian elf and a oerthian elf would speak with almost no problem, being their language really alike.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 24, 2005 11:12 pm  

    For what it's worth....

    I use a simplified modern American English as Common, since it has elements of so many languages. I don't require players to speak in it, but drop the articles, simplify the sentence structure, and use as few syllables as possible. Think of a Hollywood version of an American Indian or Russian.

    I'm using Germanic/Nordic names for my Yeomanry campaign, mainly because I know a bit of German, and have good resources for Nordic names. Grossspokesman Gilfus Bodospear, Sheriff Olfstig Brendhelm, and Yeoman Commander Eothelm Viland all agree.

    With no other support than "because it made sense at the time", I'm using the following broad equivalencies/generalizations:

    Baklunish = Middle Eastern languages (Arabic, Turkish, -stani)
    Rhenee = Romani (Gypsy)
    Flan = Celtic or ancient Brittanic languages
    Suel = Germanic languages, including some Russian and Nordic tongues
    Oeridian = Romance languages, including Greek

    Telas
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    Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:09 pm  

    Old Oeridian---> maybe latin, but now in alhissa and in northen aerdy names and titles are clearly german-like ( Herzog means Duke in modern German ), but english-like too. So the best solution is considering old oeridian not different from gothic ( ancient german ); german and english ( the comon language ) were born from gothic/old oeridian.

    Baklunish----> surely arab

    flan-----> gaelic

    suel-----> not easy.... maybe a ugro-finnic language.
    Kobold Pinata

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002
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    From: Melbourne, Australia

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    Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:28 pm  
    (long)

    Baklunish is obviously middle-eastern languages and the further west you go, the more asian the influence becomes (mongols/tiger nomads, etc.).

    As was discussed aons ago in the Greytalk chat, the Great Kingdom was not always medieval in nature, neither was most of the Flanaess. We hit upon a nice corralation to earth history with the establishment of the Great Kingdom.

    Essentially, it took about two hundred years for the tribes of the oeridiens to fight amongst the other races and themselves before they became a coherent whole. It was really more that tribes grew larger and more prosperous and began to bump into each other and sought diplomatic solutions due to their similar power-levels. Blood had little to do with it, as is evidenced by the fact that the Aerdi became the dominant bloodline since to do so, it would've had to have eradicated all others.

    So somewhere in the eastern lands, probably somewhere around Medigia or thereabouts, a common rule began and the first overlords rose to power. It was here that they began the transformation from barbarian tribes into a civilized nation. It was agreed that the corralation to earth would be something akin to the establishment of the Roman Empire, including a lot of the symbology that was significant to the age, ie. banners and crests, columns and architecture, city layout and design, trade agreements and road construction, all of which was unique to the empire in some way. Other civilizations created roads, but they did it in a way unique to them, so there is a sort of symbology associated with everything the early Aerdi did.

    Anyway, without going into a major history lesson, we basically agreed that it evolved over the last 575 to 591 years into something very much like the Prussian Empire, and thus had a very strong germanic flavour.

    So... for old oeridien I use latin and mix it up with german for modern terms. Since common has its roots in the oeridien language, I try and sprinkle these two influences into the game whenever possible, keeping in mind that it is a fantasy game and so I don't use direct translations, just the general sound and feel of a language.

    For instance, one of the players in my game is a Furyondian spy. I have Furyondy at a slightly lesser technology and culture level than the great kingdom, since they split off from it and had their own evolvement thereafter, which had significantly less cultural input from other sources outside their lands than the great kingdom continued to have after the split.

    Anyway, Furyondy still clings to a lot of the original traditions that were established by the Aerdi during the glory days of the empire. Heironeous is no longer the state religion, but it is still the closest thing to it as all secondborn sons to noble parents become clerics under Heironeous, all firstborn sons get tutelage in the church and many become paladins under Heironeous. Third-born sons become wizards, but that's another story :D

    The point is is that they still maintain a lot of archaic laws and customs that date back to the dominance of the Great Kingdom. One of these is having a royal spy network governed by the King's Spymaster. The organization has it's own codes of conduct, which are rather lawful, as well as it's own traditions, which include certain signifiers of rank and prestige. One of these is the giving of a sword, handed down through the generations. The ownership of this sword means that you are a chosen representative of the spymaster, which holds significant prestige amongst the spies of the network. Only a bard with high lore or one of the spies or a rival spy would know the meaning behind the sword, however.

    On the sword is engraved, "Signius Asti Ferrondi" which roughly translates to, "Bearer of the Trust of Furyondy". So, the point is, the above doesn't translate into latin, but it sure sounds cool :)
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    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Sat Feb 26, 2005 7:20 am  

    I think for the ancient flan tongie an amalgamation of various native american languages is most appropriate. If you look at the Flan names and titles in the LGG I don't think many of them have a gaelic or celtic sound to them at all. In fact the more I look at the Flan the less uniquely Celtic aspects I see with the exception of the druidic faith the basis of which is similar to native american nature reverance anyways. If you look at the Rovers of the Barrens who are an example of a pure Flan culture pretty much the names and titles are completely Native American...they are officially called the Arapahi and are ruled by an Ataman and notable characters from their history are Nakanwa Daychaser and Durishi Great Hound.


    A good indication for picking an Earth comparison language for a region could be by looking at the titles used for their leaders such as Ilkhan or Voorman. Many of these are regional titles from Earth's history.

    It is quit elikely for their to be many regional dialects of Common and the ancient tongues too so Ancient Suloise dosn't have to sound exactly the same in one place as it does in another. Languages are dynamic - its only when they cease to be this way that they become dead languages - so only those ancient languages no longer spoken will be frozen in time.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 24, 2004
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    Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:04 pm  

    Quote:
    Old Oeridian---> maybe latin, but now in alhissa and in northen aerdy names and titles are clearly german-like ( Herzog means Duke in modern German ), but english-like too. So the best solution is considering old oeridian not different from gothic ( ancient german ); german and english ( the comon language ) were born from gothic/old oeridian.


    You're right... I guess you can see it as an evolution... Or, to say it in a "sternalianish" way, a corruption of the Old Oeridian.

    I point Old Oeridian in a "Latin" direction because of the relationship between Old Aerdy and Darkon, the domain of Azalin Rex (in the Ravenloft setting).
    Since we have a domain in which a city is called Necropolis, the king is called "Rex", a wine is called "spuma somni" and a dish is the "crusto carnis", one can make guesses... Wink
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:30 pm  
    Ancient Suloise

    The Ancient Suel language is known to use pictograms and elaborate images over actual words. Now considering this factor I've always considered the Suel language something more akin to Ancient Egyptian/ Ancient Babylonia. Where their primary languages also consisted heavily of pictograms over words.

    Ancient Baklunish - I've imagined this as more of a hebrew/ arabic mix.

    Old Oeridian - I'd imagine this is much like the Anglo-Saxon language, maybe with a little bit of Norman/ Gaul influence. Though I can't deny the Latin idea I see them more with this strong influence over the other, especially in reference to the Horsemen of Ket. Present day Oeridian I can definitely see as more Latin based.


    Flan - this could be a mix b/w Gaelic, Celtic, with some early Germanic language references as well (esp when introduced to the Oeridians)

    Olman - I see this as a mix b/w Aztec/ Swahili (african-based language), and Mayan.

    Rhennee - this is probably something more of a Russian-based language.
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    Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:00 pm  

    I've always used Latin (sometimes actual Latin -- e.g. Pholtus lo volt! -- though none of my players know Latin, they can identify it) for Old Oeridian. Were my players ever to head into the ruins of Rauxes, I would use classical Roman architecture, but on an even grander scale (it is fantasy, after all).

    For the Flan, I've always gone with more Native American than Celtic influences. Primarily because the Rovers of the Barrens seem to be heavily informed by Native American culture, but I also just think it's kind of cool to represent the Native Americans.

    Baklunish -- Middle-Eastern, obviously. Ket is important in my Greyhawk, though, as the gateway to the West. I use Lopolla as a sort of Constantinople, but without the historical importance the actual one had.

    I've never really given much thought to the Suloise, or their language, but I'd make it something completely independent of Earth history. A non-Indo European language, like Finnish or Japanese perhaps. It would definitely be smooth, though -- it would roll off the tongue.

    Gary
    Kobold Pinata

    Joined: Oct 18, 2002
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    Fri Mar 04, 2005 3:43 pm  

    Wolfling wrote:
    In fact the more I look at the Flan the less uniquely Celtic aspects I see with the exception of the druidic faith the basis of which is similar to native american nature reverance anyways.

    Err, no... it's truly not. Not even close. The druids are VERY celtic. Having said that, 3rd edition has changed that a lot and moved away from the celtic basis and made them far more generic. But still, their powers are very much in line with a celtic theme.

    As for the Flan, I think what a lot of people fail to realize, is that they're not one people. They are, much like the American Indians, and the Australian Aborigines, labelled as one people by outsiders, even though from region to region, and even from tribe to tribe, they are distinctly different, with different cultures, languages and even faiths.

    It's all very well to go and say that the Rovers of the Barrens are very Ameri-indian-like, and I'd agree, however the Tenha certainly aren't, nor were the Ur-Flan, or those in Perrenland, or Geoff. In fact, these examples are even more distinct from the Rovers than are the various earth-equivalents and have entirely different cultures from their northern neighbours.

    I tend to go with the following:

    Rovers = Ameri-indian.
    Perreners = northern european
    Tenha = technologically advanced mexican-like culture (they even claim to hail from the Tostenhca), imagine mexico five hundred years ago and advance using european medieval influences
    Ur-Flan = obviously none exist, but their language can be found in ancient ruins, so I tend to go with cuneform with a persian-like sounding language
    Western Flan = (all those west of the lortmils) it's these that I give the strongest celtic influence to and not just because of Living Greyhawk (Gyruff indeed!), as it just seems to fit well with the general environment there and people, having said that, I also advance the technology significantly from celtic origins to a more dark-ages level. I like the idea that they once had a thriving culture with a rich history and a kinship with the land, that has gone somewhat backwards over the last few hundred years due to suel/oeridien influence. So on the whole, a modern gaelic kind of language.
    _________________
    In more modern times, only Delglath of Rinloru is known to have crafted any items from the stone of this atrocious place. Even masters of the dark arts such as Xaene and Karoolck would hesitate to follow.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    From: Blue, The Pomarj (Lehigh Valley, PA)

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    Sat Mar 05, 2005 2:55 pm  
    Alphabets for Greyhawk Languages

    Try this site: http://www.omniglot.com/writing/atoz.htm

    For Ancient Suel, I would recommend Akkadian (Mesopotamian origin), which was written in cuneiform, or perhaps Assyrian, because the Suel seem to have that "cradle of civilization" feel to their ancient culture, with the rise of their city-states, ziggurats in their architecture, etc. Maybe even Persian, Pahlavi or Farsi?

    For Old Oeridian, perhaps Etruscan or Old Italic, which then evolved into Gothic (sort of a Latinized Germanic language) or Latin itself.

    Flan:
    Ur-Flan: Tocharian (an extinct Indo-European language thought to have been spoken by caucasians in western China circa 600-800 AD)

    Sulm: Aramaic or Ancient Berber

    Rovers: Apache, Cherokee, etc.

    Blackmoor: Hungarian or Russian

    Tostencha(Skrellingshald): Old Danish

    The rest: Gaelic, Celtiberian, Welsh, Cornish, Manx, etc.


    Baklunish:
    In Ket: Azeri
    In Zeif and Ekbir: Arabic
    Tusmit: Turkish/Turkmen


    Rhenee: Romani, which has elements of Sanskrit/Hindustani
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:52 pm  
    Re: Alphabets for Greyhawk Languages

    setanta wrote:
    Rovers: Apache, Cherokee, etc.


    I agree whoheartedly, with Setana, with one caveat. Both Apache and Cherokee are much removed from an area that the Algonquin natives lived in. I am making an assumption there ... They are called the "Arapahi", and I equate them with the Arapahoe, both culturally and linguistically. I would use the Arapahoe language, rather than one from the Southwest desert (Apache), or the Eastern Woodlands (Cherokee). It just seems to fit better to use an Algonquin language.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:01 pm  
    Re: Ancient Suloise

    Duicarthan wrote:
    Rhennee - this is probably something more of a Russian-based language.


    I would have to disagree. The Romani language is very appropriate for the Rhennee. Every use of them I hae ever seen have them using it. And if you follow their culture, it really kind of makes sense. They are Gypsies, after all. But Gypsies of different regions of Europe often have different sounding names and whatnot, explaining why some of them often sound very Russian, Romanian, Polish, Hungarian, Latvian , et al.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:28 am  

    I'll bump this back up...
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 11, 2009 7:37 am  

    This link might be useful.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 27, 2009 7:40 am  
    Language link

    Rasgon ...
    I hadn't gotten around to looking at this thread since it had been bumped back up, but I really enjoyed it when it was going strong ... but, the link you provided got me a "404 Error, Not found".

    I would love to see your input on the language stuff, and know what the link is, if you'd repost it.
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    GreySage

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    Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:01 am  

    The link's moved to here.
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