Two figures from ancient Oeridian history, predating the Great Migrations, both famed for overthrowing tyrants and freeing their people. Were they contemporaries, do you think? Companions? Johydee became a queen, Arnd the founder of the first order of paladins of Heironeous. Or perhaps they belonged to separate generations. What do you think?
Other than 1st edition DMG and maybe some passing references in Ivid the Undying, are there any sources, canon or otherwise, on either of them? I kind of vaguely remember some Johydee thing somewhere, but as for Arnd, all I remember him for was his armor.
I always thought of Arnd as being from very ancient days (and Tdon is ancient in regard to him, and Dahlver-Nar is ancient in relation to even Tdon), with Johydee being from a newer but still ancient time, and from different areas. I'd rather not lump everything into one age, namely because I'm just not that fond of the propensity people seem to have to relate everything.
A is actually B's father's aunt's third cousin's baby momma on their mother's side eight times removed, and they both just so happened to have grown up two houses apart in the city of Z. Also, their god father was Mordenkainen's great (x 5!) grandmother's nephew's teacher's son, who's mother was the nanny of Zagyg (or is that Xagig?), who was also the half-sister of Iggwilv, and who in a previous life (she was reincarnated multiple times) dated Vecna before he became (in his own words) "a BIG deal."
The best reason for this is we get to write not one legend that encompasses every ancient person/place/thing, but get the opportunity to write many, many legends that stand all on their own and are each fantastic in their own right. I would prefer not to have one legend tree with many branches, but a giant bag full of legend seeds to scatter hither and yon. While material featuring ancient people/places/things is very interesting, it is often only something a DM sees. It is a good idea to incorporate more of such material into what players can find out through adventuring or researching. Such info is very enriching to the gaming experience. A good example of this is the first time I played Morrowind. That game is full of books on the gods, the world, and things in it. You can open and read them all, and many somebodies took the time to write what is in them. Some lead to quests, and others are informative, or sometimes just entertaining. It would be very cool to have more of that for Greyhawk (including *NEW* ancient legends). Wow, but that would make for a great Postefest. Oooh, cool looking little pdf tomes of Greyhawk Lore! We need a "drool" emoticon!
But, surprise, surprise, I digress. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Other than 1st edition DMG and maybe some passing references in Ivid the Undying, are there any sources, canon or otherwise, on either of them? I kind of vaguely remember some Johydee thing somewhere, but as for Arnd, all I remember him for was his armor.
I'm more curious about what people prefer for their own campaigns than what canon has to say about the issue, but since you asked:
Arnd of Tdon Book of Artifacts: "Only scant details still remain of the people of a small, ancient nation oppressed and impoverished by the wizard Virtos. All of the champions sent by the people to free them from Virtos's yoke had failed. With no one else to take up their cause, the priests and great craftsmen combined forces to create a mail coat. This artifact would endow the wearer with the courage and strength to defeat Virtos. When the coat was completed, the priests prayed for a champion. One week later Arnd, a humble priest from the south, entered the city. Arnd's order believed strongly in aiding impoverished folk at every opportunity, and Arnd himself was a most dedicated follower... Arnd agreed to don the Coat and lead the masses into battle. The victory was a sound one and Virtos was overthrown utterly. After the victory, Arnd disappeared, taking the Coat as a gift."
Iuz the Evil: "Now, the Declaimers' [of Stroun] whereabouts are unknown. They have disappeared as completely as the dervish High priests of Tdon, ten centuries before them."
Dragon #299, "All Oerth's Artifacts": "If only scholars could agree on who or what 'Tdon' was, there might be a decent chance of discovering this long-lost artifact."
Dungeon #104, "Paladins of Greyhawk": "Paladins of Heironeous trace their lineage back to the legendary Arnd of Tdon, who established the first paladins of the Invincible One among the Oeridian tribes ages ago, before the Great Migrations. Some consider their order of holy warriors the first true paladins."
Dragon #354, "Core Beliefs: Heironeous": "This fine chain shirt was either created by or owned by the legendary Oeridian hero Arnd of Tdon, who established the first paladin orders of Heironeous among his people more than a thousand years ago."
4th edition Dungeon Master's Guide: "This gleaming chain mail belonged to a poor cleric of Kord who fought to free his village from its tyrannical baron. Imbued with the cleric’s fighting spirit and holy strength, the Invulnerable Coat of Arnd seeks to reclaim its ancient glory."
Johydee Book of Artifacts: "In a frontier region on the border of the Seven Kingdoms, a well-organized band of thieves took up residence to plunder the trade routes to the east... Johydee, a high priestess, came to tend the spiritual needs of the village. Serving a goddess of truth and justice, she was horrified by the great injustices the villagers had been forced to endure, and set about freeing them from this tyranny. Johydee heard about an old hermit, said to have once been a great illusionist, living in the hills nearby. For a full month he labored, finally delivering a mask to the high priestess..."
Ivid the Undying: "the house [of Cranden] itself has produced some of the greatest names in all Oerth's history; Johydee, Tuerny the Merciless, Schandor, and more modern luminaries..."
Ivid the Undying: "'Johydee's Children' is the name bestowed upon very, very rare Aerdi individuals of exceptional magical gifts. The name is given for two reasons, not because the individuals concerned are literally descended from Johydee. First, Queen Johydee of pre-Devastation history was a priestess of great magical prowess, favored by the gods themselves..."
Living Greyhawk Gazetteer: "Where are the fabled realms ruled by Johydee?"
Living Greyhawk Journal #3: "Before the Oeridians began their migration into the Flanaess, their race was scattered throughout much of Western Oerik. In the timelost centuries before the Suel and Baklunish empires initiated their terrible conflict, the servants of evil deities held sway over the most prominent Oeridian nation. In time, the wise priestess Johydee tricked them into creating a magical mask, which she used to overthrow their hold on their people. While she became a hero-goddess long ago, her sponsor is not known, nor is whom she worshipped in mortal life."
The Orb of Sol: "Many later legends connect its use to the priestess Johydee who reportedly used the powers of the Orb against the depraved enemies of the Aerdi tribes while they were scrambling to escape the all-engulfing wars of the Suel and Baklunish in the Far West. "
A history of religion in the Flanaess: "Wherever they went they brought with them their great revelation, the Prophesies of Johydee named for the ancient queen who inspired them to travel to the edge of the eastern sea, they were initially written on the inside of Johydee's famous Mask."
Both are clearly ancient Oeridians. But Johydee is specifically identified as an Aerdi tribe member. For Arnd tribal affiliation seems to be unknown. If - big if - they are contemporaries, might Arnd be distinguished as a "pan-Oeridian" whereas Johydee may be concerned with her own realm and specifically the Aerdi people? Perhaps Arnd is a wandering, itinerant priest, preoccupied with spreading the knowledge of paladinhood.
Perhaps a linkage could be how the respective artifacts were made. Both are reputed to be made by mortals other than the namesake wielders, - or perhaps deities in disguise (which would be especially appropriate for Johydees' Mask).
My own opinion is that Arnd comes from a time prior to significant division of the Oeridian people into separate tribes, while Johydee exists during a latter period where tribal division has taken root to the point of separate nations among the Oeridian people.
My own opinion is that Arnd comes from a time prior to significant division of the Oeridian people into separate tribes, while Johydee exists during a latter period where tribal division has taken root to the point of separate nations among the Oeridian people.
This sounds reasonable. I asked my initial question because I found a timeline I'd made a while ago where I'd placed Arnd's battle against Virtos 26 years before Johydee's trickery with her Mask, and I was wondering where I'd got such a specific number. I still have no idea; it might have been arbitrary and provisional. It seems possible that they were the saviors of separate Oeridian nations (Johydee's entry in the Book of Artifacts mentions seven kingdoms, though these might not have been Oeridian) in vastly different time periods. They might also have been the same kingdom in the same period, but I like your opinion.
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Perhaps a linkage could be how the respective artifacts were made. Both are reputed to be made by mortals other than the namesake wielders, - or perhaps deities in disguise (which would be especially appropriate for Johydees' Mask).
One thing that occurred to me is that both the Book of Artifacts and Iuz the Evil mention the priests of Tdon "disappearing" (although in the BoA it's Arnd who disappears). What if the priests of Tdon literally gave up their essence to create the armor, sacrificing their souls and bodies to empower an artifact powerful enough to free their people?
Book of Artifacts has Johydee gaining her mask from a mysterious hermit who might indeed be a disguised deity. Olidammara seems like an appropriate choice for crafting a magical mask useful for tricking one's opponents. The Living Greyhawk Journal #3's entry on Johydee has the priestess tricking the "servants of evil deities" into creating an artifact that she could use against them. It'd be tempting to have cultists of Fraz-Urb'luu and/or Syrul be involved. Erythnul also has a mask symbol, and it'd make sense for followers of Erythnul to be responsible for tyrannizing the ancient Oeridians. Erythnul doesn't seem particularly tricky, but his followers seem eminently trickable.
The latter origin seems a little better because Johydee using cleverness to bring about her artifact is more impressive than her simply commissioning it.
If she wasn't a cleric of Olidammara, Lydia seems like a reasonable approximation of the "goddess of truth and justice" mentioned in the Book of Artifacts, though that line might be spurious, appropriate for the generic version of Johydee rather than Greyhawk's Johydee. Johydee might also have tricked her way into heroine-divinity, convincing an evil deity she was a loyal acolyte until she had gained her immortality.
Another possibility is that Johydee herself was one of the clerics who helped empower the Invulnerable Coat, assuming it didn't cost every cleric who participated in the ritual their existence. Perhaps she even tricked some of the clerics of evil deities into helping her craft the Coat for Arnd, and they were the ones who paid the price for it. That is, the "priests and great craftsmen" who created the Coat weren't the "dervish high priests of Tdon" to which Arnd belonged, but Johydee and a group of followers of evil deities she had roped into the ritual under false pretenses.
It seems possible that prior to their migration, the Oeridians were enslaved by Hule if you choose to place module X5 west of the Flanaess. The Oerth Journal #1 timeline has the Oeridians enslaved by the Suloise emperor Zinkman in -1082 CY before the emperor was defeated by St. Cuthbert; you could swap St. Cuthbert for Arnd and have Arnd defeat Zinkman instead of or in addition to Virtos.
When it comes to the creation of the Coat of Arnd, I keep thinking of meersalm (spelling?), the material related to invulnerability and Heironeous, having some sort of role.
Perhaps the potency of the material, and its use in the construction of the Coat spelled doom for those who crafted it. Or meersalm itself might be a manifestation of utter devotion to the righteous defense of others (with respect to Heironeous, the deity guards the worshipers and the worshipers guard the deity). Perhaps the priests of Tdon involved in the crafting literally sublimated into meersalm which infuses the Coat?
I always liked the idea that the reason the Invulnerable Coat was this legendary artifact was that it was the first suit of chainmail ever made, and brought about a revolution in armour (and hence an arms race) way back when.
I always liked the idea that the reason the Invulnerable Coat was this legendary artifact was that it was the first suit of chainmail ever made, and brought about a revolution in armour (and hence an arms race) way back when.
I think I actually remember reading that somewhere. It would make a great "just so" story in any case. Since technology only slowly progresses in the Flanaess, and chain armor historically did not begin to be supplanted for almost 1,700 years, one could assume that a few thousand years ago, its introduction was a huge change in military technology along with the stirrup (which I like to think the Oeridians invented/adapted as well near the same time). Together, even a small force of elite mailed horsemen leading a less-well equipped tribal levy, would have been a terrible shock to the more primitive (Bronze Age) Flan, as well as the Suel and Baklunish. In fact, according to Ivid the Undying plate armor is the most advanced armor int he Flanaess, and it is of recent invention (I say within a hundred years or so).
The Invulnerable Coat of Arnd was originally placed in the Lake Geneva Greyhawk campaign in the Dark Druids scenario (originally set in the Gnarley Forest), which was republished by Chaotic Henchmen with all new art and layout last year; details @ http://www.chaotichenchmen.com/p/dark-druids-by-robert-j-kuntz.html
That scenario ties back to Tharizdun and the Tarrasque too (the old Tharizdun download from here was incorporated into the new edition of Dark Druids). _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I think I have a copy of the first version of Dark Druids. Now I'll have to dig it out and have a look. Too much stuff out there. Why can't I win the lottery! Ah, yes, I have to buy a ticket! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
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