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    Canonfire :: View topic - Greyhawk and WOTC: A message needs to be sent, plz read.
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    Greyhawk and WOTC: A message needs to be sent, plz read.
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    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

    Joined: Dec 09, 2002
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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 9:28 am  
    Greyhawk and WOTC: A message needs to be sent, plz read.

    In the articles below address the views of Charles Dancey of WoTC. I would like anyone interested in GH in any way to perhaps take a look at WOTC marketing strategy. Maybe we should send them a small message to tell them we do support Greyhawk and thats its been proven in Dungeon magazine. Plz keep all responses in these threads positive and informative. Flame wars will only shut down the thread.

    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=395908

    http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=399440

    Thanks for looking and supporting Greyhawk. =)
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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 10:01 am  

    The real problem is, the foundation concept he mentions, that of a limited number of settings, is sound. It is just what many of us believe is the failure to recognize GH as superior in marketing power to other settings. That makes it rather hard to just assert that no, their beliefs, and whatever research figures they might have, are wrong, and all of us are right.

    And of course it doesn't address the other flaws in their marketing strategy.

    Ah well. At least we can stop wondering when someone will get a GH license. Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 11:49 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    The real problem is, the foundation concept he mentions, that of a limited number of settings, is sound. It is just what many of us believe is the failure to recognize GH as superior in marketing power to other settings. That makes it rather hard to just assert that no, their beliefs, and whatever research figures they might have, are wrong, and all of us are right.

    And of course it doesn't address the other flaws in their marketing strategy.

    Ah well. At least we can stop wondering when someone will get a GH license. Laughing


    I agree with Sam. The foundational concept is valid. Two, however, seems a very low threshhold, IMO. Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as tenaciously loyal, the LG gives those loyal fans a bunch of new playmates, the GH 3E default introduces Greyhawk as an idea to many more. This ain't rocket science. If GH creates loyal fans and it is presently being gadded about - PLAY TO THAT! Build more ultra loyal fans! Play to GH's admitted strength. Or license it, as Lincoln said to General McCellan (paraphrased), "If you are not using the Army of the Potomic, I'd like to borrow it."
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    GVD
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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:11 pm  

    Actually, I think two is too many. One game, one setting. And leave other settings to licensees. That way you can focus your product releases on a single setting, with all the material suitable for use with it. If you really want to do another setting, just license the material to a subsidiary. But keep it under a separate imprimatur to avoid flooding one setting and set of products with too much mass.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 4:45 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as tenaciously loyal


    Actually, Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as terminally bickering and divided. Loyal? To what?

    You have those Greyhawk fans who _only_ acknowledge Gygax as the writer of true canonical material. Anything else is crap.

    You have the fans of the Greyhawk Wars period; you have the fans of Living Greyhawk... I think there's possibly five different factions by now, if not more.
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    Merric Blackman
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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 5:08 pm  
    I just saw it

    It took me awhile, but I just figured it out. WOTC/Hasbro does not want to invest the cash.

    We dont need to convince them folks, they know that GH is a winner, or at least they are pretty sure of it. Sure enough that they dont want to let it goto a third party who might just steal away all the FR fans, and wipe up Eberron.

    If they sell it to someone with sufficient capital, they are pretty sure it will cut heavily into Forgotten Realms. If they sell it to someone with too little capital, in the ensuing bankruptcy, they might loose control of the property.

    If we were a true niche market, as they espouse, we would have a third party deal like DL or Ravenloft. That simply dosent fly.

    Nope, our beloved setting will idly on the shelf, with WOTC hoping hit has shelf life, so that it wont steal their silver medal horse's thunder. Why invest in a gold horse when the silver medal one is paid for? They dont want a succesful setting, they want things that wont cut into their existing products.

    Sad really.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 6:05 pm  

    Honestly, if you really want to get Greyhawk support from Wizards, you might consider joining the RPGA and reporting your regular home Greyhawk campaign through their database.

    As of last month, you can sanction homebrew adventures, and report which world you use - well, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Other.

    If Wizards notice a large number of homebrew Greyhawk campaigns, that'd be the best sign to them of fan support for the setting.

    Cheers!
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    Merric Blackman
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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 7:56 pm  

    MerricB wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as tenaciously loyal


    Actually, Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as terminally bickering and divided. Loyal? To what?

    You have those Greyhawk fans who _only_ acknowledge Gygax as the writer of true canonical material. Anything else is crap.

    You have the fans of the Greyhawk Wars period; you have the fans of Living Greyhawk... I think there's possibly five different factions by now, if not more.


    Hi Merric, Smile

    There is that reputation and those divisions but, in this case, I think it is a "trees and forest" thing. Despite those differences and sometimes stormy temperments, there is a common love of Greyhawk in one guise or another. THAT can be marketed too, if one is nimble in their marketing. Similarly, Greyhawk's "nostalgia" can be marketed to. As can Greyhawk's "pseudo-academia." In fact, Greyhawk can turn many perceived "negatives" into positives with just a bit of thought. D&D once has a subversive, "cult" status that gave it a particular cachet before D&D got "dumbed-down" for 14 year olds. Greyhawk still has that cachet; it just has not been effectively marketed to, likely because the marketers came to D&D from marketing Pokemon cards or what have you. Don't sell Greyhawk short. Its negatives are positives just waiting to be played up. IMO. Smile
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    GVD
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:07 pm  

    GVD>Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as tenaciously loyal

    MerricB wrote:
    Actually, Greyhawk fans are acknowledged as terminally bickering and divided. Loyal? To what?

    You have those Greyhawk fans who _only_ acknowledge Gygax as the writer of true canonical material. Anything else is crap.

    You have the fans of the Greyhawk Wars period; you have the fans of Living Greyhawk... I think there's possibly five different factions by now, if not more.


    The same can be said about those who stick to OD&D, 1st Ed, or 2nd ed, or even 3rd ed. And while in that case they all support D&D, likewise ALL support Greyhawk in its many incarnations. While many of these ppl claim to play only one edition or one incarnation of D&D/ GH they still buy or at least reference future material or they wouldn't even know what they were talking about as comparisons, now would they?
    But alas, this is not an edition war, not a who's who among GH fans. Its a calling out to ALL of those fans, saying unless you want to forever be laid back in anonymity, then take a stand and do something about it. =)

    That division and bickering are best left to those who simply don't care for anything but "their" games. And before anyone thinks I am knocking them or trying to flame them, I am not, this is an open-ended statement. IF you are taking offense to it, then ask yourself why?

    Anyway, the choice is really yours. Argueing over it won't solve anything and will only prove to WOTC that the market isnt there or worth the time. =/ UGH ...
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 22, 2005 8:20 pm  

    MerricB wrote:
    Honestly, if you really want to get Greyhawk support from Wizards, you might consider joining the RPGA and reporting your regular home Greyhawk campaign through their database.

    As of last month, you can sanction homebrew adventures, and report which world you use - well, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Other.

    If Wizards notice a large number of homebrew Greyhawk campaigns, that'd be the best sign to them of fan support for the setting.

    Cheers!


    Hi again, Merric, Smile

    This is a not bad idea but neither is it perfect. The deck is presently stacked.

    Even with Living Greyhawk and the use of Greyhawk in 3rd Edition, it is hard to imagine that Greyhawk will win in a show of hands with the Realms, given the history of support for the various settings over the last 10 years, to include marketing, Dragon/Dungeon support, product releases, novels etc. It is not a level playing field and will most likely confirm what everyone already knows - more people play the Realms _right now_ than any other published setting.

    There is an entire point being missed. The question is not what setting is PRESENTLY the most popular; we know the answer to that one. The question is what other settings have the potential to be popular enough to make business sense. Seeing what settings people play NOW in no way answers the latter question.

    What you propose then is something of a "false" test likely to only confirm the "common knowledge" and if taken to far will actually HURT Greyhawk's chances because Greyhawk will PRESENTLY lose in any show of hands versus the Realms.

    Again, it is not a horrible idea. Neither is it likely a terific one either.
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    GVD
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    Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:52 pm  
    Re: Greyhawk and WOTC: A message needs to be sent, plz read.

    Duicarthan wrote:
    In the articles below address the views of Charles Dancey of WoTC


    Just a nitpick, but that's Charles Ryan. Ryan Dancey left WotC a couple years ago to found the company that runs/ran Living City.
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    Wed Mar 23, 2005 4:59 pm  

    As far as Charles' comments, I have to say I admit his candor, even if what he said isn't what we want to hear. I'd much rather hear the blunt truth than some vague banter that gets everyone's hopes up faslely.
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    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Thu Mar 24, 2005 11:48 am  

    You're correct there, chatdemon. i was in a hurry to write all that donw b/c I had to run. Its Charles Ryan, LOL.
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    Kobold Pinata

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    Thu Mar 24, 2005 1:54 pm  

    Man, in the fivish years since I 'discovered' Greyhawk and became a fan, I've seen this exact thread FIVE BILLION TIMES.

    Which means either that there are a LOT of new Greyhawkers who are repeating the process of discovery that every other Greyhawker has been through, ad nauseum, or we Greyhawkers like repeating ourselves... lots.

    Why? Seriously, I have to say that threads like this are entirely a waste of time and effort and resources. NOBODY CARES. Get over it. Devote your energies towards creating something TANGIBLE instead of whining that there isn't anything.

    One of the things that is said about Greyhawk is that it's a DM's world. By that, I mean that there are enough hooks for adventure, but not enough detail to necessarily bog you down to a particular style of play or plot. If you play in Greyhawk, you as a DM has to be prepared to do a lot of fill-in work to make it happen. It's this that MAKES Greyhawk popular.

    So... go out and MAKE something for Greyhawk instead of asking for it to be made for you. If you want everything on a silver platter, go play in Eberron or Forgotten Realms.
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    Thu Mar 24, 2005 2:26 pm  

    Delglath wrote:
    Seriously, I have to say that threads like this are entirely a waste of time and effort and resources. NOBODY CARES. Get over it. Devote your energies towards creating something TANGIBLE instead of whining that there isn't anything.


    I respectfully disagree with the Distinguished Gentleman from the DownUnderverse. Cool

    I cannot say "thank you, Duicarthan" strongly enough for starting this thread. Happy

    I was utterly unaware of the Wotc thread until Dui's referral. Charles Ryan has been forthcoming in the Wotc thread and candid about just where Greyhawk stands in Wotc's present business plan. While this is "bad news" or "disappointing" for Greyhawkers in the particulars of Mr. Ryan's posts, a strict focus on those particulars misses a larger point, I think.

    There will be no "persuading" of Mr. Ryan or Wotc on the Greyhawk issue at this time and "flamming" is less than unhelpful. Neither should be the focus of Greyhawker's participating in the thread, however.

    The point is to engage the question of Greyhawk. Keep'em interested. Keep'em thinking. Stay in the conversation. Build a dialog. Wait for opportunity down the road.

    Greyhawkers and Greyhawk have a unique ability to fascinate. Both are generally intelligent and articulate. This is not a zero-sum situation - now or never. This is a long term affair. Stay the course.

    I urge everyone to get involved in the thread Duicarthan notes in the initial post and more generally get involved in the larger folder there. Samwise put his finger on the heart of the matter in a post to the thread - Greyhawkers must, again, persuade Wotc that Greyhawk has potential that should be developed. No immediate miracles are in the offing but the effort is not wasted if we keep our heads in the game.

    Mr. Ryan has, in a way, given us an invitation to discussion. I think we should accept. I have every intention of doing so.

    I am not willing to trust to Living Greyhawk, the 3E default and Dungeon/Dragon slipping Greyhawk in being around forever. Opportunity is knocking. We could use more people participating in the Wotc thread and folder Duicarthan has helpfully identified.

    Let's go Greyhawk! Happy
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    GVD
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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 6:56 pm  

    I would like to chime in with this thought.

    When I was at GenCon last summer, I went to an open forum where the chief movers and shakers (editors and designers and writiers) were fielding questions from the faithful. When the question came up as the the most fulfilling work that they have done came up, I believe all but RA Salvatore said that it was Eberron. They talked about all these virtues and good feelings that they got.

    I expected this from Mr. Baker, the setting creator. However, to hear this answer from all the rest of the panel was a bit silly. It really seems as if it was a scripted answer decided on beforehand to fool the masses. it really was disappointing that none of these individuals actually talked about any older works that they did. If that was the truth, then it is the fault of Wizards of the Coast to have people in charge who havn't had major successes in the past. If it the case of lack of appropriate business knowledge to fill in positions such as chief editor or head designer, maybe mix in some paid college classes on business for successful writers.

    Unfortunitly, the problem is that fact that there are stockholders to please. So the ongoing trend of rehashing 3.0 material, and the rehashing of old supplements. They reinvent the wheel to sell you a bike.
    The sad point is that we all fall for it in one way or another.

    They KNOW you want it, and so they refuse to part with the license for somebody else to work on it. Watch in the next couple years, when sales are down and management is starting to feel the heat, we will get another supplement such as the LGG updating changes in the Living Greyhawk campaign, then they will promptly shelf it againg until the next drought hits.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:27 pm  

    Thanks GVD =)

    Both yours and Samwise's posts on WOTC boards have been very helpful. We at least have Mr. Ryan on his toes and thinking about his resposes. =)
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