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    Canonfire :: View topic - ToEE: Two Questions
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    ToEE: Two Questions
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 17, 2020 10:31 am  
    ToEE: Two Questions

    1) I'd like to create a scene where Kirilarien Allavesse (prior to her involvement in the Fellowship of the Torch) fights in the Battle of Emridy Meadows in CY 569 and returns home to Celene to tell her family and friends what happened there.

    How much do you think was commonly known to the troops & adventurers fighting on the side of Good? Would they have known of the involvement of Zuggtmoy and her binding in the Temple? Would they have known of the backing of Iuz? or Lolth?

    Were there demons on the battlefield? or would this have been seen as mainly a group of diverse humanoids & bandits unified by some vague evil religion centered on elements?

    2) The chronologies I've seen online seem to imply that the Temple was founded around 566 CY as a small chapel near Nulb, and over the next three years grows into this vast Temple complex that threatens the surrounding areas. Everyone agrees that the Battle of Emridy Meadows in CY 569 throws down the Temple.

    I've been looking at the Alternate Timeline in Oerth Journal 32: The History of the Wild Coast Region by Aaron Froke. In this, the temple begins as a disease-spreading cult in 550 CY, spreads rapidly, and begins construction of the temple in 553 CY. Threatened by attacks, the surrounding free cities and the Viscounty begin allying with each other against the growing threat, which reaches its greatest extent in CY 564. None of the surrounding powers are sufficiently strong to defeat the Temple on their own.

    The turning point comes when Furyondy joins the alliance in CY 568 and brings in the Lortmil dwarves and the elves of Celene. Only then is there sufficient power to challenge the Temple directly on the field of battle.

    Is it just me, or does the alternate timeline seem to make more sense? It allows the vast Temple enough time to reach the size it does, it makes it out as a much greater threat, and the forces of Good don't immediately team up to throw it down.

    Is there any reason the original timeline is superior to Aaron Froke's alternate one?
    Encyclopedia Greyhawkaniac

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    Thu Sep 17, 2020 12:47 pm  
    Re: ToEE: Two Questions

    edmundscott wrote:
    1) I'd like to create a scene where Kirilarien Allavesse (prior to her involvement in the Fellowship of the Torch) fights in the Battle of Emridy Meadows in CY 569 and returns home to Celene to tell her family and friends what happened there.

    How much do you think was commonly known to the troops & adventurers fighting on the side of Good? Would they have known of the involvement of Zuggtmoy and her binding in the Temple? Would they have known of the backing of Iuz? or Lolth?

    Were there demons on the battlefield? or would this have been seen as mainly a group of diverse humanoids & bandits unified by some vague evil religion centered on elements?

    2) The chronologies I've seen online seem to imply that the Temple was founded around 566 CY as a small chapel near Nulb, and over the next three years grows into this vast Temple complex that threatens the surrounding areas. Everyone agrees that the Battle of Emridy Meadows in CY 569 throws down the Temple.

    I've been looking at the Alternate Timeline in Oerth Journal 32: The History of the Wild Coast Region by Aaron Froke. In this, the temple begins as a disease-spreading cult in 550 CY, spreads rapidly, and begins construction of the temple in 553 CY. Threatened by attacks, the surrounding free cities and the Viscounty begin allying with each other against the growing threat, which reaches its greatest extent in CY 564. None of the surrounding powers are sufficiently strong to defeat the Temple on their own.

    The turning point comes when Furyondy joins the alliance in CY 568 and brings in the Lortmil dwarves and the elves of Celene. Only then is there sufficient power to challenge the Temple directly on the field of battle.

    Is it just me, or does the alternate timeline seem to make more sense? It allows the vast Temple enough time to reach the size it does, it makes it out as a much greater threat, and the forces of Good don't immediately team up to throw it down.

    Is there any reason the original timeline is superior to Aaron Froke's alternate one?


    1) Lolth id say no. In 569cy Id have Lolth as unknown among the proles and plebs. ZuggZugg Id say it would depend on the campaign but Iuz as a national power should be known enough to frighten the unwashed masses throughout the Flanaess.

    2) 3 years, the Temple could be raised with magical help. In my campaign the Temple rebuilds itself and its core is somethiing older than mankind, but its part of my cthulhuhawk so Id say either of your scenarios would work for you
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 17, 2020 3:51 pm  

    I agree that Iuz would be well known as a national power in CY 569 (though I think he'd been missing for a long time at that point, imprisoned in Castle Greyhawk, maybe more of a legend than a threat . . . ? I can't remember what year he got released); what I'm wondering is if the force that smashed the Temple knew for sure that Iuz had co-sponsored it. Did they think they were fighting a local cult w/ humanoid troops that worshipped elemental powers? or was it known that Iuz and/or Zuggtmoy were behind the whole thing?

    With Zuggtmoy, I guess I'm curious if her imprisonment was known to the common soldiers on the ground. Probably it was accomplished by a small team of elites (i.e. adventurer types), but when they succeeded was there a big celebration among all of the common troops that she was imprisoned there; or was it rather a super-secret mission maybe only known to Thrommel, Serten, and the like, and the adventurers who accomplished it sworn to silence afterward?
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:40 pm  

    edmundscott wrote:

    Is there any reason the original timeline is superior to Aaron Froke's alternate one?


    The longer timeline seems better to me.

    edmundscott wrote:
    I agree that Iuz would be well known as a national power in CY 569 (though I think he'd been missing for a long time at that point, imprisoned in Castle Greyhawk, maybe more of a legend than a threat . . . ? I can't remember what year he got released)


    Iuz wasn't released from Zagyg's Godtrap until 570 CY.

    Quote:
    what I'm wondering is if the force that smashed the Temple knew for sure that Iuz had co-sponsored it.


    Iuz's role as described in T1-4 can't possibly be true. T1-4 makes it clear that Iuz was free and ruling a nation at the time of the temple's construction, so either the Temple's genesis had to be prior to Iuz's imprisonment in 505 CY, or Iuz wasn't involved with the Temple of Elemental Evil at all.

    Here are the exact quotes:

    Temple of Elemental Evil wrote:
    At this crucial juncture, luz himself requested an audience with Zuggtmoy.


    Right away, the idea that Iuz was imprisoned at the time makes this unlikely. If the imprisoned demigods could communicate with the outside world, it seems impossible that none of them were able to summon rescuers. It would also make the "false Iuzes" said to have ruled Iuz's domain in his absence much less likely if the true Iuz could speak to his servants from his cage and tell them they were being led by imposters. Finally, it just makes Zagyg's prison less impressive if the prisoners could make calls to the outside. In WGR1, the obelisk beneath Castle Greyhawk is said to blanket the area in a cloak through which deities, except for Boccob, cannot see, and prevented the demigods from calling upon other divine aid.

    Quote:
    The Old One, long ruling a realm of his own, perceived the Temple of Elemental Evil and Zuggtmoy as tools to be used for his own ends. Help the demoness and her Temple to grow, aid their ravaging of the lands around, and they would surely draw down the hosts of Good from Veluna, Furyondy,and everywhere else nearby. This drew foes away from his own border immediately, and at the very worst weakened them to some degree. If Good triumphed, the luz would not be harmed, for the Old One could retire to Dorakaa, none the worse for having spent time and effort helping Zuggtmoy. If the battle were a draw, then luz could move his own armies down to Furyondy to put the hosts of Good in a vise of irresistible Evil.


    This all sounds like sound reasoning, but only if Iuz is currently ruling a realm. If he's been imprisoned beneath a castle for most of a century, drawing "foes away from his own border" seems like less of a consideration for him.

    Quote:
    If the Temple triumphed, then he could call upon Zuggtmoy to repay his aid and make sure that luz, not the Horned Society, benefited most from the territorial acquisitions in Furyondy. Also, a strong Chaotic Evil ally against the growing power of the Horned Society could be most useful.


    The Horned Society only became a rival to Iuz after his freedom. Would he even know about it when he was imprisoned?

    Quote:
    Zuggtmoy, in turn, saw the advantage of having luz's magic to aid her in building her fortress and expanding her domain in the Flanaess.


    What magic? He's in prison!

    Quote:
    Having just learned of the sharp check dealt to Lolth in her plans to wreak Evil, the Lady of Fungi agreed to accept luz as an (almost) equal in the Temple.


    This is apparently a reference to the conclusion of Q1, but no timeline has Q1 happening prior to 576 CY. But the Temple was defeated in 569 CY.

    Quote:
    She saw him as an excellent weapon, especially useful against the Horned Society once she had absorbed most of Veluna and Furyondy. She would then encourage luz to crush the might of the Society,


    If he could do all this from prison, what was the point of imprisoning him?

    Quote:
    And so the alliance formed, and actually worked, but saved not the Temple. Zuggtmoy was bound in its dungeons, but luz remained free (just as he had planned).


    How did he "remain free" if he wasn't currently free?

    My opinion is that the history in T1-4 is a mess and parts of it should just be ignored. Iuz had nothing to do with the construction of the Temple of Elemental Evil. I don't think any mention of Iuz can be salvaged here except for the idea that after Zuggtmoy's imprisonment, Iuz planned to attempt to free her.

    edmundscott wrote:
    With Zuggtmoy, I guess I'm curious if her imprisonment was known to the common soldiers on the ground.


    I suppose common knowledge of where Zuggtmoy was might attract villainous types who might attempt to free her, but I imagine common soldiers were at least assured the demoness was no longer a threat.

    Quote:
    Probably it was accomplished by a small team of elites (i.e. adventurer types)


    T1-4 said the magicks wrought to bind Zuggtmoy "involved great wizards, high priests, and deities." The cleric Serten died at Emridy Meadows, so he probably played no part in the binding of Zuggtmoy, and in any case had no need to be sworn to secrecy about it.

    Mike Bridges' account of the battle simply has it that the mages and clerics who bound Zuggtmoy worked for Thrommel, which is reasonable. In the article on the Battle of Emridy Meadows in Dungeon #221, Zuggtmoy was imprisoned with the aid of a magical tome called Spiral of Darkness: A Demon Binder's Guide to the Abyss. There's no indication in that article that Zuggtmoy's imprisonment was kept secret, although her involvement with the Temple was secret prior to the battle.

    I don't think demons were a major factor in the battle, but Dungeon #221 claims Serten was struck down by a demon "in the thick of battle," prior to Zuggtmoy's binding.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 18, 2020 7:05 am  

    Would it all work if the original "Iuz" involved was actually the final false Iuz ruling the realm in his absence, and that this individual was powerful enough a conjurer &/or illusionist to fool Zuggtmoy?

    Then when the real Iuz is freed, he destroys the imposter and decides to maintain the alliance and keep involved as the Temple rebuilds.

    Both the false Iuz and the real Iuz would have plenty of motivation for this.
    CF Admin

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    Fri Sep 18, 2020 8:43 am  

    Although I recall one of my PCs survived fighting a certain giant toad (over thirty years ago—ouch), the Temple is outside of my Greyhawk foci, so it's always interesting to read about the Temple and particularly exciting in light of the forthcoming (re)publication by Goodman Games.

    Based on what you've discussed in this thread, and my dim memories of past discussions of the subject, I wonder who the false Iuzes were and don't recall reading descriptions of any of them. (I also wonder how any of the Boneheart members described in Iuz the Evil related to any of these false Iuzes.)

    With the CY 569 Battle of Emridy Meadows and the CY 570 release of Iuz seeming like the most important canon dates, Rip's conclusion feels compelling:
    rasgon wrote:
    My opinion is that the history in T1-4 is a mess and parts of it should just be ignored. Iuz had nothing to do with the construction of the Temple of Elemental Evil. I don't think any mention of Iuz can be salvaged here except for the idea that after Zuggtmoy's imprisonment, Iuz planned to attempt to free her.

    However, Edmund's suggestion that the final false Iuz might have fooled Zuggtmoy seems like a neat way to resolve the discrepancy although it contributes to a sense that Zuggtmoy is incompetent or unlucky.
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 18, 2020 9:04 am  

    There was an earlier thread on the Iuz imposters here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=5625
    Novice

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    Tue Sep 22, 2020 3:20 pm  

    I don’t think the common soldiers would know what happened inside the temple, but rumors would certainly fly through an army and there would probably be as many versions of the story as there were soldiers who survived the battle.

    My first character’s history included being a common foot soldier at Emridy Meadows. He knew nothing about the Temple or what happened except a vague understanding that a great evil was threatening the area. He happily returned to his home believing he had done his part to protect his home, until 7 years later rumors of growing evil started to circulate again, when he was roped into helping a scratch team of adventurers investigate..

    I agree the history of the temple is a mess. A good example (as well as a result) of Gygax’s caution never to fill in too many details in your campaign until you have to.
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2020 6:43 pm  

    According to the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 62, Iuz's priesthood had eliminated their rivals in Dorakaa and exterminated independent lords in the next half-century after the founding of the Horned Society in 513 CY, so there probably shouldn't be any pretender Iuz by 563 CY. I suppose you could say the last one was killed or exiled by Iuz's priesthood in 563 CY, give or take a few years, although this could have happened earlier.

    I doubt anyone with the temerity to impersonate Iuz himself would have been accepted into the Boneheart, though it seems likely that Patch, the high priest of Iuz who died in the Greyhawk Wars, might have already led his priesthood during Iuz's incarceration. It's just as likely that whoever had the misfortune of trying to control Iuz's priesthood without Iuz's direct imput was immediately killed and replaced with a less independent servant, however.

    It seems possible that Patch or another priest might have sought an alliance with Zuggtmoy in Iuz's name.

    Probably the simplest solution is to say Iuz was released a little earlier, in 569 CY, and he immediately sought an alliance with Zuggtmoy to help him take back his lost lands. With his priesthood already in control of Dorakaa, this probably wouldn't have been too difficult, but some aid against enemies in the Horned Society and elsewhere who might have immediately mobilized after Iuz's return was confirmed wouldn't have been unwelcome. He wouldn't have been around when the Temple was first built, but the reasoning for their alliance still stands, and it allows them both to be free at the same time.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2020 11:32 am  

    I'd probably have it that Zuggtmoy and Iuz came to an agreement about the Cult of Elemental Evil prior to Iuz's imprisonment. Then, Zagig imprisoned Iuz, and Zuggtmoy puts it aside.

    In the 550/560s, Zuggtmoy, feeling stymied in her other attempts to gain power, decides to put the Cult of Elemental Evil into action. She is able to gain the assistance of Iuz's priesthood on providing proof that this was an agreement with their god. This involves some magical help in creating the Temple so quickly.

    The Battle of Emridy Meadows occurs, and Zuggtmoy is imprisoned in the Temple. I'd have her involvement and imprisonment mostly kept secret except by a few in the know.

    Iuz is freed. Since Zuggtmoy has his soul object, he decides that he has to attempt to free her and begins to reform the Cult of Elemental Evil.

    Lolth is made aware of these activities and inserts a few of her agents into the Cult, notably Lareth. This is to keep an eye on her rival's plans and to see if she can use it for her own gain.
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