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    Canonfire :: View topic - Guilds
    Canonfire Forum Index -> Gran March Gazetteer
    Guilds
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:47 pm  
    Guilds

    What guilds are there in GM. WHat is there influence level?

    Where are their headquarters?

    I have a sheet from a D20 supplment AEG's Guilds book that may be of use, but before i send that around, I would like some input.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 11, 2004
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    From: Cypress, CA

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    Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:34 pm  

    I'm not sure of the exact title of this, but what about a horse-breeder's guild? GM loves the cavalry, and by extension horses, so I could see some sort of seal of approval on horses.

    Probably nothing as chaotic as the process for registering purebred dogs. And something akin to "USDA Grade A" is... disturbing. But a guild that monitors breeder quality and quantity could develop in GM. Something along the lines of Consumer Reports' reviews of automobiles.

    I think that would definitely add flavor to the campaign. "This is Lightning. She's from the Brigham Stables, rated five stars by the Gran March Equestrian Guild since 552CY." A rating system would also be easy to translate into prices; players could buy a higher quality mount based on the GMEG rating.

    Breeders would pay guild dues, as doing so would produce additional revenue if the guild recommends their stables. And breeders who did not appear on the GMEG rosters could be viewed as not-quite reputable. Another reason to pay guild dues; it finances "inspectors" to visit your stables, keeping you on the rosters. Dropping off the GMEG's rosters could be akin to being blacklisted.

    And serious horse buyers would have to purchase the GMEG annual roster. For a modest fee, of course...

    I think GM is the right size and mentality for a guild like this. In a larger nation, the guild would be too decentralized to have any meaning. In a less structured nation, the "seal of approval" or rating wouldn't carry any weight.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 19, 2004
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    Sun Mar 20, 2005 10:57 am  

    Here is a list of Guilds from the Players Guild to Greyhawk. These are the ones it says are in Greyhawk City.
    Guild of Apothecaries and Herbalists
    Guild of Architects and Stonemasons
    Guild of Assassins
    Guild of Bakers, Cooks and Millerstt
    Guild of Barbers and Dentists
    Union of Beggars
    United Guild of Blacksmiths, Armorers, Shieldmakers and Ironworkers
    Guild of Butchers
    Guild of Carpenters, Furniture makers and Barrel makers?
    Guild of Cartographers
    Guild of Clothworkers
    Union of Dockers and Wharfmen
    Alliance of Drovers, Teamsters and Overland Freighters
    Guild of Embalmers and Gravediggers
    Guild of Gladiators, Wrestlers and Professional Combatants"
    Guild of Goldsmiths and Silversmiths?
    Union of Couriers and Messengers**
    Association of Rafters, Freighters and Bargemen of the Selintan**
    Guild of Jewelers and Gemcutters
    Union of Laborers
    Guild of Lamplighters
    Guild of Lawyers, Scribes and Accountants
    Guild of Leatherworkers and Tanners
    Guild of Locksmths**
    Union of Lumbermen and Woodcutters**
    Guild of Mercenaries
    Union of Merchants and Traders
    Allied Brotherhood of Miners and quarrier
    Guild of Mintworkers
    Union of Moneychangers and Pawnbrokers
    Guild of Nightwatchmen
    Guild of Ostlers and Brewers
    Guild of Performing Artistes
    Union of Sages and Academics
    Union of Sewermen and Streetdeanem
    Federation of Smiths of Pragmatic Metals and Alloys
    Guild of Thieves'
    Guild of Translators
    Guild of Weaponsmithsf
    Guild of Wizards

    I will post a list of Guilds from CSotIO.
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:53 am  
    Our Guilds

    Ivor, that is very useful as a base, though I think we will have fewer guilds being less of a commercial center than the City of Greyhawk. Here are the ones that I think most useful, but we need to work on the names.

    Union of Cloth Merchants and Traders
    Guild of Dyers, Apothecaries and Herbalists
    Guild of Architects and Stonemasons
    Guild of Blacksmiths, Armorers, Shieldmakers and Ironworkers
    Guild of Carpenters, Furniture makers and Barrel makers?
    Guild of Cartographers - Headed By the Esteemed Yabusama
    Alliance of Drovers, Teamsters and Overland Freighters
    Guild of Goldsmiths and Silversmiths
    Association of Rafters, Freighters and Bargemen
    Guild of Leatherworkers and Tanners
    Union of Lumbermen and Woodcutters
    Guild of Vintners and Brewers
    Union of Sages and Academics
    Guild of Weaponsmiths

    I think GM would really like the Idea of Guilds as they are such an orderly people.

    Thoughts?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:57 pm  

    I agree totally. I think the list is too long and there may be one we need to change or disregard. Culturalize the names but like Hammar keep it simple.
    I just happen to see your post at the same time I was reading the PGtGH.
    I will also post a another list with the guild listed in the City State of the Overlord which will give more ideas but will still need to be changed. to Gran march the ones chosen.
    BTW City State of the Overlord is a great resource for anyone building a city.
    No aqeducts mind you Happy
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:23 pm  

    Depending on how Anced wants to deal with the discussions we have been having regarding Shiboleth over on the city names forum, I think it would be good to have a small Bakune guild vertically integrated to deal with the red silk.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:16 pm  

    Here is another list of guilds which you have Anced in the A Magical Medieval City Guide and I used to create the break down of occupations. I think I sent you that spread sheet. If anyone else want is I can sent it to them. In medieval times each of these would have some form of a guild.
    Architect
    Engineer
    Armour
    Locksmith
    Artists
    Painters
    Satirists
    Sculptors
    Writers
    Bakers
    Pastry Makers
    Bookbinders
    Booksellers
    Paper/Parchmentmakers
    Bowyers & Fletchers
    Brewers
    Distillers
    Vintner
    Bathers
    Brothel Keepers
    Carpenters
    Plasterers
    Roofers
    Butchers
    Bellmakers
    Engravers
    Goldsmiths
    Silversmiths
    Chandlers
    Soapmakers
    Bricklayers
    Masons
    Potters
    Tilers
    Copyists
    Illuminators
    Girdlers
    Glove Makers
    Mercers
    Perfumer
    Purse Makers
    Tailors
    Vestment Makers
    Cobblers
    Leatherworkers
    Bleachers
    Drapers
    Dye Makers
    Fullers
    Rug Makers
    Weavers
    Bankers
    Moneychangers
    Pawnbroker
    Tax Collectors
    Fishers
    Fishmongers
    Blacksmiths
    Buckle Makers
    Cutlers
    Scabbard Makers
    Weaponsmiths, Master
    Weaponsmiths
    Furriers
    Glass Makers
    Glaziers
    Harness Makers
    Saddlers and Spurriers
    Inn Keepers
    Restauranteurs
    Tavern Keepers
    Goldsmiths
    Jewelers
    Silversmiths
    Launderers
    Alchemists
    Astrologers
    Magic Merchants
    Potionmakers
    Cartographers
    Navigators/Pathfinders
    Naval Outfitters
    Rope Makers
    Barbers
    Dentists
    Doctors, Unlicensed
    Herbalists
    Midwives
    Beer Merchants
    Booksellers
    Clothiers, Used
    Dairy sellers
    Flowersellers
    Grain Merchants
    Grocers
    Haberdashers
    Hay Merchants
    Livestock merchants
    Magic Merchants
    Millers
    Perfumer
    Religious Souvenir Sellers
    Slavers
    Spice Merchants
    Tobacco merchants
    Wine Merchants
    Woodsellers
    Wool Merchants
    Acrobats, Tumblers
    Instrument Makers
    Jesters
    Jongleurs
    Minstrels
    Storytellers
    Advocates (lawyers)
    Doctors, Licensed
    Judges
    Librarians
    Professors
    Teachers
    Scholastic Historians
    Sage/scholar
    Shipmakers
    Leatherworkers
    Skinners
    Tanners
    Taxidermists
    Grooms
    Clock Makers
    Inventors
    Toymakers
    Watercarriers
    Wheelwrights
    Basket Makers
    Furniture Makers
    Furniture Makers
    Woodcarvers
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 19, 2004
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    Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:22 pm  

    Quote:
    I think it would be good to have a small Bakune guild vertically integrated to deal with the red silk.


    Wolfshire I think this is a good idea. In Hookhill I have a Bazaar ground which allows foreign Merchants and even Baklunish merchants with proper papers to show their more exotic wares then the average market would have. The Bazaars coincide with Military games and festivals.
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    Master Greytalker

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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:04 am  
    History

    Due to the history of the Knights and the Baklunish, I would think it unlikely that Bakluni merchants will get papers, rather, I see Hookhill getting bypassed all togeather and either Shiboleth merchants exporting directly to the West, or having a proxy market in Thornward.

    For the Shiboleth Red Silk, there are several teleportation events each year, to avoid the risk of the long journey to Zeif. This is a magic world after all, and that is a long way to take such a delicate cargo.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Mar 29, 2005 7:06 am  
    Guilds

    I think we need to identify a number of Guilds, and not just the jazzy ones, and detail them. Lets leave the rest simply in list form.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:25 am  

    Quote:
    Due to the history of the Knights and the Baklunish, I would think it unlikely that Bakluni merchants will get papers, rather, I see Hookhill getting bypassed all togeather and either Shiboleth merchants exporting directly to the West, or having a proxy market in Thornward.


    Though I agree that the Baklunish are not well like by the KoW and many of GM and despite this climate, as you have suggested in your population distribution, there are still Baklunish in GM so I am suggesting that Baklunish can have a trading guild and small one. After all merchants are merchants and if someone has a desired product then that over rides political concerns (China in our world).

    Hookhill is the Capital of Gran March. It is that alone that Shiboleth nobles will want to show off their fine cloth and clothes to upstage the other nobles. Second a number of nobles and representative of other lands would be going to Hookhill on business with the Government. I believe that the merchants of the silk trade would want to tap into that market.
    Thornward would be a major market for many Gran March merchants in Gran March district.

    Third thing is Lord Lyndus the head of GM's information system (spies).
    He wants Baklunish trading guild so he can plant spies into the groups and learn about what going in Ket and other Western lands. Since he has the ear of the Commandant he has convinced him to allow Baklunish traders so he could plant spies within them. They would have to have papers and be thoroughly questioned by Zilchus inquisitors. Lord Lyndus expects these traders to be poorly treated especially by the Knights and does nothing to change this to maintain the spies secrecy. Because they would travel to Hookhill and Shiboleth it would allow the spies to hand off information more easily.
    Lord Lyndus is a GM nationalist and expansionist and he cares more about Gran March than he does about Knights or even Nobles. His job is a newly created by Magnus Vrianian to keep the surprise attack that happen to Geoff and Bissel from happen again and to protect GM for internal issues as well. This has only been in place since CY 586 and is slowly growing

    This would also give the DM using our material another avenue to play out, special for players who may want to play a spy roll.

    What do you think?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:53 am  

    AM- Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:56 am in The ARMY: “They are LAWFUL good or Neutral, … Marchers are people of pomp and circumstance ... they love a parade... honor their ancestors... herald their leaders”

    So a bunch of militaristic nationalists are going to be goose stepping about shouting at pseudo-semites “Show me your papers!” and “Heil Commandant!”

    Do the silk traders have to openly wear a patch of the Spindle of Istus? That seems to fit.

    I don’t think you can or should get around GH or GM being racist, but there should be something to counter it and tip the balance back in the direction of the good side of lawful. But who in GM is going to speak up for the poor mistreated Balkuni?
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:02 pm  
    Wolfsire

    Well, racism is the cross that the KoW seem to bear, and even before them, the Knights of the March. Rather than racism, though, it seems to be a simple general seething anger they aim at their "enemy," after all, the Flan were the target before the Bakluni.

    As to who is the counter? I suggest the same counter weight that exists in our own society... the Army... It is far bigger, and IMO, has a far more indelible affect on the social mores of GM than the KoW. The difference, for example, between say public schools and celebrities.

    Most people think the Knights (read celebrities) influence our youth, and they do to some extent. However, the time spent in the Army (public schools) is far more influential, if subtle. A school may yield doctors and lawyers, or bums and hoodlums. They may all wear sports jerseys and listen to Madonna, but the school was the influence that made the most difference.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:21 pm  

    You raise some good points and I want to dress them and make myself more clear.

    Quote:
    So a bunch of militaristic nationalists are going to be goose stepping about shouting at pseudo-Semites “Show me your papers!” and “Heil Commandant!”


    No The nationalist are not a but of Fascist. Remember that Keoland is "allowing" nobles to vote for their commandant. Gran March is not wholly free of Keoland influence though it is weakening. Anced and I have both agree that there is a growing nationalist feeling in Gran March. Just because your are nationalist does not make you a Goose stepper. Papers would be checked at borders and city gates only.

    Lord Lyndus is NG and, to make myself clear, the reason he would want the Baklunish guild is so he could have some willing Baklunish of GM more easily infiltrate the those of Ket etc. Lord Lyndus has asked that there be allowed Baklunish traders. These would be from Ket, Zeif and other western nations again so the GM Baklunish can more easily infiltrate. He is himself is not racist but cannot cut anyone any slack as it may blow their cover.
    These Baklunish Traders would have to have papers not GM resident Baklunish and of course the spies would have too as well.
    Which is more lenient than the US is presently who has those from "questionable counties" have to have special identification papers even if they are citizen of an not questionable country such as Canada.

    Yes not all the people of GM are racist but is canon that there is a " near racist" dislike of westerlings by the Watch because they believe they worship the Old one in secret (p 165 LGG I believe). Often when there is a war the home population is whipped into a fervor against the enemy and conversely often it is the soldiers that fight them that have a better idea who the enemy really is as they see that they have similar attributes as themselves. So the GM populace would have some resentment of the Ketties and any who look like them. Not unlike the racial profiling going on today.

    In my campaign Lord Lyndus the Knights of Dispatch are specifically all non-racist. I think it important that the players be giving the opportunity to challenge this racism as well.

    D&D is full of inherent racism. Orc, Goblins. Gnolls and Hobgoblins are all evil and bad. Drow are Bad. Dwarves do not like Elves and so on. In my campaign I also challenge these believes as well as the idea just because some attacks you should you kill them?
    Just because one is good, of lawful does not mean you cannot have misconceptions about things resulting prejudice. Also the world of D&D has tended to be black and white. I want and I believe Anced as well, want to add more grey.

    I think the papers are more like passports. A cloth patch is more like what the Nazi did to the Jews because papers were not obvious enough.

    I think your points are good about racism are good and it needs to challenged all the times. I am sorry that I was not more clear about Lord Lyndus and his motives. He is not a hawk. He is an expansionist because he believe it would be good if Hochoch became part of Gran March he is not looking to conquer the Sheldomar Valley. He concerned about anything that would cause the region and Gran March to become unstable. He believes it is his duty to protect all the people of Gran March including the Baklunish.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Apr 01, 2005 9:32 am  

    I was thinking thing were the way you both addressed them, but the Fascist imagery was just too vivid to pass up. I still think it is, but that it has to be carefully managed because you don’t want the good guys looking like the bad guys, except a little bit every now and then. Not addressing it could have that effect because all the elements are there in this setting. IMO, that is how to get the grey in the hawk.

    While I think AM is correct from a sociological perspective, I would not want to rely on that entirely to avoid the imagery. In addition to other reasons, because socialization will not be 100% effective, particularly if it is undermined by the corrupting effects of the Stain of Vecna. But most importantly, because it might make for a missed opportunity to do as IvorMac suggests, challenge the PC’s with racism. Perhaps socialization can somehow be made manifest in the campaign.

    I think the description IvorMac quoted is fairly accurate, including the goose stepping or some other form of pompous parading, which is why a first quoted AM. But sticking all those buzz words together as I did can clearly be misleading. I would not want to do that until the time was right. The patch will reinforce the Fascist image and I think the Spindle really does really work for that in this setting.

    So what to do? I do not know if you were planning on doing this for Gazetteer, but I think a plot line or adventure lead section would be good.

    There could an old nobility Suel KotW faction LN(E) leaning in the direction of Fascism that has started the Spindle patch, but only only in Shiboleth where there is the greatest concentration of Bakluni. They have a reason - too many Bakluni have been wandering out the their quarter (the ghetto) and they all look the same, but do not have the same right to be out and about as the silk/die Guild members.

    Maybe a PC is the subject of the racism, maybe just a witness. Perhaps the PCs have been tasked by Lord Lyndus with countering the extremism without making it too obvious because it is hurting his network, not because it is morally wrong.

    Different NPCs and groups could be introduced as variant foils to underline the complexity of the issues where nobody is completely good or evil. How would a Flan see it (At least they are not picking on me)? Army grunts (that is a little rough, but still you have to watch out for those people)? Cotton merchants? (Can’t breath … ;-) )? Clerics of Zilchus/Inessa (I missed out on a deal)?

    And again I ask, because I don’t know, who is going to speak up for the poor mistreated Bakluni? The PCs? If it is only the Paladin of Al’Akbar, that in itself will be a sad commentary on the morals of the March. Perhaps, that is a comment that should be made.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 03, 2005 2:51 pm  

    Yes I too would completely avoid the Fascist idea in any form. It is not how I see Gran March at all. It is a lawful nation overall with good tendencies.
    I also think that we are falling victim to our own stereotype here when we suggest that the Baklunish are interested in or are proprietors of Silk. The Rushmoors and Madder silk worm would have been the since the time of the Flan and likely they were the first to develop the silk and kept it a guild secret as to it development. With the destruction of Fleeth that information died too. Then as Anced has suggested that a Baklunish merchant brought it back.
    I would suggest thought that the Baklunish themselves could not have had a silk industry in their present homelands given its latitude and climate is that of Northern Montana of the steppes of Russian but they could have had that industry prior to the Invoked Devastation. Thus their interest and desire to find silk again but silk in not necessarily practical in such a climate. I also refer to the greytalk discussion that Baklunish are not Arabs. I think this is an important distinction. I am suggesting that silk is an ancient Flan art that has only recently been rediscovered. The Suel who are, as the Maure Castle adventure in Dungeon #112 as suggest, highly interested in fine cloth and tapestry and would be eager to learn the art of silk making and are likely the drivers for the industry in the Sheldomar Valley as a whole.

    Also Anced has suggested that there 3000 Baklunish in all of Gran March which is about 1% of the population which is a very small amount so lets let the idea of a Baklunish guild die. As long as the Baklunish are contributing to GM society, i.e. their sons become soldiers, that the general populace well tolerate their presence. There will always be those who will not like their presence, as there are those who would not like elves of dwarfs’ presence(who is their champions?). I this feel that it normal to expect some restrictions on merchants from a nations you just had a war. Lord Lyndus has ask that Ket, Zeif, Ekbir and Tusmit caravans to be allowed enter so he can have his volunteer Baklunish spies to join these caravans and spy on the these nations to ensure that the surprise attack from Ket or others cannot happen again. The need for paper would be to travel within Bissell GM and other places. This would be compromise with the Knights, as they would not like their enemy travelling in their lands. Remember that Bissel northern most lands are still controlled by Ket and Thornward is a divided city. So Knight are not happy about the Baklunish caravans more because of their military interests than that of racism at this point.
    Thornward would be where travel papers would be issued. Thornward is a city of high political intergue.
    As to pomp and ceremony I would liken GM to England with its enjoyment of such things without the negative connotations.

    Quote:
    And again I ask, because I don’t know, who is going to speak up for the poor mistreated Bakluni? The PCs? If it is only the Paladin of Al’Akbar, that in itself will be a sad commentary on the morals of the March. Perhaps, that is a comment that should be made.


    As to the poor mistreated Bakluni I think you may be over stating the issue.
    Who is the Champion of the Suel, the Oeridian, the Rhenee, the Dwarves the Elves the Orc the Hobgoblins and on and on the list could go.
    The comment is the answer to this question "What happens when the Paladin of Al’Akbar and the Paladin of Hieroneous meet Question "
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    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:01 am  
    SImple

    I am going to ask that this be the last post from anyone on the subject of Racism and Goosestepping. This is a thread about Guilds.

    That has been covered ad nauseum in other threads on this site and I will answer this now as I answered it then. Any implication that I or any other writer here is racist because they do not run to the defense of supposed slights to some real world group are absurd, and tell more about those who raise the issues. Regardless, this is a forum about a game, and a game set in an imperfect world.

    The Suel have a history as presented in Canon which indicates that they were racists. This was several thousand years ago. Since that time they have founded what is possibly the most racially harmonious kingdom in the Flaness, Keoland. Both are true in Canon.

    Gran March was founded as a buffer zone, first against the Flan of Vecna, then as a buffer against the Baklunish. The Baklunish have invaded in the past, and invaded recently. The hatred of them is both recent and real in Bissell and to all those who lost sons and daughters in the fight to expell them. I have no intention of "cleansing," this out of the project.

    This project was started by Ivor and myself to create a fun, workable campaign setting, in the Flaness, that new and old DMs alike could use. There has been, nor will there be, any attempt to create a resemblance to the Fascists, the Communists, or any other real world group.

    As to commentary on the Morals of the March... It is a bad time to be a Baklunish sympathizer... allying one self with Iuz tends to make you unpopular.

    This is not the place for commentary about real world issues. I understand that previous authors have utilized descriptions reminiscent of the Nazis. I will not apologize for it nor continue it. Now, let us get back to the March.
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    Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:10 am  

    Thanks for that Anced
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