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    Canonfire :: View topic - Where is the residence of Vecna ?
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    Where is the residence of Vecna ?
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:06 pm  
    Where is the residence of Vecna ?

    I searched the internet unsuccessfully.

    After these two informations :

    "When Vecna was ejected from Sigil by a party of adventurers and the Lady of Pain, Iuz was freed and Vecna returned to Oerth greatly reduced in power, though still a lesser god."

    "In the events of the Living Greyhawk campaign setting, Vecna's machinations allowed him to reappear on the prime material plane and retake his place in the Oerth pantheon. "

    I don't know the events of LG. So :

    Where is the residence of Vecna ? He is now a lesser god, NE.

    PMP ? ancient kingdom of Vecna ?

    Shadowfell ?

    Outer Plane ? Hades ?

    Thank you for your suggestions

    Jacques
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    Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:19 pm  

    The true Citadel Cavitius remained on the border between Negative Energy Plane and the Quasi-elemental plane of Ash.

    Since Vecna's escape from the Demiplane of Dread in 591 CY, he has been said to dwell in various citadels hidden on the Prime Material Plane. The current ruler of Citadel Cavitius, if any, is unknown.

    https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/Citadel_Cavitius

    I can't find any info on his current whereabouts otherwise. I would assume maybe he returned there to regroup and scheme anew.

    BTW: I hate the idea that he would be anything greater than a demi-god. In the Tomb of Annihilation, Accerek wants to create a god. Maybe his old mentor is the intended subject. Meh.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 21, 2022 5:43 pm  

    Skech wrote:
    Since Vecna's escape from the Demiplane of Dread in 591 CY, he has been said to dwell in various citadels hidden on the Prime Material Plane.


    3rd edition's Deities & Demigods gives his home plane as the Material Plane (page 94).

    Complete Divine notes (page 126) that the soul of one dedicated to Vecna "appears in some far-off spot on the Material Plane." On page 129, this is detailed further: "The only souls who have the Material Plane as their final destination are worshipers of Fharlanghn and Vecna. Souls devoted to Fharlanghn are often stationed at crossroads and public-houses where they contentedly watch the ebb and flow of the living traveling from place to place. After death, the souls of Vecna’s worshipers make their way to one of his many secret citadels. Some souls silently watch the machinations of Vecna’s minions, while it is said that Vecna trades some souls like currency to other dark gods and fiends in exchange for power."

    Quote:
    The current ruler of Citadel Cavitius, if any, is unknown.


    The Inner Planes, page 112: "Only a fool would enter this place [Citadel Cavitius], given its history. For one thing, there're bound to be ghosts, spectres, and other incorporeal creatures lurking within. Chant is, though, that some very powerful spirit has come to power in this place. Far more powerful than other ghosts, it supposedly has somehow managed to tap directly into the power of the Negative Energy Plane. Whether this creature has ties to Vecna, or even knows what has become of that dread lich, is unknown. Maybe it's got ties to Acererak, another old lich from Oerth who's said to be looking for a major connection with the Negative Energy Plane. You ask me, it sounds like that Oerth world's full of liches. You won't catch me there!"
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:36 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Skech wrote:
    Since Vecna's escape from the Demiplane of Dread in 591 CY, he has been said to dwell in various citadels hidden on the Prime Material Plane.


    3rd edition's Deities & Demigods gives his home plane as the Material Plane (page 94).

    Complete Divine notes (page 126) that the soul of one dedicated to Vecna "appears in some far-off spot on the Material Plane." On page 129, this is detailed further: "The only souls who have the Material Plane as their final destination are worshipers of Fharlanghn and Vecna. Souls devoted to Fharlanghn are often stationed at crossroads and public-houses where they contentedly watch the ebb and flow of the living traveling from place to place. After death, the souls of Vecna’s worshipers make their way to one of his many secret citadels. Some souls silently watch the machinations of Vecna’s minions, while it is said that Vecna trades some souls like currency to other dark gods and fiends in exchange for power."

    Quote:
    The current ruler of Citadel Cavitius, if any, is unknown.


    The Inner Planes, page 112: "Only a fool would enter this place [Citadel Cavitius], given its history. For one thing, there're bound to be ghosts, spectres, and other incorporeal creatures lurking within. Chant is, though, that some very powerful spirit has come to power in this place. Far more powerful than other ghosts, it supposedly has somehow managed to tap directly into the power of the Negative Energy Plane. Whether this creature has ties to Vecna, or even knows what has become of that dread lich, is unknown. Maybe it's got ties to Acererak, another old lich from Oerth who's said to be looking for a major connection with the Negative Energy Plane. You ask me, it sounds like that Oerth world's full of liches. You won't catch me there!"



    Thank you for this information. Have you located any of these residences? is his tower in the rushmoors still standing? nyr-dyv? I don't think everyone agrees on the location of its former capital.
    Jacques
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 23, 2022 4:54 am  

    Docjacques wrote:
    Thank you for this information. Have you located any of these residences? is his tower in the rushmoors still standing? nyr-dyv? I don't think everyone agrees on the location of its former capital.
    Jacques


    Vecna Lives!, page 7: "At last, emboldened by the sword’s sweet voice, Kas struck at his lord. No man saw the battle, but with its end Vecna’s dark tower crumbled into dust, leaving only the sword and a pile of ash."

    Vecna Reborn, page 50: "One of the greatest and grandest towers was Vecna’s personal library, the topmost room of which held his most valuable books and tomes. So powerful was the magical lore of these books that even after Vecna fell and the city was razed by those he had so long oppressed, the room lived on in shadow. Vecna, wise in the ways of such things, found the shadow of his ancient library and devised the Mirror Dance ritual to return there. The windows of this room still look out over dread and wondrous Ykrath, though no means exists to leave the room and travel into that long-dead city."

    Really, it would make more sense for Vecna to return to Citadel Cavitius. Note that the quote above from The Inner Planes was published before he freed himself from Ravenloft in Die Vecna Die!.

    Probably the reason why 3rd edition sources place him on the Material Plane is that edition simplified the cosmology and removed the Negative Quasielemental Plane of Ash, where Citadel Cavitius is.

    Failing that, perhaps it makes sense for him to dwell in the "shadow" of his tower, mentioned in Vecna Reborn.

    It's true that not everyone agrees on where Vecna's tower was. Vecna Lives! mentions "beyond the great mountains to the west" (i.e. what is now the Sea of Dust), the Nyr Dyv, and "another plane" as possibilities, but these should probably all be read as false rumors. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (pages 50 and 64) places Vecna's empire in "the northern part of the Sheldomar Valley," and this seems to be the most accurate account.

    Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, page 64: "The remaining Suel Houses fought the local Flan and abundant nonhumans for control of the rest of the land, which was dominated by the near-mythical Empire of Vecna in the north."

    "The next few seasons brought many changes to the land, as the Oeridian tribes entered the Sheldomar Valley from the north after a great upheaval appeared to bring down the Empire of Vecna from within."


    Last edited by rasgon on Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:09 am; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 23, 2022 5:09 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Docjacques wrote:
    Thank you for this information. Have you located any of these residences? is his tower in the rushmoors still standing? nyr-dyv? I don't think everyone agrees on the location of its former capital.
    Jacques


    Vecna Lives!, page 7: "At last, emboldened by the sword’s sweet voice, Kas struck at his lord. No man saw the battle, but with its end Vecna’s dark tower crumbled into dust, leaving only the sword and a pile of ash."

    Vecna Reborn, page 50: "One of the greatest and grandest towers was Vecna’s personal library, the topmost room of which held his most valuable books and tomes. So powerful was the magical lore of these books that even after Vecna fell and the city was razed by those he had so long oppressed, the room lived on in shadow. Vecna, wise in the ways of such things, found the shadow of his ancient library and devised the Mirror Dance ritual to return there. The windows of this room still look out over dread and wondrous Ykrath, though no means exists to leave the room and travel into that long-dead city."

    Really, it would make more sense for Vecna to return to Citadel Cavitius. Note that the quote above from The Inner Planes was published before he freed himself from Ravenloft in Die Vecna Die!.

    Probably the reason why 3rd edition sources place him on the Material Plane is that edition simplified the cosmology and removed the Negative Quasielemental Plane of Ash, where Citadel Cavitius is.

    Failing that, perhaps it makes sense for him to dwell in the "shadow" of his tower, mentioned in Vecna Reborn.

    It's true that not everyone agrees on where Vecna's tower was. Vecna Lives! mentions "beyond the great mountains to the west" (i.e. what is now the Sea of Dust), the Nyr Dyv, and "another plane" as possibilities, but these should probably all be read as false rumors. The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer (page 50) places Vecna's empire in "the northern part of the Sheldomar Valley," and this seems to be the most accurate account.




    Thank you Rasgon for all this information.
    Jacques
    Sage of Canonfire

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    Wed Sep 28, 2022 1:04 pm  

    This was a very difficult piece of lore to pin down at the time, as there were so many contradictions which Rasgon notes.

    Ultimately, the deciding factor was the existence of the Chronicle of Secret Times, which had the Suel migrants as eyewitnesses to Vecna's reign and fall. So I fixed him in the Sheldomar Valley. I think it works best.

    Here's a graphic I made at the time of the LGG to explain to my co-authors the extent of Vecna's "Empire".

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    Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:55 am  

    PSmedger wrote:
    This was a very difficult piece of lore to pin down at the time, as there were so many contradictions which Rasgon notes.

    Ultimately, the deciding factor was the existence of the Chronicle of Secret Times, which had the Suel migrants as eyewitnesses to Vecna's reign and fall. So I fixed him in the Sheldomar Valley. I think it works best.

    Here's a graphic I made at the time of the LGG to explain to my co-authors the extent of Vecna's "Empire".




    Thank you very much for this graphic. I didn't know much about the history of Sheldomar Valley and Keoland, often underestimated by the Greyhawk Wars (no Iuz, no Ivid, just humanoids). My only surprise is that Vecna's empire includes the Duchy of Urnst (perhaps to validate the presence of its tower in the Nyr-Dyv?). A secret base still in operation ?
    Jacques
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    Fri Sep 30, 2022 1:26 pm  

    No problem. Docjacques.

    There was very little lore for the Sheldomar Valley and Keoland in the 1e Greyhawk material. We got a few more data points in the 2e Greyhawk era, so I was primarily responsible for filling in the gaps in the LGG/3e era. Even the most important work in that regard, Vecna Lives! was full of contradictions (I actually admire that as a purposeful writing technique).

    Your guess is right on. Having a Vecna presence near the Nyr Dyv was important in bridging the lore. However, I don't think he had anything to do with the Isles of Woe. His empire was in its infancy when that place sank beneath the waves.

    So here is how I envision the so-called Empire of the Spidered-Throne:

    1) It was in reality a collection of Flan states run by warlords and wizards, who owed direct fealty to Vecna.

    2) Chief among these was the vampire Kas, who ruled from a city called Tycheron near the shore of the Nyr Dyv in the vicinity of Dyvers. But there were perhaps a dozen others.

    3) Vecna was rarely seen in person, he was not an active ruler, and his will was expressed through his lieutenants. He might go years without being seen or heard from.

    4) The Rotted Tower in the Rushmoors was Vecna's primary headquarters, but not his only one. He would have had perhaps a dozen towers, dungeons, and keeps, strewn across his vast empire. He would shift between them, like a spider across his web. [HELLO, ADVENTURE HOOKS!]

    5) It's possible the arrival of the Oeridians, and their long march north of his empire and the Nyr Dyv, may have precipitated the argument that led to the battle between Kas and Vecna. Inaction, dwindling resources, fear of overwhelming conflict, might have been contributing factors.

    -G
    GreySage

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    Fri Sep 30, 2022 8:12 pm  

    PSmedger wrote:
    Your guess is right on. Having a Vecna presence near the Nyr Dyv was important in bridging the lore. However, I don't think he had anything to do with the Isles of Woe. His empire was in its infancy when that place sank beneath the waves.


    The living Greyhawk adventure CORS2-02 Isles of Woe allows the players to explore an ancient library the mage-priests used before their islands were lost, and one of the things they can learn is that the Isles of Woe once had a vast empire that spanned much of the Flanaess, and there are "vague references to Vecna the necromancer." That's not terribly helpful, but the fact that it's Vecna the necromancer and not Vecna the lich suggests that this was indeed very early in Vecna's career. Assuming it's even the same Vecna. The mention of Vecna is in the context of the Isles of Woe's "vast empire," so there's no reason to think he lived in the Isles themselves, but perhaps the empire of the Isles once included the lands where Vecna lived.

    Quote:
    4) The Rotted Tower in the Rushmoors was Vecna's primary headquarters, but not his only one. He would have had perhaps a dozen towers, dungeons, and keeps, strewn across his vast empire. He would shift between them, like a spider across his web. [HELLO, ADVENTURE HOOKS!]


    Dungeon #125 includes a "subterranean cathedral," known as the Dark Cathedral, near Diamond Lake in the Domain of Greyhawk that is believed to have once been used by Vecna to conduct experiments. "In ages past, Vecna himself delved into the mysteries of life within this place."
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 01, 2022 7:25 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    PSmedger wrote:
    Your guess is right on. Having a Vecna presence near the Nyr Dyv was important in bridging the lore. However, I don't think he had anything to do with the Isles of Woe. His empire was in its infancy when that place sank beneath the waves.


    The living Greyhawk adventure CORS2-02 Isles of Woe allows the players to explore an ancient library the mage-priests used before their islands were lost, and one of the things they can learn is that the Isles of Woe once had a vast empire that spanned much of the Flanaess, and there are "vague references to Vecna the necromancer." That's not terribly helpful, but the fact that it's Vecna the necromancer and not Vecna the lich suggests that this was indeed very early in Vecna's career. Assuming it's even the same Vecna. The mention of Vecna is in the context of the Isles of Woe's "vast empire," so there's no reason to think he lived in the Isles themselves, but perhaps the empire of the Isles once included the lands where Vecna lived.

    Quote:
    4) The Rotted Tower in the Rushmoors was Vecna's primary headquarters, but not his only one. He would have had perhaps a dozen towers, dungeons, and keeps, strewn across his vast empire. He would shift between them, like a spider across his web. [HELLO, ADVENTURE HOOKS!]


    Dungeon #125 includes a "subterranean cathedral," known as the Dark Cathedral, near Diamond Lake in the Domain of Greyhawk that is believed to have once been used by Vecna to conduct experiments. "In ages past, Vecna himself delved into the mysteries of life within this place."



    Thank you for this information PSmedger and Rasgon. I'm surprised that these flanae kingdoms/empires are nearly all evil at the behest of necromancers. Isles of Woe, Caerdiralor, Sulm, Vecna... The flana religion has gods like Pelor and Rao and the Old Faith Beory, Obad-Hai and Ehlonna. Impression of Nerull domination: perhaps in exchange for his help in imprisoning Tharizdun ?
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 01, 2022 8:51 am  

    Because necromancers make better dungeons, you're going to want a lot of necromancer-ruled kingdoms in the ancient past just to stock present day dungeons with undead.

    I don't think the Isles of Woe were ruled by necromancers, though.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Mon Oct 03, 2022 12:22 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    ...The living Greyhawk adventure CORS2-02 Isles of Woe allows the players to explore an ancient library the mage-priests used before their islands were lost...


    -IIRC, this was also mentioned in Dungeon Magazine's Age of Worms, again with a Vecna connection.
    Sage of Canonfire

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    Mon Oct 03, 2022 1:56 pm  

    There are many places of goodness and neutrality within the lands of the Flan, such as the Kingdom of Queen Ehlissa, so admired by the Oeridians, but they are often unmentioned. As Rasgon says, the lore focuses on potential dungeons.

    There's always talk about doing a pre-migrations map of the Flanaess. Would be an interesting thought exercise.

    -G
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    Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:04 am  

    PSmedger wrote:
    There are many places of goodness and neutrality within the lands of the Flan, such as the Kingdom of Queen Ehlissa, so admired by the Oeridians, but they are often unmentioned. As Rasgon says, the lore focuses on potential dungeons.

    There's always talk about doing a pre-migrations map of the Flanaess. Would be an interesting thought exercise.

    -G



    I had found a map of the ancient elven kingdoms of the Flanaesse with the location of some flana kingdoms (Sulm, Ahlissa, Vecna). I don't remember the author of the map. A good starting point if we could add the dwarven and orc kingdoms.
    Jacques
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    Tue Oct 04, 2022 9:08 am  

    Docjacques wrote:
    PSmedger wrote:
    There are many places of goodness and neutrality within the lands of the Flan, such as the Kingdom of Queen Ehlissa, so admired by the Oeridians, but they are often unmentioned. As Rasgon says, the lore focuses on potential dungeons.

    There's always talk about doing a pre-migrations map of the Flanaess. Would be an interesting thought exercise.

    -G



    I had found a map of the ancient elven kingdoms of the Flanaesse with the location of some flana kingdoms (Sulm, Ahlissa, Vecna). I don't remember the author of the map. A good starting point if we could add the dwarven and orc kingdoms.
    Jacques


    greyhawkery.blogspot.com Mike B.
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    Sat Oct 08, 2022 3:40 pm  

    So I don't know - but I wonder if we aren't about to find out.

    Not too long ago "Bob the World Builder" released a Youtube video called "The VECNA Conspiracy of D&D 5.5e" in which he pointed out that the past few edition changes had been tied to Vecna and that Wotc seemed to be dropping hints about more world altering machinations caused by Vecna in recent product releases, and of course they are planning 5.5 or "One D&D".

    Long and short of it is that Vecna may be able to go back in time and kill Kas or something like that, so he is never defeated.

    Which could allow WotC to reboot Greyhawk, I'm thinking, but in the far distant past when Vecna is the evil ruler. Imagine that sourcebook!

    I mean I doubt that will happen, but who knows.
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    Sun Oct 09, 2022 7:27 am  

    Aldarron wrote:
    So I don't know - but I wonder if we aren't about to find out.

    Not too long ago "Bob the World Builder" released a Youtube video called "The VECNA Conspiracy of D&D 5.5e" in which he pointed out that the past few edition changes had been tied to Vecna and that Wotc seemed to be dropping hints about more world altering machinations caused by Vecna in recent product releases, and of course they are planning 5.5 or "One D&D".

    Long and short of it is that Vecna may be able to go back in time and kill Kas or something like that, so he is never defeated.

    Which could allow WotC to reboot Greyhawk, I'm thinking, but in the far distant past when Vecna is the evil ruler. Imagine that sourcebook!

    I mean I doubt that will happen, but who knows.



    Sorry, three pieces of information from the recent adventure "The Vecna Dossier" D&D Beyond D&D5 :

    1) According to legend, Vecna went on to forge a kingdom in the world of Greyhawk. He ruled for several centuries from an obsidian tower that rose from the bottom of the black waters of the Nyr Dyv to stretch far above its surface.

    2) More recently, Vecna decamped to the Outer Planes, where he grew so powerful that he became a god. He has many ardent worshipers, all hungry for a taste of his immense power.

    3) The accompanying stat block depicts Vecna in his archlich form prior to Kas’s betrayal. Because Vecna is said to have mastered magic allowing him to travel through time, he can appear in this form even on worlds where his severed hand and eye are already known artifacts.

    This adventure was co-written by Mike Bernier and Michael Galvis:

    Mike Bernier (@arcane_eye) is the founder of Arcane Eye, a site focused on providing useful tips and tricks to all those involved in the world of D&D. Outside of writing for Arcane Eye, Mike spends most of his time playing games, hiking with his girlfriend, and tending the veritable jungle of houseplants that have invaded his house.

    Michael Galvis (@michaelgalvis) is a tabletop content producer for D&D Beyond. He is a longtime Dungeon Master who enjoys horror films and all things fantasy and sci-fi. When he isn’t in the DM’s seat or rolling dice as his anxious halfling sorcerer, he’s playing League of Legends and Magic: The Gathering with his husband. They live together in Los Angeles with their adorable dog, Quentin.
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    Sun Oct 09, 2022 8:04 am  

    Aldarron wrote:
    So I don't know - but I wonder if we aren't about to find out.

    Not too long ago "Bob the World Builder" released a Youtube video called "The VECNA Conspiracy of D&D 5.5e" in which he pointed out that the past few edition changes had been tied to Vecna and that Wotc seemed to be dropping hints about more world altering machinations caused by Vecna in recent product releases, and of course they are planning 5.5 or "One D&D".

    Long and short of it is that Vecna may be able to go back in time and kill Kas or something like that, so he is never defeated.

    Which could allow WotC to reboot Greyhawk, I'm thinking, but in the far distant past when Vecna is the evil ruler. Imagine that sourcebook!

    I mean I doubt that will happen, but who knows.




    Excerpt from a discussion on the net I found interesting:
    Connecting the dots: what the Vecna Dossier means for a future book release

    Avatar de membre
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    KnzznK

    That's exactly what they want to do, and are doing.

    Hasbro/WotC is working hard to separate the game-system and lore from each other, so that they can mix the system (or more likely the future version of it) with whatever they want, however they want, and without any kind of problems. They're getting rid of problematic or explicit lore, homogenizing everything, making everything compatible with everything else, and so on. This is obvious for everyone to see.

    On top of that, they want control. They want the ability to do whatever they want to (for example in FR) without the history/lore of the setting being a burden or problem for this. They want the ability to put e.g. MtG content into the same universe as FR and vice versa. They want the ability to do all this within the whole sphere of D&D, unhindered. How are they going to do this? By turning the D&D universe into multiverse, which can then contain literally anything they want to put into it. To them there can't be allowed to be any sort of fundamental problems with putting e.g. Eberron content into FR, or other way around, lore be damned. I'm afraid most of the settings are already loosing their identities because if this homogenization.

    But why are they doing this? Because the ideal situation for them would be one where whatever they put out it'd be something that ALL of their (TTRPG/gaming) consumers would be interested in. They want to build a system where they can put out Eberron (or even MtG) content and the FR guys want to buy it also, by default, because it'd be content for the same multiverse.

    Same goes for the system: They would like to have a situation where no matter what the buyer is interested in, they'd be buying the system/rules eventually for it as well. They're basically making the 5e/6e core-system into an "end-to-end blueprint" for all of their IPs. They talk about this quite clearly and openly in the Hasbro Q1 2022 report.

    So what, in my opinion, to expect in the future? A generic (not necessarily bad) system that can be used with everything Hasbro wants to glue it into, and "lore" content that is generic enough so that it can be used and mix n' matched with everything else. Or I guess more correct way to put all this would be to say that there won't be any real separation between different settings. It'll all be one, unified, multiverse where everything works with everything else, and nothing has any sort of real identity.

    Jacques
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