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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Hold of the Sea Princes
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    The Hold of the Sea Princes
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    From: Nyrond

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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 8:49 pm  
    The Hold of the Sea Princes

    Hello Everyone,

    Well, my party is about to begin adventure in the Hold of the Sea Princes (The Sentinel). I'm going to divide the Hold into the highlands and the lowlands. The lowlands are still under the occupation of the Scarlet Brotherhood. The highlands are relatively unscathed so far. But while the party travels upriver to Lake Spendlowe, they may encounter political infighting amongst the various nobles. My question is, in your opinion, how much infighting should there be? Please keep in mind that technically, there has been no slave revolts yet and the SB have not made it past the Kamph Mountains yet. Should the party fail....well, that opens the hinterland to the Scarlet Brotherhood. Should the party be successful, they effectively stop an invasion. Your perspective will be greatly appreciated.

    I Miss the Wild Coast
    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:26 pm  

    DFN,

    I take it that the nobles have not been assassinated en masse yet. If that is the case, the infighting probably isn't going to be actual fighting. Lots of politics, back-room deals, intimidation of minions by minions, and so forth. Most nobles would probably look at the party as outsiders, and see how they could leverage/hire/coerce them into doing the noble's dirty work.

    If the assassinations have already occured, the nobles are really just SB puppets. Actions detrimental to the SB would get a reaction like the pod people from Invasion of the Body Snatchers. Shocked

    Once the revolts occur, the nobility has a chance to reassert itself. Bloodshed would follow outside of the SB controlled areas, where claims to land and nobility would have to be backed by force. But inside, the nobles are sheep, and the SB are the only ones that do the killing.

    If you set up in that narrow window between the revolts starting and the total breakdown of the Hold, your party can probably influence the direction of an entire country. If that's the path you want to take them down. Smile
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:59 am  
    Low spirits

    Heya FirePower,

    Actually, I do want the party to influence the invasion of the Hold of the Sea Princes by the Scarlet Brotherhood. Smile I'm hoping that they will complete the adventure and move on to The Gauntlet adventure. If they succeed, a Ranger will come from one of the true noble houses and lead attacks from the Keep of Alderweg. They will eventually beat back the Scarlet Brotherhood. The assassinations of the nobles en masse have taken place, but only the "lowland" nobles and not the sleepy eyed, sheep hearding "highland" nobles. Which is ammusing b/c the highland nobles will eventually lay the smackdown on the Scarlet Brotherhood.

    Right now the party is in dire straights. They boarded a river boat to travel up the Hool River to the starting point of the adventure. Unfortunately, the ship was being attacked by a giant, throwing rocks. The party mage decided to try and cast featherfall on an incoming rock. He failed and the rock hit him and knocked him into the Hool River. The fighter, being a smarty pants, tried to manhandle and grapple a sailor and throw him overboard (under the pretense that he wanted to get the sailor to save the mage, instead of just yelling man overboard or something). The sailor wrestled with the fighter b/c he didn't know what the fighter was doing, he just thought he was being attacked by the fighter. The captain ordered some of the crew to restrain the fighter who was then pummled into a warm sleepy unconscious state. The captain then decided that the party had endangered the crew in a time of peril and endangered the ship and cargo. So captain took leniencey and simply rowed them to shore, a couple of hundred miles north of their objective. Shocked Sad So the party travelled on land for a bit and walked right into a slavers encampment (SB). They ate the food, tried to sleep there and hoped to sneek away before sun up. I'm not quite sure what the heck the party was thinking at that moment. Anyway, they got into a terrible fight and lost most of their equiptment. They came to a small hamlet and tried to get a small fishing boat to take them upriver. That boat was attacked by a giant crab. The party cleric lost his armor. They eventually made it to the adventure starting point but are in low spirits Wink

    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Mon Apr 11, 2005 7:28 am  

    [trying not to hyjack the thread] It's always good to hear from other people there adventures in The Sea Princes. I'm currently running a game that has landed the PCs there, albeit under vastly different circumstances and many year later then your game.

    So far it sounds like you have some very good elements to your game. Sounds very exciting!

    .........................................Omote
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    Mon Apr 11, 2005 8:39 am  

    DFN, sounds like your party is just the group to save the Hold Wink Please post updates as the campaign progresses.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Apr 11, 2005 4:27 pm  
    My version of the Hold

    Great to hear some good ideas from the Hold of the Sea Princes.

    I wrote on the Post Greyhawk Wars Hold from a Keoish perspective here:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=445&mode=&order=0&thold=0

    Most of the article centers on the areas around Westkeep and the coasts, but here are my two coppers on the rest of the land:

    While most of the nobility were successfully assassinated at the start of the wars (the Greyhawk Wars Adventurer's Book accessory stated that out of a list of 30 petty nobles 27 were slain by assassins - but I hold that this does not represent all of the nobility of the Sea Princes, just a significant portion), there were quite a few that collaberated with the Scarlet Brotherhood and were thus allowed to keep their feifs. These collaberators had to be at least partially Suel in race (but a few demi-humans may be acceptable as well). Chief among these collaberators was the Grandee of Westkeep, Maag.

    So while the SB had direct rule over the coastal areas (and thus the richest and best parts of the Sea Princes), the interior was much more laxly governed by the collaberating nobility. This leaves for many pockets of resistance among the poorer and more isolated areas (Breygraf could be a great example).

    I included some weird places that are neither SB controlled nor Sea Prince loyalists in the interior - the city of Industrious is ruled as a seperate state by a fanatical Bralm priestess, the halflings of the Hools hated the SB and the SP alike, the Cult of the All Watching Eye is a threat to everyone, and certain pirate/bandit nobles such as Baffler are wild cards.

    Adventures can be centered around interacting with these bizarre fringe groups. Certainly, the Yeomany and Keoland could be potential allies for any group resisting the SB (though Keoland may harbor ambitions to annex the lands themselves).

    Good luck in fighting the good fight there.

    O-D
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:19 am  
    Rules lawyering

    Hello there,

    I just wanted to say thanks to those of you who have shown interest in my game so far. Right now I'm in a debate with one of the players who feels that I'm not running the game right. He has a very strong interpretation of the 3.5 rues and feels that at his current level (4th lvl Cleric), he should have 6 potions of healing, a scroll of neutralize poison, a scroll of cure moderate wounds, a wand of cure light wounds, a mastercrafted light steel shield, chainmail armor +1 (at the least) and at least a +2 weapon. He feels that you should be able to go into any town and find a person who can brew potions, a magic shop or find someone able to mastercraft items and that everyone in the party should all have mastercrafted armor at the very least. It's an endless cirlce of hate, let me tell you Wink

    I Miss the Wild Coast
    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:16 pm  

    I am sure that there would be someone in every town willing to sell them the "genuine artifact". Wink
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:36 pm  

    DFN,

    Do what I do to the poor Officers where I work...

    Give them EXACTLY what they want.


    PLAYER: I want a +2 morningstar!

    ADVANCED HOBGOBLIN: You can have mine... Laughing
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:12 pm  

    Yaarrggh! A pretty brutal outing for the pc's so far. Seems to be of their own making though. It pays to be civil with the regular folk of the Greyhawk. It is they who provide everything from food, equipment, and transportation for pc's after all.

    I have been very tempted to run the Sentinel/Gauntlet adventures lately, particularly with all of the talk of the Hold of the Sea Princes. This sounds like a great area top set an adventure in. The SB connection would work very well in my campaign too as well.

    As to the political intrigue, Firepower and Ozmund-Davizid have some good takes on things to consider. I'll probably take them to heart myself if I do actually run these adventures. All this talk about them does give me a wild hare to do them.

    And as to your "I know how things are supposed to be in 3.5e" player, you might remind them that every town doesn't have an alchemist(churches/temples might offer potions for sale), an expert armorer capable of master-crafted workmanship, or a magic shop stocked with magic items that can be perused like a department store. Temples might have healing potions, but not every town is going to have a high level priest in charge, and even if they do, this priest is usually too busy running the affairs of the church to take out the amount of time necessary to stock up their supply of higher level potions and scrolls. Such things are usually saved for emergencies, and are only sold in times of need, or sometimes given to those in service to the church.

    You might also want to curtail the amount of cash your players have. Pay more attention to living expenses. Adventurers usually don't do anything on the cheap. While they may not drink and eat the best stuff in town, they usually go for the next best. Same with clothing. Same with room and board. If a 4th level priest has loads of money to burn then burn it. Paladins are required to tithe 10% of their earned monies to the church; the rest they usually spend on maintenance and acquiring things that can help them serve the church. Paladins are pretty devout. In my campaign, clerics are even more so. They tithe 10%, and are required to use 25% of the remainder doing the work of the church through their own means, whether this is by sponsoring a building project, a festival, or providing for the needy. What is required depends on the deity who is served of course. I priest of Heironeous might train troops or peasants to fight, while a priest of Wee Jas might sponsor magical research or spend time and money making a graveyard sacrosanct. You get the idea.

    Generally, items that a character couldn't make themselves are not things they should usually have many of. Craft Magic Arms & Armor has a 5th level requirement. Tell the cleric player their pc can make whatever they can afford to make once they get the ability to do so. Otherwise, they will have to make due with what they find adventuring, or what is actually available for purchase in the towns they visit. Large metropolitan cities, usually capitol cities, are the best bet for finding what the pc wants.

    Please keep us updated on how things turn out in the Sentinel/Gauntlet, and how your players respond top the situations you present them.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:27 pm  
    Re: Rules lawyering

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Hello there,

    I just wanted to say thanks to those of you who have shown interest in my game so far. Right now I'm in a debate with one of the players who feels that I'm not running the game right. He has a very strong interpretation of the 3.5 rues and feels that at his current level (4th lvl Cleric), he should have 6 potions of healing, a scroll of neutralize poison, a scroll of cure moderate wounds, a wand of cure light wounds, a mastercrafted light steel shield, chainmail armor +1 (at the least) and at least a +2 weapon. He feels that you should be able to go into any town and find a person who can brew potions, a magic shop or find someone able to mastercraft items and that everyone in the party should all have mastercrafted armor at the very least. It's an endless cirlce of hate, let me tell you Wink
    I Miss the Wild Coast
    Dwarf from Nyrond


    Well, "by the rules" a 4th level character should have 5,400 gp. A +2 weapon is 8,000 gp (not including the cost of the actual masterworked weapon). So he's way off base right from the get-go.

    Otherwise, I got nothin'. I tend to run slightly more powerful than usual campaigns (no low magic here!), but I think magic shops are a crock.

    Cheers
    Nell.
    Mad Archmage of the Oerth Journal

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    Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:14 pm  
    Re: Rules lawyering

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Hello there,

    I just wanted to say thanks to those of you who have shown interest in my game so far. Right now I'm in a debate with one of the players who feels that I'm not running the game right. He has a very strong interpretation of the 3.5 rues and feels that at his current level (4th lvl Cleric), he should have 6 potions of healing, a scroll of neutralize poison, a scroll of cure moderate wounds, a wand of cure light wounds, a mastercrafted light steel shield, chainmail armor +1 (at the least) and at least a +2 weapon. He feels that you should be able to go into any town and find a person who can brew potions, a magic shop or find someone able to mastercraft items and that everyone in the party should all have mastercrafted armor at the very least. It's an endless cirlce of hate, let me tell you Wink

    I Miss the Wild Coast
    Dwarf from Nyrond


    Well if he's a starting character he should have about 5,400 gp
    I'm going to assume he made the Potions of Cure Light Wounds (CL 4) thats 200gp each normally or 100gp each for crafted items. [600gp.]
    The scrolls of neutralize poison and cure modrate wounds would total about [850gp].
    The wand of cure light wounds (CL1), starts at [750gp].

    At 4th level I can agree to him having masterwork armor and shield, but since he has +1 chainmail thats [1,300gp] and [159gp] for the masterwork light steel shield.
    we'll say he uses a +1 light mace thats [2,305gp], if its +2 then its [8305gp].

    So totaling it all up with the +1 mace instead, hes at 5,964gp which is slightly above the listed 5,400gp for a starting character. Now if he's been adventuring a while thats cool. But as a rule of thumb the +2 mace is a no no, Use this scale when determining what kind of bonuses are added to wpns are armor.

    1st - 2nd: masterwork items
    4th - 6th: +1 items
    7th - 9th: +2 items
    10th-13th: +3 items
    14th - 17th: +4 items
    18th - 20th: +5 items
    21+: +5 - epic items

    This is just a rough reference idea on how big their items should be, sometimes odd things do happen in game but this is a good guideline.

    Also I do not use magic shops at ALL in my game, and if I do they're in uber large cities, like Greyhawk City and the prices are hiked +50%.

    In any other case, it is possible occassionally to run across an item at an alchemists shop, a weaponsmith, armorer, herbalist, or any shop that sells/ supplies spell components.

    If you have future problems with the player wanting more and more magic, reduce the amt of magic items in the campaign, slap a few dispel magics or mordenkainen's disjunctions at em, or sunder their items in combat. This isnt the best thing to do but if you have problems or need some balance don't feel bad about laying the smackdown on them now and again. =)
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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 4:28 am  

    My campaign has strong links to the Hold, in fact my own character was chosen by the Sentinel while playing the module and became Guardian of Adlerweg when I took over DMing. Since her cohort was a doppleganger bard, they've been playing a dangerous game trying to fool the Brotherhood that Adlerweg is under their control (as at 587 CY).

    Since canon has the Duchy of Berghof as low population density and largely untouched by the civil strife of 589 CY, it stands to reason that the Brotherhood did not have a strong presence there, although Suel merchants might have continued to use Adlerweg pass as part of the trade route to Melkot. Plenty of potential for development.

    As to magic shops, I strongly believe that they should not be available at all anywhere other than very large cities. In fact, I've been in favour of limiting wizard guilds to those listed in the old Oerth journal, so if wizards want to learn they have to travel (i.e to Hogwarts).

    My main criticism of Living Greyhawk is that logistically, it has encouraged each country to develop a Mage's Guild staffed by dozens of powerful wizards. With so many wizards it becomes easier to justify the 'magic off a conveyer belt' attitude. Personally, if players are creating characters above level 1, I encourage them to design their own magical items, and then scale them down using the DMG guidance if they've gone overboard. That way they get to add a bit of flavour to the character without the boring old +1 this or +2 that.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:14 am  

    Hijacking the thread a little bit here, but...

    I actually use Ye Olde Magic Shoppe quite a bit. In a village, it'll be chock full of snake oil, cure-alls, herbs, and local remedies. You can find some nifty spell components (enough to reload a pouch) for your more common spells. You might even find a real potion, but the proprietor probably doesn't know what it is.

    Small towns you'll find more of the same, but there will be a few arcane potions (identified) and maybe a disposable magic item or two. Expect the weird item that no one wants to show up once in a while, too. "Murlynd's Spoon? What's that do?"

    Large towns will cater more to the arcane spellcaster, having more exotic spell components and equipment, as well as a limited amount of potions. Scrolls and other disposable magic items will be a little more available, and picking up one cheap item (say a +1 weapon, or a minor wondrous item) shouldn't be impossible.

    And it just kind of scales up from there. Metro centers like Greyhawk have multiple shops, but are still limited to +2 or +3 items max. Anything more than that is snatched up immediately, and won't be found sitting on the shelves.

    Keep in mind the DMG's GP limit on what the population center can afford. That'll help keep you from selling Vorpal Defenders in Hommlet. Smile

    Back on track...

    The Sentinel is an AD&D module I presume. I think I remember seeing the cover, but I never flipped through it. Can anyone give me a short synopsis? I've been sending players to that neck of the woods lately (LOVE Saltmarsh), so more info on the area could be good.
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Apr 13, 2005 9:13 pm  

    I like the idea of Hedge Mage shops and apothecaries that stock minor spell components and maybe a minor potion and scroll or two. If you can get it, the Soveriegn Stone campaign sourcebook for d20 (By Sovereign Press, and as far as I can tell, now discontinued) has a nice section on what items are found in various shops, including armories, magic shops, etc.

    Aurora's Whole Realms Catalog also has some cool ideas for what a magic shop might carry, if you can find one in decent shape and don't mind converting from 2e.

    I don't like the idea of shops that carry real magic items though, except very rarely. If a magic shop or pawn shop type place had an actual magic item for sale, IMO, it would be outrageously priced and bought up very quickly, so the PCs better be lucky and get there as soon as it goes up for sale.
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    Mon May 16, 2005 8:28 am  

    Does anyone have any information on the holding of the Plar of the Hool, Darwog and/or the junction of the Hool and Javan, in the pre-GH Wars period? How about the river itself? I will be sending my PCs up the Hool after Cwslyclgh’s Hurricane Bow through the UK2-3 series. I have taken a look at several articles, but the only thing I have found is that there would be plantations with Olman slaves. They will be just passing through the area, but I would like to give them as much flavor as possible.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon May 16, 2005 5:31 pm  
    Re: Rules lawyering

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Hello there,

    I just wanted to say thanks to those of you who have shown interest in my game so far. Right now I'm in a debate with one of the players who feels that I'm not running the game right. He has a very strong interpretation of the 3.5 rues and feels that at his current level (4th lvl Cleric), he should have 6 potions of healing, a scroll of neutralize poison, a scroll of cure moderate wounds, a wand of cure light wounds, a mastercrafted light steel shield, chainmail armor +1 (at the least) and at least a +2 weapon. He feels that you should be able to go into any town and find a person who can brew potions, a magic shop or find someone able to mastercraft items and that everyone in the party should all have mastercrafted armor at the very least. It's an endless cirlce of hate, let me tell you Wink

    I Miss the Wild Coast
    Dwarf from Nyrond


    Interesting. I'd love to know just where in any rulebook for any RPG that a character is entitled to any specfic equipment. He gets his spells based on his level. The rest he has to find, buy, steal, or otherwise obtain on his own. This is a roleplaying game, not a computer game.

    Boy, you sure have an interesting group Wink

    Theala
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    Tue May 17, 2005 4:13 am  
    Re: Rules lawyering

    Theala_Sildorian wrote:
    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Hello there,

    He has a very strong interpretation of the 3.5 rues and feels that at his current level (4th lvl Cleric), he should have 6 potions of healing, a scroll of neutralize poison, a scroll of cure moderate wounds, a wand of cure light wounds, a mastercrafted light steel shield, chainmail armor +1 (at the least) and at least a +2 weapon. He feels that you should be able to go into any town and find a person who can brew potions, a magic shop or find someone able to mastercraft items and that everyone in the party should all have mastercrafted armor at the very least. It's an endless cirlce of hate, let me tell you Wink

    I Miss the Wild Coast
    Dwarf from Nyrond


    Interesting. I'd love to know just where in any rulebook for any RPG that a character is entitled to any specfic equipment. He gets his spells based on his level. The rest he has to find, buy, steal, or otherwise obtain on his own. This is a roleplaying game, not a computer game.

    Boy, you sure have an interesting group Wink

    Theala


    Doesn't the DM's guide give clear guidance on the most expensive items you can find in towns of a certain size? Even then that is dependent on having npcs of sufficiently high level to create magical items and towns generally have max level guidelines as well.

    Still, you should feel free to give him what he wants AND THEN STEAL IT ALL BACK. I've done that a few times with Lareth and a pack of yeth hounds, a few anti-magical effects etc. It's fun!

    I prefer to taylor items to the pcs rather than burden them with boring ol +1 this or +2 that. I rarely give npcs many mundane magical items either. Usually just one or two signature items. I'm more in favour of aligning items so that most npcs would have evil items that will give pcs negative levels if they keep them.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed May 18, 2005 9:51 pm  
    Re: Rules lawyering

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Theala_Sildorian wrote:


    Interesting. I'd love to know just where in any rulebook for any RPG that a character is entitled to any specfic equipment. He gets his spells based on his level. The rest he has to find, buy, steal, or otherwise obtain on his own. This is a roleplaying game, not a computer game.

    Boy, you sure have an interesting group Wink

    Theala


    Doesn't the DM's guide give clear guidance on the most expensive items you can find in towns of a certain size? Even then that is dependent on having npcs of sufficiently high level to create magical items and towns generally have max level guidelines as well.


    Sure it does, but that doesn't mean players are entitled to have them just cuz they gain a level Wink And a guide is just that. It doesn't mean the GM has to make the items available even in the largest of cities, if he feels it will be abused.


    Quote:

    Still, you should feel free to give him what he wants AND THEN STEAL IT ALL BACK. I've done that a few times with Lareth and a pack of yeth hounds, a few anti-magical effects etc. It's fun!


    As a player, I hate that. In my group, if I want a particular kind of magic item, I discuss it with the GM, come up with a reasonable explaination as to why she should have it, and if he approves I get it. Sometimes he throws some really nifty things my way. If I'm careful with them, I get to keep them. If I'm careless, then I can lose them easily. But if I do, its because of something I did, not "just cuz." We restrict magic to try to keep the wonder, and not have it be something you get at Wal Mart.

    Quote:

    I prefer to taylor items to the pcs rather than burden them with boring ol +1 this or +2 that. I rarely give npcs many mundane magical items either. Usually just one or two signature items. I'm more in favour of aligning items so that most npcs would have evil items that will give pcs negative levels if they keep them.


    Same with our group. Our magic is usually unique to our characters in some way. Not necesarilly overly powerful, but unique and useful.

    Theala
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    Thu May 19, 2005 12:44 am  
    Re: Rules lawyering

    Theala_Sildorian wrote:
    Sure it does, but that doesn't mean players are entitled to have them just cuz they gain a level Wink And a guide is just that. It doesn't mean the GM has to make the items available even in the largest of cities, if he feels it will be abused....

    Our magic is usually unique to our characters in some way. Not necesarilly overly powerful, but unique and useful.

    Theala


    Ah yes, I see what you are saying now. In my campaign no magical items are availalbe for easy purchase except minor scrolls and potions. Everything else has to be commissioned. In addition, I prefer 1st edition creation guidelines, where you have to find special ingredients and components to make magical items (leads to the culling of too many sprites and pixies to make Dust of Disappearance but hey, it sure makes the stuff rarer!)

    I love the new rules generally but magic items have become about number crunching, whereas I prefer mysticism. It's nice to have guidelines on how to create items but if you just look at the numbers, they lose all their flavour. You'll amost never find the captain of the guard with a magic sword in my campaign unless there's a backstory to justify it.

    I altered the item creation rules as written so that all items cost 1.5 to 2x cost and take increments of 2d4 days to enchant per however many gold it is (plus the time taken to create the base item). Thus powerful items can take up to a year to make, AND you have to wait in a queue - wizards don't sit around waiting for pcs to come along - they have other commissions too.

    Having said all that, after 15 years, our pcs are 10th-13th level and still have quite a few items (probably a lot less than your pc would be happy with though!) and as you can see, I kept a tight grip on xp as well!.

    For our email campaign I was even harsher - limiting 8-12th pcs to 5 magical items (with potions and scrolls counting as 1/2) to encourage them to tailor their items. It seemed to work ok.

    Some people love having loads of magic but I find that if you stick with the 30 seconds rule in combat, those with more magical items tend to struggle more because they can't decide what to use. I don't use it religiously but it's fun to keep the pcs under pressure (and I allow the extra 10 seconds per point of intelligence bonus rule to help out spell-casters). And I will confess that I HATE items that just increase stats by up to +6. +2 is fine, but +6 is silly.

    Ultimately, you can't please all of the players all of the time I guess!
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