I have been looking at the Chainmail material, to include some very nice maps available online. To judge by these maps, if Chainmail is "canon," the Dragon Annual Map cannot be "canon" and vice versa; the two are mutually exclusive. On close examination, I do not believe this to be true.
The maps available online that show the Chainmail countries taking up most or all of Western Oerik do not, I believe, match the written descriptions of the metes and bounds of the Chainmail states. Looking at the written descriptions of the Chainmail states (and referring to the Dragon Annual Map), the whole of the region described in the Chainmail game is north of the Empire of Lynn. Ravallia is approximately where the Elvanian Forest is located (fitting for elves) but stretches from the coast to the mountains. The maps available online are incorrect.
If this reading holds up under further scrutiny (which it may or may not):
From north of the Empire of Lynn, Chainmail would be canon.
From the Empire of Lynn south, the Dragon Annual Map would be canon.
The Dragon Annual Map would also be canon east of the triple mountain range that separates the High Khanate and Celestial Imperium from the Kingdoms of the Marches (ie many of the Chainmail states), the Elvanian Forest (Ravallia) and the expansive Empire of Lynn. In other words, the Khanates and Celestial Imperium east on the Dragon Annual Map until you reach the Flanaess would be canon.
I think this reading will reasonably reconcile the Chainmail setting and the Dragon Annual Map, references to both of which appear in "canon" sources to this point. They can both be right.
While it was an interesting idea, I do not consider much of anything related to Chainmail to be canon. The "feel" of the Chainmail realms is not even close to that of the WoG is. This feeling of mine was further reinforced by some of the authors themselves who said that the project was hindered by a disruptive atmosphere. Plus, the direction of the project changed during its production no less than two (or three) times. I won't even go into the miniature production aspect of the whole thing. Most of those involved with the Chainmail project do not look back on it as the perfect project. Far from it.
I have simply loaded the Chainmail "canon" into a cannon, and have shot it far far away from the borders of eastern Oerik.
Was it all garbage? No; there were some interesting ideas, but there is not much that redeems the whole mess. Chainmail is the Formorian baby of Greyhawk. It isn't very cute.
The mapping is probably the easiest thing to correct and get to gel with other published material, but I'd rather see The Chainmail realms get a complete face-lift. By this I mean the kind of face-lift where you lift off one face, and replace it with an entirely new one. Tightening it up any further at all will only give us Joan Rivers Greyhawk, which makes me cringe just thinking about it.
That being said, I really would like to see some material presented on western Oerik; particularly if it has a Greyhawk "flavor" to it, which Chainmail did not. This material need not be fully detailed. Just glimpses of the west would be good. Save the really good stuff for when a real Greyhawk sourcebook is actually published by people who know GH and more importantly are actually allowed to do things the right way.
How much better would Chainmail have done if it had been set in the already developed and familiar Eastern Oerik?. I think it would have done MUCH better. As I found out later, many of those involved with the project were in agreement with me.
Considering the Chainmail setting, I think that it would be very difficult to satisfactorily reconcile its material with the "generally accepted" canon of previous Greyhawk sources to the extent that it would be acceptable to the majority of Greyhawk fans. That would be a tough nut to crack in my opinion.
Somebody will need a B.F.H. to craft this one into a pleasing shape.
This is a tough topic, and one that should get a decent amount of debate. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I have not really seen anything about Chainmail past what was featured in Dragon. I do think it has potential but given its thrown together feel, yeah I wouldn't use it wholesale. And speaking of thrown together, the Dragon Annual world map is technically canon I guess, but that map reminds me of a map of the 'Known World' in Dragon's Princess Ark series. From the get go the labels on that map were discounted as false and IIRC the travels then shed fact on the inconsistences later. The same should be done for GH someday.
Officially seen, Chainmail should certainly be regarded canon... It was an offically product, after all.
Although, indeed, it would be very hard to patch some relations between the Flanaess and the God Kingdoms (IIRC) together...
As a miniature game, I found Chainmail quite interesting, while I think that an indepth look to that setting is not worth the effort you have while trying to collect the material which is oop and expensive.
Most adventures set in the Flanaess have no ties to the other regions of the world, set aside the old Suloise kingdoms.
However, I think we REALLY could use an updated world map of Oerth, with Aquaria, Antaria (anyone remembers?), Chainmail, and maybe the oriental adventures on it... Too sad that I am such a bad cartographer... Volunteers? _________________ "A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.
If I had been given the decision, I would have opted not to do Chainmail the way it was done. It is what it is, however, and appears to be canon.
I can understand wanting to ignore Chainmail but I think a risk is thereby run. By most definations, Chainmail qualifies as "technically" canon. Of course, other "canon" material has been "de-canonized." The Rose Estes novels have been completely "de-canonozed," while "funny Castle Greyhawk" has been "de-canonized," except for those parts that are GH specific without being "funny." Chainmail is much better in all respects than either the Estes novels or "funny Castle Greyhawk." Why then should it be "de-canonized?"
If Chainmail conflicts with the Dragon Annual Map and the two are mutually exclusive, one can reasonably be chosen over the other. If, as I suggest, Chainmail and the DA map can be harmonized by correctly understanding the limited extent of the Chainmail nations, that is another way to proceed.
To simply discard Chainmail wholesale, however, for no other reason than that we dislike it and would have preferred better, IMO makes "canon" an nonesuch term, with no real meaning. Canon becomes what we say it is -just because. Canon is then a term whose defination is variable depending upon who gets to do the choosing, whose taste rules. The notion of "Greyhawk scholarship" then becomes a complete joke.
Some don't like SKR's Hepmonaland - so its not "canon?" Some dislike From the Ashes - so its not "canon?" Some dislike Chainmail - so its not "canon?" Once that door is opened, there is no easy way to shut it. Personal preference, even when shared, should not determine canon, unless like the Rose Estes novels, there is a more than mere personal preference reason to do so.
I think Chainmail must be considered canon unless it is found in absolute conflict with the DA map. _________________ GVD
I know from discussions at the time that Chris Pramas, who was leading the Chainmail "world" development, used the Annual Map as the basis for what western Oerik was meant to look like. GVD is correct in the assumption that the Chainmail lands begin north of the Empire of Lynn. Most of the realms of Chainmail, again based on contemporary discussions with Chris, are based in the area surrounding the large triangular island south of the "Mare Mysticum" tag on the Annual map. Ravilla, I believe, is supposed to be the "Elvanian Forest" nation. The "white" folks are supposed to be Oeridians.
Very little of this was explicitly spelled out due to WotC's confusing policy on Greyhawk at the time, but some of it would have come out in the Chainmail hardcover that never managed to make it to print (which was also to have included a map of the region GVD suggests).
Other Chainmail/Greyhawk ties include House Kilsek, of the Vault of the Drow, and the goddess Stern Alia, who first appeared in the "Tamoachan" adventure as background for one of the pregenerated characters.
Chris had not originally intended for Chainmail to be a part of Oerth, but the powers that be forced him to put it there, albeit far from the Flanaess, which at the time was considered RPGA-only territory.
Mr Mona, is there any chance to see that HC book released as pdf some day? *Preferredly free, just like ItU...*
Besides, are there any clear hints in the Chainmail books on when exactly the action is taking place? - For me, it seemed always that CM was set much earlier or much later than the Greyhawk setting time period.
*I just played a greatly altered version of Chainmail for only about two sessions, so please pardon my ignorance*
Besides, are there any clear hints in the Chainmail books on when exactly the action is taking place? - For me, it seemed always that CM was set much earlier or much later than the Greyhawk setting time period.
There are approximately a dozen or so Dragon articles that developed Chainmail's background in considerablely more detail than in the game itself. Reference to dates in the 500's is common. My surmise is that the "current" Chainmail campaign took place prior to the start date for the Folio and 83 boxed set, with some overlap/forward movement.
The interesting thing to me is how that history can be tied into the history of the Flanaess. In addition to the connections Mr. Mona notes, there is also direct reference to Nerull and a few other "Flanean" connections. Most is left unconnected but ties could be forged.
Clearly, the godly structures are different in great degree - the uberpowerful god "Stratis?" Who is killed.
The socio/political structures are also notably different - elves are the dominant race (not hiding or "fading") and they are aggressive, manipulating peoples and events to maintain what is left of their once greater empire. The dwarves are also quite assertive. Humanoid and inhuman realms feature as prominently as humanocentric domains, which are several among equals or even superiors. Arguably, the chief human realm Thalos (sp) is as villainous as any but the worst of the humanoid/inhuman realms.
Is it "Grey?" That begs the question of what that means. Is it like the Flanaess? No. But it makes no sense to suppose the whole of Oerth feels like the Flanaess only different in name and minor details.
I think the better question is - is it an interesting addition to Oerth that does not so clash with the feel of the Flanaess as to be deemed too "alien?" I think the answer here is a qualified, "yes." The Chainmail setting is an interesting addition to a small area of Oerth, however, it has some rough edges that need to be filed off; given its history as Erik relates, this should not be shocking.
Rather than throw the Chainmail states out, I think they must be accorded canon status if canon is to mean anything more than personal preference. Canon is not subject to a voice vote or a show of hands or dictatorial fiat, IMO. If "Greyhawk scholarship" means anything more than an ego gratifying term, canon must have a meaning independent of personal preference. Indeed, IMO, if canon scholarship has a "fun quotient," it is in reconciling pieces of the puzzle that do not neatly fit - not ignoring them or throwing them away.
"Decanonization" of setting labeled material published by the IP holder should, IMO, be reserved for only the most egregious and rare travesties - Rose Estes (who wrote 6 books?) has already been "decanonoized;" most of "funny Castle Greyhawk" has been "decanonized." I see no comparison between these instances and Chainmail.
I would like to see Chainmail developed as an alternative to the Flanaess or as an adjunct. Not a carbon copy - same gods, same villains, same organizations - BLEH.
Let Chainmail be Chainmail! Now, about the Celestial Imperium, Ruujin (Nippon) and "The Empire of Lynn" . . . _________________ GVD
The Nippon Isles will be my next Oerthian baby as soon as my current stuff about the Griffs is finsihed... Thinking about playing *lean and hungry* there, an adventure of the Penumbra line...
As Mr Mona is currently collecting material about the past of the lesser known people of Oerth, I am quite interested in what *iquander* is plotting... Maybe this will lead to such a *general overview* of the planet and its history...
As Mr Mona is currently collecting material about the past of the lesser known people of Oerth, I am quite interested in what *iquander* is plotting... Maybe this will lead to such a *general overview* of the planet and its history...
This would be an interesting development.
One of the things about Chainmail that bugs me is that the background was formulated to suits a miniature battle game of factions, instead of the background being laid out and the factions naturally were taken from there.
It was more of a "We need to have a dwarf faction, an elf faction, a human faction, a humanoid faction, another bad guy faction, etc. Each will have its theme. Oh, and we might want to develop a little background for the various lands that fits with these themes too. "
This isn't really a good way to develop a campaign world. It seems a backward way to me, but with a game like this you want the forces to be very thematic. They achieved this. Plus they had to have a reason that all of the factions were always fighting (i.e. the purpose of the miniature battle game in the first place), and so Stratis and his wargear were created. Who wouldn't want to own the wargear of a god after all? The Dragon articles helped flesh it out the realms a bit, but the lost lands should have been a bit more mysterious. Certainly the east would have heard of a powerful Elven kingdom that has reined for most of the last few thousand years. The Suel or Baklunish surely would have made mention of them at some point in time. Instead there are just vague references to areas of the far west, none of which were incorporated in the Chainmail setting. But that tends to happen when things are forced into place.
As to Thalos, it is not really a villainous place. The human Thalos forces abound with paladins and clerics in the game. Perhaps the Dragon articles portray Thalos in a different light, though I do not recall if it does or not.
The Communist Dwarves did particualrly irk me though. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
The "feel" of the Chainmail realms is not even close to that of the WoG is.
IMO, it doesn't have to be, since, simply put, the Chainmail region is not even close to Eastern Oerik, where the Flanaess is. The empty wastes of the Sea of Dust and the sparsely populated Baklunish west lands provide the possibility of drastic cultural, technological and magical differences between the two realms. I don't really worry about what's off to the far west anyway when running my game, so I have no problem putting the Chainmail stuff over there and borrowing an idea or two.
I think Chris Pramas took a good approach in putting Chainmail on Oerth, but far enough away to not meddle in the affairs of Greyhawk. Gives us an opportunity to use it without major revision to one setting or the other, if we're so inclined.
OTOH...
Ivid wrote:
Officially seen, Chainmail should certainly be regarded canon... It was an offically product, after all.
Sure, but it wasn't an official Greyhawk product. So while I'm not opposed to using it if a DM is so inclined, DMs who dislike it should feel no obligation to do so. _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
The Nippon Isles will be my next Oerthian baby as soon as my current stuff about the Griffs is finsihed... Thinking about playing *lean and hungry* there, an adventure of the Penumbra line...
Talmeta did some excellent articles here on Canonfire regarding the "Sunela" region, which replaces the "Zindia" realm on the Dragon Annual Oerth Map, just north on mainland Oerik from the "Nippon" Island chain.
I've toyed with having the Nippon Isles be populated by seafaring, raid and pillage minded Hobgoblins, but I don't have anything concrete to show off yet.
The only thing I must beg and plead anyone detailing Nippon to do is, change the name for god's sake!!!
Nippon.... _________________ What would Raxivort do?<br />
My idea is to connect as series of the Penumbra adventures from *The Maiden Voyage* starting in Greyhawk city to *Lean and Hungry*, placed there and then *Gloom Keep* and *The Last Dance* in the south of the Amedio Jungle, which in my in is magically caught in an eternal winter...
The name, err, well, I think they will have had their reasons...
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Now, about the Celestial Imperium, Ruujin (Nippon) and "The Empire of Lynn" . . . 
