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Here there be pirates
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Master Greytalker

Joined: Jun 29, 2001
Posts: 777
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Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:01 pm  
Here there be pirates

http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=734&mode=thread&order=0&thold=-1

Very interesting. And while I agree with your preliminary statement that there does not seem to be the trade to support large scale piracy from the Hold of the Sea Princes and the Pomarj, you appear to have missed several critical elements.

III
Your list of ports does not include Monmurg or any of the ports on rivers directly accessible to the sea such as Niole Dra, Greyhawk, and Rel Mord. While the first may just be an oversight, the others are a serious error. The markets these cities present is of great relevance to overall trade.

Q 1
You suggest that Nyrond and the Iron League did not trade with the South Province. Again, I must strongly disagree. Except during times of outright war, and even then in too many cases, ships traded with otherwise enemy nations with gleeful abandon. I doubt any merchants of those nations would desire to travel an extra 500 miles or more round trip just to exchange goods in Hardby instead of trading directly because the Overking might get upset.

Q 2
Looking at those simple lists of resources can be quite misleading. Among other things, it would be wrong to think that every nations produces every kind of food or cloth. While you mention wine and spices, you fail to fully consider what other food or cloth, luxury or staple, might be worth carrying. Grains almost certainly not, but spices, citrus, wine, and silk should be high up on the list, and quite attractive to pirates.

IV
You cede the Azure way too quickly to the Scarlet Brotherhood. First and foremost, their fleet was shattered at the Battle of Gradsul at the end of the war. Second, they have lost most if not all of the fleets of the Hold of the Sea Princes, Onnwal, and Idee when they lost control of those lands. That leaves them with their fleet, the fleet of the Lordship of the Isles, and whatever remains of the other fleets they conquered. With those ships they must maintain a blockade of Onnwal, maintain the interdiction of Hepmonaland, fight a civil war in the Hold of the Sea Princes, and maintain their own holdings. After that, they have very little to spare for any additional control operations.

Q
Trade occurs very simply in such a situation. Relmor Bay is definitely open to trade, as the United Kingdom of Ahlissa has no problems trading with Nyrond. Between the two of them and Irongate, they force the passage past Onnwal and into the Wooly Bay. From the west, Keoland and the Principality of Ulek have a combined vested interest in maintaining trade around the Pomarj, while the Principality has a key interest in crushing any Pomarj pirates the moment they appear. That ensures trade from the Sheldomar valley into the Wooly Bay and Relmor Bay.

V.
See above for why the wine (luxury food and cloth trade) would be flourishing.

Addendum
In regards to pre-wars piracy and the mention of the Hold of the Sea Princes, you fail to note the specific timeframe involved for the cycle of piracy in and around Jeklea Bay. Prior to Tavish the Great it existed to interdict the spice trade to Keoland from the Amedio Jungle. During the reign of Tavish III it grew to again interdict that trade. But following his death, and the death of the Sea Prince during the reign of Tavish IV, the Hold of the Sea Princes gave up piracy and turned to honest trade. This is key in seeing the patterns of development of piracy on the Azure Sea, and should not be overlooked.
Grandmaster Greytalker

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Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:00 pm  

Nice piece GVD.

Just to toss in my two bits:

I would also note that “piracy” need not have an overly technical definition. Privateers, or at least the relationship between piracy and governments could be considered. In U1, the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, there were smuggles of weapons and brandy and in the A series there were the yellow sails of the Slavers. The Vikings traded, raided and took other ships.
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Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:45 pm  
Re: Here there be pirates

Samwise wrote:
http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=734&mode=thread&order=0&thold=-1

Very interesting. And while I agree with your preliminary statement that there does not seem to be the trade to support large scale piracy from the Hold of the Sea Princes and the Pomarj, you appear to have missed several critical elements.

III
Your list of ports does not include Monmurg or any of the ports on rivers directly accessible to the sea such as Niole Dra, Greyhawk, and Rel Mord. While the first may just be an oversight, the others are a serious error. The markets these cities present is of great relevance to overall trade. .


I do not see Monmurg as a major trading port, more as one more home to pirates.

Niole Dra I encompassed in my thoughts with Gradsul as they share the same outlet to the sea.

RelMord, I simply do not see as a point of origin for much seagoing trade but rather a center for overland trade. The coastal cities of Nyrond would seem to obviate the need for Rel Mord to become essentially an inland port.

Greyhawk I see as more an inland port of the Nyr Dyv than Wooly Bay. Hardby, much like the coastal ports of Nyrond, obviates, and to an extent precludes, the need for Greyhawk to be a major port for both the Nyr Dyv and Wooly Bay.

Samwise wrote:

Q 1
You suggest that Nyrond and the Iron League did not trade with the South Province. Again, I must strongly disagree. Except during times of outright war, and even then in too many cases, ships traded with otherwise enemy nations with gleeful abandon. I doubt any merchants of those nations would desire to travel an extra 500 miles or more round trip just to exchange goods in Hardby instead of trading directly because the Overking might get upset.
.


While small scale coastal trade would never be completely absent for the reasons you set out, large scale trade between major concerns would be restricted or absent for large periods of time, particularly as regards anything that might be regarded as "strategic" trade, even in times of ostensible "peace."

Samwise wrote:

Q 2
Looking at those simple lists of resources can be quite misleading. Among other things, it would be wrong to think that every nations produces every kind of food or cloth. While you mention wine and spices, you fail to fully consider what other food or cloth, luxury or staple, might be worth carrying. Grains almost certainly not, but spices, citrus, wine, and silk should be high up on the list, and quite attractive to pirates..



I do not disagree as to the possible list of valuable cargos but most of these would classify as one type of luxury good or another and would be unlikely to be traded in volume sufficient to sustain widespread and long standing piracy, particularly given "canon" populations.

The other factor is the sufficiency of overland trade to satisfy demand. In a number of cases, caravans might be safer and just as effective over shorter distances within a trade network when considering these cargoes. Seaborn trade is best when dealing with bulky cargoes or when distance demands it (e.g. spices from across the Azure Sea)

I think wine, being bulky and a luxury good by some measure, makes a very nice fit.

Samwise wrote:

IV
You cede the Azure way too quickly to the Scarlet Brotherhood. First and foremost, their fleet was shattered at the Battle of Gradsul at the end of the war. Second, they have lost most if not all of the fleets of the Hold of the Sea Princes, Onnwal, and Idee when they lost control of those lands. That leaves them with their fleet, the fleet of the Lordship of the Isles, and whatever remains of the other fleets they conquered. With those ships they must maintain a blockade of Onnwal, maintain the interdiction of Hepmonaland, fight a civil war in the Hold of the Sea Princes, and maintain their own holdings. After that, they have very little to spare for any additional control operations..


Here, I was following fashion. I have before railed against the Azure Sea being considered a Scarlet pond but it seems to be the prevailing sentiment. Certainly, the options open up as the reach of the SB becomes more confined or better yet, IMO, removed.

Samwise wrote:
Q
Trade occurs very simply in such a situation. Relmor Bay is definitely open to trade, as the United Kingdom of Ahlissa has no problems trading with Nyrond. Between the two of them and Irongate, they force the passage past Onnwal and into the Wooly Bay. From the west, Keoland and the Principality of Ulek have a combined vested interest in maintaining trade around the Pomarj, while the Principality has a key interest in crushing any Pomarj pirates the moment they appear. That ensures trade from the Sheldomar valley into the Wooly Bay and Relmor Bay.

V.
See above for why the wine (luxury food and cloth trade) would be flourishing.


Here again, much depends on how one sees matters. Obviously, no firm facts exist. The emphasis on "pirates" in a number of canon sources and a general feeling that the SB owns the Azure, however much you or I might disagree, would greatly impede the scenario you set out above.

Samwise wrote:

Addendum
In regards to pre-wars piracy and the mention of the Hold of the Sea Princes, you fail to note the specific timeframe involved for the cycle of piracy in and around Jeklea Bay. Prior to Tavish the Great it existed to interdict the spice trade to Keoland from the Amedio Jungle. During the reign of Tavish III it grew to again interdict that trade. But following his death, and the death of the Sea Prince during the reign of Tavish IV, the Hold of the Sea Princes gave up piracy and turned to honest trade. This is key in seeing the patterns of development of piracy on the Azure Sea, and should not be overlooked.


Smile Not having the benefit of "Samcanon" when I wrote, I was forced to rely on what I could glean from the scribes at TSR and Wotc. Wink
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GVD
Grandmaster Greytalker

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Sat Oct 01, 2005 7:46 pm  

Wolfsire wrote:
Nice piece GVD.

Just to toss in my two bits:

I would also note that “piracy” need not have an overly technical definition. Privateers, or at least the relationship between piracy and governments could be considered. In U1, the Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh, there were smuggles of weapons and brandy and in the A series there were the yellow sails of the Slavers. The Vikings traded, raided and took other ships.


Agreed! You anticipate my next topical submission, which sticks with a piratical theme. Happy
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GVD
Master Greytalker

Joined: Jun 29, 2001
Posts: 777
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Sun Oct 02, 2005 7:21 am  

Quote:
Not having the benefit of "Samcanon" when I wrote, I was forced to rely on what I could glean from the scribes at TSR and Wotc.


That's not Samcanon. That (the change from piracy to merchant trading) is stated outright in the history of the Hold of the Sea Princes in the '83 set. That combines with why Monmurg is in fact a relevant source of trade on the Azure Sea.
The only thing particularly specific to me are the more focused attributions of various rulers. But even they can be gleaned from the LGJ Keoland article by Gary Holian, leaving just pointing out the connections, and filling in background color for me.

Quote:
The other factor is the sufficiency of overland trade to satisfy demand. In a number of cases, caravans might be safer and just as effective over shorter distances within a trade network when considering these cargoes. Seaborn trade is best when dealing with bulky cargoes or when distance demands it (e.g. spices from across the Azure Sea)


The problem with caravans is the increased cost of transport across open ground with poor or no roads, or across poor terrain.
To get from the Sheldomar to the Velverdyva one can either sail around the Pomarj, up to Greyhawk, across the Nyr Dyv, and into Dyvers. Long, but not atrocious. The overland routes however are a choice between crossing the Lortmils, or wandering over 500 miles up across the Gran March, into Bissel, across part of Veluna, and then into Mitrik or Devarnish. While it might be 1/3 the distance overland, without a high quality road it will be 2-3 times as long as the sea route, and as, if not more, dangerous at several points.

Quote:
While small scale coastal trade would never be completely absent for the reasons you set out, large scale trade between major concerns would be restricted or absent for large periods of time, particularly as regards anything that might be regarded as "strategic" trade, even in times of ostensible "peace."


But we aren't talking about strategic trade, merely luxury trade. And as such it would never be interrupted.
As for scale, how large a scale would we ever be talking about? This is still a basically medieval to early Renaissance tech level, and the trade would be limited to that.
Still, naval trade would be significantly easier than land trade across such a border, as the number of "roads" is much greater, and the number of guards and "guard posts" significantly smaller. All making naval trade much preferred.
Grandmaster Greytalker

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Mon Oct 03, 2005 7:15 am  

GVD: “I think wine, being bulky and a luxury good by some measure, makes a very nice fit.”

Just some thoughts in relation to that statement. I recall that the wine of ancient time was concentrated (and heavy in lead contaminants), and was diluted for consumption. It would still be bulky. I would guess it would be about 1/2 the weight while brandy would be about 1/10, but would not replace wine. Just working at the margins.

GVD: “Agreed! You anticipate my next topical submission, which sticks with a piratical theme.”

Looking forward to that!
Adept Greytalker

Joined: Aug 10, 2003
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Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:47 pm  
Azure Sea Theories

Following a few thoughts on this thread:

I agree with most here that the Azure is simply too vast to be considered a 'SB pond'. There is simply too much area to cover and too many variables to have one human based power so dominate the waterways.

That being said, this is a fantasy ocean, and there are other powers besides the human ones available to exert control over trade routes. I put forth a theory that in order for the SB to reasonably exert any control over the Azure, they would need help from the dominant undersea race, the sahuagin. I expressed this theory in my CF article linked here:


http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=396&mode=&order=0&thold=0

I never miss a chance to refer to my own articles ;-)

Anyway, even with a full blown SB and sahuagin alliance, the other sea powers are strong enough to still have existing trade routes that are profitable. Obviously, these traders would have to be dealing in cargo that makes the trip worth it, as well as appropriately well defended.

Sea trade in the Azure, while perilous, with its weather, sea monsters, sahuagin, SB, and pirates; still can be advantageous to land trade in some instances.

As I see it, the SB is able to fully block a few narrow spots (such as the Tilva, between Onnwall and the Pomarj, and past the Olman Islands). Their grip across the coasts of the Amedio and Hepmonaland may be pretty high as well, but there is a lot of coastline to allow pirates to set up secret bases to break the blockade.

The SB has some stregnth to enforce a blockade, but a lot of their power comes from perception rather then reality. They control a lot of area because their fleets have become 'boogey-men' as the results of a few well publicized successes at the end of the Greyhawk Wars (such as their attempted invasion of Gradsul - this act may have been doomed to failure, but the mere fact it occured would be enough to rattle the confidence of the Keoish merchant fleets enough to cut down on their trade).

Gradually, the merchant fleets of Keoland, Greyhawk, Ahlissa, grow bold enough to challenge the blockades and start running trade again. But the myth of SB supremacy keeps the 'Azure is a SB pond' talk the common knowledge and results in a much more cautious merchant fleet.

As always, specifics can and should be tailored to meet the individual DM's needs. I'm just throwing in my two coppers.

O-D
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