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    Canonfire :: View topic - Liberation of Geoff
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    Liberation of Geoff
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Sun Nov 13, 2005 8:15 pm  
    Liberation of Geoff

    Hello all. I have asked this before, and didnt get enough response so I thought I would ask again.

    The Liberation of Geoff seems to be an odd piece in the canon of Gran March in that it seems to be generally ignored. This makes a certain amount of sense as it bends history some what.

    How does anyone see it playing into the current or future of Gran March? The antagonists (the Sakhut) is generally ignored by everyone as a power base in discusions of the WoGH.

    Where, if anywhere does it fit? If it is canon, is all of it canon?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Mon Nov 14, 2005 2:05 am  

    The whole of it fits into canon- it basically is canon. Allusions to the Sakhut, or at least to their cloud lair is made in the LGG entry for Geoff under the final sedtin entitled "Conflicts and Intrigues". The section is as follows:

    Rumors that Owen I intends to move his capital to Hochoch causes consternation anmong the leaders of the Knights of the Watch, who have designs upon a reconquered Geoff. The Oytwood and Dim Forest sylvan elves are on increasingly unfriendly terms. Owen's heir, Count Hustin, who vanished in 587 CY, was recently revealed by divination to be alive and "amid the sky."

    People simply do not talk all that much about the material within "Against the Giants: The Liberation of Geoff", but not beacuse the material isn't interesting or isn't canon. I simply think people talk more often about what has NOT been covered as of yet.
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 13, 2002
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    From: Orlane, Gran March

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    Mon Nov 14, 2005 6:25 am  
    THanks

    Thanks, Cebrion, that is a good start. I actually had missed that entry. I take it then, that the Sakhut is still a secret to the rest of the Flaness? It seems unlikely to me, but if that is the concensus, so be it. If so much can be known about the SB or Iuz, it seems unlikely that the Sakhut could remain hidden from divination.

    Or maybe its that there just isnt that much in the way of resource going into discovering who is behind the Giants?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:03 am  
    Re: THanks

    Anced_Math wrote:
    Thanks, Cebrion, that is a good start. I actually had missed that entry. I take it then, that the Sakhut is still a secret to the rest of the Flaness?


    I'm pretty sure that the government of Keoland knows what's going on.

    Mike
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:16 am  

    PLEASE NOTE: MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS FOR MODULES G1 - 3

    I'm just about to start The Queen of Spiders Campaign which I have re-writtten to be played with 3.5ed rules. The first part of this campaign are modules G1, 2 & 3. These modules were the first appearance of information about the giant incursions in the Sheldomar Valley. Not much details were put into the effects on the Geoff, Sterich and the Yeomanry instead the focus was made on going behind the scenes.

    The adventurers follow a trail from the steading of the hill giant chief to the glacial rift to the halls of King Snurre where finally eveidence of the driving force behind the organised giant raids are found...yup - you might have guessed it ...the drow.

    The modules where they do deal with the Sheldomar tend to focus more on Sterich and the strange occurrences at Istivin (also explaining some hinted referrences about Querchard in LGG).

    The Against the Giants: Liberation of Geoff booklet I actually found to be disappointing. Although it is part of the same series of events - it may as well not have been. Here the instigators are the Sakhut. You can justify the differences in a number of ways but to me it's sloppy. I have chosen to use some of the material about locations in Geoff but the Sakhut have been tossed to the wayside in favour of keeping the originally intended villains, the drow worshippers of the Elder Elemental God as the power behind the giants. I kind of feel reluctant to accept anything in the Liberation of Geoff as canon. Especially with locations named Tika Town and random cameo appearance of somebody's personal roleplaying group's characters.

    I have decided to keep Mogthrasir as Snurre's 'provincial governor' of Geoff as King Snurre's Hall is actually located level with the Hold of Sea Princes.

    The locations of the steading, glacial rift and fire giant hold are true to the original modules however.

    So I'd just like to issue some caution to taking all the contents of The Liberation of Geoff at face value in favour of looking back to the older and more original canon of modules G1, 2 & 3
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 14, 2005 8:29 am  
    Ok

    Ok,

    This is more where I thought this would go. If I understand correctly, there are two canon ideas on what happened here... the Spider Queen Series and the Liberation. I suppose this does not affect most of the world, as it is such an isolated nation, however, it is giving me fits in the GM project.

    WIth that in mind, I am asking for general input on resolving the differences between the two. I have to agree with wolfling that the Liberation includes some poor material, including silly names.

    Personally I was not impressed with motivations and actors behind the Sakhut, but I can overcome such opinions. All thoughts and opinions welcome.

    Anced.
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    Mon Nov 14, 2005 5:36 pm  
    Suggested resolution

    Anced

    If I recall correctly, the frost giants in G2 had a cloud giant visitor/guest that was considering throwing in his lot with the alliance (either that, or I added one to provide continuity between G1-3 and Against the Giants...it's been awhile and I just don't recall...).

    In any event, in our campaign, we made this visitor a representative of the Sakhut. When the drow initiative collapsed, the Sakhut were the strongest partners of the alliance (actually pretty much the only ones still standing) and they actually took over and rebuilt. This took the many years between G1-3 and Against the Giants and involved pulling together the survivors of the drow/giant alliance and intimidating other tribes into joining the fold. As it turns out, the Sakhut built a much more effective organization than the drow, and when they had established a sufficient power base they were able to launch an outright invasion/conquest of the human lowlands as opposed to just conducting the Viking-like raiding of the earlier drow/giant effort.

    A tenuous thread perhaps, but it made sense to us at the time...
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2004
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    Tue Nov 15, 2005 6:05 am  

    I think that Kragen's idea is definitely a possible option...I have one main for and one main against...the against is that after slogging through the UnderOerth, battling Lolth and finally liberating the western Sheldomar the PCs return to the surface vinctorious - but wait - they're not - they have to start all over again liberating the land from the giants...this could be quite frustrating and anticlimactic...

    the for is that after liberating STerich and Geoff the PCs may have been granted land or holdings in Geoff - all of a sudden they have a new vested interest in the land and defending it once again from would be invaders.

    One problem I have though is...why Geoff? It's very pretty and everyone is terribly nice but should there be more to it? Maybe Geoff is just a victim of location and circumstance...easy pickings? Or maybe there was a reason Eclavdra and then the Sakhut wanted Geoff. Don't forget the involvement of the mysterious Elder Elemental God. Geoff does also border ontot he Valley of the Mage - perhaps its proximity to this place is another factor.

    If you wanted to involve the Sakhut in the original time frame then perhaps they are succesfully wooed by the drow and by Snurre. There were cloud giant emissaries in all three giant strongholds. Geoff is quite some distance from King Snurre's lair which is practically level with the Sea Princes...a land so far from the centre of authroity might need a strong overlord. However I actually prefer the idea of Mogthrasir being sent by his kinsman / brother Snurre to act as 'viceroy' of Geoff. The idea of the Sakhut taking background control over Snurre's brother would possibly rankle with him - this could be the point I guess or at least not a large problem.

    I think if you wanted to include the Sakhut then it makes sense to have them as a presence during events of Queen of Spiders..but perhaps as the Steading and Glacial Rift fall an opening for the Sakhut to take over appears...maybe Lolth is meddling to compromise Eclavdra. By the end of the campaign the Sakhut are now unchallenged and assume their rule of tyranny over the other giants?

    I think the Sakhut should only be included if you want to prolong the Queen of Spiders campaign and I think perhaps there should be a better reason why they are interested in Geoff.

    I personally am setting my campaign quite early on in the invasion - and trying to involve Sterich as much as Geoff although most of the PCs are from Geoff so here the focus will lie. I want them to experience the full effect of a giant invasion that took out nearly three lands rather than seeing the end result of one remote region.

    There is also the mystery of the vanished giant king Galmood who was nowhere to be seen when Keoish and Sterish forces marched on Istivin.
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 15, 2005 12:58 pm  
    understand

    Ok, I suppose I should explain my reasoning for asking this question in th first place, and unfortunatley it is not for the chance to torture my party.. they all died in Castle Maure (in a hideous TPK) some time back and will not be kicking giant butt anytime soon.

    I am working on the Gran March Gazateer and I am attempting to keep that product in line with Canon works as much as possible. Our philosophy is to "color inside the lines," so to speak. We are detailing a great deal, and it is information that is simply untouched by Canon authors for the most part. BUT.. there is this nagging problem of Geoff. Who is outhere, is it the Sakhut? Should we ignore that altogeather? Stick with the more popular G Series as it stood, or use the world of the GDQ series? Create some odd reconciliation of the two? We are not absolutely beholden to Canon.. sometimes it just doesnt make sense. But if we are going to violate it, we prefer to do so with intention. Here, it is an open question. Canon/not canon/quasi canon?
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:42 pm  

    As to reconciling the G series to the GDQ Queen of Spiders and the Liberation of Geoff, there really isn't much of a problem there.

    The G series is the basic tournament style adventure trilogy, yet it is a bit more than a dungeon crawl rat maze type of tournament adventure.

    Queen of Spiders sought a means of not only integrating the whole GDQ series into an ongoing plot line that began in Temple of Elemental Evil, it sought to further develop the plot by getting more into the players behind the scenes, as was the case with Scourge of the Slave Lords(the A series compilation).

    Liberation of Geoff once again follows this idea, the authors choosing to explain that the giants themselves are not just the dupes of the drow, but are part of an entire giant conspiracy headed up by the most powerful of the evil giants, the cloud giants. The machinations and politics of the giants are further presented by introducing the various clans of the giants involved, in particular the frost giants, and by introducing the factions within each of the giant races.

    Each publication is simply a more detailed version of what came before, with regards to what it covers. Liberation of Geoff is for people who want as much giant as drow in their GDQ campaigns(as both work relatively seemslessly together), or who want to fight the surface war rather than the war in the Underdark.

    As to the Sakhut being common knowledge, It would make sense that a city in the clouds that nobody can see would represent an unknown quantity to most people, including the leaders of most neighboring nations. Most wouldn't know of the presence of cloud giant advisors, let alone that they have a city so close to Geoff. Unless any cloud giant advisor was actually captured alive and induced to answer questions about the cloud giant(Sakhut) involvement in things, nobody would have any reason to assume that the cloud giants were anything other than visitors, as the giants in the majority and that are causing the problems are not cloud giants. Such cloud giant advisors, being wily in their evilness, might even hint that they were there to convince the other giants to quit stirring up trouble, as cloud giants are also known to be neutral good as well after all.

    The Sakhut are in Geoff. Kind of. They float far above it, literally looking down upon the subjugated lands. That being said, they are the rulers once removed. The direct rulers of the lands of Geoff are the Sakhut’s lackeys- other giants; mostly fire and hill giants. The frostys stay more to the colder climes of the high mountains, but I imagine they come down into the Geoff lands in the winter time more. Information on the state of Geoff can be pulled straight from the LGG and from the Liberation of Geoff, which details many of the giant controlled areas.

    Irregardless, it is OK to put things into an area background that nobody knows about. In general the Sakhut are an unknown. Either that or those of power who know of them do not see them as a large enough threat to take seriously, or do not have the means to seriously threaten them on their home turf. Nobody in the Gran March is in a position to really do anything about them at any rate. Finding out about and dealing with the Sakhut is where the adventurers come in of course. Wink
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 16, 2005 5:51 am  

    That's a pretty good bringing together of the strands, there Celbrion.

    As to why the Sakhut are in Geoff specifically, I can't recall the motivations discussed in LoG, but two guesses would be: (a) Geoff's relative isolation meant they probably had a good chance to hold what they took (a pretty good guess as it happened) and on a more long term goal stage (b) the Cup and Talisman of Al Akbar, which the King of the Valley Olve gave into the keeping of the Dukes of Geoff.

    The Sakhut came out of the west (which is where the Bakluni probably came out of - see the thread on the origins of the Oerids elsewhere on this forum). The King of the Valley Olve marched with a large contingent of his people into the Crystalmists (and whence from there?). Coincidence? Perhaps, but it's nice to speculate to causes and effects. :)

    If there's no more compelling motivations given in LoG (aside from conquest and plunder (yawn)), then the Cup and Talisman might have been a significant motivation.

    P.
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    Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:11 am  

    I like the ideas of reconciling the drow and Sakhut control of the giant and humanoid armies on the basis of time (history), the Sakhut seizing the opportunity presented by the fall of House Eilservs.

    Because I've recently started a campaign set in Sterich in CY 590, I was recently reviewing G1-2-3 (1981) and was intrigued by mention of a "Lord of the Ogre Magi," whose five emmisaries were visiting Jarl Grugnur, who was about to celebrate a special wassail with them before they returned home, bearing a written offer of gems and loot in order to join the war upon mankind in the Jarl's territory. Id. at 13.

    The prisoners also intrigued me. As you may recall, Jarl Grugnur held a comely storm giantesss, and King Snurre held a drugged titan. Id. at 13, 23.

    Finally, while Nosnra feted a cloud giant guest (with an intelligent magical sword), a cloud giant noble and his lady from the Ulsprue Mountains occupied one of Snurre's guest chambers. Id. at 4, 26. A few rakshasas were also visiting King Snurre. Id. at 20.

    There were also several small groups of stone giants, supporting the giants. Monsters all around!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:06 am  
    Re: Ok

    Anced_Math wrote:
    I have to agree with wolfling that the Liberation includes some poor material, including silly names.

    Personally I was not impressed with motivations and actors behind the Sakhut, but I can overcome such opinions. All thoughts and opinions welcome.
    Anced.


    I think the "Silly" names are from G1-G3?

    as an aside note, In developing the Sakhut for 3.x I would add class levels to the cloud giants or other giants in leadership roles

    Mike
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:14 am  

    mtg wrote:
    I like the ideas of reconciling the drow and Sakhut control of the giant and humanoid armies on the basis of time (history), the Sakhut seizing the opportunity presented by the fall of House Eilservs.

    Because I've recently started a campaign set in Sterich in CY 590, 23.


    You might want to check out the series of adventures from Dungeon involving the Giant plotline. There's a write up of Istivin too.

    Its interesting to see the drow in Sterich and the giants in Geoff from the perspective of the material in the LGG.

    Mike
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:22 am  

    mtg wrote:
    Because I've recently started a campaign set in Sterich in CY 590, I was recently reviewing G1-2-3 (1981) and was intrigued by mention of a "Lord of the Ogre Magi," whose five emmisaries were visiting Jarl Grugnur, who was about to celebrate a special wassail with them before they returned home, bearing a written offer of gems and loot in order to join the war upon mankind in the Jarl's territory. Id. at 13.
    <snip>
    Finally, while Nosnra feted a cloud giant guest (with an intelligent magical sword), a cloud giant noble and his lady from the Ulsprue Mountains occupied one of Snurre's guest chambers. Id. at 4, 26. A few rakshasas were also visiting King Snurre. Id. at 20.
    I have been aware of these references as well and have been working toward the nature of the Lord of the Ogre Magi for my ongoing Ull series. As the Sakhut came from the West iirc it only makes sense the exotic ogre magi have as well. Also Ull has a high population of regular ogres, maybe only second to the Cairn Hills-Abbor Alz. I envision the relatively unknown Ulsprues, detached from the Hellfurnace-Crystalmist-Barrier chain has its own culturally distinct giantkin society. Baklunish flavored Clouds, the tricky Ogre Magi, the Uli-consorting lesser ogres and more.
    Novice

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    Thu Dec 01, 2005 9:56 pm  

    Spoiler
    Long

    My main campaign is now going through G2 in 581, the WOTG date is actually 576. The Main attack was against Sterich, both by the Giants and by Lloth. There are dozens of factions, in the seven modules.

    The giants (probably not the same group, because they supposedly have been destroyed) again invaded Geoff during the Greyhawk wars, 582 - 584.

    From Living Greyhawk's Living Geoff web page, Rhys of Ash tells the story.
    "It's been a disastrous and woe-filled eight years. Sit. Sit. If you want to know the story, we must do it proper. I won't begin this tale with "once upon a time" because I know exactly when it starts. At the celebration of Brewfest in the 2733rd year since the Stone Pillars were raised (what other people call Flan Tracking) or Common Year 583. The year the giants came down.

    By the end of Patchwall, any doubts that Gyruff was in dire peril were laid to rest as the hastily assembled army of Gyruff met the giants and their allies at the horrific Battle of Pwyst's Rhyd (pweest's reed, tr. pest's crossing) in the western meadowlands.
    Owen the Brenin (brey-nin, tr. grand duke) sent pleas for aid to the court of the Dwarven Thane of Three Holds in the Crystalmists and to the court of the Wood Elven Prince in the Dim Forest. Called on again to see the message through, the heroes left Gorna and traveled into the mountains and into the forests as Tycha (teech-ah, tr. Tika Town) was overrun and burned.
    Panic and confusion set in, as Dersyth (der-sith, tr. west town) and Pregmere fell to the giants. Like most Gyric settlements, neither town was walled and could not stand against the onslaught. Dersyth was especially hard hit as the giants cut off the retreat of the residents. The giants ate long and well on the inhabitants at what some are calling the West Town Cookfires.
    Oytmeet successfully resisted for a time when they collapsed the bridges across the Oyt River. But the giants filled in the river with large stones until they could walk across it. The Gyri fled south, but many were captured and their fates were all too predictable.
    The stone walls of Gorna held the horde at bay for most of Ready'reat, as Owen the Brenin prepared a desperate last stand. But on the night before the attack, an assassin attempted to take the life of the Grand Duke. He was grievously injured, and many people speculated that he was dead. Attentions were distracted from this foul deed when, within an hour, the giants attacked. The army of Gyruff and the heroes summoned by the Brenin fought a bloody battle through the streets of Gyruff against the
    hordes. But little by little, they were forced to give way and retreat to the South Gate.
    Several thousand refugees fleeing south from Pregmere were not so lucky. They were caught by several parties of verbeeg giants at Hynwist's Ford southwest of Midwood, where they were massacred from the oldest man to the youngest infant. The Javan River was tinged with red for a
    week following the catastrophe.

    Hochoch fell by year's end."

    The story continues after that. I assume the eight years are about the liberation of Geoff adventures, distinclty separate, but related to the ongoing problems of Geoff and the Giants.

    I assume that those eight years are what the Liberation of Geoff is about.

    There are other notes that entities like Keoland, the Knight of the Watch, and other countries were all too busy fighting in the Greyhawk wars, or caught unaware, or just not interested, to come to the aid of Geoff.

    The dialogue in the Living Geoff story line(591-595) is that the Giants want the return of their homeland and that the battle of the Flan and the Giants for Geoff is actually 1000's of years old.

    The Living Geoff site has volumes of information about that. An interesting story.

    When the World of Greyhawk, about 1981, came around, I placed my existing Campaign in Geoff, in anticipation of playing the G1-2-3 series, as my player's home base. I researched the present history in anticipation of their return after defeating the Giants and Lloth.

    Also, in the Original G2, my memory tells me, the Cloud Giant is just a henchman to the Jarl. In the later GDQ1-7, he is interested in taking over.

    The GDQ module pulls this together with the beginnings of the original campaign, the Temple of Elemental Evil, T1-4, and the Scourge of the Slave Lords, A1-4, I believe. From the point of view of Sterich, Keoland, Geoff, and the Yeomanry, this point seems unimportant and not known. Their focus is on the Giant attacks from the Crystalmists and Helfurnaces.

    I don't know much about the Sakhut and the Liberation of Geoff published material, except form the point of view of being an outside observer of the Living Geoff Web site.

    I hope this is of help. The 7 year intermission between GDQ1-7 and The Invasion of Geoff is good story line. I've cut it down to 1 1/2 year or less in my world as I was finding out about the published material plot line, and since finding Living Greyhawk gazateer and Living Greyhawk, last December.
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    Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:21 am  

    I use Geoff and the Liberation of Geoff campaign setting as the basis for my Oerth campaign. The drow will play a part in this giant alliance against Geoff, but the Sakhut will be the main cause of it. I'll say that the drow are allies, but will decide that once the PC's begin to get close, they will withdraw, and Eclavdra, the epic-level drow leader, will return to her dealing in Iuz's court. The giants will have to fend for themselves, so to speak.

    My campaign in Geoff started with a female cleric of Beory, of Flan (and some Suel) ethnicity (yes I had the player take the cleric class, despite all lore that says Beory's clerics are actually druids), a female elvish ranger, barely out of her "teens", but already a seasoned veteran of the Giant occupation, and a gnomish rogue/wizard who is also an inventor (a human fighter was also in this beginning group, but was killed in the first adventure). Other characters have since joined, some from Oerth, and a few from other planes, to take on the giants. The PC's feel that more than one force could have rallied these usually-disparate clans and races of giants, but they have no hard and fast proof that any one of their ideas are actually true (they have no clue about the Sakhut yet).
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