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    Canonfire :: View topic - Shiboleth, suggestions on layout and feel for mapping
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    Shiboleth, suggestions on layout and feel for mapping
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:38 am  
    Shiboleth, suggestions on layout and feel for mapping

    As part of the Gran March Project, I have been called upon to produce a city map of Shiboleth. So ever the inquistive I throw the gauntlet down for other people to suggest how they see the city and if possible suggest real-world examples/equivalents.

    From what I have researched the big "S" is built on the ruins of Fleeth from the Occulded Empire, so few if any of the previous settlement's features would remain. Therefore the city was built primarily by the Keoish invaders, so does the city have a Keoish style of layout, if so just what is this?

    As a start I would suggest that the big "S" would have benefitted from this "planned city" approach, that is broad tree lined streets, plenty of gardens and sculptures (think centre of Paris as an example).

    There would be no major city defences, as the settlement lies in a safe region not known for conflict, other than a small cramped inner citadel long since used only for ceremonial purposes only.

    Scattered about the city would be a few remnants of the old Flan city, maybe ruins or a few towers.

    As the city is a stones throw from the Rushmoors I was considering creating a canal-network to drain what must be boggy land and also to link to the Rushflow river to the south (this also permits a large city to have access to the whole of the Sheldomar Valley via the river network).

    So does anyone else have ideas for specific buildings, quarters or features of the big "S"?

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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:24 am  

    Perhaps a Chapterhouse for the Knights of the Watch... or the Knights of Dispatch (or both)?

    Since the city is bounded by marsh to the west, and a river to the south, it would probably have levees, similar in form to (dare I say) New Orleans?
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:35 am  
    Correction

    Shiboleth rest on the ruins of a previous Flan city. It is speculated by scholars that it could be fleeth.. however, this cannot be proven. And there are counter claims for the location of Fleeth. What is known is that the city upon which Shiboleth rests was destroyed by Vecna for it's opposition to him.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:50 pm  

    Shiboleth lies along the banks of the westward branch of the Lort/Sheldomar river junction (as per the Dungeon magazine map). It might be a good idea to also have an outflow from the northeastern Rushmoors that joins this western river branch on the north side of the city. This outflow might be very wide, but shallow, allowing for marsh dwelling folk to transport rare/odd goods to the city. Perhaps the outflow that leads to the Rushmoors also leads to secret waterways (known to the marshfolk) through the Rushmoors that eventually link up with the Javan River system in the west.

    Considering the placement of the city in a crook between the westward running river branch and a northern marsh outflow (and with deepening marshland to the west), this gives the city a very defensible position due to the geography alone- an army would have to attack across a river or marshland. The land directly west of the city looks to get increasingly marshy, and efforts might be underway to drain and develop that land further out from the city for farming. As bridges would block upriver traffic (to Marlbridge and beyond) ferries would be the order of the day.

    As to city planning, this is a relatively modern concept. Newer portions of cities might be planned as the city grows beyond the limits of a simple village or large town. As such, the city should be a mix of the both planened and no-planned, particularly as the city is built over the ruins of a previous city that may have had foundations which would be natural places for buildings to once again be erected.

    So perhaps an old Flan city plan with added Keoish influences would be appropriate. Maybe a few of the old Flan ruins have been rebuilt, such that scattered among the Keoish architecture is some old Flan architecture too.

    Just some ideas.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:40 pm  

    Not necessarily canon, but... Given the relatively safe location (far from hostile territory) and the presumably soft ground near the Rushmoors, my Shiboleth is surrounded by a log palisade rather than thick stone walls.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 18, 2005 7:24 pm  

    Shiboleth is near the ruins of Vecna's unnamed capital. (As in close enough for government work.)
    That would definitely not be Fleeth, which was a town that Vecna destroyed utterly.
    That river would be the uppermost reaches of the Sheldomar.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 19, 2005 12:53 am  

    Quote:
    Shiboleth lies along the banks of the westward branch of the Lort/Sheldomar river junction (as per the Dungeon magazine map).


    Mmm according to the WoG '83 map Shiboleth is not on a river (one of the many settlements that does so) and this is the map that the Project has used as its basis, not the newer version. So this has called for a a major tributary that does lead into the river network.

    Great ideas so far, so what would a vistor see as they approached Shiboleth? What would be their first sights and impressions?
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 19, 2005 4:49 am  

    Yabusama wrote:
    Mmm according to the WoG '83 map Shiboleth is not on a river (one of the many settlements that does so) and this is the map that the Project has used as its basis, not the newer version. So this has called for a a major tributary that does lead into the river network.


    Remember the old caveat about Darlene's "artistic interpretation" with the original maps: if a city or town is within one hex of a waterway, consider it a port. Asperdi, Calbut, Chathold, Chendl, Critwall, Cryllor, Delaric, Eastfair, Glot, Highfolk, Innspa, Irongate, Johnsport, Knurl, Leukish, Longspear, Mitrik, Narwell, Nellix, Nevond Nevnend, Niole Dra, Oakenhart, Radigast City, Rauxes, Rookroost, Sefmur, Shiboleth, Soull, Torrich, Westkeep, Wintershiven, Womtham — all these places are supposed to have been built on the water.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:18 am  

    Sounds good to me, Shiboleth sits on the north bank of the Rushflow Happy
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Nov 20, 2005 1:17 am  

    DM Prata beat me to it. Yep, they are all port cities.

    As to what visitors will see....

    If the town is even walled, it probably doesn't have a large fortified wall. At the most a sturdy crenellated stone wall(15' to 20' high maximum) with a wooden walk way behind it. Depends on how much strife the town has seen in the past or recently- if little to none, then there might not even be a fully enclosed wall. The rivers and marsh protect it well enough from massed invaders so perhaps there is only a wall on the west side stretching from the Rushflow in the south to the outflow(that I described earlier) to the north. This wall mainly keeps out the odd critter or few than comes from out of the swamps. The gate in the wall is...the Swamp Gate(or whatever).

    Merchants coming into town from the west by road or river would be checked by guards(that old Ketite paranoia in full force! Wink ). River traffic would be dependent on how vital and lively a city Shiboleth is. Farmland would be located mostly in the south and the east across the rivers where the land is best, though some farming takes place west of the city where the land is slowly being reclaimed from the marsh. Barges would bring the crops across the rivers and into the city proper; specifically to markets on the outskirts of town along the riverbank. The town market is right off of the wharves. Between river traffic and the east road heading into the town, the east/southeast area of town is the busiest. The western portion is quieter, and might be where more of the locals live and where craft businesses are located. Government buildings might be just west of the town center. Town guard would have a presence anywhere there are lots of foreigners coming in.

    "The earthy aroma from peat fires wafts across the town on cold days and during the evenings. Among the stalls of Shiboleth's market place, all manner of goods are for sale- from western silks and Furyondian steel, to lizardfolk scrimshaw and BBQ swamp eels on a stick. Rare herbs and swamp plants, reputed to have healing and other properties, are available from the local herbmongers."

    That last bit is some possible "atmosphere" for the place.
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 20, 2005 2:59 am  

    Quote:
    "The earthy aroma from peat fires wafts across the town on cold days and during the evenings. Among the stalls of Shiboleth's market place, all manner of goods are for sale- from western silks and Furyondian steel, to lizardfolk scrimshaw and BBQ swamp eels on a stick. Rare herbs and swamp plants, reputed to have healing and other properties, are available from the local herbmongers."


    I like this alot, gives the place a real feel.

    I have a further question, how wide would the Rushflow be at this point? Assuming that the Rushflow is a meandering river in the relatively flat floodplain of the Sheldomar Valley, and that the rivers source is a swamp, I think it is reasonable to assume the river is sluggish, heavily stained with the tanin of the rotting vegetation upstream.

    So I suggest the Rushflow is not quite a Mississippi (by any means) but a broad river at the very least, something in the range of 800-1000' in width?
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    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 20, 2005 6:18 am  
    THe River

    I would suggest, coming out of a swamp the size of the Rushmoors that the Rushflow is no where near 1000 across as a single stream... rather, there are numerous smaller tributaries, shallow, shifting and unavigable by anything other than shallow riverboats. As a mass, they may be much larger than 1000 feet, but each indavidual flow is only a couple of hundred fee.. Shiboleth would be on the first dry ground, maybe a bluff overlooking the riverbottom, the port several hundred or thousand yards from the city.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 21, 2005 3:23 pm  

    This may or may not help you in the city's layout, but it might be something to consider in designing aspects of the city and adventures in and around it. From wikipedia:

    "Shibboleth is the Hebrew word that literally means "torrent of water" or "stream".[1] In the Hebrew Bible, pronunciation of this word was used to distinguish members of a group whose dialect lacked a "sh" sound from members of a group whose dialect included such a sound. The consequences of getting it wrong were fatal:

    And the Gileadites seized the passages of the Jordan before the Ephraimites; and it was so, that when those Ephraimites who had escaped said, "Let me go over," that the men of Gilead said unto him, "Art thou an Ephraimite?" If he said, "Nay," then said they unto him, "Say now 'Shibboleth.'" And he said "Sibboleth," for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him and slew him at the passages of the Jordan; and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand. (Judges 12:5-6, King James Version of the Bible)

    Modern usage
    Today, "shibboleth" refers to words and phrases that can be used in a similar way—to distinguish members of a group from outsiders. The word is also sometimes used in a broader sense to mean specialized jargon, the proper use of which reveals speakers as members of a particular group or subculture. For example, people who regularly use words like "stfnal," "grok," "filk," and "gafiate" in conversation are likely members of science fiction fandom. Shibboleths can also be customs or practices, such as male circumcision."

    Just for the curious...
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:46 pm  

    Thanks for the explanation of the name Gargoyle, especially the last bit Shocked , but Anced has already come up with an origin of the town name that is a little less painful.
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:31 am  

    Just to lob something into the mix:

    As the city/town is on the edge of fenland - perhaps it's based on a clay island the way that Ely is in the Anglian Fens in England. So you'd approach it over flat fenlands (perhaps drained into wet pastures, perhaps not) - probably over a causeway (?) and see the town huddling onto a low rounded "island" of raised ground, perhaps girthed by an earthen dyke (or if it's dry enough and there's enough foundations, a low stone wall - even if the place hasn't seen wars, it is next to a huge marsh, with the attendant dangerous critters).

    A suggested layout for the Flan portion of the town would be a circular dyke (or a series of them) - in the manner of round Celtic forts and palace enclosures like Tara in Ireland (http://www.mythicalireland.com/ancientsites/tara/taramap.html)

    This would be what is buried under the city, but it might make itself evident in certain above ground features, like the layout of streets, the placement of importnat buildings or markets or artificial hills/commons etc.

    Just a few (hopefully helpful) suggestions.

    P.


    Last edited by Woesinger on Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:28 am; edited 1 time in total
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:41 am  

    Mmmm I like the Ely allusion, that could be a master-stroke Happy especially the idea of the roads being on causeways
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:11 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    ...perhaps girthed by an earthen dyke (or if it's dry enough and there's enough foundations, a low stone wall - even if the place hasn't seen wars, it is next to a huge marsh, with the attendant dangerous critters)...


    The symbol used on the original Darlene map indicates that Shiboleth is a "walled town," so a wall of some kind is non-negotiable (from a canon standpoint). As I stated earlier, my personal preference is for a wooden palisade as opposed to a curtain wall, given the soft earth.
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:30 am  

    My only problem with a rampart of earth topped with a wooden palisade is that for a town of I think 5-6,000 people it is more likely that a stone defence would be used, although this might cause problems if the ground was very swampy.
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 8:35 am  

    Yabusama wrote:
    ...this might cause problems if the ground was very swampy.


    That was my point. There has to be a wall of some type, but the ground there may not support the 10'–20' thick, 30' high stone wall that one might expect to see in a large settlement.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:54 am  

    So maybe a system of ditches and ramparts would be better, with the ditches floodable or already flooded.

    The earthern ramparts could be topped with gnarled spikey hedgerows instead of the standard wooden palisade?
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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:36 pm  

    Yabusama wrote:
    So maybe a system of ditches and ramparts would be better, with the ditches floodable or already flooded.

    The earthern ramparts could be topped with gnarled spikey hedgerows instead of the standard wooden palisade?


    That sounds like a good compromise. Smile
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Nov 22, 2005 6:43 pm  

    I agree. That is a very simple and effective method of defense. Just when you thought you'd gotten through the rivers and the marsh, you hit flooded ditches in front of steep earthen ramparts topped with spiked-log barricades, all the while being under murderous fire from those atop the ramparts.

    I like it. The floodable ditches in particular.

    You might also put in some smaller wooden drawbridges(footbridges really) for foot traffic, and a couple larger ones along the main city entrances that can accommodate a wagon, and that may be raised to fully surround the town with the flooded ditches. The town would be able to fortify itself initially in a matter of minutes, and flood the ditches within an hour or so. As an added defense, perhaps place a low stone wall ten feet high on the outside, with a ditch at the bottom, with the ground level behind the wall only being about 4.5 feet or so- just a comfortable height for a defender. The town would basically be built up a bit higher than the surrounding plain not only because of the ancient Flan foundation, but also to guard against the possible seasonal flooding.
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    Wed Nov 23, 2005 8:19 am  

    It has to be said…

    Listen, lad. I've built this kingdom up from nothing.
    When I started here, all there was was swamp. The king said I was
    daft to build a castle in a swamp, but I built it all the same,
    just to show 'em. It sank into the swamp. So, I built a second
    one. That sank into the swamp. So I built a third one. That
    burned down, fell over, then sank into the swamp. But the fourth
    one stayed up. An' that's what your gonna get, lad -- the strongest
    castle in these islands.

    MONTY PYTHON AND THE HOLY GRAIL
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    Wed Nov 23, 2005 9:33 am  

    Yabusama wrote "...Anced has already come up with an origin of the town name that is a little less painful." I think I missed that; what is Anced's name origin for Shiboleth?
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:19 am  

    The original name for the place was Shiuil Bol benth, or the Birthplace, and Anced has a tale of the background to this.

    And I guess Swamp Castle was bount to rear it's head, the parallel is not lost on me Laughing
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    Wed Nov 23, 2005 6:50 pm  
    The Earthen Dyke

    Well, in our works on architecture, and in discussion within our group, this area's hard architecture is composed of baked brick. There is some limestone, an outcropping of the geology of Barony MacAoidh. It is this last outcropping before the Rushmoors that determined the locatoin of Shiboleth. It is a small bluff overlooking the Rushmoors, located where it is primarily to guard against the denziens of the swamp.

    The Keoish conquerers learned early on that the rushmoors were much more difficult to conquer than the land around it.

    As to the source of Shiboleth, you will be able to view the history of the city soon. The article is done and awaiting post. For obivous reasons, I did not attribute it to Hebrew. However, I think when you see the write up, you will be pleased.
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    Thu Nov 24, 2005 2:58 pm  
    My humble thoughts

    Hello Everyone,

    I think that before defenses could/should be reflected upon, let's look at what the designers would have thought. Would the greater threat come from the Rushmoors or Ket? If it was the Rushmoors, then certainly flooded ditches would prove no real problem as any unified force would have already learned how to deal with water obstacles. If, however, the designers were concerned about cavalry and siege warfare, then they would have made flood plains. Maybe not heavily flooded, but enough to bog down invaders, make the ground soft and hopefully cause disease.

    I imagine Shiboleth being an upraised city on a sturdy reinforced island surrounded by a very wide, but shallow waterworks. The waterworks would serve a two fold purpose, namely defense and transportation. As the plains would have been cleared of trees, finding the materials to make siege engines would be difficult. Finding materials to breech the waterways would be just as difficult. The waterways would also make transportation very lucrative.

    Admittedly, I am touching on things that other folks have already said, but I have wanted to touch on them for a different purpose. What were the designers thinking in the first place? After the city was destroyed, perhaps the new founders/builders/conqueres decided that high walls and tall towers were not the way to go. Perhaps low mud brick buildings and narrow streets were the way to go. Cavalry would get ambushed easily if they made it inside and defending troops could make a very strong defence if the invaders had no "high vantage point" to overlook the city. I think a series of low, angled walls would be effective. Maybe even a star pattern? The city could even be built on a series of raised streets. The highest point would be the Citadel and government buldings. The next highest would be military and stores. The third would be functionary buildings and guildhouses, homes of the influential, etc. The next level would be daily business buildings with the lowest point being a broad area that could be flooded. There would be a wide wall to keep out defenders, but not necessarily a high wall. Even if invaders managed a foothold, they would just have a flooded area to stand in while archers rained a steely death on them from the many layers of city above.

    The pastures may not even be flood worthy themselves. Just make a series of canals (as mentioned by others) that crisscross. Also, any walk ways or roads could be the Asian style that were cut into the ground, as opposed to being raised above ground. Narrow roads make siege difficult. I imagine the beginning scene from the movie Princess Mononoke (sp?). Anyway, these are just some of my syaptic misfires. Smile If we could imagine where the threat is thought to be the greatest, then we might could see how the designers planned the city.

    New thought, perhaps the city designers used great magics and made a series of man made lakes to the north? This area wouldn't be marsh, but would be too "watery" to be used effectively by cavalry and heavy seige engines. Roads would be low raised and soft so that if an army did come through, the roads could be destroyed? An invader would have to travel around south the hit the city, but the attack point would be so narrow that the city designers would have created a fire tunnel that would limit the operational ability of the combined arms. There wouldn't be enough room for the army to spread around the city and everything would be tightly packed. One good fireball and what a mess. Send in a nasty little water elemental and that army has a real bad day. Can't get the seige engines to the front because the infantry needs to be ready to poor in. Can't get the infantry to the front because the seige engines need to open the walls and hit other defending seige engines.

    I miss the Wild Coast,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Nov 24, 2005 6:05 pm  

    Once again, I think it is a mistake to think in terms of "city planners" or "city designers". Medeival cities sprang up around the sprawl of towns. The "design" of the city should coincide not with some grand scheme, but with the topography of the area. The Flan ruins would be the same.

    The inhabitants of the new city would build off of the old as they could- yes, people alwasy take the easier route if it presents itself.

    As to protecting against various invaders, the Ketites are stopped by broad floodable ditches and simple ramparts/defenses while the Rushmoor critters(most of them likely being aquatic or skilled in waterborne travel) are foiled by the earthen ramparts/defenses.

    Citing the Swamp Castle theory, Shiboleth is a strong, raised area built upon the ruins of at least one previous city, so the city level could be higher than the flood plain. And you thought the Flan ruins were the oldest ones Shiboleth is built upon. Shocked

    Oh yes, gotsta have some really ancient and dank subterranean ruins below even the Flan ruins methinks; or at least rumors of some. Cool
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    Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:20 am  
    Timeline & Such

    Dwarf and Ceb, you both have hit upon excellent points. I should outline what has been laid down in other works that either we (the participants in the Gran March Project) are using or have written.

    First I do not think there is any canon on Shiboleth, other than it's placement on the Darlene map. Such is one of the reasons we chose the March, it has almost no Canon. There is mention of Shiboleth in Vecna Lives!, but I know of no other mention.

    We are using Samwise's Grand Sheldomar Timeline as a source for the project. He kindly gave us an advanced copy. The rest has been written by various members of the team. Unfortunatley, most is not ready for distribution.

    I will summarize the relevent points here. I realize that some may disagree, and we welcome your assistance in keeping ourselves from looking foolish. I just ask that you understand that this is part of a broader project. Yabs started this post to assist in detailing a map for the project.

    Points & Basis:

      Location - The Location of Shiboleth was determined by the Knights of the MARCH. They were the early predecessors of the KoW who were sent to subdue the March.

      The specific charc of the KoM was to guard against and destroy all remnants of Vecna and his armies, and subude the land.

      Shiboleth was placed to defend against encroachment of the Rushmoors, as the KoM could not conquer them.

      The exact location was chosen because there was the foundations of a previous city in a favorable location.

      The previous city was probably placed on the site because it sits on a limestone bluff raised above the level of the marsh. Yabs and I have discussed that this is an extension of the Geology of Barony MacAoidh (which unfortunately is not public domain yet, but Yabs did an excellent job). This probably means that the city is some miles from it's port (which is shallow anyway) and the land between the port and the city floods with heavy rain or seasonal flooding.

      Tavish later disbanded the KoM and created the KoM, and focused them on the new threat, the baklunish. This was two hundred years or so ago, and this is when the Capitol and focus shifted to the north and the City of Hookhill was founded.

      Bricks are the primary building material in the area, but Limestone is also available. It is possible that they had stone imported from the Lortmils, but this seems unlikely.

      As to city planning... Ceb your point is well taken. However, we have been envisioning the Keoish as having the engineering of the Romans (they get this from the Suel, but in the real world was largely forgotten by 900) and the metal working of the late medieval period. Like the Conquistadores, they had a military bent and a nearly endless supply of subjugated native labor.

      So I do see a planned city, at least the core. One designed around defense and the knights. Maybe a crusade era city would be approprite.

      How it has grown since the knights moved north, i dont know.
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    Fri Nov 25, 2005 2:23 am  

    Isn't Shiboleth a little far south to be realistically threatened by Ketite raiders?

    I mean, yes, back in the day when bands of western horsemen were pouring through the Fals Gap, I could see the occasional band roving as far south as the Rushmoors, but it'd have been too rare an event to have had an influence on the defences of the city (which would have been several centuries old in any case by the time the Brazen Horde started pushing raiders out of Ket).

    I'd say the main concern, defensively, would have been critters from the swamp. Spiked pallisades set on ditches with chevaux-de-fries to impede the advance of critters and create a killing ground for archers on top of the pallisade would be enough. If Shiboleth is built on firm foundations, then a stone wall with same is totally feasible (after all Ely, built on a clay island, has a great huge cathedral on it that hasn't sunk into the Fens - yet).

    It's probable that when the town was first settled by the Keoish after their conquest of the Sheldomar - they used the old Flan earthenworks as ortifications, as the town spread and grew these were probably extended - first as a ditch and then as a stone wall - if the threat from the creatures of the Rushmoors merited such an expense.

    In digging around on the web for details on East Anglian towns - I found this great resource with detailed annotated maps of places like Norwich, York, Ipswich and King's Lynn as they appeared in the Middle Ages. Anyone with an interest in building towns should take a look at these to get a flavour of medieval urban life:

    http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/norwmap2.html
    http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/norwmap1.html
    http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/yorkmap1.html
    http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/maldmap1.html
    http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/lynnmap1.html
    http://www.trytel.com/~tristan/towns/colcmap1.html

    The one on King's Lynn is especially interesting - with details of the various Gilds in the town and the buildings they owned.

    There's also some great transcripts of medieval legal documents on this site, that really give a flavour of life in a medieval town.

    Hope this is of help.

    P.
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    Fri Nov 25, 2005 6:19 am  

    Thanks for all the ideas, let me work through them and try and pick out particular favorite;

    East Anglican towns are a good start for medieval settlements in large marshy areas, and as always my maps are based on real settlements. Currently medieval Hull is my favorite. The whole idea of this thread was provoke discussion of a "different" feel for the map of Shiboleth, and I really like the idea of earlier flan earthworks being present, so my proposal for Shiboleth is;

    Location:
    Set in the "angle" of the Rushflow and a northern tributary river, Shiboleth sits upon the ruins of a earlier flannish settlement (which may or may not be Fleeth) . This land was chosen as it was a limestone bluff and drier than the surrounding fenland. The town has spilt over across this northern watercourse and onto a few marshy islands in the Rushflow itself. Surrounding the town are many drainage ditches crossed by small footbridges, with the major roads in and out of the place on raised dykes. These roads also cross drawbridges and woodenbridges where required.

    Defences:
    The eastern, northern and southern aspects of the city are un-walled as there are wide water defences. A few lookout towers dot these shores. The western approach to the city is defended by a series of earthworks (carried over from the original inhabitants), some of which are up to 50' feet. All of the ditches are easily flooded, and are naturally bog-like all year round. Atop the innermost rampart is a 10' thick hedge (tended to by marsh-druids and rangers?) intersperced with a stone towers.

    Layout:
    Echoes of the flan settlement are still visible, some of the towns wards are defined by the ditches and ramparts left over from the previous occupants. I like the idea of circular wards defined by these earthworks, whether this will work in practise is still to be seen. The is a large docks area and a small shipyrd conatined in the Port Ward, adjoining the Mercantile Ward. On the driest land is the City Ward, where the oldest buildings are located and the Watch's Chapter House is located. Outisde of the city's defences the urban sprawl has begun, with sveral sizable hamlets and villages growing up along the rivers edge, many again in old earthworks.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Fri Nov 25, 2005 11:45 pm  

    )ooo! ooo!

    Your description brings an idea to mind Yabusama. The dry side of town is where the oldest and sturdiest buidlings are, and the wet side is where the port is.

    Might not the port side of the town literally be built on massive pilings(like a modern wooden sea-side pier) and suspended above the increasingly boggy ground? If the lands gets boggier the closer it gets to the river, this would make for an interesting feature. The wharves are on pilings, and so are the walkways and buildings within couple hundred yards of the portside of town. The suspended wooden walkways eventurally become cobblestone, gravel, or dirt walkways/roads as the ground becomes more solid and less boggy.

    Just an idea( I like it anyways Wink).
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    Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:08 am  

    Cebrion, I envisaged an old town on a limestone bluff, and all around it increasingly boggy land as you move away from it, so your idea fits with mine perfectly Happy
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    Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:39 am  
    Excellent

    Wow, Excellent!

    I still envision a citadel though, as this is a town originally built by Knights. Maybe it is now used as the town hall, or a prison?

    Can you imagine how miserable a jail like that would be... Les Miserable! That could be one of the unfortunate trademarks of the city. THoughts?

    Anced
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    Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:43 am  
    Shiboleth

    Hello,


    I thought this Draft was posted somewhere, but apparently it has not been:

    DRAFT

    The History Of Shiboleth

    "In the early years after the destruction of the empire of Vecna, the Knights struggled to suppress the various Flan Tribes north of the Rushmoors. The Rushmoors themselves, the Knights were reticent to enter.

    Filled with quicksand, disease ridden insects, and poisonous creatures of ever description, this area was treacherous by any standard. The evershifting waterways, trackless marshes, and endless expanses of rushes were dangerous enough on their own to kill most men, and it was the realm of creatures much worse. Before the expeditions were halted the Rushmoors claimed nearly a dozen parties of Knights. Even veteran rangers and scouts from the Keoish Army, men experianced in the Hool Marshes and the Dreadwood were reluctant to travel into the Moors. The Moors were the domain of Flan Tribes who knew the ways of the place, and the Keoish determined that they were to remain that way.

    After the loss of so many men, the Knights abandoned conquest quietly, and instead began building a new city from which to expand northward, one that could watch over the slumbering swamp. When they first arrived in the land north of the Moors, they established a base or camp at the fords that crossed the river, where the Lort and Rushflow became the Sheldomar. But this camp was forced by their enemies: it was not the city that they needed. They determined that a new city was needed, and this new city would stand upon conquered ground.

    They forced the conquered tribes of Flan to begin the construction of a new capital, on the site of another ancient city. The Knights did not know the name of this place, for it had been destroyed before they ever crossed the Rushflow. But the Flan huddled around their fires at night, stealing glances at the darkness. They knew that Vecna had destroyed this city for its defiance, leaving only the rulers alive to carry the tale and mourn their dead.

    Only one Tribe worked on the building of the city willingly, and it is from them that the name is taken. During the time of Vecna they had refused to yield to his evil, and it is said they paid a terrible price, though the exact cost was never revealed. They were led by a shaman of untold age, one far older than any other living man, she was called Shiùladh, "the midwife." When asked she told the Commander that this place was the Shiuil Bol benth, or the Birthplace. The Knights took this as a good omen, believing it foretold a great realm. Unfamiliar with the Flan tounge, and of no mind to learn it, the Knights called the place Shiboleth.

    This tribe did not welcome the Knights, but they accepted their protection and training, and in return taught them the ways of the land. What was good to eat, and what was poisonous. What could bring healing, and keep the diseases away. It is said that this tribe worked on the city until its walls were complete, then with the blessing of the Knights, adopted the ways of the south and settled in the new city.

    Later scholars, much more fluent in the language of the Flan, question the original translation. They agree that Shiuladh means midwife, but Shiuil Bol benth is not just "Birthplace," but "Birthplace of Hatred." It is also said that the Midwife also called the place "Dámh Tuanaig," or the Tomb of the Tribe.

    It was from the knowledge of this tribe that the economy of the city of Shiboleth is derived. As the Knights pushed ever north they lost interest in Shiboleth, its strategic importance being limited. In time, the Knights built Hookhill as their capital, and the Warriors left the streets to merchants, much as they had abandoned Lortenford before.

    The March was already producing cotton, and a cottage industry of weavers was taking hold. From the first days merchants of Shiboleth had traded with the tribesmen of the Rushmoors, and from them procured several plants which yielded rare and wonderous dyes. Then during the reign of Cedrian I, a young man arrived in Shiboleth with a wagon full of trees, and box filled with small catapillars. Al'Miran To' Abin was the name he gave, and he convinced several wealthy merchants that these trees were the secrets to silk, a cloth rarely seen even in the court of Niole Dra.

    Several orchards were planted and for several year Al'Miran and his investors waited. And waited. Nearly ten years they waited. Then, in the fifteenth year of Cedrian's reign, the trees were ready. After so much time it seemed impossible that they could enjoy such great success. The diligent little worms produced cloth of the finest quality, and soon even the King in Niole Dra was wearing Shiboleth silk.

    Alas, the trees were not as hardy as the worms, and in the last year of Cedrian's reign, an unusually harsh winter struck. The catapillars survived well, but the next spring the trees did not sprout leaves and even the ablest druid was unable to revive them. Al'Miram died penniless, and his descendants changed their name and lived in obscurity.

    Nearly one hundred years later Al'Miram's great grandson, one Naldin Merwith, was a moderately succesful dye trader. He was working with a guide in the Rushmoors, collecting Madder Rush for his next batch of dye, when he noticed a small worm weaving a cocoon on the tuft at the top of the stalk. His excitement could not be contained and he immediately returned to his shop. There he took down the journal of his ancient grandfather had kept of making silk, and went in search of someone who could read Bakluni.

    The City of Shiboleth has prospered since its founding as an agricultural and herbal center. Within 150 years of its founding its cottage cloth makers had become a force in the local economy and moved to become the predominant industry, which they still are today. However, Al'Miram's discovery was the tilting point from prosperity to riches. The silk Merwith's worms produced, today known as Shiboleth Red, is a vibrant red, the color of blood in sunlight.
    The cloth has become popular in the western courts, particularly in those areas that still hold harems. The silk is most often used as a veil, it's vibrant red considered a color of passion, and the fabric considered softer than any other known in the Flaness (though this is contested from a number of quarters).

    Oddly, the Baklunish fascination with the silk and it's use as a veil has led to the city's moniker "City of the Veil." In some crude, and often intentional mistranslations it is called "The Veiled City." This is due to the similarity in sound to the Baklunish word for Veil. However, scholars know that this is one of the pranks of history, and that the name actually has nothing to do with the Baklunish West.

    It is of note though, that this became a subject of some discussion after the recent invasion of Bissell by Ket. A rather charismatic and ignorant burgher of the city, known as Merchlonwan, began to decry both the use of a Baklunish name for their beloved city, and the silk trade itself. He claimed that both were unpatriotic. Anyone who opposed him, even distinguished veterans and emminent scholars were shouted down as "sympathizers." It should be noted that he was a cotton factor of some influence. Unfortuantely he slipped and hanged himself with a silk rope after a particularly vehement rally. The authorities ruled it an accident.

    Though silk is the most profitable of items produced by Barony Shiboleth, it is not the one which brings in the most profit. The dyes of Shiboleth are sought after as far after as the Great Kingdom, and this keeps the trade brisk. Though the dye merchants do not earn as much as they would on silk, they have one hundred times the dye to sell. Therefore, this is the true staple of the local economy.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Nov 26, 2005 7:18 pm  

    There could be a citadel, but make it a small one. More of a way point/rest point for the knights to gather supplies and what not. Not a huge castle at all. More of a large keep or large fortified manor house. With stables of course. Large enough to house two dozen knights, their retainers/men-at-arms(3 per knight or so), and the household staff. Could be a chapterhouse of the order, but also double(as suggested) as a jail. Escaping jail only to find oneself in a chapterhouse of hardy and skilled knights would not be a good thing. Shocked

    The knights rotate out of this base on patrols, so there are never the same knights here every two weeks or so. Due to the large number of knights, there are always some to be found here "off duty". The knights serve as an emergency force to bolster the local militia/law enforcement in the event of something truly catastrophic(evil cults, incursions from the Rushmoors, guild wars, etc.).
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    Sat Nov 26, 2005 8:39 pm  
    Knights

    Ceb,

    I am thinking you are right about the size... small and very defensible. That is how it would be in the early stages of conquest.

    However, in my concept, the Knights (who never numbered more than 6500 in Gran March, Keoland, Bissell, and Geoff, and less than 2,500 now) have given over the keep to others as their focus shifted to the Baklunish. I dont see them even being a participant in Shiboleth, as the Citadel would be under too much scrutiny. They are a semi secret order, and that much attention on such undesireable real estate would just be a drain on the coffers.

    So, I think they gave the small central keep over years ago. But they may still be the only ones who know all it's secrets.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sun Nov 27, 2005 3:04 am  

    The knights of the Watch a semi-secret order? That sounds kind of odd, because as knightly orders go, they are THE largest of the orders(6,500 pre-wars), even when "only" having around 2,500 members as they currently do. Only the Knight Protectors may have had more than 6,500 and would have only been at the height of their power.

    The inner mysteries of the order might be secret, but the order itself is not. The Knights of Dispatch are probably less well known, and they tend to like keeping it that way I'd imagine.

    I would think that the knights would maintain a base of some sort in Shiboleth. It might be lower profile than the city's main keep(which might have been given over to the local rulership as you mentioned), but there should be one.

    For example, perhaps the base is a hang-out/meeting place:

    "The White Feather: This large tavern lies opposite the dock side of the city, being reached by a series of twisting streets. Many visitors do not know of the tavern's existence, as other taverns are readily available closer to the docks. The locals know the busy tavern as a hangout favored by hardened mercenaries, yet the tavern doesn't seem to have much trouble in the way of brawling as is common in such establishments. In actuality, the Knights of the Watch owns the tavern, and most of its patrons are knights of the order, or are servants/allies of the order. Strangers are generally discouraged from staying over long, and rooms are unavailable to all but those in service to the order."

    "The White Feather" is a nod to the white owl of the Knights of the Watch of course.

    You could go that route. Not quite secretive, but very low key.
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    Sun Nov 27, 2005 4:25 am  
    Ceb

    Hey Ceb,

    Actually you hit the nail on head in all counts in that last post. I didnt mean that they were a hidden order, but thier order involves a lot of secrets, secret rights, secret missions, extra governmental missions, etc.

    With that in mind I dont think that they would want a central citadel in every city, but have a chapter house that is off the main road so to speak. I like the White Owl very much, and if you do not object, we may use it in the writeup of the city or of the Knights.

    They have a stronger precense in Hookhill, and a stated Chapterhouse, but their current headquarters is in Watchfort, unless someone has a better idea.

    I am not handling the knights, so I will have to check with others.
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    Mon Nov 28, 2005 1:29 am  

    Been skimming the mails, so apologies if I'm reiterating what someone else has said - but I would think there'd at least be a tower keep or some sort of holdfast in the town, especially if there's threats from critters in the nearby moors. The chapter house of the knights might also incorporate a refuge in time of trouble or it could be totally separate to the holdfast of the town's ruler.

    Who's the ruler of the town, btw? Is it a knight, another noble, a cleric of some sort or a town/guild council.

    P.
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    Mon Nov 28, 2005 8:14 am  

    I don’t think this would affect architecture or layout, but I will toss it in just in case or to help with the “feel.” Given the "veiled city" motif and proximity to the swamp there might be proliferation of mosquito netting. Perhaps the streets developed to accommodate sedans.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:01 am  

    If a place such as The White Feather were introduced, I would suggest that it not be a whattle & daub/timber type of building, but a stone building that is sturdily built, reinforced, and easily fortified in the event of being on the defensive. To play up the background of the place, perhaps it was an old barracks building at one time, or it could even have been an ancient Flan structure rebuilt to serve as a barracks long ago.

    Woesinger brings up a very good question: just what form of government is there in Shiboleth, and who is in charge?

    Wolfsire brings up the question of the mosquito factor. Disease could be rampant in such a place as Shiboleth, leading to either a propogation of disease restistant city natives, a greater than normal number of herbalists/healers to provide homebrewed disease remedies, or a greater reliance upon the various temples of the city to provide such healing. Is Shiboleth more of a cold, misty, dreary marsh area or a warm, damp, foetid marsh area most of the time? Wamer conditions will lead to more disease; colder conditions not so much.
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    Tue Nov 29, 2005 8:05 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    Is Shiboleth more of a cold, misty, dreary marsh area or a warm, damp, foetid marsh area most of the time? Wamer conditions will lead to more disease; colder conditions not so much.


    Well the Rushmoors lie about 33 degrees North, which, with the 30 degree axial tilt of the Oerth, is just outside the tropics. Then again, magic nudges a lot of the Flanaess' weather patterns. Still, I'm guessing warmer rather than cooler. So yes to mosquitos.

    For reference 33 N on Earth hits roughly Louisiana, Georgia in the US or north of Shanghai in China (both landmasses with significant oceans to the south east). there's climate information online for places on that latitude.

    Given it's inland, it'd probabaly be hot and sweltery in summer and fairly cold in winter.

    P.
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    Tue Nov 29, 2005 12:00 pm  

    This is the only other info on Shiboleth that I've pieced together:

    The Arrowstorm Militia is headquartered in Shibboleth and most members live in the vicinity.

    1 Battle garrisoning Shiboleth (3rd)

    The Blinding Spire: The temple of Pholtus in Shiboleth is the seat of the Shining Master, leader of the faith. Constructed of white marble it is adorned with silver and white fixtures and cloths. The temple is very clean, elegant, and is quite striking to behold. Services include prayer, the singing of hymns, and sermons. Services, no matter the time of day, are conducted by the light of pure white tapers.
    Shining Master Maxwell Orden (Clc11, LN) runs the church of Pholtus in authoritarian fashion. All policy comes from the Shining Master. Heldreth Dorden (Clc8, Div Or1) is the Temple Leader in Shiboleth.

    The Merchant’s House: This impressive temple to Zilchus is ornately carved and decorated, displaying magnificence and wealth while stopping short of being ostentatious. The temple has a park-like yard surrounding it, and a garden located to the rear.

    Syrloch: Formally known as the Commandant’s College of Applied Martial Arcane Arts, this organisation is tasked with training and monitoring wizards and sorcerers in Gran March, including the provision of specialized training and other benefits to its members. All wizards and sorcerers operating inside the borders of Gran March are expected to register their presence with Syrloch, though they need not make any other commitment to the organisation. The house in Shiboleth offers only lodgings, spells for sale, and limited library facilities, with no instructional or research facilities. The Shiboleth house is expected to be completely finished by Harvester, 594 CY.

    The Travellers’ Respite: This temple is the only permanently staffed place of worship for Fharlanghn in Gran March. It was built and is maintained by Jotham Wieder (Clc9, N), who no longer travels after being maimed.

    Pathfinder Headquarters: Shiboleth is the main headquarters for the Pathfinders. This is to prevent the appearance that all of the Pathfinders are under the direct control of the Commandant.
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    Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:05 pm  
    The Gran March

    Hey,

    Paul, thanks for the help, just be aware that the LG Gran March Triad and WOtC have forbidden us from using anything of theirs, so everything is whole cloth and new.

    We have rewritten everything they have contirbuted.

    Miller
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    Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:59 am  

    Doh! That's not very helpful of them. I've been double referencing as I go, copying info from the religion or military sections or Yahoo emails to my Shiboleth entry in my personal gazeteer so yeah, that info must be copied str8 from the Gran March Yahoo site. Apologies to all.

    Still Manzorian is an Archmage by any other name Wink It all looks great so far. Good luck!
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