I am going to use round numbers and generalizations here for ease of discussion, even it that is a bit odd.
Q1 - Suppose a PC from the Flanaess obtains 1 ton (2000lbs) of weapons (standard quality) and transports them to the land of the Touv in southern Hepmonaland. Suppose further that the PC paid 10,000gp for the weapons and that this is a reasonable price in the Flanaess. How much will the Touv pay for these weapons?
a) Nothing or less than 10,000gp. They have their own weapons.
b) 10,000gp or the equivalent. A fair price in the Flanaess is a fair price in Hepmonaland.
c) If more than 10,000gp, how much more?
Q2 - Suppose a PC from the Flanaess travels to the Amedio Jungle (Xamaclan) and obtains 1 ton (2000lbs) of colored dyes and transports them back to the Flanaess proper. Suppose further that the PC paid 10,000gp for the colored dyes and that this is a reasonable price in the Amedio Jungle (Xamaclan). How much can the PC sell the colored dyes for in the Flanaess proper?
a) Nothing or less than 10,000gp. The Flanaess has its own color dyes.
b) 10,000gp. A fair price in the Amedio is a fair price in the Flanaess.
c) If more than 10,000gp, how much more?
Q1. Most likely A. Touv metallurgy is on par with the Flanaess so they wouldn't be any better. The weapons would be unfamiliar and most likely unwieldy to Touv warriors, plus they're not decorated with Touv religious symbols so they might be also considered unlucky.
Q2. This really depends on if there is a Flanaess equivalent to those dyes. If yes then A. Basically the same reason as above. Not because the dyes are really any different but because they would be PERCEIVED as different, so dyers in the Flanaess wouldn't be sure how to use them and consequently middle men would be unwilling to buy something they're not sure they can unload for a profit. If they dyes are not equivalent then they are possibly exotic and valuable, depending on the whims of fashion, so it would most likely be C. Just to throw a number out I'd say anywhere from 10-30% above the value of dyes in the Flanaess.
1: Depends on the weapons as Smillan says. If they're weapons that are of use and value to the Touv and there's only one source of them then there's a market for them. How much the Touv are willing to pay depends on how bad they want them. If you sell it to one of the kingdoms that wants to attack one of the others, then you might get a good deal (though it's likely to be defrayed until after the conquest and paid for in slaves and plunder).
2: I'd have bought spices instead and shoved the dyes! :)
Same principle applies - supply and demand. If there's demand for them (ie Flanaessi fullers have been exposed to small amounts of them before, know how to work with them and can sell the products at a handsome profit), then they'll sell. On the other hand, if you turn up with a completely new dye, demand is likely to be limited. However, if you turn up with cloth dyed in said colour OR bring an Olman dyer with you to dye some cloth - then with a bit of good salesmanship, you could create demand.
C in both cases, a profit. The important thing is that you started the questions, “Suppose a PC ….”
There are a lot of factors missing. You and the player are capable of filling in those factors in all kinds of ways to have it turn out any way you want. Perhaps there is a 100% markup (which according to a friend of mine who inports from SE Asia is about right to cover overhead), or maybe the weapons or dies are stolen and the commercial expedition is forgotten in the midst of high adventure.
Rationalize the result you want taking into account what is reasonable under the circumstances and rewarding good role playing. So far it sound like the player has made a quality choice- international trade in the far south- and done so conscientiously by only paying a “reasonable price in the Flanaess.” That should be rewarded.
Perhaps the player could have done more research, but it is a player not a DM. If you think that prices would not be too good, then have the player role play a little harder looking for that special buyer … offered a low price in the port, the player hears a rumor of a weapons collector in the interior of Hepmonaland ....
This is D&D, a game about going out and killing stuff. While several variants have been created for economic activity on one scale or other, all are significant variants from the standard system, and must be treated as such.
With that in mind, within the rules, we may calculate the following:
1. Use the PHB and roll Profession (merchant) for each week of the trip, with a circumstance modifier for when the sales are actually made. The result is the profit.
2. Use the DMG II PC Business system. Allow the PCs to finance an exploratory trade company (you might have to create this category yourself), and roll for profits for a month.
3. Use the PHB II Organization system, and create a merchant company. Select an appropriate action, and if the PCs succeed on the relevant task check, allow them to add to the organizations resources.
4. Adapt the Birthright rules (which the PHB II Organization system appears to be an adaptation of already), and treat the whole thing as exploratory trade.
5. Pull something out of thin air.
6. Have them kill a dragon during the trade mission so they don't care about how much selling some merchant goods makes.
As an alternative to Sam's # 6, shipwrecked off the coast of Hepmonaland or the Amedio makes the question of profits academic.
Some might call that aarbitrarily punishing the players. I'd call it crapping out on a risky venture. Sometimes it happens. And who knows what kind of adventures it could lead to.
Let me ask this. Are we saying that trade/commercialism spurring exploration from the Flanaess is not a factor on Oerth because there is not that great a disparity between the Flanaess and anywhere else?
A few examples -
On earth, spices purchased for cheap in SE Asia sold for bundles back in Europe and spurred exploration.
On earth, dyestuffs purchased for cheap in Central America (and I do mean purchased as the Conquistidors proved unwilling/incapable (and I do mean unwilling/incapable) of mastering the production process) sold for bundles back in Europe, becoming more valuable in the long run than plundered Central American gold and silver and spurred exploration.
Are we saying the like is unlikely on Oerth as between the Flanaess and Hepmonaland or the Amedio? Everyone is sufficiently equal technologically that advanced weapons are not that advanced to native populations outside the Flanaess etc.? Everyone produces sufficient native products that spices, dyes etc. are not so exclusive to any one area as to spur exploration?
Population pressure to explore outside the Flanaess is virtually absent as Flanaess populations are unrealistically low. Curiousity will not get you very far in the long run as kings and merchants do not regularly stay in business by funding exploration just for the heck of it.
In such case, what spurs exploration other than the hope of finding El Dorado and piles of gold and gems just laying around for the taking? Or is that it?
On earth, nothing of the sort drive Portugal or Spain to explore the Americas or Asia. Sure, there were the myths and the dreamers but it was the merchants and the kings eager for resources that drove exploration - spices, dyes etc. Gold and silver were not the drivers but rather hoped for and largely after the fact discoveries. Commerce drive exploration. Not so on Oerth?
Or if commerce is a driver of exploration on Oerth then what commerce? Spices? Dies? From where? Not the Amedio? Not Hepmonaland? What commodities are rare enough (leaving aside gold, silver and gems) in the Flanaess to spur exploration beyond the Flanaess to find more? Or is it just gold, silver and gems? Or nothing? _________________ GVD
These are all unknowns so far, and perhaps should stay that way for a while. Exploration beyond the Flanaess is fun, but we still do not know what we will find, and that is a DM’s prerogative. Why set up the Age of Exploration only to have it conflict with what is going on with the rest of the world. The outside world colonization of the Flanaess has been mentioned and sounds good too. That would require very different dynamics. Something in between … get them before they get us, as naval technology develops (see Ivid the Undying) trade and wars cross the oceans.
But to toss in two bits on this questions: “What commodities are rare enough (leaving aside gold, silver and gems) in the Flanaess to spur exploration beyond the Flanaess to find more? Or is it just gold, silver and gems? Or nothing?”--- Magic or magic like substances.
Djaffa (Common, from the Ancient Suel word Javus, 'sharp'), a/k/a Gahveh (Baklunish), or Mokka (Olman)...
You and I know it as coffee, but the Scarlet Brotherhood discovered it, perfected the production and processing of the beans, and used its introduction to finance their recent activities. (Hey, assassinations don't fund themselves...)
Over the last decade or two, the drink has exploded across the continent, and the profits off it are huge. Why do you think the SB is trying to control the waterways...? Additionally, it provides the SB with some leverage to convince their neighbors to accept their new role. (YMMV)
FWIW, coffee is the second most traded commodity in the world today (by dollar amount). It's cheap to produce when you have slave labor, the product is mildly addictive, and the explosion of cafes across Europe after the Battle of Vienna in 1683 is a good indicator of its popularity. I imagine the Overking hates it, but hell, that's probably a good selling point...
Let me ask this. Are we saying that trade/commercialism spurring exploration from the Flanaess is not a factor on Oerth because there is not that great a disparity between the Flanaess and anywhere else?
Ummm . . .
No.
I thought I was rather clear.
I said that this sort of trade/commercialism is not a standard element of the game system. Therefore, there is no system in place that can easily resolve your question.
And so it seems your question was actually rhetorical, as is this one, and what you really want is a large scale economic/commercial system for D&D, with a Greyhawk specific module included.
I'd rather design adventures with killing aboleth.
I like the idea of coffee trade presented by Telas (also suggestive of sugar cane), but I've never imagined this good being produced by Shar or its Scarlet Brotherhood.
Responding to one of GVD's questions, a robustly organized state can spur exploration. For example, on a public radio show I heard about forgotten Chinese trade fleets that once sailed far past the empire--exploring for the sake of commerce but sponsored by the state because it was able to do so. Cf. the various trade companies chartered / sponsored by France, England, and the Dutch.
In the Flanaess, I think that adventurers may also sponsor exploration, e.g., the Matreyus expedition into Hepmonaland.
Also, Woesinger has suggested that the Great Kingdom of Aerdy once sponsored expeditions to the northeast coasts of Hepmonaland, which became abandoned and forgotten due to the Age of Sorrow.
Finally, responding to the initial questions:
The Touv reportedly forge iron weapons, so if the Flanaess weaponry is superior, i.e., steel, then after suitable demonstration, they should sell for a higher value than what they cost. If such weapons were made available to the Olman, who reportedly only produce bronze weapons (if that), then the weapons should sell for a lot more than they cost.
The dyes seem more complex because of what others discussed, i.e., the need for this commodity to be used by one trained or able to learn its proper use. (This point should also apply to weapons deemed exotic by the Touv, e.g., pikes and pole arms if Olman-Touv warfare features no cavalry charges.)
However, for fancy's sake, I'd rule that the Olman dyes would become fashionable and therefore sell for greater than they cost.
GVD, care to share any thoughts on the title of this forum "The Price of Things to Come"?
When I first read it, it did not even occur to me that it was literally related to the quiz. I only thought of it in relation to upcoming developments, in particular things that might come out of Savage Tide, the "price" being the loss of creative license for those who wish to conform to canon.
Coffee is an African species. It wouldn't be found in the Amedio unless transplanted.
Even if it were transplanted there, it would require significant plantantions to be an export crop, which the local social organization doesn't appear able to support.
As has been noted elsewhere, the Amedio has a southeast Asian ecosystem, and should have exports appropriate to such.
While the general tech of weapons is stable within the Flanaess that doesn't mean equal, that could no doubt be areas that specialize in certain weapon types. The touv may also lack the necessary craftsman or material to produce the weapons required so it becomes profitable.
It all comes down to supply and demand; resource + expertise + time vs the demand for weapons vs availability of payment.
This also applies within the Flanaess arms trade where desire is acute and skilled smiths can't keep up with demand. ie. fronter settlements or the illegal "humanoid arms trade"; especially in post FtA, weapon smiths are kept extermely busy.
The dyes are viewed in ItU as "luxury items" for the nobility and have enough of a market to encourage baklunish, sea princes, lordship, scarlet brotherhood and sea barons all to practise this trade to some extent, sometimes quite violently, so the profit margins must be fairly high.
Coffee is an African species. It wouldn't be found in the Amedio unless transplanted.
...
As has been noted elsewhere, the Amedio has a southeast Asian ecosystem, and should have exports appropriate to such.
Coffee is a prime export for the environs of Cauldron according to the SCAP hardcover.
As far as where it is naturally occuring in the Flanaess...? My guess is that it probably came eastward with the Baklunish. If I had to finger a spot for the best arabica beans it would probably be imported from the Komali lands.
Although it is fun to surmise these things as a DM I certainly would discourage my players from starting their own Greybucks franchise if at all possible. (If they insisted I would probably use the DMG II rules for player owned business.)
Mortellan if you are reading this thread I would love to see a strip relating to Greybucks cropping up across the Flaeness like weeds. I can only imagine what the Illuminati type mermaid symbol would look like in Greyhawk terms. ;)
No, I said coffee is a native species of Africa.
And that for it to be in the Amedio, it would have to be transplanted there by people with both an interest in producing more coffee, a reliable source of labor to support the new platantations, and the means to do this.
Obviously there were people with all these in the real world, so coffee is now grown in southeast Asia, as well as South America. Who in the Flanaess has the knowledge of, ability to, and destination for, such a transplanting in the Flanaess? Nobody.
And no, Java the island was not named for coffee. Instead, Java the type of coffee was named for the island it was exported from.
Perhaps you should double check those wikipedia entries.
As for the SCAP hardcover making coffee an export of Cauldron, it obviously failed to consider other canon exports of the Amedio, as well as having coffee be there in the first place.
If the plant thrives in a southeast Asian ecosystem, then why can't it be found in a southeast Asian ecosystem? Because history happened differently on Earth?
I knew which Java I was referring to. I'll speak more clearly next time, so you can, too.
If the plant thrives in a southeast Asian ecosystem, then why can't it be found in a southeast Asian ecosystem? Because history happened differently on Earth?
As opposed to needing another reason?
Why not just say coffee grows well in the Thillonrian Mountains, and the Snow Barbarians have a monopoly on exporting it at that rate?
Why bother setting down what plants are found there in the first place?
Coffee wouldn't be native to the Amedio, and it shouldn't be transplanted there any time soon.
I enjoyed the SCAP for the most part but found its placement of "core D&D" gods / religions amidst the Flanaess / Amedio not justifiable for Greyhawk campaigning.
Similarly, the coffee idea seems a bit off. While substantial plantations have been established (and make sense) in the former Hold of the Sea Princes, the idea does not make sense in the relatively unsettled Amedio Jungle.
Perhaps small proto-plantations exist around the various forts / villages noted in the map accompanying tSB, and perhaps these will grow (after enough slash and burn) into plantations comparable to Earth's colonial history by CY 600, but the visions articulated by WoG, FtB, or even the LGG don't support plantations in the "Cauldron" environs.
I'm fairly interested in the upcoming AP to see if Erik "smooths over" the previous heresies of the SCAP.
You mean there's no coffee in Indonesia? Isn't that where Java got its name?
YES! And before the Americas were discovered and the crops brought back to europe, no tomatoes in Italy!
The issue here, IMO, is that in the past, research has been done on this very forum (as part of the now infamous "corn" flamewar) to determine what real world ecosystem is the closest match to the Amedio. The answer was southeast asia. In that regard, I think it's best to consider any plants that did not exist pre-human agriculture in southeast asia, or do not appear in GH canon as existing in the area (like corn, and some of the GH specific trees) as questionable.
I'll dig up a link to the thread I'm referring to and post it here for review.
And by the way, aside from my general agreement with Samwise about trusting wikipedia too much, I must point out that the page you linked to concerning Java (the island) doesn't even contain the word coffee, much less claim that is where the name came from.
The Olman moved from Hepmonaland to the Amedio. Why would not they have brought coffee with them if it originated there. Their large empire could have supported it growth and could have introduced it to the Suel and Baklune Empires. As the latter in part survived the Twins, it could be popularly known now as the source of this rare liquid after the fall of the Olman. In Xamaclan they probably eat the bean covered in chocolate, but because of the rough seas, don’t export the stuff north. The Dakon probably harvest wild beans growing in the hills for personal consumption.
I heard Murlynd, has taken an interest in the Olman because of their “alien” culture roots, and become quite addicted to coffee. He previously was quite fond of it earlier and elsewhere in life. He enjoys it so much, they say he is even made of the stuff. Someone even wrote a song about it: “Hey Jo, where you goin’ with that gun in your hand?”
Here's the amedio plantlife post I was referring to:
Despotrix wrote:
In regard to the staple vegetables and grains used by the Olman, let's look first at the canon plantlife of the "southern tropical" regions of the setting.
From page 6 of the "Guide to the World of Greyhawk"
Banyan The Banyan tree is not viable as a food source, but elements of it can be harvested for medicinal purposes. However, consider the real world origins of the Banyan tree, Southeast Asia, another plant is common there that is very viable as a food source. Back to that in a moment, but keep in mind that if one plant native to the region is also common in the tropical regions of the Greyhawk setting, it is not that far fetched to claim that another is as well.
Baobab The Baobab tree, native to real world Africa, is bare for 9 months of the year, but during its brief producing season, it yields a fairly large, meaty fruit sometimes called "Monkey Bread". Not a viable major staple, but definitely worth considering as a contributor to the Olman, and other Jungle native creatures, diets.
Deklo The Deklo tree is unique to Oerth, and based on its description, has no value as a food source.
Mahogany Again, no value as a food source.
Palm The mundane Palm tree has little value as a food source, but two variants which could easily fit into the Jungle climate are the Date and Coconut, both of which yield highly nutritious fruit. I'd lump these in with the Baobab as secondary food sources.
Teak The leaves and flowers of the Teak tree can be harvested for medicinal value, but Teak has little food value.
Now that we've detailed the canon plantlife (I erred on the side of safety and did not include the "southern" region plants, like Kara, which could exist in the Jungles, but are not specifically said to) we'll look at 3 other worthy plants.
Maize/Corn Obviously a part of the Olman diet from its depiction in C1, the problem is that corn is difficult to grow on a large scale in the jungle. Relegate this to a secondary role in modern Olman society.
Wheat is also mentioned in C1, but it is even less likely to be a major source of food in the modern Olman landscape.
Now, finally, remember the Banyan plant from southeast Asia? Well, take a wild guess what other crop thrives in that environment. That's right! Rice! I firmly believe, using this logical extension of canon, that rice can solidly fulfill the role of the primary staple grain in Olman communities.
If you peruse the thread I link to above, as well as searching this forum for other threads containing the words "corn" and "amedio", you'll find that that fact is, and has been for some time, one of the major points of contention where Olman/Amedio lore is concerned.
The current workers of published GH material have accepted the premise as presented in Scarlet Brotherhood, but that acceptance is not universal, and IMHO, there are far better ideas floating around.
The Olman moved from Hepmonaland to the Amedio. Why would not they have brought coffee with them if it originated there. Their large empire could have supported it growth and could have introduced it to the Suel and Baklune Empires. As the latter in part survived the Twins, it could be popularly known now as the source of this rare liquid after the fall of the Olman. In Xamaclan they probably eat the bean covered in chocolate, but because of the rough seas, don’t export the stuff north. The Dakon probably harvest wild beans growing in the hills for personal consumption.
If they have chocolate, why would they want coffee?
Both serve the same purpose in a diet, they are stimulants loaded with caffeine, and have some associated carbohydrates. Indeed, just comparing the two, chocolate is much superior, and would be more likely to be adopted by any rational people.
Also, who said coffee comes from Hepmonaland?
Or that chocolate would be available in either the Amedio or Hepmonaland?
If they have chocolate, why would they want coffee?
Both serve the same purpose in a diet, they are stimulants loaded with caffeine, and have some associated carbohydrates. Indeed, just comparing the two, chocolate is much superior, and would be more likely to be adopted by any rational people.
Cacao, the plant that yeilds what becomes chocolate, is extremely difficult for a pre-industrial people to process. The only real thing the Aztecs used it for was preparing a (pretty damn foul tasting) ceremonial drink vaguely related to hot cocoa.
While chocolate in its processed form is a higher quality food that coffee, in pre-industrial societies, coffee is a lot easier to prepare.
Creamy, candy chocolate, that one might dip coffee beans in, as was mentioned, is a fairly modern, industrial food product, and would be, IMO, extremely anachronistic in GH.
Cacao, the plant that yeilds what becomes chocolate, is extremely difficult for a pre-industrial people to process. The only real thing the Aztecs used it for was preparing a (pretty damn foul tasting) ceremonial drink vaguely related to hot cocoa.
While chocolate in its processed form is a higher quality food that coffee, in pre-industrial societies, coffee is a lot easier to prepare.
Creamy, candy chocolate, that one might dip coffee beans in, as was mentioned, is a fairly modern, industrial food product, and would be, IMO, extremely anachronistic in GH.
But they have magic!
And everyone has advanced food processing techniques, such that they can get modern yields from corn (not to mention wheat, grown on 144 acre farms, in areas with 100% arable land of the highest quality, except for where houses and roads are built, so-called "yellowdingo ground"), and make delicious, yummy, satisfying chocolate, instead of nasty, bitter, evil coffee.
If you peruse the thread I link to above, as well as searching this forum for other threads containing the words "corn" and "amedio", you'll find that that fact is, and has been for some time, one of the major points of contention where Olman/Amedio lore is concerned.
The current workers of published GH material have accepted the premise as presented in Scarlet Brotherhood, but that acceptance is not universal, and IMHO, there are far better ideas floating around.
I am aware of the controversy. I read all the "original homeland" articles, and had my own take the with the Proto-Olman coming up the Amedio Coast, settling in Hepmonaland and returning. I prefer to stick with canon and come up with a reconcilation. That did it to my satisfaction. I did not get any criticism on The Spiritual Legacy of Lake Spendlowe and the Proto-Olman, http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=777, but I would love to hear it.
Okay. Before we wind up with "Children of the Corn - The Coming of Coffee," let me annunciate "Dammerung's Rule of Plant Propagation" -
If a plant (or crop) can grow in an environment on OERTH, it can be appropriately found in that environment on OERTH, if such would serve the interests of the game, even if that plant (or crop) might not be native to or originate in that environment on EARTH, if that plant (or crop) can grow in that environment on EARTH.
Any other rule is Buzzkill Greyhawk, IMO.
So coffee in Middle Eastern, African, Asian or South American analogs are all fine. Where coffee originated is not relevant as it somewhow got where it is found and can grow there. How it got there is another question, legitimate but another question.
So with corn. So with cacao. So with tomatoes. So with tobacco. So with tea. And so on. If it can grow there, it can grow there.
If this creates anachronisms, they join the long list of other Greyhawk anachronisms that have not managed to derail the setting. If crashed spaceship and cowboys in Greyhawk will not derail the setting, corn and coffee in the Amedio region will not derail Greyhawk.
Wolfsire wrote:
GVD, care to share any thoughts on the title of this forum "The Price of Things to Come"?
When I first read it, it did not even occur to me that it was literally related to the quiz. I only thought of it in relation to upcoming developments, in particular things that might come out of Savage Tide, the "price" being the loss of creative license for those who wish to conform to canon.
Wolfsire, you are pretty much on the money. Savage Tide got me to thinking about the piracy theme in the extents of the Pearl Sea, which got me to thinking about the commerce that would be pirated, which got me to thinking about what things would or might be traded from that area to the Flanaess if a DM were to use Savage Tide to introduce Flanaess PCs, and hence the Flanaess, to the wonders of the Pearl Sea.
The questions I've posed go to the heart of both how we see commerce in this region of Oerth but also, based on some people's reactions, how we see the Flanaess itself.
If the Flanaess is largely self-sufficient in pretty much everything, there is little reason for trade and for trade motivating exploration. We are left with greed for conquest and gold solely motivating exploration.
If other areas of Oerth are on a par with the Flanaess, whether or not the Flanaess is pretty much self-sufficient, again, there is not a lot of reason for trade to motivate contact.
My initial thought was that there would be inequalities in resources and technology, some in favor of the Flanaess, some in favor of other regions, some a wash. I get a strong sense that a number of people see a more homogeneous Oerth, one where "kill the (fill in the blank) and grab the gold" is the only motive that might drive anyone to step outside the Flanaess, where all they would find is a Flanaess analog in terms of technology and resources. I think that would be sad.
It would certainly bear little resemblance to Earth where trade was a huge motivator for exploration and where there existed vast inequalities in resources and technology (in whose favor depending on the era of history that might be considered). _________________ GVD
If a plant (or crop) can grow in an environment on OERTH, it can be appropriately found in that environment on OERTH, if such would serve the interests of the game,
That right there is pretty much, in a nutshell, the gripe I have with some of the recent gh material that I find questionable. Forgive me if it sounds like I'm playing semantics.
Serve the interests of the game.
The whole reason we're having this debate is that the editors of the SC compilation decided that in order to properly shoehorn a previously generic adventure locale into GH, coffee trade was needed. It wasn't intended to flesh out the Amedio/Hellfurnace coast of Jeklea. It wasn't intended to flesh out the Olman, or Amedi, or Sea Princes, or Keoland, or the Scarlet Brotherhood. Just to fit SC into the setting. I guess the existing trade in that region of the Flanaess, slaves, is too politically incorrect to include these days.
Canon should, IMO, serve the interests of the setting.
Sure, in Gygax's day, the setting was a blank slate, and modules often did drop tidbits of lore into the setting, and it wasn't a problem, because they were not (potentially) contradiciting 25 years of canon or 25 years of fan community consensus on aspects of the setting.
If Erik and Co. want to go in and seriously draft some material on why this coffee debacle actually does move the region and its people forward in terms of development, I'm all ears, but I can't sit idly by and watch neglected aspects of the setting, like the Olman/Amedio, continue to be willingly and purposefully neglected simply to serve whatever adventure Dungeon is trying to sell us.
Okay. Before we wind up with "Children of the Corn - The Coming of Coffee," let me annunciate "Dammerung's Rule of Plant Propagation" -
If a plant (or crop) can grow in an environment on OERTH, it can be appropriately found in that environment on OERTH, if such would serve the interests of the game, even if that plant (or crop) might not be native to or originate in that environment on EARTH, if that plant (or crop) can grow in that environment on EARTH.
Any other rule is Buzzkill Greyhawk, IMO.
Cool.
Let me annunciate "Samwise's Rule of Coherent World Construction."
If you can reasonably replicate a real world ecosystem, do so instead of throwing a hodge-podge around that would completely invalidate any future ability to limit resources, and thus potential game situations. While it might be more difficult, it will yield better results in the long run.
If a plant (or crop) can grow in an environment on OERTH, it can be appropriately found in that environment on OERTH, if such would serve the interests of the game,
That right there is pretty much, in a nutshell, the gripe I have with some of the recent gh material that I find questionable. Forgive me if it sounds like I'm playing semantics.
Serve the interests of the game. . . . Canon should, IMO, serve the interests of the setting.
No argument as I can see substituting "interests of the setting" for "interests of the game" with no difficulty. I was just broadly stating the case. You are, of course, correct that the case in point is Greyhawk. I think we are in agreement that Greyhawk's interests should be served. So I will restate (emphasis added)-
If a plant (or crop) can grow in an environment on OERTH, it can be appropriately found in that environment on OERTH, if such would serve the interests of the _SETTING_, even if that plant (or crop) might not be native to or originate in that environment on EARTH, if that plant (or crop) can grow in that environment on EARTH.
By this measure, I see no problem with the placement of coffee by Mona and company. Am I missing something? _________________ GVD
Let me annunciate "Samwise's Rule of Coherent World Construction."
If you can reasonably replicate a real world ecosystem, do so instead of throwing a hodge-podge around that would completely invalidate any future ability to limit resources, and thus potential game situations.
Can you provide an example of where such failure to adhere to this rule would "completely invalidate any future ability to limit resources, and thus potential game situations?"
Say, for example, how coffee in the Amedio would "completely invalidate any future ability to limit resources, and thus potential game situations?"
Not meaning to be obtuse but I am just not seeing this danger you are identifying. Little help? _________________ GVD
Nothing that isn't equally true of dropping the entire community of Cauldron into the middle of the Amedio out of the clear blue sky.
I think Cauldron is an order of magnitude, at least, different than coffee. Or am I again missing something? Coffee is the "destructor?" _________________ GVD
By this measure, I see no problem with the placement of coffee by Mona and company. Am I missing something?
I think the point that everyone is missing is simple. Coffee was an unneeded addition to gh lore. There's plenty of canon products, even leaving slaves out of the picture, in the area that would have been just as suitable, without adding more confusion and clutter to the already muddled Amedio.
Baobab "fruit", aka Monkey Bread, it's size and rarity (3 month growing season in the tropical jungles) could make it a prized delicacy in the flanaess.
Banyan and or Teak leaves. bark, etc, noted for their medicinal/alchemical properties.
Etc.
This is a case of what I call frivolous canon. It wasn't needed, and as this thread attests, only causes confusion and debate. Good canon should do just the opposite, advanced the setting in a logical manner, and bring fans together.
I see your point, which I interpret as "we might as well embrace the canon, we're stuck with it, make the best of it" and I don't disagree in general, but as you surely know, the Olman/Amedio is one of my touchy spots when it comes to canon, and I'd far prefer future material on them try and actually weave some of the disparate elements together and make the region and people something worth showcasing in a campaign.
Nothing that isn't equally true of dropping the entire community of Cauldron into the middle of the Amedio out of the clear blue sky.
We don't need to go there again.
GVD and I had lengthy discussions about that very issue when it first happened, the result, for my part, was the "Joramy's Wrath" alternate plotline. It's somewhere in the old posts of this forum if you want to look it up.
Truth be told though, I had ironically placed a ruined olman city exactly where Cauldron appears on the map, so briefly allowing some pesky folk to try and build anew there wasn't a big issue for me, the volcano destroyed it all anyway
And simply put, yes, I think coffee/corn/chocolate are far more important issues as they pertain to Olman development than Cauldron is. It's one city, barely within the Amedio proper anyway. The agriculture and crops of the people affect all the people and the entire jungle.
If you recreate ecosystems, you (and your players) can make reasonable extrapolations of what is there and what is not. If you utilize a potluck method to develop your regional ecosystems, you are left with DM fiat as the only reason for things. This eliminates any player ability to analyze the environment and, ultimately, puts the DM in the situation of this thread: having no idea what is where or how it would all interact save by arbitrary decisions.
I don't think its necessary to be as precise as Samwise is, but I do think its much easier to follow the real world where possible. You won't ever be in the situation of being "unable" to limit things, but ever limitation will be an ad hoc and arbitrary ruling with no framework to maintain consistency.
Hmm, I was thinking of coffee solely in conjuction with its use in Cauldron. As in, it might have come with whomever set up cauldron or whatever. If we are talking about making coffee beans a widespread native crop, then yeah, I agree its a much bigger problem than Sasserine/Cauldron is by itself in terms of its implications for the entire region.
Not meaning to be obtuse but I am just not seeing this danger you are identifying. Little help?
Vorm beat me to it, my reply below is essentially the same point
The way I am reading Sam's point works out to a matter of believability in the setting. Not realism, per se, but suspension of disbelief and a modicum of familiarity.
If by adopting a loose "pre-industrial southeast asia" ecological model for the Amedio, we create a feeling among other DMs and players of "hey, ok, I can dig that", they are more likely to want to craft adventures there. To understand and develop the Olman we must, as individual campaign overlords as well as collaborators in the community, understand the benchmarks we are given to work with. Environment is a very important aspect of any culture, and it's one of the key components of new development we have to understand and relate to. By knowing what manner of plants, and thereby what manner of mundane animals we might find, we can begin to understand how the people live. Constantly changing the ecological environment benchmark causes a state of perpetual chaos.
Last edited by chatdemon on Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Hmm, I was thinking of coffee solely in conjuction with its use in Cauldron. As in, it might have come with whomever set up cauldron or whatever. If we are talking about making coffee beans a widespread native crop, then yeah, I agree its a much bigger problem than Sasserine/Cauldron is by itself in terms of its implications for the entire region.
Since, as Sam pointed out, coffee is a crop native to Africa, and Africa is at least nominally the inspiration for the southern areas of hepmonaland, if we were to agree that coffee is rare, if not unknown in the Amedio, but was brought to the hills and mountains around cauldron by those who settled that city, I'd be fine with it.
Coffee can and does grow in tropical, volcanic areas. Hawaii has a healthy coffee industry.
Since there is no real benchmark, published or otherwise, in existence for the evology of the touv homeland, IMO it is far less potentially harmful to the setting, and future development, to have coffee come from that region.
[Can you provide an example of where such failure to adhere to this rule would "completely invalidate any future ability to limit resources, and thus potential game situations?"
Say, for example, how coffee in the Amedio would "completely invalidate any future ability to limit resources, and thus potential game situations?"
Not meaning to be obtuse but I am just not seeing this danger you are identifying. Little help?
"Each of the foregoing are rare dyes in the Flanaess. All of them can only be found in . . ."
By your rule, there is no reason for them to be rare. If they can exist in an ecosystem, they get placed there, destroying their rarity completely.
Additional factors are as identified by Vormaerin and Chatdemon, with a strong emphasis on the internal consistency of the setting for both ease of reference and suspension of disbelief. While many like sneer at these factors, they are very important, particularly for extended design and presentation.
I don't think its necessary to be as precise as Samwise is, but I do think its much easier to follow the real world where possible.
Going back to "corn war '05", I think the rather precise (or stubborn, depending on your view of the subject) positions of folks like Sam, GVD, myself, Despotrix/Mar, etc actually do serve a positive purpose. In that case, the debate was long and detailed enough that some rather interesting material came out of it. Can't say everyone involved was on the same page in the end, but we hashed out some pretty solid, worthwhile ideas and material, and that's worth the sometimes tedious debating it takes to get there.
Being as I live in Hawai'i, I'm well aware of Kona coffee (though I don't drink coffee myself). :)
And yes, that is what I was thinking: it existed as a plantation crop within the culture of the Cauldronites and has nothing (or, at least, had nothing) to do with the Olman and Amedio Suel. Unless you accept the Hepmonaland origin of the Olman, which I am not fond of either. I personally like the Jahind/pre Mahasarpa theory that was discussed a while back.
Oh, I'm not objecting to people having those precise views or debating them. I was simply differentiating my position from Samwise's. I prefer to base ecologies on real world ones as well, largely for the reasons he gives. But I'm not as fanatical about it as he is, nor do I think its necessary to be to get the bulk of the benefit of the approach. After a point, you get diminishing returns on the effort, IMHO.
Being as I live in Hawai'i, I'm well aware of Kona coffee (though I don't drink coffee myself). :)
And yes, that is what I was thinking: it existed as a plantation crop within the culture of the Cauldronites and has nothing (or, at least, had nothing) to do with the Olman and Amedio Suel. Unless you accept the Hepmonaland origin of the Olman, which I am not fond of either. I personally like the Jahind/pre Mahasarpa theory that was discussed a while back.
Even if you accept the Hepmo Olman theory, their realm is in the northern part of hepmo, which is tropical rainforest similar to the amedio. The quasi-African realm that the touv came from is far to the south. I think that if we must accept coffee in GH, the hepmo origin idea is a fine compromise.
Oh, I'm not objecting to people having those precise views or debating them. I was simply differentiating my position from Samwise's. I prefer to base ecologies on real world ones as well, largely for the reasons he gives. But I'm not as fanatical about it as he is, nor do I think its necessary to be to get the bulk of the benefit of the approach. After a point, you get diminishing returns on the effort, IMHO.
Well yes and no. As Chatdemon noted, without someone as fanatical as myself you won't get the checking and cross-checking, and from that you won't get the deeper discussions and examinations that ensure your material can pass muster.
In the long run, I'm not that fanatical either. But you have to start out as a frothing lunatic to make sure what you wind up with is the best possible material at the end. Just letting stuff go because its easy leads to throwawy references like the coffee in Cauldron when it doesn't fit.
well, chatdemon is talking about forum debate (as, it appears, are you). I was simply making a comment on how I do things in my campaign. Most people have harder positions in debate than they do in practice.
And there is a huge gap between the laziness of tossing coffee into the Amedio and being the "corn king". Big enough to sail a few panamax ships through, at least. That's like saying "if you don't think of everything, you haven't thought of anything at all." Which is patently false.
This is probably the wrong place to interject this...
I mentioned coffee first, as it's a primary driver in my campaign. (Yes, it's my damned fault!) No, it's probably not fully compliant with canon (especially Canonfire's majority interpretation of canon), but then again, it's my campaign.
As I use it: The SB need hard currency, intelligence, and connections for their actions again The Rest of the World (tm). Traders are a good source of all three, so they set up their own Company, ostensibly to trade coffee to the Flanaess. No, it's not grown everywhere, but they are exanding their operations as they go. With coffee, they get into some ports, make contact with smugglers who can get them into the rest of the ports, and gather lots of information regarding shipping, ports, defenses, trade, etc. Perhaps they brought some with them; perhaps they imported the seeds; perhaps they discovered it growing natively.
As for using a set ecosystem at a certain time in Earth's history as a strict basis for a fantasy campaign, I've gotta call "shenanigans". No, everything is not available everywhere, but one can probably find tea, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, syphilis, etc. It's not like nobody ever sailed a ship in the last five millenia...
"Cauldron and coffee" is another thing entirely, one that I could do without. Ironically, I'm running a character through SCAP right now (Huzzah for second level! Huzzah for not-too-many spoilers!). I have no idea why they picked coffee, but the fact that it is a huge trade good might have something to do with it. As I understand it (not having read the SCAP), the entire adventure can be done without a single direct reference to "Greyhawk", although the "default pantheon" is used.
Well, it wasn't initially concieved as a GH product. That was something added later. As for the default pantheon being used, that means nothing about its GH-ness. The default pantheon isn't identical to the GH one. There are a variety of minor and a couple major changes between the GH gods and the Core Pantheon that is based on them.
As for the ecosystems discussion, sure lots of things travelled around the world by a variety of means. But there are many, many things that only moved because humans explicitly moved them. And those just so happen to be the sorts of things most interesting to people seeking to answer questions of trade, economy, and ecology.
Cauldron brings many problems to GH given that it was, in fact, shoehorned into the Flanaess half-way through the first AP. My opinions on this are elsewhere (summarised: more mud and nasty, less frock coats and ruffs).
Coffee plantations are certainly one of these. I see coffee as being a Baklunish/Bakhoury Coast thing for a number of reasons:
1: It fits better culturally. Coffee being associated with South America is a modernism. Coffee in the Middle Ages was a Middle Eastern drink. The Olman have their coca leaves and cacao seed drinks; the Baklunish have their coffee that you can stand a wand up in.
2: It gives the Moquollods something to trade along the Great Western Road for all that excess Flanaessi gold, silver, electrum, platimum,. copper and VI gems.
3: Did I mention there's an Ekbiri city-port called Kofeh yet in this thread?
Lassiviren has suggested a get around for local coffee plantations in Cauldron - that coffee beans were brought there and propogated by this Surabar fella, who may have been a wandering Baklunish mage.
An elaboration of that is that the coffee that thrives in Cauldron is the Flanaessi equivalent of Robusta - i.e. not as tasty and yumsome as the real Baklunish/Bakoury "Arabica" (Baklunica?). The Baklunica wouldn't grow in Cauldron, so Surabar was left to sup down burnt rubber Robusta (much to his disgust, I'm sure). That preserves the premium for "real" Baklunish coffee. It's possible that the Cauldronians, not being aware of the beverage value, use the beans mainly as an animal foodstuff (as the Ethiopians did originally, if Wikipedia is to be believed).
Another get around is that the type of "coffee" found in the Amedio/Hepmonaland isn't in fact coffee - but something almost but not entirely unlike it - in the way that cayenne pepper was mistaken for black pepper by early explorers. Amedio "coffee" = root chicory in a bean; Bakhoury coffee = real thing.
As for a reason for the Flanaess (or the SB) to go trading - I know I sound like a broken record here - but, hello, spices!
The jungles of Zahind, the Hydranians and Suhfang are likely to have lots of interesting spices that currently only filter into the Flanaess either by the long and expensive detour through the Baklunish lands or in small amounts through the SB/Lords of the Isles (small because the SB antagonised the Zahindi/Hydranians with their Suel supremacist schtick - something which no doubt caused much slapping of foreheads among the more pragmatic Duxchaner traders). We know there is a, as Erik described it somewhere, "polyglot" sea trade in the western Pearl Sea. Those guys aren't trading beads and shells.
Spices (inc stuff like sugar), dyestuffs, incense, tea - that's where the profits lie. Arms and armour probably aren't a good tradestuff (they weren't in the real world before firearms came along). The rajas and sultans of Malabar and the East Indies and the Great Mughals of India demanded hard gold for their spices. The early expeditions of the East India company brought shiploads of English woollens to India/East Indies and had the brass neck to be surprised to find that no one really wanted to exchange them for spices (which goes to show that rarity alone doesn't make a commodity valuable). I don't see how it'd be different on Oerth.
I think the point that everyone is missing is simple. Coffee was an unneeded addition to gh lore. There's plenty of canon products, even leaving slaves out of the picture, in the area that would have been just as suitable, without adding more confusion and clutter to the already muddled Amedio. . . .
This is a case of what I call frivolous canon. It wasn't needed, and as this thread attests, only causes confusion and debate. Good canon should do just the opposite, advanced the setting in a logical manner, and bring fans together.
I see your point, which I interpret as "we might as well embrace the canon, we're stuck with it, make the best of it" and I don't disagree in general, but as you surely know, the Olman/Amedio is one of my touchy spots when it comes to canon, and I'd far prefer future material on them try and actually weave some of the disparate elements together and make the region and people something worth showcasing in a campaign.
I see your point. No argument. If we could do it again, choosing a more suitable resource would be preferred. I'd have chosen cochineal. But given that coffee was chosen, while I'd have made a different choice, I can get along with coffee. _________________ GVD
If you recreate ecosystems, you (and your players) can make reasonable extrapolations of what is there and what is not. If you utilize a potluck method to develop your regional ecosystems, you are left with DM fiat as the only reason for things. This eliminates any player ability to analyze the environment and, ultimately, puts the DM in the situation of this thread: having no idea what is where or how it would all interact save by arbitrary decisions.
I don't think its necessary to be as precise as Samwise is, but I do think its much easier to follow the real world where possible.
In the main, I agree. I think I differ in the degree to which one must adhere is strict earthly analogs. I don't see a need to confine plants solely to environments analogous their place of origin on Earth, if they could have been transplanted and could grow elsewhere. _________________ GVD
Not meaning to be obtuse but I am just not seeing this danger you are identifying. Little help?
Vorm beat me to it, my reply below is essentially the same point
The way I am reading Sam's point works out to a matter of believability in the setting. Not realism, per se, but suspension of disbelief and a modicum of familiarity.
If by adopting a loose "pre-industrial southeast asia" ecological model for the Amedio, we create a feeling among other DMs and players of "hey, ok, I can dig that", they are more likely to want to craft adventures there. To understand and develop the Olman we must, as individual campaign overlords as well as collaborators in the community, understand the benchmarks we are given to work with. Environment is a very important aspect of any culture, and it's one of the key components of new development we have to understand and relate to. By knowing what manner of plants, and thereby what manner of mundane animals we might find, we can begin to understand how the people live. Constantly changing the ecological environment benchmark causes a state of perpetual chaos.
In the main, I am in agreement but differ in the degree of adherence necessary. I am less strict and would not strictly confine a plant to an environment analogous to its earthly point of origin. If it can be transplanted and thrive in another environment, I'd think that good enough. With the Amedio as SE Asia, and coffee now grown in the Amedio as coffee is now grown in SE Asia, I don't think familiarity is damaged or credulity stretched. It does raise the issue of how it got there, but that is a separate issue, I think. _________________ GVD
Hmm, I was thinking of coffee solely in conjuction with its use in Cauldron. As in, it might have come with whomever set up cauldron or whatever. If we are talking about making coffee beans a widespread native crop, then yeah, I agree its a much bigger problem than Sasserine/Cauldron is by itself in terms of its implications for the entire region.
Since, as Sam pointed out, coffee is a crop native to Africa, and Africa is at least nominally the inspiration for the southern areas of hepmonaland, if we were to agree that coffee is rare, if not unknown in the Amedio, but was brought to the hills and mountains around cauldron by those who settled that city, I'd be fine with it. . . .
Since there is no real benchmark, published or otherwise, in existence for the evology of the touv homeland, IMO it is far less potentially harmful to the setting, and future development, to have coffee come from that region.
Wolfsire pointed out the Hepmonaland option as well, earlier in the thread. This would make a fine explaination for how coffee got to the Amedio, as Hepmonaland is right next door (work out the details to suit). So, again, I'm having little difficulty with the end result - coffee as a current corp in the Amedio. _________________ GVD
In the long run, I'm not that fanatical either. But you have to start out as a frothing lunatic to make sure what you wind up with is the best possible material at the end. Just letting stuff go because its easy leads to throwawy references like the coffee in Cauldron when it doesn't fit.
Uh huh. Okay then, you "frothing lunatic" you. _________________ GVD
No one seemed to mind when I put Murlynd in a pink alpaca poncho for the Amedio article “Barbakoa, Alligator Accession.” Perhaps if I attributed the color to a massive coffee stain, rather than a stray red sock in a washing machine, I would have gotten more of a reaction.
So, will Llamapaluza be held in Sasserine this year, what with all the kids hyped up on mocca chocalata and pirate juice? “Neya shacarl shuhesijo abosaki?”
In the long run, I'm not that fanatical either. But you have to start out as a frothing lunatic to make sure what you wind up with is the best possible material at the end. Just letting stuff go because its easy leads to throwawy references like the coffee in Cauldron when it doesn't fit.
Uh huh. Okay then, you "frothing lunatic" you.
Save some of that froth for my Capuccino... Oh, wait, those are Italian monks. But not D&D Monks...
Wait . . . you had American camelids in the Flanaess?
AIIIIIEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is using consonance “throwing a hodge-podge around” rather than “serv[ing] the interests of the _SETTING_?” Oh yeah, they figured that one out when they named U3, my bad.
No doubt the canonfire will find a way to fit the square peg yet again.
Personally I always saw it as baklunish myself, perhaps the easiest work around is the amedio beverage isn't coffee but something similar though inferior that was mistaken for or even marketed as "coffee".
What is using consonance “throwing a hodge-podge around” rather than “serv[ing] the interests of the _SETTING_?” Oh yeah, they figured that one out when they named U3, my bad.
Just because Murlynd picks up an alpaca suit while planehopping doesn't mean you get to send the camelid cavalry swarming into the Flanaess!
Just to interject here again, I think you guys are blowing the coffee thing out of proportion. After all it is one line in the HUGE SCAP hardcover.
The other stated industries are sugarcane, obsidian, hard woods (I am thinking teak, mahogany, etc.) and a diamond mine of some sort. None of these things are given any detail what so ever in the book.
The reason I initially focused on it was because when I started running the SCAP I wanted a valid reason for this place to exist at all and decided it was an early Suel outpost that found diamonds and easy access to the Underdark races for trade. Surabar was sought out to stop a demon infestation after the Twin Cataclysms by a ghaele eladrin. It just made sense to me that Surabar being a Mage of Power (earth elementalist) would not be from the Flanaess or Suel, and his name sounds slightly Baklunish. After stopping the demon horde he found the abandoned outpost and over the course of 700 years it grew into what it is now. The best I could come up with using what is in the book.
And actually the sugarcane is the one that bothers me more than coffee, I don't really see it doing well in such an elevated environment. My experience is that it likes areas below sea level.
And actually the sugarcane is the one that bothers me more than coffee, I don't really see it doing well in such an elevated environment. My experience is that it likes areas below sea level.
Wolfsire pointed out the Hepmonaland option as well, earlier in the thread. This would make a fine explaination for how coffee got to the Amedio, as Hepmonaland is right next door (work out the details to suit). So, again, I'm having little difficulty with the end result - coffee as a current corp in the Amedio.
Also keep in mind that what we have in the SCAP predates the Olman in the Amedio by quite a while. Not saying that the Olman couldn't have brought the robusta to Cauldron much later than its formation, just a cautionary note on my part.
When running the SCAP myself I leave the Olman completely out of the picture except for a trade route along the mountains to Xamaclan. (And of course as slave fodder for those that choose to invade the Amedio from Sasserine from time to time.)
My idea was that the Suel Imperium was responsible for enslaving and basically depopulating the indigenous Flan that originally lived in the area. Other than the few that made it to Redgorge/Cauldron with help from Surabar.
I'd agree with Woesinger's assertion that coffee should be Baklunish in origin BUT I also like his idea that the Amedio coffee is Robustica and is native to that region. It makes sense to me since real Arabica originated in Ethiopia and Robustica in west Africa. There is the matter of the difference in latitude but I don't see why it couldn't have happened that way.
This gives me an idea for intrigue expanding on Glenn's original idea of PC's getting involved in trade with the southlands. If the PC's were to introduce Robustica to the Flanaess might not the Moquollod be a little upset at the threat to their monopoly? Pretty soon you have Baklunish assassins coming out of the wood-work trying to quash the PC's and their business. A little over the top maybe but it's something you could work with.
Not to mention the scene when the PC's get back to the Flanaess and their backers/business partners react to the return cargo -
"I send you off with good iron-mongery to trade and you come back with beans! What? Are they MAGIC BEANS!?"
"I send you off with good iron-mongery to trade and you come back with beans! What? Are they MAGIC BEANS!?"
"In a sense, m'lord. With a small shop, some young workers, and perhaps an out-of-work bard - sorry, that was redundant - a bard, First Mate Starbuck and myself will begin to convert these beans into more gold than you can imagine."
A few notes from someone who lives in a land where coffee was King...
For my taste in pseudo realism (or, trying not to strain suspension of disbelief), ecology trumps culture. That is, I prefer to have coffee come from a place on Oerth that could actually grow coffee, rather than being
associated with an Oerth culture that is an analog of an Earth culture we associate with coffee. That is, just because the Baklunish are Arab analogs gives them no claim to coffee unless somewhere in Baklunia has land that is appropriate for growing coffee.
I am comfortable with coffee growing anywhere in the Flaneass that coffee could reasonably grow on earth. That is, sub tropical highlands and tropical highlands. The elevation is important. Volcanic soils help, but are not required. The coffee should be grown in the shade, under another crop. Here in Costa Rica, it is usually grown under banana trees.
This is shade coffee, which is the traditional crop, and which I think should be the only kind available on Oerth. Coffee CAN be grown in lowlands and in direct sun, which is done in Brazil. But this is a modern development. It requires large applications of pesticides and the coffee produced is so bitter it requires lots of sugar be added. (The instant coffee you buy in the stores can be up to half sugar). That coffee is also picked by machine whereas shade coffee is picked by hand.
I appreciate Samwise´s rigor in insisting on geographical analogs of Africa, the Americas, etc. I think that it is even valuable for deciding where on Oerth coffee or corn or another crop originated. However, crops that are good, spread. People can learn new cultivars. The Flan or Olman or Suel needn´t stay locked into growing crops that were originally part of their culture. Sometimes adoption is slow, sometimes it is very fast. I think there has been enough time and enough contact in the Flaneass for non native crops to have spread far beyond their region of origin. It took more than a hundred years for potatoes and tomatoes to be adopted at any scale in Europe after their introduction, but they eventually were adopted. Sam´s own chronology of Keoland is parralled by real world dates. In the thousand some years of history that represents, how much did crops move around Earth? Tobacco is a new world crop, and comes from southern north america. However, it seems that it was unknown by native alaskans pre Columbus. The trade routes that existed had not brought it that far north in thousands of years. But when the first white north americans began arriving in Alaska, the natives did have tobacco that they acquired by trading with russians, that is, it had circled the globe through europe, asia, and across the Berring Straight faster than it could move up from the lower 48.
Where coffee is CURRENTLY grown in the Flaneass then depends, for me, on where the ecology and the economic culture currently permit it, regardless of where it originated. I think that could include the Yeomary and Shar in the Flaneass proper. I don´t know enough about the southern lands to be satisfied they they have the elevations required.
Coffee does not have to be grown on plantations to be profitable. Here in Costa Rica, it has been more traditional to have it on very small holdings. However, for it to be an export of any importance, there does have to be a processing and distribution network. A small farmer, or a hundred small farmers, can grow some coffee "on the side", but they all sell it to the same company to process and export the beans. Thus, coffee for export should depend on whether the economics of your campaign are that advanced.
Coffee as a crop is very seasonal and very labor intensive. Here in CR, it is usually picked in December. For 50 weeks out of the year, the fields require almost no attention. For 2 weeks when the coffee is ripe, everyone and their brother needs to help pick it. Traditionally, small farmers would call in their large extended families and everyone would work on nothing but that until it got done. Having a large coffee PLANTATION requires a readily available surplus labor supply, probably paid in cash. Here in CR, we see a seasonal flood of leagal and illegal immigrants, mainly Nicaraguans, during picking time. If you have a slave economy already, probably the slaves could be "shifted" onto and off of coffee as needed. However, if your model is small freeholders or feudal serfs, large plantations are probably not possible. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Sam´s own chronology of Keoland is parralled by real world dates. In the thousand some years of history that represents, how much did crops move around Earth?
Ah, but those dates were chosen to correspond to the current date.
A more direct correlation would have had me using the death of Romulus Augustus as the "year" of the Twin Cats, putting the current date short of 1500. Crops moved around suprisingly little in that time, as the Americas were not yet discovered, and most other transfers had already occurred. I believe a few specialized transfers, silk worms, spices, and a few citrus fruits, continued at this time.
And of course, Europeans discovered the Arabs drinking coffee, and the Arabs refused to let them have any fertile beans.
A more direct correlation would have had me using the death of Romulus Augustus as the "year" of the Twin Cats, putting the current date short of 1500. Crops moved around suprisingly little in that time, as the Americas were not yet discovered, and most other transfers had already occurred.
OK, but in the Flaneass the equivalent of the Americas being discovered HAS already happened. There is some contact with Hepmonaland and Amedeo.
Whether that is sufficient for crops to have been adopted is I believe open to DM interpretation, but I do not find it prima facie unreasonable. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
OK, but in the Flaneass the equivalent of the Americas being discovered HAS already happened. There is some contact with Hepmonaland and Amedeo.
Whether that is sufficient for crops to have been adopted is I believe open to DM interpretation, but I do not find it prima facie unreasonable.
Right.
Except Hepmonaland and the Amedio are southeast Asian, and don't have native coffee, so it couldn't be found there.
As for bringing it there, who exactly would grow it? The barbarian Suel and Olman?
Except Hepmonaland and the Amedio are southeast Asian, and don't have native coffee, so it couldn't be found there.
As for bringing it there, who exactly would grow it? The barbarian Suel and Olman?
I am confused. To start off with, Hepmonaland and the Amedio are not southeast Asian, Oerth not Earth. I know you know that and I appreciate the utility of using SE Asia for comparison to an Amedian rice economy. But why does that have to extend to Hepmonaland or every aspect of ecology short of sentient and supernatural beings? Or every part of Hepmonaland and the greater Amedio, calling particular attention to the non-jungle regions, southern regions in H and A, as well as the mountains. It seems to me that you have bootstrapped too much from the notion that canon corn is absurd, not that bootstrapping is necessarily bad, but it can be taken too far.
I cannot imagine barbarians Suel and Olman are growing the stuff now on any exportable level, but the Olman were not always barbarians, and in Xamaclan they are not now. Barbarians could very well grow the stuff for personal, seasonal consumption. Why is it not reasonable for the bean to have originated in southern Hepmonaland, but then spread with the Olman after Touv introduction into micro-ecologies through the jungles, or just directly after the migrations, to stable regions where it could be farmed commercially?
There may be good reasons not to have any coffee down there, but that Hepmonaland and the Amedio are Southeast Asian and local Olman and Suel are barbarians, do not seem to me to be them.
Also keep in mind that what we have in the SCAP predates the Olman in the Amedio by quite a while. Not saying that the Olman couldn't have brought the robusta to Cauldron much later than its formation, just a cautionary note on my part.
Can you explain this for me? I do not own SCAP. Is there some date tied to the introduction coffee in Cauldron?
Except Hepmonaland and the Amedio are southeast Asian, and don't have native coffee, so it couldn't be found there.
As for bringing it there, who exactly would grow it? The barbarian Suel and Olman?
So when did the Elves and Dwarves get imported? They're European, not southeast Asian. Or do the mythological aspects of the fantasy world not have to follow their Earthly counterparts? (As opposed to the factual aspects of the fantasy world, I guess...)
If we can throw all kinds of nasty beasts, truly alien cultures, and impossible physics (magic) into the mix, why is moving a plant that is proven to thrive in that environment so impossible? I'm not suggesting we grow a tropical plant in in the cold steppes of certain Baklunish nomad tribes.
As for how it got there, maybe the Grey Elves like a good cuppa... I understand it helps when you only get two hours of sleep a night.
Can you explain this for me? I do not own SCAP. Is there some date tied to the introduction coffee in Cauldron?
There is no date for when coffee was introduced to Cauldron (like I said it is simply one line after the city stats), my interpretation was simply using Surabar as the first to do it because he is Baklunish. Surabar came to the Amedio 700 years prior to the current year which was probably around 592CY. If I am remembering the Scarlet Brotherhood correctly the Olman didn't arrive in the Amedio until 100-200 years later.
Which is not to say if you want coffee introduced by the Olman that it couldn't have happened that way. Surabar being Baklunish is simply my creation there is little to no background on him other than him being extremely powerful earth elementalist.
In fact the version of the Olman that I like/use for my campaign is an island hopping civilization that moved to Hepmonaland and Amedio as they expanded from the middle of their ocean, similar to the Polynesians.
Telas, have you read any of the the other posts? That's been discussed quite extensively already. But I''ll reiterate:
EVERY aspect of a fantasy campaign world is an arbitrary decision on the part of the world designer/DM. You can have coffee grow in the amedio, along the bakhoury coast, or in teh thillonrillian peninsula. You are the DM.
But a section of the participants in these discussions chose to make the arbitrary decision to use real world ecologies to provide consistent standards and references for the DM's decisions. Since the canon plantlife of the Amedio is best exemplified by the real world Southeast asian jungle environments, having plants that don't naturally belong there (even if they could exist just fine) undermines the whole point of having a baseline in the first place.
There is nothing wrong with making everything up as you go along, if that's what floats your boat. But that method is not going to produce consistency nor innately suggest adventure possibilities or help with strategic thinking about trade and the like.
Consistency and verissimilitude of that degree is of little use to the majority of gamers, in my experience. But it is still the way I (and others) prefer to approach things.
Telas, have you read any of the the other posts? That's been discussed quite extensively already.
Yes, I have read the entire thread a couple of times, both as it's written, and again to see if I missed anything. No, I do not seek to offend, but I do use irony, humor, and light sarcasm pretty readily. (A sarcastic gamer? No way!)
I understand that some members prefer to use certain strict standards in their campaigns (base Oerth ecologies off Earth ecologies, with no non-native or introduced species). I'm cool with that; life is more interesting when people have different opinions. I'm very glad that the "take it and make it yours" approach to campaign settings is alive and well.
But to say of coffee in Amedio/Hepmonaland, "it couldn't be found there," when you're baselining off a region of Earth where it's currently cultivated, when we have plenty of options for how it got there, and we even have options for why it's being cultivated there, is to force a very rigid interpretation on GH Canon.
And from reading the posts here, it seems like most of the other posters do not have as strong an interpretation of ecologic parallels between Earth and Oerth. The consensus seems to be that it's reasonable that coffee be grown in A/H. Perhaps not on the scale I'm using, but reasonable nonetheless.
By the way, this kerfuffle is not related at all to the Cauldron Coffee Conundrum, which sounds like a poorly-researched assumption (tropical volcanic slopes = coffee), and something that could be changed without any further implications for the SCAP (but I'll know more in 18 levels or so... ).
But to say of coffee in Amedio/Hepmonaland, "it couldn't be found there," when you're baselining off a region of Earth where it's currently cultivated, when we have plenty of options for how it got there, and we even have options for why it's being cultivated there, is to force a very rigid interpretation on GH Canon.
Telas
Well, Samwise can defend the absolutism of that statement if he wants. :) But I would say that it ought not be a native crop there and none of the inhabitants of Cauldron seem to be from anywhere where it it ought to be from. A backstory for it could be created, but such seems likely to be unduly tortured to me.
So when did the Elves and Dwarves get imported? They're European, not southeast Asian. Or do the mythological aspects of the fantasy world not have to follow their Earthly counterparts? (As opposed to the factual aspects of the fantasy world, I guess...)
Given there are no elves or dwarves there, they never were.
As for elves and dwarves in the Flanaess, they are immigrants.
Quote:
If we can throw all kinds of nasty beasts, truly alien cultures, and impossible physics (magic) into the mix, why is moving a plant that is proven to thrive in that environment so impossible? I'm not suggesting we grow a tropical plant in in the cold steppes of certain Baklunish nomad tribes.
It is not impossible. But see the previous posts and consistency and suspension of disbelief.
OK, but in the Flaneass the equivalent of the Americas being discovered HAS already happened. There is some contact with Hepmonaland and Amedeo.
Whether that is sufficient for crops to have been adopted is I believe open to DM interpretation, but I do not find it prima facie unreasonable.
Right.
Except Hepmonaland and the Amedio are southeast Asian, and don't have native coffee, so it couldn't be found there.
As for bringing it there, who exactly would grow it? The barbarian Suel and Olman?
When you say that Hepmonaland is SE Asian, does that include the southern tip, with the vast savannahs of the Touv?
By your standard, is there anywhere near the Flaneass that could serve as a source of "native african" analog flora and fauna? _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Does there need to be an african source area to explain aspects of the fauna and flora of the Flaneass? That is, are there plants and animals in the flaneass supported by canon that could only have come from an african analog source area, or can we simply reject anything african from the flaneass?
Looking at the tree list in WoG, I did not spot any obviously african (but I don't know much about trees).
The WoGG encounter tables all reference the standard encounter tables. Flipping through the DMG1, I found the following "african" animals:
While most of these have species that are native to africa, they also have species that are from the middle east or SE asia, and so could come from a hepmonaland that is purely SE asian analogs.
The only two that I think are endemic to africa are the hippopotomus (DMG1 p, 179, 189, 190) and the baboon (DMG1 p. 189).
So, if one actually thinks this is important, I would either accept coffee and postulate the existance of some Oerth source area for african things like hippopomi and baboons, or reject coffee and strike the hippopotomi and baboons from the encounter tables of the flaneass.
_________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
When I saw the touv and there plains; I immediately view the african grasslands.
Can't the various areas that the olman moved into although jungle be a different flora and fauna, such as an african or cental america rain forest variety that they adapted too instead of the SE asian model?
the encounter tables for hepmonaland in The Scarlet Brotherhood have entries for baboon, gorilla, cheetah, and zebra.
Given this, I see the Ino Hills as a possible source area for coffee, if of sufficient elevation. _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Everything on the Touv in SB is suspect. The original GH setting material made those southern jungles SE Asian. By ignoring that, SB opens itself to being completely ignored for any subsequent development.
As for whether anywhere in the Flanaess is an analog of Africa, the answer is no. I ask in return, why is such necessary? There is the rest of Oerik waiting out there to fill. Why force everything into the Flanaess? That will lead to a mishmash like the original area of Mystara, or something like the Beyonder's battle planet.
BLEAH!
As for altering the encounter tables, that is a great place to start making the Flanaess a more reasonable setting. Every animal and plant in existence doesn't have to exist everywhere. That is what weasel players demand so their druids can have any animal companion, and wild shape into any form. Why not have dinosaurs everywhere in the Flanaess at that rate?
Everything on the Touv in SB is suspect. The original GH setting material made those southern jungles SE Asian.
Not to doubt your knowledge of Greyhawk, but where in the original GH setting material is this mentioned? I see cannibal Suel, dakons, gibberlings, slavers, tribesmen, and no other salient details in the 1983 boxed set.
Actually, IIRC, the SE Asian assertion is based on the example flora, not the example fauna. As mentioned, the encounter tables are not particularly reliable for this sort of analysis (the giant crocodiles in every marsh type of problem....).
As Vormaerin noted. It comes from Mar (aka Chiribias, Despotrix) reviewing the list of local trees in the older sets.
I would also note I1 - Dwellers of the Forbidden City, which was rather southeast Asian in nature.
The list of trees (banyan, baobab, deklo, mahogany, palm, and teak) strikes me as inconclusive. Banyan and teak are southeast Asian, baobab and mahogany are African, palms are everywhere, and deklo trees are fictitious. It seems to me you could assume that banyan and teak are native to the Amedio and baobab and mahogany are native to Hepmonaland, which would mean the Amedio (bordering "Zindia") is southeast Asian and Hepmonaland is African (or Madagascaran).
If this is the case, any southeast Asian influence (for example, the Forbidden City) could be attributed to colonists from the western side of the Densac, while the Touv could still reasonably be assumed to be as African as their native flora.
Could do that, though I think crushing the entire world's ecologies into the relatively small space that is the Flanaess is a bit distasteful. I think if its that important to for Hepmonaland to be African for the Touv (if the Touv are Kersi, perhaps Anakeris is Africa?), I'd rather make the Amedio into more Congolese Jungle and send the indonesian/burmese stuff packing off elsewhere in the bounds of Oerth.
As for whether anywhere in the Flanaess is an analog of Africa, the answer is no. I ask in return, why is such necessary? There is the rest of Oerik waiting out there to fill. Why force everything into the Flanaess?
I did not write anywhere IN the Flanaess, I wrote anywhere NEAR the Flanaess. If you want to preserve the Asian purity of Hepmonaland, fine. But as you say, the rest of Oerik is out there to fill. Is there anywhere that could function as an African analog close enough for the transfer of crops? _________________ My campaigns are multilayered tapestries upon which I texture themes and subject matter which, quite frankly, would simply be too strong for your hobbyist gamer. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Mp7Ikko8SI
Sam don't mean to get your back up (maybe a little)
But if you can ignore the SB simply because it was badly written and doesn't fit your version of GH doesn't that also allow GVD for example to disregard sources that call into question his baklunish theory.
Correct me, but haven't you for sometime been arguing against "cherry picking" which sources are valid and ignoring others due to the lack of consistenacy this produces in GH history?
I guess everyone has there corner of GH that they are willing to bend for a "pet theory".
I think if its that important to for Hepmonaland to be African for the Touv
I would actually argue against a straight identification of the Touv with Africans. I used the qualifier could.
Quote:
I think crushing the entire world's ecologies into the relatively small space that is the Flanaess is a bit distasteful.
The alternative, if we are to take the World of Greyhawk boxed set literally, is that both the Amedio and Hepmonaland are grab-bags of tropical foliage, containing species that are found, in our world, on seperate continents.
One advantage we have with the Oerth is that we aren't limited to the ecologies of our world. Maybe all of Earth's species are found on the Darlene Map, while distant lands have entirely alien ecologies, full of species we can only imagine.
I'm not inclined to identify them directly with the africans, either. Nor do I think that you have to have an african ecology to have a psuedo-african culture.
And, as written, GH is clearly a grab bag, not just in ecology, but in everything else. Spaceships, real world and fictional gods, comic relief dungeons, all manner of cross genre stuff, wonky economics, and so on.
Its not that you have to abide by any restrictions except those of the DM's divising; after all, in practice there are none. The purpose of the identifications is to give the DM a guide to what to include and what to not. The mishmash neither helps nor hinders the DM in making arbitrary deciosns. t
Sam don't mean to get your back up (maybe a little)
But if you can ignore the SB simply because it was badly written and doesn't fit your version of GH doesn't that also allow GVD for example to disregard sources that call into question his baklunish theory.
Correct me, but haven't you for sometime been arguing against "cherry picking" which sources are valid and ignoring others due to the lack of consistenacy this produces in GH history?
I guess everyone has there corner of GH that they are willing to bend for a "pet theory".
You need to have some starting point for canon consistency.
Generally, one chooses the earliest used point, and requires all subsequent material to be consistent with that. (And do note, being consistent doesn't mean a lack of change, it means consistent.)
Rejecting SB as a source, or at least those parts that are inconsistent with prior material, means restoring consistency to GH history.
As for myself, pick how you want to justify coffee, or whatever else, you want in a particular place, and I will happily argue against it on those grounds alone. If you appeal to canon, I will present canon arguments. if you appeal to simple desire, I will do the same.
What I dislike, and refuse to accept, is if someone wants to pick one and refuse to accept my rebuttal on the same grounds. If you appeal to canon, you must accept my canon counters. If you speak on personal preference, you must equally accept my statements of personal preference as legitimate alternatives.
For this, I dislike it from canon, and I dislike it from personal preference. You may pick which set of arguments you prefer, but as long as both are presented in favor, I will feel free to present both in opposition.
I did not write anywhere IN the Flanaess, I wrote anywhere NEAR the Flanaess. If you want to preserve the Asian purity of Hepmonaland, fine. But as you say, the rest of Oerik is out there to fill. Is there anywhere that could function as an African analog close enough for the transfer of crops?
I don't know, is there?
Show me a bunch of development on an area outside the Flanaess and I will tell you if I think it matches.
I'm not inclined to identify them directly with the africans, either. Nor do I think that you have to have an african ecology to have a psuedo-african culture.
I agree.
That is one of my complaints with the presentation of the Touv and southern Hepmonaland.
It is my opinion that Hepmonaland is African-esque. I base this on The Scarlet Brotherhood accessory, notes in the 83 boxed set referring to certain flora and fauna and on David Howery's article in Dragon about african roleplaying, which makes passing reference to Greyhawk (Hepmonaland - see the accompanying map) (noting that he had to make generic what was specifically GH as he created it - a odd case of "un-canon," to give it a name).
Point of fact, as has been noted in above, Hepmonaland and the Amedio are a mish-mash, incapable of being described as a direct african or asian analog, but having resemblences to both.
If I can channel Tzelios, , ignoring canon sources is not the way to go. One should rather harmonize or explain, hopefully both. But one can do as one pleases in home games, of course.
My notion to look at which commodities are where and, then, rare or traded, derives from another analog - the Flanaess is Europe. The Azure Sea becomes a Mediterranian analog and Hepmonaland becomes Africa in analog. The later not because it must but because the Amedio is by analog Central America - inhabited by the Olman, which are an amalgam of Mayan, Olmec, Toltec and Aztec, and which would live no where else but in a Central American analog. Hepmonaland is then left to be an African analog.
So then what trade passes or might pass in rare and valuable commodities between these areas and the Flanaess? The analog is again to Europe and its trade with Africa (not merely in the medieval period) and the Americas. _________________ GVD
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Before we wind up with "Children of the Corn - The Coming of Coffee," let me annunciate "Dammerung's Rule of Plant Propagation" 
Savage Tide got me to thinking about the piracy theme in the extents of the Pearl Sea, which got me to thinking about the commerce that would be pirated, which got me to thinking about what things would or might be traded from that area to the Flanaess if a DM were to use Savage Tide to introduce Flanaess PCs, and hence the Flanaess, to the wonders of the Pearl Sea.
No, everything is not available everywhere, but one can probably find tea, tomatoes, potatoes, tobacco, syphilis, etc. It's not like nobody ever sailed a ship in the last five millenia...
