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    Canonfire :: View topic - The Seldarine - Am I missing anybody?
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    The Seldarine - Am I missing anybody?
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:47 am  
    The Seldarine - Am I missing anybody?

    As far as I can tell, the elven pantheon, to include deities worshiped by the drow, includes the following -

    Corellon Larethian (GG) - Creator, Magic, Arts, Crafts, War - ALN CG *1
    Aerdrie Faenya (IG) - Air, Weather, Avians - ALN CG *1
    Erevan Ilesere (IG) - Mischief, Change, Rogues - ALN CN *1
    Fenmarel Mestarine (LG) - Feral Elves, Scapegoats - ALN CG *1
    Hanali Celanil (IG) - Romantic Love, Beauty - ALN CG *1
    Labelas Enoreth (IG) - Time, Longevity - ALN CG *1
    Solonor Thelandria (IG) - Archery, Hunting - ALN CG *1
    Deep Sashelas (IG) - Sea Elves, Creation, Knowledge, Beauty, Magic - ALN CG *1

    Rillifane Rallathil (IG) - Wood Elves, Woodlands, Nature - ALN CG *2

    Alobal Lorfiril (DG) - Revelry, Hedonism, Mirth, Magic - ALN CG *3
    Elebrin Liothiel (IG) - Nature, Gardens, Orchards, Harvest - ALN CG *3
    Vandria Gilmadrith (IG) - Law, Protection, War - ALN LN *3
    Sehanine Moonbow (IG) - Mysticism, Dreams, Death, Journeys, Transcendence, The Moon, Stars and Heavens - ALN CG *3

    Araleth Letheranil (LG) - Light - ALN CG *4
    Kirith Sotheril (LG) - Magic - ALN NG *4
    Melira Taralen (LG) - Fine Arts - ALN CG *4
    Naris Analor (LG) - Healing, Suffering, Death - ALN NG *4

    Tarsellis Meunninduin (LG) - Mountains, Wilderness - ALN CN *5
    Lolth (IG) - Spiders, Evil, Darkness - ALN CE *6

    Kiraransalee(i) (DG) - Undead, Vengence, Slavery - ALN CE *7
    Vhaerun (LG) - Thievery, Territory - ALN NE *7
    Zinzerina (DG) - Scheming, Rebellion, Chaos, Deception, Humiliation, Ambush, Assassination - ALN CN *7

    Keptolo (DG) - Flattery, Intoxication, Rumor, Opportunism - ALN CE *8

    *1 - These deities appear in the Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96
    *2 - Rillifane Rallathil apprears in the 1st Ed. Deities and Demigods Cyclopedia as well as in Dragon 191 at p. 22.
    *3 These deities appear in Races of the Wild in the section on elven deities.
    *4 These deities appear in Elfin Gods in Dragon 155 at p. 20.
    *5 Tarsellis Meunninduin appears in In the Frost and Snow in Dragon 155 at p. 26.
    *6 Lolth appears in the Monster Mythology and in Races of the Wild. Her mythology is developed in the 1st Ed. Fiend Folio (as a demon), in Dragon 155 as Megwandir a fallen elven deity, in Monster Mythology as a god and in Races of the Wild as Corellon Larethian’s fallen consort.
    *7 These deities appear in variant forms in Monster Mythology and The Vault of the Drow in Dragon 298 at p. 86.
    *8 Keptolo appears in The Vault of the Drow in Dragon 298 at p. 86.

    The above list includes only “official” (A)D&D elven deities. Not included are elven deities specific to the Forgotten Realms and similar settings etc. Elven deities that appear in various d20 and OGL (compatible with D&D 3rd Edition and licensed by Wotc) are also excluded.

    Within "official" (A)D&D, not including The Realms etc. or d20 and OGL products, am I missing any members of the Seldarine?
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:44 am  

    The Seldarine is the Elven pantheon in the FR game setting. The term is not accurate for Greyhawk.

    Dragon magazine did not, at the time of the issues you cite, publish official material for the setting. Except for Rillifane Rallathil which was specifically noted as errata for Monster Mythology, I am not aware that any of those other deities are in any way official.

    Sehanine Moonbow originally appeared in Monster Mythology.

    Lolth is only a fallen consort in the FR cosmology.
    GreySage

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:52 am  

    You seem to have missed Dragon #236, which includes some of the gods you've already mentioned, but introduces others.

    Kirith Sotheril (L; Dragon #236)
    Tethrin Veralde (D; Dragon #236)
    Araleth Letheranil (L; Dragon #236)
    Melira Taralen (L; Dragon #236)
    Naralis Analor (L; Dragon #236)
    Tarsellis Meunniduin (I; Dragon #236)
    Rellavar Danuvien (L; Dragon #236)

    The word "Seldarine" is as applicable to Greyhawk as it is the Forgotten Realms; it was used in Roger Moore's original Dragon article on the pantheon, in Unearthed Arcana, and in Monster Mythology. It wouldn't apply to the drow pantheon, however.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:54 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    The Seldarine is the Elven pantheon in the FR game setting. The term is not accurate for Greyhawk.


    Here we go, again.

    The use of Selderine is not limited to FR. Roger Moore in his Point of View articles first coined the term, I think, which was well before FR. A quick check of the Zavodex reveals the following -

    Seldarine [Deity][PPL]
    FTAA Pg# - 96
    LGG Pg# - 19,188
    LGJ#2 Pg# - 26
    PGTG Pg# - 21
    UA Pg# - 112

    Without checking each reference, I feel safe to say the Selderine is canon GH.

    Back to my initial question - does anyone know if I missed any members?
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:58 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    You seem to have missed Dragon #236, which includes some of the gods you've already mentioned, but introduces others.

    Kirith Sotheril (L; Dragon #236)
    Tethrin Veralde (D; Dragon #236)
    Araleth Letheranil (L; Dragon #236)
    Melira Taralen (L; Dragon #236)
    Naralis Analor (L; Dragon #236)
    Tarsellis Meunniduin (I; Dragon #236)
    Rellavar Danuvien (L; Dragon #236)

    The word "Seldarine" is as applicable to Greyhawk as it is the Forgotten Realms; it was used in Roger Moore's original Dragon article on the pantheon, in Unearthed Arcana, and in Monster Mythology. It wouldn't apply to the drow pantheon, however.


    Excellent! Thank you! Happy You are right. I missed 236. I will update the list. Anybody else?
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:58 am  

    Yes, here we go again.
    In other places the Seldarine is specifically referred to as the pantheon of Elves in the Forgotten Realms. I guess that doesn't matter though, since only some people get to selectively cite references.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 7:59 am  

    Great list!

    I presently lack access to my old Dragon issues. Was the elven god of runes, law, and balefire (?) one of those in issue 236?

    The consort notion doesn't sit well with me because it disturbs Corellon's interesting original androgyny.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:08 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    Yes, here we go again.
    In other places the Seldarine is specifically referred to as the pantheon of Elves in the Forgotten Realms. I guess that doesn't matter though, since only some people get to selectively cite references.


    No, Sam. I made very clear that in the list I was compiling I was excluding the Realms specific deities - "Within "official" (A)D&D, not including The Realms etc. or d20 and OGL products, am I missing any members of the Seldarine?" The Selderine is worshipped in both settings but I'm interested in GH and those members of the Selderine not specifically tied to the Realms etc. on that account.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:13 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    No, Sam. I made very clear that in the list I was compiling I was excluding the Realms specific deities - "Within "official" (A)D&D, not including The Realms etc. or d20 and OGL products, am I missing any members of the Seldarine?" The Selderine is worshipped in both settings but I'm interested in GH and those members of the Selderine not specifically tied to the Realms etc. on that account.


    Great.
    Dragon magazine deities are not "official" products, and thus not official members of the setting.

    Further, if you want an (A)D&D list, that is not synonymous with the Greyhawk list.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:15 am  

    mtg wrote:
    The consort notion doesn't sit well with me because it disturbs Corellon's interesting original androgyny.


    Agreed. And I think it disturbs a better Lolth myth, as well.

    As noted Lolth's mythology has evolved. From a demon "lord" in the 1st Ed. Fiend Folio, she has become a god.

    In Dragon 155, Lolth is described as formerly Megwandir in a love triangle with two other elven deities. If we have to go the god route, I prefer this mythology to "Corellon Larethian’s fallen consort." This preserves Corellon's androgyny and gives Lolth a broader grounding, IMO, in the Selderine.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:15 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    Yes, here we go again.
    In other places the Seldarine is specifically referred to as the pantheon of Elves in the Forgotten Realms. I guess that doesn't matter though, since only some people get to selectively cite references.


    Uh, yes. The Seldarine is the pantheon of elves in the Forgotten Realms. It's also the pantheon of elves in Greyhawk. I don't see the dissonance.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:28 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    Dragon magazine deities are not "official" products, and thus not official members of the setting.

    Further, if you want an (A)D&D list, that is not synonymous with the Greyhawk list.


    Well, this depends. It is not as cut and dried as you indicate. Dragon Magazine has always been "official," either by erstwhile declaration with Paizo or defacto in the days when Wotc and TSR published it. Of course, there is no "governing body" that certifies "officiality" but I think the point is at least as arguable as not. And so onward.

    The listing I'm looking for is specific in this regard -

    1) If there is a GH source that specifically includes a deity in the Selderine - great!

    2) If there is a source from another setting that introduces a member of the Selderine that does not appear elsewhere in a form not bound to that other setting - I'm looking at those deities as specifc in such case to the setting that mentions the deity.

    3) If a member of the Selderine is described that is general to the Selderine, not being specifically tied to any setting - I consider such deity to be included in general GH references to the Selderine and thus part of the Selderine as worshipped by elves in GH (there being no specific bar to that member of the Selderine being worshipped in GH). In other words, I see Selderine as an inclusive term unless a deity is specifically excluded in GH or excluded by being specific/unique to another setting.

    I think I am being clear.

    If you wish to use a narrower definition of Selderine in GH, you are welcome to do so but nothing suggests that such an approach is "canon."
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:35 am  

    [quote="rasgon"]
    Samwise wrote:
    Uh, yes. The Seldarine is the pantheon of elves in the Forgotten Realms. It's also the pantheon of elves in Greyhawk. I don't see the dissonance.


    Agreed. There is no dissonance. For example, Grazzt appears in FR and GH in substantially similar form. Extra-planar entities generally and the concept/details of the Great Wheel (prior to the redesign of FR) are common to multiple settings, most notably GH and FR. One does not necessarily preclude the other. I see no problems here especially as the Selderine, as a general concept, is referenced in a variety of GH sources.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:50 am  

    Samwise wrote:
    GVDammerung wrote:
    No, Sam. I made very clear that in the list I was compiling I was excluding the Realms specific deities - "Within "official" (A)D&D, not including The Realms etc. or d20 and OGL products, am I missing any members of the Seldarine?" The Selderine is worshipped in both settings but I'm interested in GH and those members of the Selderine not specifically tied to the Realms etc. on that account.


    Great.
    Dragon magazine deities are not "official" products, and thus not official members of the setting.

    Further, if you want an (A)D&D list, that is not synonymous with the Greyhawk list.


    Sam that doesnt make sense. By your definition then Nerull, Istus, Celstian, Farlangan, Pholtus and all of the others described in Dragon would not be official.

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:57 am  

    mtg wrote:
    Great list!

    I presently lack access to my old Dragon issues. Was the elven god of runes, law, and balefire (?) one of those in issue 236?


    No, that's Alathrien Druanna, who was described in Dragon #251. Good catch.


    From Dragon #251:

    Mythrien Sarath (The Protector)
    Sarula Iliene (The Nixie Queen)
    Darahl Firecloak (The Even-Tempered, Lord of the Green Flame)
    Alathrien Druanna (The Rune Mistress)
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:57 am  

    IIRC, the notion of the Seldarine, as originally articulated by Roger E. Moore ("REM"), indicated that it was a potentially large fellowship. I forget the word's proffered translation, something like the "Brother / Sisterhood of the Woodlands" or the "Dancing Flower Gods" or (insert joke here).

    For me then, the notion of the Seldarine suggests that different bands of olves may (not) honor / worship different members of their "pantheon." Like many folks, I used the REM pantheon, republished in Unearthed Arcana, Monster Mythology, etc., but today I question the basic notion of olven clerics of specific gods.

    Likely they should continue existing IMCs, but on the other hand, the notion parallels how humans tend to worship a bit much. I think I'd prefer to make olven priests more pantheonic, worshippers of the Seldarine overall. Of course, this raises the question of druids of Rillithane, Deep Sashelas, and Tarsellis Meunninduin / Fenmarel Mestarine ...

    Perhaps each of the gods that created a subrace is worshipped on a level equivalent to the veneration / adoration of Corellon? While I didn't like its pantheon, I enjoyed many of the religious and magical notions ascribed to wood elves in Green Ronin's Of Bow & Blade.
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:07 am  

    mtg wrote:
    For me then, the notion of the Seldarine suggests that different bands of olves may (not) honor / worship different members of their "pantheon." Like many folks, I used the REM pantheon, republished in Unearthed Arcana, Monster Mythology, etc., but today I question the basic notion of olven clerics of specific gods.

    Likely they should continue existing IMCs, but on the other hand, the notion parallels how humans tend to worship a bit much. I think I'd prefer to make olven priests more pantheonic, worshippers of the Seldarine overall. Of course, this raises the question of druids of Rillithane, Deep Sashelas, and Tarsellis Meunninduin / Fenmarel Mestarine ...


    I substantially agree. IMO -

    In its eschatology, epistemology, and myth-cycles, elven religion is as complex as any race. More so, in fact. As many races, elves have creation and propagation myths that propose how elves, elven culture and society came to be. For purposes of understanding elves as elves, precise details of elven religion are unnecessary. It is sufficient to comprehend three unique features of elven belief that inform elven actions.

    First, elven religion is not separate from any aspect of elven life. Religion does not exist in opposition to or along side a separate, secular reality. Elven religion permeates every aspect of elven existence. But quietly. Without demanding. As almost background or backdrop that is so natural as to need little comment. Elven clerics thus enjoy no special calling. Rather, they choose to emphasize those aspects of the elven divine, the Seldarine, in their lives that are equally open to all elves and equally a part of all elves lives. Elves have no bureaucratic priesthoods like those in many human institutions.

    Second, elven religiosity is quite unlike that of much of humanity. Human religions have a frequent tendency to produce at one extreme fanatics (those openly obsessed with religious trappings and dogma or those by equal degrees ascetic) and at the other extreme atheists or those estranged from religious belief or thought. Elven religion admits of neither. Elven religion produces philosophers, not fanatics. Indeed, elven religion resembles philosophy far more than religion in human terms. The Seldarine embody philosophic principles intrinsic to the elven self, as much as holding sway purely by virtue of divine might in one portfolio or another. One can say that if the Seldarine were not divine, they would still be revered by elves for the philosophies they embody. The corollary is that elven worship is more akin to reverence or extreme respect than the abasement to a higher power familiar in many human religions, with a consequence that elves are more cognizant of the philosophic ramifications of their actions.

    This is so because the Seldarine are not seen by elves as being of a fundamentally different nature than mortal elves. They are ascended and divine by virtue of their ascendence. They are not fundamentally divine beyond consideration of the principles they embody. The exception to this general rule is Corellon Larethian. As the elven creator deity, Corellon Larethian stands both within and outside of the Seldarine. Corellon Larethian comes closest to human conceptions of divinity.

    Third, there is a cohesion of belief in the Seldarine and its associated deities among elves unknown among humanity at large. Doctrinal disputes and schisms, other than those involving the drow, are virtually unknown. The Seldarine are understood by elves consistently or are consistently mysterious and, in either event, are seen in large measure as a gestalt. For this reason, with few exceptions, the elven pantheon is worshiped as a whole. Worship of, even dedication to, a single deity is almost universally within the context of the whole or gestalt.

    The practical consequence is that religion for elves is a cohesive force within their society. Indeed, it is part of their society in an unselfconscious way, rather than the divisive or distinctly separate force of religion so often encountered in human cultures. While retaining marked individual independence, elves can function as a unit with remarkable ease as they have a cohesive, shared religion/philosophy which informs how they conduct themselves independently as individuals. Elves find it remarkably easy to agree with each other or to reach compromise where agreement is not obvious.

    In GH, IMO, It is in this way that Celene is capable of acting with a purpose, yet without the structures that would be necessary in a human kingdom to achieve a similar efficiency in action. IMO, elven nobility is not feudally based but based upon the "enlightened" state of the ruling elf.

    YMMV
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:08 pm  

    The Seldarine were not part of the original vision of Greyhawk. The drow deities in particular do not match with the early material. They have been adopted by later authors wholesale, however, and it would be difficult to reasonably claim they aren't canon at this point.

    Of course, that doesn't mean we are stuck using them in our campaigns. Thankfully. :)
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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 8:51 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    IIRC, the notion of the Seldarine, as originally articulated by Roger E. Moore ("REM"), indicated that it was a potentially large fellowship. I forget the word's proffered translation, something like the "Brother / Sisterhood of the Woodlands" or the "Dancing Flower Gods"


    The translation of Seldarine that I prefer is "We who have two names," as having two names is a requirement for membership. There are (typically evil) elven gods who do not have two names, but they are not members of the Seldarine. Some tales say that the race of elves came from the drops of blood shed by Corellon Larethian in his primordial battle with Gruumsh. A less well known tale is that the drow sprang into being from the disparate letters of Lolth's second name which was destroyed when she was cast out of the Seldarine.

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    Fri Jul 14, 2006 9:10 pm  

    Good gods!!! There are almost as many Seldarine as there are other gods of Greyhawk! They have a god for almost everything, except naval lint!

    (please oh please don't say I missed seeing the naval lint god on the list)

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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:10 am  

    Okay. Here is what I have now. Please review and make additions, subtractions etc. -

    “The elven pantheon is largely headquartered on one of the planes of Olympus, in an area known as Arvandor, ‘The High Forest.’ Here dwell a large number of elven deities, who collectively refer to themselves as the Seldarine, which roughly translates as ‘the fellowship of brothers and sisters of the wood.’” Thus, was the Seldarine introduced to D&D by Roger Moore in The Gods of the Elves in Dragon 60 in April, 1982. The Seldarine subsequently appeared in the 1st Edition Unearthed Arcana (1985), the Monster Mythology (1992) and in the Greyhawk campaign setting From the Ashes- Atlas of the Flanaess (p.96) in 1992.

    In 1994, the Planescape product, Planes of Chaos expanded the description of Arvandor
    and the Seldarine noting that - “The most important elves in Arvandor are the High Kings and Queens, rulers of entire races of elves.” Planes of Chaos, The Book of Chaos at p. 42. The list of High Kings and Queens includes:

    Labelas Thenorean - High King of the Grey Elves
    Marissa Snowplover - High Queen of the High Elves
    Almoander Shiverburn - High King of the Sylvan (Wood) Elves
    Salasindra of the Golden Kelp - High Queen of the Sea Elves
    Scarathor the Shadowking - High King of the Grugach (as last reported)
    See id. At pp. 42-43.

    Notable is the mention of the High King of the Grugach as the Grugach were a uniquely Greyhawk creation at the time. See Elf, Grugach, Monstrous Compendium, Greyhawk Adventures Appendix and compare with other Monstrous Compendium volumes.

    As part of Greyhawk 98, the “Seldarine elven deities” were noted as allies of Ehlonna. Greyhawk Players Guide at p. 21. In the Enchiridion of the Fiend-Sage in Vol. 2 (p.26) of short lived Living Greyhawk Journal, the Seldarine are noted as inappropriate for Valley Elves, in the context of the article further distinguishing Valley Elves from all other Greyhawk elves.

    It seems fairly certain then that the Seldarine are those elven deities worshiped by the elves of Greyhawk.

    Known Members of the Seldarine

    The Selderine include all of the following listed deities, with the exception of the Greyhawk drow deities, which are listed for completeness. Note that only elven deities (1) described with reference to Greyhawk or (2) described generally as members of the Selderine are included. Excluded are those elven deities specific to the Forgotten Realms. (But see notes to Mythrien Sarath, Sarula Iliene, Tilvenar/Darahl Firecloak and Alathrien Druanna after their descriptions - their references are mixed and fall within a “gray” area):

    Corellon Larethian (GG) - Creator, Magic, Arts, Crafts, War - ALN CG
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Aerdrie Faenya (IG) - Air, Weather, Avians - ALN CG
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Erevan Ilesere (IG) - Mischief, Change, Rogues - ALN CN
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Fenmarel Mestarine (LG) - Feral Elves, Scapegoats - ALN CG
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Hanali Celanil (IG) - Romantic Love, Beauty - ALN CG
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Labelas Enoreth (IG) - Time, Longevity - ALN CG
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Solonor Thelandria (IG) - Archery, Hunting - ALN CG
    (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Deep Sashelas (IG) - Sea Elves, Creation, Knowledge, Beauty, Magic - ALN CG (Monster Mythology and From the Ashes: Atlas of the Flanaess at p. 96)

    Rillifane Rallathil (IG) - Wood Elves, Woodlands, Nature - ALN CG
    (Rillifane Rallathil apprears in the 1st Ed. Deities and Demigods Cyclopedia as well as in Dragon 191 at p. 22)

    Alobal Lorfiril (DG) - Revelry, Hedonism, Mirth, Magic - ALN CG
    (Appears in Races of the Wild in the section on elven deities)

    Elebrin Liothiel (IG) - Nature, Gardens, Orchards, Harvest - ALN CG
    (Appears in Races of the Wild in the section on elven deities)

    Vandria Gilmadrith (IG) - Law, Protection, War - ALN LN
    (Appears in Races of the Wild in the section on elven deities)

    Sehanine Moonbow (IG) - Mysticism, Dreams, Death, Journeys, Transcendence, The Moon, Stars and Heavens - ALN CG
    (Appears in Races of the Wild in the section on elven deities)

    Araleth Letheranil (LG) - Light Starlight, Twilight - ALN CG
    (Elfin Gods, D155 p.20 & Seldarine Revisited D236 p.13)

    Tarsellis Meunniduin (IG/LG) - Mountains, Wilderness, Rivers, Snow Elves - ALN CN
    (In the Frost and Snow D155 p. 26 & Seldarine Revisited D236 p.16)

    Rellavar Danuvien (LG) - Protection from Elements (particularly cold), Frost Sprites - ALN NG
    (Seldarine Revisited D236 p. 16)

    Tethin Veralde (DG) - Swordsmanship - ALN NG
    (Seldarine Revisited D236 p. 17)

    Kirith Sotheril (LG) - Magic (especially divinations and enchantments) - ALN NG
    (Elfin Gods, D155 p.20 & Seldarine Revisited D236 p.14)

    Melira Taralen (LG) - Fine Arts, Half-elven Bards, Elven Minstrels, Songwriting - ALN CG
    (Elfin Gods, D155 p.20 & Seldarine Revisited D236 p.14)

    Naris Analor (LG) - Healing, Suffering, Easing of Pain, Death - ALN NG
    (Elfin Gods, D155 p.20 & Seldarine Revisited D236 p.15)

    Mythrien Sarath (DG) - Protection, Abjuration Magic - ALN CG
    (Magic of the Seldarine, D251 p. 28 NB - References to GH and FR are woefully co-mingled in this article and this deity must likely be considered problematic from a GH perspective)

    Sarula Iliene (LG) - Lakes, Streams, Nixies, Water Magic - ALN CG
    (Magic of the Seldarine, D251 p. 28 NB - References to GH and FR are woefully co-mingled in this article and this deity must likely be considered problematic from a GH perspective)

    Tilvenar/Darahl Firecloak - Earth and Fire Phenomena and Magic - ALN LN(G)
    (Magic of the Seldarine, D251 p. 28 NB - References to GH and FR are woefully co-mingled in this article and this deity must likely be considered problematic from a GH perspective)

    Alathrien Druanna (DG) - Conjurations, Rune Magic, Geometric Magic - ALN N(G)
    (Magic of the Seldarine, D251 p. 28 NB - References to GH and FR are woefully co-mingled in this article and this deity must likely be considered problematic from a GH perspective)

    Lolth (IG) - Spiders, Evil, Darkness - ALN CE
    (Lolth appears in the Monster Mythology and in Races of the Wild. Her mythology is developed in the 1st Ed. Fiend Folio (as a demon), in Dragon 155 as Megwandir a fallen elven deity, in Monster Mythology as a god and in Races of the Wild as Corellon Larethian’s fallen consort)

    Kiraransalee(i) (DG) - Undead, Vengence, Slavery - ALN CE
    (Appears in variant forms in Monster Mythology and The Vault of the Drow in Dragon 298 at p. 86)

    Vhaerun (LG) - Thievery, Territory - ALN NE
    (Appears in variant forms in Monster Mythology and The Vault of the Drow in Dragon 298 at p. 86)

    Zinzerina (DG) - Scheming, Rebellion, Chaos, Deception, Humiliation, Ambush, Assassination - ALN CN
    (Appears in variant forms in Monster Mythology and The Vault of the Drow in Dragon 298 at p. 86)

    Keptolo (DG) - Flattery, Intoxication, Rumor, Opportunism - ALN CE
    (The Vault of the Drow, D298 at p. 86)

    Thanks to Ripper and MTG for adding to this list! Anyone else?
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:51 am  

    hahah - that's a ludicrous amount of deities...as if Greyhawk needs anymore Happy

    I got the impression from the earliest references of Lolth (that I'm aware of) - in Temple of Elemental Evil and Queen of SPiders Lolth is a demon as opposed to an actual deity and for that reason it seems unlikely she would ever have been Corellon's consort anyways? I also got the impression that the drow were elves that made a pact with this demon-queen for whatever reasons and when discovered it resulted in their exile.

    Also Ehlonna is the only deity in the original lists to have been given a specific elven name (Ehlenestra) and is a goddess of elves and half-elves...I wonder if this is argument enough for her to be placed in the Seldarine should you choose to use them?

    I personally have opted to replace the Seldarine with existing Greyhawk deities that were described as having an origin of Common or Unknown in the earlier material.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:59 am  

    Oh! And you forgot Ye'Cind (who would have to replace Melira Taralen on Oerth). Might as well put Ehlonna in there too.

    Personally, I'd replace Tarsellis Meunniduin with Fenmarel Mestarine, as the latter god's portfolio of elven outcastes and scapegoats would naturally include snow elves. Fenmarel was given Tarsellis' myth in On Hallowed Ground, so that he was the elf who became the lover of Lolth/Megwandir and was betrayed by her. That makes Fenmarel more interesting and helps pare down the pantheon a bit.

    There is one god I would add to the list - Shevarash the Black Archer, a demipower of "hatred of the drow, vengeance, millitary crusades, loss, and revenge." He's only noted in FR materials (and in Weapons of Legacy, which might genericize him enough for GVDammerung's tastes) but he fits so well that I think it'd be a shame to leave him out. He could be one of the demigods imprisoned beneath Castle Greyhawk.

    Quote:
    Corellon Larethian (GG) - Creator, Magic, Arts, Crafts, War - ALN CG *1
    Aerdrie Faenya (IG) - Air, Weather, Avians - ALN CG *1
    Ehlenestra (Ehlonna) (IG) - Forests, Woodlands, Flora, Fauna, Fertility, Half-elves - ALN NG
    Erevan Ilesere (IG) - Mischief, Change, Rogues - ALN CN *1
    Fenmarel Mestarine (LG) - Feral Elves, Scapegoats, Snow Elves - ALN CG *1
    Hanali Celanil (IG) - Romantic Love, Beauty - ALN CG *1
    Labelas Enoreth (IG) - Time, Longevity - ALN CG *1
    Solonor Thelandria (IG) - Archery, Hunting - ALN CG *1
    Deep Sashelas (IG) - Sea Elves, Creation, Knowledge, Beauty, Magic - ALN CG *1

    Rillifane Rallathil (IG) - Wood Elves, Woodlands, Nature - ALN CG *2

    Alobal Lorfiril (DG) - Revelry, Hedonism, Mirth, Magic - ALN CG *3
    Elebrin Liothiel (IG) - Nature, Gardens, Orchards, Harvest - ALN CG *3
    Vandria Gilmadrith (IG) - Law, Protection, War - ALN LN *3
    Sehanine Moonbow (IG) - Mysticism, Dreams, Death, Journeys, Transcendence, The Moon, Stars and Heavens - ALN CG *3

    Araleth Letheranil (LG) - Light, Starlight, Twilight - ALN CG *4
    Alathrien Druanna (DG) - Conjuration magic, runecasting - ALN NG
    Darahl Firecloak (DG) - Earth, flame, and related magic, new beginnings, rock elves - ALN N
    Kirith Sotheril (LG) - Divinations, enchantments - ALN NG *4
    Naris Analor (LG) - Healing, the Easing of Pain, Death - ALN NG *4
    Tethrin Veraldé (DG) - Aasimaar, bladesingers, elves, fighter/wizards, duskblades, paladins - ALN NG
    Ye'Cind (DG) - Bards, Music, Magical Songs, Spellsingers - ALN CG

    Lolth (IG) - Spiders, Evil, Darkness - ALN CE *6

    Kiraransalee(i) (DG) - Undead, Vengence, Slavery - ALN CE *7
    Vhaerun (LG) - Thievery, Territory - ALN NE *7
    Zinzerina (DG) - Scheming, Rebellion, Chaos, Deception, Humiliation, Ambush, Assassination - ALN CN *7

    Keptolo (DG) - Flattery, Intoxication, Rumor, Opportunism - ALN CE *8


    I cut out Rellavar Danuvien and Sarula Iliene because they're really gods of frost sprites and nixies, respectively. I also cut out Mythrien Sarath because he's mostly god of mythals, which don't exist outside the Forgotten Realms setting. As above, I replaced Melira Taralen, goddess of bards, with Ye'Cind. Ye'Cind can take her place as Hanali Celanil's child as well.

    The drow deities can stand as they are, though I personally wouldn't use Vhaeraun in Greyhawk. Not when Graz'zt works better for the same purpose.
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:26 am  

    Kirt wrote:
    The translation of Seldarine that I prefer is "We who have two names," as having two names is a requirement for membership.


    Cool! Xan Yae and Wee Jas can join!
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:53 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    hahah - that's a ludicrous amount of deities...as if Greyhawk needs anymore Happy


    I actually like that the pantheon is large, almost unmanagable. It fits with the chaotic nature of the elves. While all of them would know of Corralon, the known membership of the Seldarine would vary from tribe to tribe.

    As opposed to humans or dwarves, who say by definition "these are the Gods that ARE", elves would say, "these are the gods we know of" or "these are the patron powers who have manifested to us".

    Most worship would be focussed on an unspecified Seldarine, with prayers to specific dieties in specific situations. Perhaps an analogy would be a more exagerated pagan version of the Catholic Church - there is the Father (Corralon) who is also the Mother (a duality, in place of a trinity). All other powers are like saints - propritiated when appropriate, but too many for the general layperson to keep track of.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 9:30 am  

    mtg wrote:
    IIRC, the notion of the Seldarine, as originally articulated by Roger E. Moore ("REM"), indicated that it was a potentially large fellowship. I forget the word's proffered translation, something like the "Brother / Sisterhood of the Woodlands" or the "Dancing Flower Gods" or (insert joke here).

    For me then, the notion of the Seldarine suggests that different bands of olves may (not) honor / worship different members of their "pantheon."


    That's what Unearthed Arcana says:

    Quote:
    The elven pantheon is primarily located on one of the planes of Olympus, in an area known as Arvandor, “The High Forest.” Here dwell a large number of elven deities, who collectively refer to themselves as the Seldarine, which roughly translates as “the fellowship of brothers and sisters of the wood.” The title also implies a wide diversity in capabilities and areas of interests, linked together by a desire for cooperation. Though many of the beings’ areas of influence overlap to some degree, there is no conflict between, them. Of all the Seldarine, only Corellon Larethian is a greater god.

    The numerous other members of the Seldarine are gifted with varying degrees of control over the spheres of elvenkind, nature, magic, dancing and play, love, beauty, time, celestial phenomena, running water, weapon skills, craftsmanship, secrecy, comedy and joy, chaos, and mischief, among others. Few if any represent law, underground phenomena, violence without cause, warfare, and non-mammalian or non-avian life forms. One or two are concerned with death and dying, but they are peaceful, good-aligned deities and not the dark and evil types that pervade human pantheons. Elven pantheons will vary widely from place to place, as different members of the Seldarine achieve local prominence or fade from memory.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 1:34 pm  

    Props to GVD for the tract on olven religion and additional research and Kirt for the great joke!

    If one uses the Seldarine, I think Ehlenestra is clearly in the fellowship (unless she's been excluded for only having one name). If one rejects the basic notion of the Seldarine, perhaps Corellon and Ehlenestra are adequate, maybe with Sehanine in there too?

    IMCs, I prefer olves to be relatively rare and well "educated / skilled" -- contingent on their culture. In the case of religion / philosophy, most olves would know the songs and stories that depict their cosmogony, i.e., their gods' eternal dance. One who didn't would be considered profoundly uneducated / stupid -- in that century of childhood, you better be able to learn some songs! -- and probably have been orphaned from olven society and raised in ignorance. (This more can also explain some of the distaste that some olves, perhaps especially faeries, feel or express about half-elves.)

    So most olves should know the names of the Seldarine along with their gnostic associations. Unfortunately this seems difficult to reflect in D&D rules -- maybe it's Knowledge (Local) or (Religion). Or maybe olves have a preferred class of Bard, IMC. I don't know. Relatively few folks have played olves in my recent campaigns. Allan Grohe was doing great with a court bard of Celene, (a faerie grey olve). Another player in that campaign had an olve but I tended to think of her instead as a half-elf (raised as an urchin in Elredd).

    MTG
    PS - Just like I disliked Pazrael biting Pazuzu's name, I say Fenmarel Mestarine is a punk. I liked most of Sargent's works, but replacing Tarsellis Meunniduin is just wrong! And On Hallowed Ground furthered this mischief?

    "Don't believe the hype!" ;)
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:52 am  

    I think the demi-humans of the Flanaess have been given short (pardon the pun) shrift and, in the process, a potentially valuable setting resource has been left largely fallow. The Seldarine, IMO, emphasize that potential. This is as diverse and interesting a group of deities as one will find among the Oeridians or Suel. If GH has untapped areas for development, IMO the demi-humans and most especially Celene are rip for seeing more action.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:47 am  

    I think the noniz are the true diamonds in the rough of the Flanaess, especially the environs of Celene.

    For me, they epitomize secrets of Greyhawk, especially the Hateful Wars although I know that the LGG authors depict the olves having controlled that conflict and other fans focus on the dwur.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:17 am  

    mtg wrote:
    I think the noniz are the true diamonds in the rough of the Flanaess, especially the environs of Celene.

    For me, they epitomize secrets of Greyhawk, especially the Hateful Wars although I know that the LGG authors depict the olves having controlled that conflict and other fans focus on the dwur.


    No real argument. Their lack of a dedicated state would be my thought as to why Celene and the elves come more immediately to mind.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:12 pm  

    Exactly, the noniz are one of those subtle elements that function like glue -- keeping the whole together but not visibly.

    Note, I think there should be no rock or wood gnomes on Oerth. There should only be noniz!
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 1:55 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Note, I think there should be no rock or wood gnomes on Oerth. There should only be noniz!


    Agreed. I think wood gnomes are kind of annoying, myself.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 4:45 pm  

    I always feel that there is no real need for wood and rock gnomes because the noniz / rock gnomes are pretty sylvan already. I don't few them as the techno-gnomes that they seem to be portrayed as in many settings. Instead the technology they use is more natural...cogs and watermills and da Vinci style things. They generally have a feeling of being well integrated with nature...anyways - that's off topic...

    I have seen mentioned before that the rulers of Celene participate in the Faerie Mysteries...I like this idea - it fits in with my vision of the olves of Greyhawk being more like the faerie hosts of medieval folklore...all hey nonny-no and mysterious cavalcades and hunts through the woods...actually quite like the sylvan elves of Mirkwood and the elves of Rivendell. Anyways - back to the Faerie Mysteries...could it be possible to see all these numerous Seldarine deities as simply elevated fey beings? Fairy lore is full of many different faeries all with special names and purposes. I'd have less of a problem with a host of old and established faeries teaching the olves ancient lore to perform their Mysteries than lots of deities. If most of the Seldarine were fey then that would explain the lack of clerics of each type as they cant actually grant spells (maybe a few powerful ones could) instead they grant something just as valuable...knowledge. The olves still have their actual deities too but these are not so numerous...in my settings it would be Ehlenestra, Lirr and Myrhiss, Olidamarra and a couple others...but alternatively it could be the main Seldarine such as Sehanine, Aerdrie, Hanali etc...
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:41 pm  

    IMC, the elves' Faerie Mysteries are central to understanding them. The different subraces result from differing degrees of devaluation of the Mysteries amongst them. Gray Elves are the closest to the 'pure' form with high elves more distant, wood elves even farther, and valley elves and drow completely outside of them.

    My elves are not a mortal race per se. They do live and die, sort of. Their base lifespan is that given in the 3e PHB. However, the practice of the mysteries brings them closer and closer to the nature of faerie through increasing degrees of initiation. These initiations extend the lives of the elf who attains them (to the 1e DMG levels, potentially) and, ultimately, the elf becomes a true fae rather than dying. Elves that die without attaining that degree of enlightenment are reborn as elves and continue again. Incidentally, elves can only be brought back to life in their current incarnation for a short period of time after their 'death'. Ressurrection of a long dead elf fails as the elf has either become a faerie or been reborn already.

    So, a Seldarine of 'enlightened elves' who are faerie lords, not gods, would work for me. Though I haven't actually used that formulation.
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:33 am  

    I really like your thoughts about the spiritual evolution of the olves, Vormaerin. The relationships between the fey, the olves, and others (like the leShay and Eladrin) interest me greatly.

    Wolfling wrote:
    I like this idea - it fits in with my vision of the olves of Greyhawk being more like the faerie hosts of medieval folklore...all hey nonny-no and mysterious cavalcades and hunts through the woods...actually quite like the sylvan elves of Mirkwood and the elves of Rivendell. Anyways - back to the Faerie Mysteries...could it be possible to see all these numerous Seldarine deities as simply elevated fey beings?


    In D&D, elves seem related to the fey but are a different order of being. 3xE codified this as being of the Humanoid, not Fey, type, but 2e suggested the same via the different gods ascribed to elves and faeries, and 1e implied it by making elves a playable race and not pixies, sylphs, etc.

    For me, discussing the Seldarine seems especially interesting because it helps me think about how to relate them and their olven children to the fey both on Oerth and elsewhere, e.g., Elysium, the Happy Hunting Grounds (now called the Beastlands), Arvandor (Olympus, now called Arborea), and Ysgard.

    I want to understand their relationships both for designing interesting campaigns and for immediate play use in my current campaign. Generally I want to know what olves are taught about their relationships to the fey. Something like:

    "We are distant cousins, but they are wild -- less predictable than a human, and more dangerous. Their ways are different than our own. They may befriend you, but beware of their friendship lest is pull you from your own path."

    But this is too general and says nothing about "the truth" of their relationships. Hmm, I need to think about this more...
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:43 am  

    mtg wrote:
    I really like your thoughts about the spiritual evolution of the olves, Vormaerin. The relationships between the fey, the olves, and others (like the leShay and Eladrin) interest me greatly.


    Agreed. And following up on the mention of the Eladrin. I know the Seldarine are supposed to be served by the aasimar but eladrins have always seemed to me to be better in the role of elven "angels." The queen of the Eladrins is, of course, Morwel - The Faerie Queen. I think a relation between the eladrin and the Seldarine (chuck the assimars) would be a natural. Smile
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:46 pm  

    Any similarities between eladrins and elves is superficial. Eladrins are no more elves than devils are gargoyles.

    I greatly dislike any attempts to link elves and eladrins, as it exacerbates what I think is a serious flaw in the eladrin design - their overly elfy appearance. Linking beings who are supposed to personify the chaotic good alignment with a single race or group of races seriously demeans and limits the chaotic good alignment as a whole and every non-elven or faerie character. I think it was a serious failure of imagination when the best they could come up for the good equivalent of demons was a bunch of Midsummer's Night Dream rejects.

    Eladrins can be salvaged, but only by deemphasizing their elfish/fey appearance and emphasizing how they're mercurial, shapeshifting beings made of equal parts passion and zealotry for free will. Each is a unique being, self-evolved - they have an infinite variety of mutations and transfigurations. They appear in many forms. They are freedom-fighters so committed to their cause they refuse to appear in their true forms among mortals for fear they might inadvertantly bias someone's right of choice.

    Think "Oberon and Titania" and you've ruined them. Let them get too close to the Seldarine and you've wasted them. A much better model would be the gandharvas and apsaras of Hindu myth, heavenly shapeshifters associated with nature, known for using trickery and seduction to tempt sages away from Law, but fond of giving pleasure to the deserving. Corellon Larethian can be satisfied with a pointy-eared monadic deva. There's no reason eladrins should have pointy ears at all.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:11 pm  

    Hey Rip, thanks for elaborating your critique. If you have the time, please share a bit more on the publication origins / lineage of the eladrin.

    I first read about them in the 3xE Monster Manual and Book of Exalted Deeds. Were they first introduced in 2e Planescape products?

    For me, the whole notion of an Angel subtype, while potentially cool, is a bit abrupt (simplistic) of a change from 1e's three kinds of devas. IMO, the apparent symmetry achieved by creating Good Outer Planar "races" to mimic the devils, daemons, demodands, and demons seemed contrived and unnecessary.

    However, I'm ignorant of Planescape. Did it develop the notions of archons, angels, eladrins, etc. If so were these fairly interesting ideas?
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:54 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Were they first introduced in 2e Planescape products?


    Yes, they first appeared in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, which was introduced a few years into the Planescape line (meaning that Planes of Chaos, which detailed Olympus/Arvandor/Arborea, was published before they existed).

    Quote:
    For me, the whole notion of an Angel subtype, while potentially cool, is a bit abrupt (simplistic) of a change from 1e's three kinds of devas.


    The 1st edition Manual of the Planes introduced archons, who were intended to be to the Seven Heavens as devils were to the Nine Hells. This first introduced the problem of assymetry - were there similar beings for Elysium and Olympus?

    The 2nd edition Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix was the first text to classify devas, solars, planetars, and similar creatures as "aasimon," defining them as specifically the servants of the gods of good. Archons also appeared in that text seperately as the natives of the Seven Heavens.

    The Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I was largely a revised version of the Monstrous Compendium Outer Planes Appendix, and it took the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix II to solve the mystery of the chief representatives of Elysium, the Outlands, and Arborea. The problem can be framed this way: if aasimon (called angels in D&D 3.5) are servants of the gods and tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, slaadi, modrons, and archons are personifications of the various alignments - what about Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, and true Neutral? Do they have personifications too?

    Enter the eladrins, guardinals, and rilmani. Of these, I like the rilmani (humanoids of various metallic aspects) the best - I think they're well presented, flexible, and they do all aspects of their alignment justice.

    Guardinals and eladrins were a little weak. Guardinals were hamstrung by all being animal-human hybrids, which distracts a bit from the idea that these are supposed to be incarnations of Good undistracted by Chaos or Law. It's too easy to keep inventing new ones out of other kinds of animals, forgetting the alignment comes first and the "manimal" thing comes second.

    Eladrins are hamstrung by their elf/faerie vibe. People look at them and think, "Classical faeries for D&D!" or "Celestial ancestors of the elves!
    instead of "Chaotic Good made flesh."

    That's not to say I dislike either race - both guardinals and eladrins have a lot of potential and can be very cool if used as symbolically auspicious forms taken by the various alignments. With guardinals, the key is that they have nothing at all to do with the animals they superficially resemble - leonals aren't big lions in the heavens (any more than glabrezu are big dogs in the Abyss); they're noble celestial beings who have adopted leonine shapes because of what the lion represents to mortals.

    I think it's important that each alignment does get an outer planar exemplar for reasons Gygax noted in the 1st edition Deities & Demigods - with alignment so important to the game, outer planar exemplars help define it and personify its conflicts. Although Gygax was talking about deities, celestials and their paragons work better for that purpose, as deities are often too compromised by their portfolios to be true exemplars of their alignments.

    Reducing the whole spectrum of good to a single race (angels) does the Law-Chaos axis a great disservice, particularly when the infernal races are blessed with such variety.

    Aasimon, or angels, are not incarnations of the good alignment the way guardinals, archons, and eladrins are. They're not good equivalents of demons and devils. They're servitors created by the gods for various purposes and they're no more good than the gods they serve - which is often not so good, in cases like St. Cuthbert or Pholtus, or even in cases like Trithereon, who cares more about liberty than mercy.

    Quote:
    Did it develop the notions of archons, angels, eladrins, etc.


    Archons were treated well in Planes of Law. Guardinals and eladrins appeared fairly late in the game and were never given the detail their fiendish equivalents got, as key designers left the company or didn't follow to WotC. Then they were completely destroyed as interesting characters by the excreble Warriors of Heaven, a book which I hope is entirely forgotten as soon as possible.

    There's been some fascinating fan-work on them, though little is online at present. Here's a few links to things I wrote a while back:

    Guardinals
    Eladrins
    Eladrins
    Eladrins
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 7:23 pm  

    Hmmm . . .
    My views are somewhat close to Rasgon's I think.

    I do agree the guardinals are too easily lost in the manimal thing, and I particularly cite the manimal nature of many archons to go with it. Especially the Ursinal and the bear archon, they are so close as to do severe damage to the unique nature of each.

    For the eladrin, I suppose I like the quasi-elven nature a bit more than Rasgon, but that is likely tied to how much I despise the Seldarine. Eladrins give me a nice replacement for that. And indeed, that shows just how overwhelming that can be, as he noted.

    I differ on the rilmani. I felt they were never really developed, and the limited range possible with metals puts a strong limit on where the race can be taken. They could be better, but I'm not sure how much.

    My main complaint with aasimon angels is that they were regularly pushed towards being primarily Lawful Good, as indeed all Good was regularly pushed towards a thoroughly castrated Lawful Good aspect that continues to this day. Even comments about Good fighting Good were redacted and retconned as time passed, until only Evil could possibly fight, and Lawful Good and Chaotic Good deities only waggled their fingers at each other on rare occasion, and only corrupt followers would dare go to open war.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:02 pm  

    Samwise wrote:
    I do agree the guardinals are too easily lost in the manimal thing, and I particularly cite the manimal nature of many archons to go with it. Especially the Ursinal and the bear archon, they are so close as to do severe damage to the unique nature of each.


    Really, most of the guardinals have an archon equivalent, at least as the archons were originally conceived. Paralleling the leonals are the cat-headed sword archons, paralleling the lupinals are the dog-headed hound archons, paralleling the avorals are the bird-headed tome archons, and of course there's the ursinals and their warden archon counterparts. The only original guardinals to not have a direct archon equivalent are the horned cervidals, unless they're somehow parallel to lantern archons.

    I do have a theory that takes advantage of that to some extent - that originally, before cosmic Good and Evil had blended with Law and Chaos and the Outer Planes were in a different shape, the guardinals were the only kinds of celestial beings, the sole exemplars of Good. Then, as the forces of Evil willfully infected themselves with Law and Chaos as part of their plan to expand their numbers, the forces of Good responded by sending volunteers into the realm of primal Law to transform themselves into new shapes - the archons, who look basically the same, but in most cases more humanoid and domestic as befits their lawful natures. The new species rearranged itself as time went by and they found the proclivities of their various castes were suited to different positions in their new lawful hierarchy, new castes were created and older ones were further refined, but they still resemble the guardinals because of their common origin.

    I also made parallels between guardinal castes and the various eladrins, but those are less obvious - Chaos, being the force of transformation, changed them much more radically.
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