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    Canonfire :: View topic - Under the Microscope: Mayaheine
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    Under the Microscope: Mayaheine
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    Forum Moderator

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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 3:34 pm  
    Under the Microscope: Mayaheine

    Mayaheine is featured in a sidebar in the latest Dragon Magazine (346) article on Pelor by Sean K Reynolds. Mayaheine being a newer addition to the GH mythos is intriguing to me because I have this feeling of great potential for her in the future. In this topic I will scrutinize and elaborate on facts and inferences I have scrounged, so it is not by any means exhaustive. My two main additional sources are Gary Holian's Paladins of Greyhawk article (Dragon 306) and the LGG.

    Mayaheine (The Sheild Maiden) LG demigod of Protection, Justice and Valor

    Mayaheine is a recently ascended paladin of Pelor, brought here from another world to help fight the powers of darkness and evil. -LGG

    A paladin ascending to godhood is not surprising in the varied mythos of Oerth nor is the fact she is from another world. What stands out as striking to me is why she was chosen over and above all Pelor's indigenous paladins (known as Crusaders) during the Greyhawk Wars against primarily Iuz. I will come back to that.

    She is portrayed as a strikingly tall woman with blue eyes and auburn gold hair, dressed for battle. -LGG

    Given that Mayaheine is human and that she hails from an alternate world that also worships Pelor in some part, from her description she does not figure to appear similar to Flan or Baklunish, leaning more towards Oeridian or Suel in traits. Pelor is by origin a Flan god on Oerth despite his present day acceptance among the Flanaess' races. Nothing concrete can be said from this fact except maybe an inference that Mayaheine might be typical of her world's human race and that they in all likelihood are its major Pelor worshipers.

    According to the doctrine of the faith, Mayaheine was once a mortal paladin of Pelor, a fact which drew many Pelorian paladins to her service upon her arrival on Oerth. While most of her paladins emerged from the ranks of existing Pelorian knighthoods, Mayaheine's fame grows stronger with each year. Her tolerant doctrine espouses equality between men and women; as many as three in five of her holy warriors are female. -Drg 306
    ------
    Almor nevertheless boasted the largest plurality of Pelorian faithful in the Flanaess until the Greyhawk Wars brought that land low. As a reprieve, Pelor sent his servant Mayaheine to carry on the fight along with existing figures such as the legendary St. Bane, thought to be the greatest undead hunter in the history of the Flanaess. -Drg 306


    Back to the first point, why was Mayaheine, a female, chosen over all Pelor's faithful including the legendary St. Bane? I assume the hierarchy of Pelor for who knows how long was enjoying a strong bias toward males in its ranks as evidenced by the shift towards Mayaheine by many long time female Pelorians. Furthermore the gender bias is broken in that the Shield Maiden both advocates self-defense and 'protecting the home' and at the same time acts as a traveling, adjucating, militant wing of a much larger Pelorian faith. The fact of her otherworldliness has also softened the choice of a female over someone like St. Bane in the eyes of Pelorians.

    *Next posting I will go into her current state of godhood and ramifications of that apotheosis then possibly some wild speculation about her home world.
    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:52 pm  
    Re: Under the Microscope: Mayaheine

    In my efforts to explain why Dahlver-Nar was such a legendary cleric, I had him travel to other worlds, spreading the faith of Pelor to alien shores. My intent was that Mayaheine was from one of the worlds that Dahlver-Nar had "seeded" with Pelor's faith.

    As for why Mayaheine was chosen for apotheosis and not St. Bane, I imagine it was a matter of cosmic balance. Mayaheine's world was a place where Good was on the ascent, while Oerth was at the time a place where Evil was on the ascent; the Powers That Be agreed that one of the surplus champions of the good world should be transferred to the evil world to balance the multiversal scale. With the transfer of such a powerful champion, both world tipped back toward neutrality. So it wasn't just a matter of Oerth gaining a goodly demigod, but a matter of another world losing a great hero; raising St. Bane to full divinity wouldn't have accomplished both goals, and so the other gods wouldn't have agreed to it. Of course, St. Bane could have been granted a divine rank while Mayaheine was transferred over as a mortal, but that hardly seems fair payment for taking away everything she's ever known. They could have simply killed Mayaheine as "payment" for Bane's apotheosis, but Pelor doesn't play that way (and the benefit to Oerth wouldn't have been nearly as great, with only one more powerful existing champion instead of two champions).
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:36 pm  

    Why was Mayaheine was chosen over other more obvious choices? Because the author wanted to. Many reasons are given as to why Pelor sponsored Mayaheine(who amounts to a proxy), the main one involving Pelor giving up direct intercession in the affairs of mortals as part of a larger deal among the gods. Regardless of why a new and unrelated figure was chosen from another world for this position, it is up to everybody else to explain it away.

    I'm personally not too keen on Mayaheine as she has little to do with what Pelor stands for, what the Flan gods in general stand for, and she is a quite horrible dancer, stepping on the toes of Heironeous no matter how she moves. Considering the nature aspect that all Flan gods have, Mayaheine is a huge departure with regard to what type of individual a Flan god would sponsor, and to what portfolio. Mayaheine is not much more than an Amazon Heironeous. I'd rather have Mayaheine either disappear altogether or be worked up in such a way as to actually give her a unique and individual persona and portfolio all her own; something more suitable to the Flan pantheon. Flan can have a warrior deity, but it shouldn’t be some pale imitation of some other deity. It doesn’t really matter that Mayaheine may be considered a common deity; her divinity was sponsored by a Flan deity. The Flan invariably receive short shrift though, so it is no surprise to me that there is no hint of Flan flavor whatsoever in any aspect of Mayaheine. Mayaheine just comes off to me as a gimmick deity. I use her sparingly, but would really like to see Mayaheine develop some unique characteristics of her own put forth in a more indepth article on her.
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    GreySage

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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 8:46 pm  

    I'm all for giving Mayaheine more unique flavor, but I think of Pelor as being more transcendent, beyond any one culture. The ancient Flan saw him in a distinctively Flan way, but they're mostly dead now and Pelor is worshipped by a large number of different cultures; each of those cultures interpret him according to their own customs, traditions, and mores. Mayaheine's world is no different. She's a product of her own culture, which views Pelor in a certain way, and the Flan influence will be faint.

    That's not to say you don't have a point - Mayaheine is rather generic in tone, and could use some tarting up.
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 10:19 pm  

    Good responses. For the time being we are stuck with Mayaheine or maybe she is a fad deity and will go away once the scales tip in favor of Good. You'll see what I mean. So onward!

    Mayaheine's clergy asserts that the Shield Maiden herself inhabits the Flanaess, though she has not been witnessed by anyone other than the faithful since the close of the Greyhawk Wars. If she does have an Oerthly stronghold, it has never been found. -Drg 306

    So what we have now is an appearance by Mayaheine at some time during the GH Wars then her subsequent fading into seclusion after its wane yet at the same time her religion took off. None but the faithful (read VIPs) have seen her manifest. She does not have a stronghold on Oerth as Iuz might, but then again many demigods and hero-deities have unlisted addresses as it were. Or perhaps where she is in body most of the time is on her original home world...

    Mayaheine's world was a place where Good was on the ascent, while Oerth was at the time a place where Evil was on the ascent; the Powers That Be agreed that one of the surplus champions of the good world should be transferred to the evil world to balance the multiversal scale. With the transfer of such a powerful champion, both world tipped back toward neutrality. -rasgon

    I like Rasgon's idea of Dahlver-Nar spreading the faith to other worlds like Mayaheine's as it conveniently moves this along. I see Mayaheine's world as at the same tech level as Oerth given her armament, indeed it may be one of many alternate Oerths. I postulate a slight change in Rasgon's balancing idea. Her sudden appearance and subsequent sudden scarcity is unusual especially since she enjoys growing popularity despite it. It could be that her world might not be all that Balanced or even leaning in favor of Good after all. If we imagine for instance that she is allowed to use her old world as her deific home plane she could then be the Good version of Iuz there, controlling a temporal realm or stronghold to prevent Evil's rise again while at the same time answering the occasional prayers of those most faithful of Oerth. Whatever the case, with the preponderance of ascended mortals on Oerth it should be assumed Mayaheine's world has at the most an equal potential for such apotheosis. Her return home as an elevated paladin demigod then would be acceptable and perhaps on this unnamed world where there is no Heironeous she would not be so redundant.

    A side idea of mine is that she was 'rescued' from her home world by Pelor before it was destroyed. Her loyalty and such was her saving grace. This idea is good in that she has no need to worry about how her old world fares. Maybe her home world is the same place of Gord fame that Tharizdun snuffs out?

    Then again her scarcity may just be your general deific distancing from mortals, walking among them in disguise and such. That is the simplest explaination. Now on to my heresy...

    This faith sponsors many paladins and is friendly with paladins of other faiths as well. They are always respectful of clerics of Pelor, for their religion wouldn't exist on Oerth if it weren't for him. -LGG

    Instead her religion is head-quartered around the Nyr Dyv, with its largest chapter and training house in Hardby. -Drg306

    Curiously Mayaheine's biggest concentration of worshipers is in the same area as alot of Oerid born Heironeans so that would explain her appearance as a non-Flan. You have to appeal to the people you are patron of. Cebrion's assertion of her being hopelessly redundant in this hot bed of Good gods like Heironeous, Cuthbert, etc. is true. Thus her only unique reason is to give females a figure, a symbol of good to follow in an otherwise male dominant society. This is blatantly aided by the fact her biggest support is in Hardby, a gynarchy. But what if Mayaheine was just a clever ruse by the gods of Good to drum up support against Iuz? A fabricated deity who is there at the worst of times then is faded back into obscurity once her religion is established. It could easily be maintained by the combined efforts of Pelor, Heironeous and whoever, similar to demon worshipping clerics in truth receiving spells from like-aligned deities. Why a false deity? First it explains why an otherworldly paladin was was chosen over locals, second it explains her sudden scarcity after the Wars, third it explains her portfolio overlap with longer established yet allied gods, fourth it allows select 'Pelorians' to act more martial and not technically leave the circle of faith.

    Real deity or not, Mayaheine is on the rise in the Flanaess, a distinction that should be noted. While her religion is still young, less than ten years old, in time she may just yet supplant those she crosses over with. Her gender-equality is a strong draw from Pelor right now but how long before she siphons from Heironeous or Cuthbert as well?
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:44 pm  

    IMC to give Mayaheine a slightly more unique aspect I made her a bit like an Athene of the Flanaess. Justice and Valor are not really in her domain (they are simply qualities that she and her followers aspire to). Instead she is the goddess of defensive warfare and strategy, wisdom, protection and guardians.

    Whilst many knights and crusaders will worship Hieroneous or one of the other good martial gods Mayaheine is the goddess that those soldiers charged with guarding camp or a fortress will pray to. She is not a frontline of battle goddess (although she is not afraid to be in such a place) but the defender of the land. As a protector and defender a female seems more suitable. In campaign and battle her priests oversee the building of fortifications, setting up camp, picking good locations for a defensive stand. They help plan the strategies of war and when the Hieroneons charge off to battle her priests and knights and paladins stay behind keeping camp safe and tending to the sick and injured who are brought back. Hieroneous is also the god of glory - Mayaheine is not interested in glory - that is foolish male pride that clouds the mind and does not allow for wise combat strategy. For this reason she has also become popular with older paladins and warriors...those who in their more mature years see the sense of Mayaheine's ethos. Many are perhaps crippled from their campaign days and can no longer attain the glory Hieroneous holds dear but Mayaheine gives them a chance to use their years of experience for use - they can feel needed and useful again rather than dwelling on past accomplishments. SO the church of Mayaheine is an interesting mix of females and mature war veterans.

    This aspect of warfare has encouraged many female warriors to arrise and that is perhaps why Pelor chose a female deity. The war gods are strong headed and macho and many women perhaps see them simply as mens gods for mens silly games. Mayaheine is a strong martial deity who is also wise and level headed - an aspect women can relate to. SO over the last 10 years of Mayaheine's faith Pelor has managed to bolster the forces of good from the untapped fighting strength of the womenfolk.

    As a side note I have given her the domains of Good, Planning, Protection and War
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    Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:49 pm  

    oh and one last point - her worship has become popular in Sterich. Introduced by veterans from sent from the SHeldomar to aid in the fight against Iuz who had returned home. Mayaheine's wisdom and strategy have proved invaluable against fighting giants. Her tactics had helped reduce casualties against the giants making her popular amongst the soldiers there. The traditional styles of warfare would have resulted in great losses.

    I'm not sure how the timing between the arrival of Mayaheine and the giant incursions in Geoff and Sterich fit but I wanted Mayaheine to be worshipped in Sterich iMC which is set in 586CY.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:47 am  

    Though Mayaheine does smack a bit of PC D&D, Wolfling brings up one version of the type of interpretation I was talking about. I like your means of fitting her into Sterich as well. It also makes complete sense to me that the gynarchy of Hardby would readily accept Mayaheine's folowers as a martial group to team up with/bolster their mages. Wonder twin powers...activate!
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:31 am  

    Mayaheine got the job because she was the purest of the pure, the best of the best. At least that's how I think of it.

    Not sure about the Tharizdun snuffed world thing. The point of big T is that if he gets out anywhere, he gets out everywhere, destroying the Prime and very likely the supreme order of the Great Wheel.

    I'd agree with the sentiments above about distinguishing between Heironeous and Mayaheine. Heironeous is a god of offence, whereas M. is a god of defence - to put it crudely. Neil Stephenson has a good riff in Cryptonomicon about the differences between Ares and Athena.

    The thing that interests me about Mayaheine is her effect on the Balance and the game of tit-for-tat between the gods. If Pelor can introduce a new god to the Oerth just like that (he also had a hand in the creation of Philidor), then what do the evil gods get by way of counterveiling force? Pelor clearly sees that the Wars were the beginning of a great threat to the side of good on the Oerth (this is in keeping with the Sargentian idea of a coming Great War to end all wars).

    Also - would her and Philidor's appearance on the good/law side of the equation have pushed Mordenkainen to support the side of chaos/evil to maintain the Balance? Might this be a rationale (at least in part) for Rary's Empire of the Bright Desert?

    P.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 6:37 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Why was Mayaheine was chosen over other more obvious choices? Because the author wanted to. Many reasons are given as to why Pelor sponsored Mayaheine(who amounts to a proxy), the main one involving Pelor giving up direct intercession in the affairs of mortals as part of a larger deal among the gods. Regardless of why a new and unrelated figure was chosen from another world for this position, it is up to everybody else to explain it away.

    I'm personally not too keen on Mayaheine as she has little to do with what Pelor stands for, what the Flan gods in general stand for, and she is a quite horrible dancer, stepping on the toes of Heironeous no matter how she moves. Considering the nature aspect that all Flan gods have, Mayaheine is a huge departure with regard to what type of individual a Flan god would sponsor, and to what portfolio. Mayaheine is not much more than an Amazon Heironeous. I'd rather have Mayaheine either disappear altogether or be worked up in such a way as to actually give her a unique and individual persona and portfolio all her own; something more suitable to the Flan pantheon. Flan can have a warrior deity, but it shouldn’t be some pale imitation of some other deity. It doesn’t really matter that Mayaheine may be considered a common deity; her divinity was sponsored by a Flan deity. The Flan invariably receive short shrift though, so it is no surprise to me that there is no hint of Flan flavor whatsoever in any aspect of Mayaheine. Mayaheine just comes off to me as a gimmick deity. I use her sparingly, but would really like to see Mayaheine develop some unique characteristics of her own put forth in a more indepth article on her.


    Brilliantly put. Sean K. Reynolds, based on what I've seen of him, is one of the biggest advocates of "politically correct" D&D with no distinctions made for race or gender whatever, and is also a big supporter of characters with CRs, power levels, and magic item hoards that are just plain obscene by GH standards.

    Keep in mind that Reynolds is the same joker who claimed that Hieroneous now advocates the longsword along with the battle axe, to attract more support from common soldiers. BS.

    If Mayaheine absolutely must be included in a pantheon, I'd portray her as being favored among those Flan who are governed along matriarchal lines, as some of the Iroquois were and are in real life. She's a defensive being, more concerned with protecting home and hearth from raiding orcs and goblins than crusading against the forces of evil. That's Hieroneous's job. She might actually prefer peaceful negotiations with humans who would otherwise be foes, but if worst comes to worst, she would have no problem taking up arms to defend her people.

    I would also throw out the bit about her being brought from another world, instead having her portrayed as a daughter or sister to Pelor, one concerned with the protection of the young and old alike. She's not concerned with the infamous Flan battle-lust and frenzies in combat, however. Some of Pelor's more martial worshippers among the Flan view that aspect of him, and Pelor's worship in Tenh has created the saying that the surest sign that someone has a death wish is if he attacks a Tenha warrior with only three other men backing him up.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:13 am  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    Sean K. Reynolds, based on what I've seen of him, is one of the biggest advocates of "politically correct" D&D


    Mayaheine was Carl Sargent's creation. SKR had nothing to do with her.

    Quote:
    Keep in mind that Reynolds is the same joker who claimed that Hieroneous now advocates the longsword


    I'm pretty sure that was Jonathan Tweet's innovation. SKR may have defended it, but the deities in the PH were Tweet's responsibility.
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:28 am  

    Mortellan's original post made me wonder of the color of Joan of Arc's eyes and hair. Sargent seemed to enjoy dolloping the Flanaess with British-isms like the unwritten magna carta of Furyondy and the Romanticism he imputed to a Tenha city. (I've written about this years ago on GreyTalk.)

    Leaving the meta, I agree with Mayaheine's defensiveness contra Heironeous's offensiveness and think this was well established in FtA. I like the idea of her being considered a daughter of Pelor. I'm surprised by the idea that she'd be especially revered by the Flan. Remember, Pelor may have also been Sol and worshipped by the Bakluni (can't remember the name -- Al'Asran?).

    IMC, I linked Mayaheine to a FtA Adventure Card regarding a cavern of shadows (reportedly in the Yatils). I'd meant for my PCs to eventually uncover Pelor's corrupted relic, sanctify it with dwur magicks, and thereby birth Mayaheine into Oerth -- linking Pelor with Moradin and Berronar (or perhaps Ulaa). Dwur being good at defense and all... ;)
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:14 am  

    As long as I don't have to play with another of her paladins described as Britney Spears in chainmail. You know who you are....
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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 11:17 am  

    Hijack!!!

    In regards to Heironeous, battleaxes are the default weapon of unaligned chaotic clerics. Can't have the lawful good war god using a chaotic weapon, regardless of how long he's been associated with it, now can we?</sarcasm>
    GreySage

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    Sun Jul 16, 2006 1:42 pm  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    Hijack!!!

    In regards to Heironeous, battleaxes are the default weapon of unaligned chaotic clerics. Can't have the lawful good war god using a chaotic weapon, regardless of how long he's been associated with it, now can we?</sarcasm>


    Yeah, that's goofy. It doesn't make sense to make such arbitrary associations between weapons and alignments anyway.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:33 am  

    Yes it is silly, I just rationalized that the battle axe was the favored weapon early on when the oeridians were marching, warlike and brutal but as they settled and culturally grew more sophicated the warrior elite slowly chose a more elegant weapon, the longsword. Perhaps contact with the elves, cultured as they are, provided the genesis which developed over time.

    Back to Mayaheine; it is pretty clear to me this is a politically correct marketting move to provide a female war deity for the "amazon" players and hopefully draw more women players. Wonder if these players will truly be content playing a "defensive" role as Mayaheine advocates.

    When I read Mayaheine, I to immediately saw Joan, sadly I wasn't keen on her or on the "other world" given the upheaval of the FtA surely their was a worthy female paladin defender somewhere to ascend without resorting to the "other world" scenario. Once again, we are stuck with it.

    As for woesinger's comment; if they thought of it at all which I doubt, that would be 2 the good powers owe but since FtA altered the balance most agree to evil, why not use the mass demonic pacts as the payment. Which explains how such forces were offered to Iuz and Ivid's.

    If we are looking for as evil champion to balance Mayaheine instead of Rary perhaps Delgath "the chosen of Nerull".

    Just a thought...
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 12:44 pm  

    I actually like the otherworldly genesis, as it offers a potential plot hook that expands the setting. If she were from Oerth, that doesn't really offer any additional adventure possibilities - having her be from elsewhere offers an entirely new world to explore, one with a solid Greyhawk connection. If events on one world can affect the other, there is a mystery to solve and an "epic" adventure to be challenged by.

    It's hard to say no to plot hooks, even if you don't intend to use them right now.

    As for why he didn't elevate a local hero, why should he if he had a faithful follower on another world who was next in the queue?
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 8:28 pm  

    I'm generally of the impression there is more to apotheosis than a patron god saying "Zot, be a god!". So I doubt if Pelor really had a choice of "Whom" to elevate. Mayaheine brought herself to the brink of divinity by her own actions. Pelor's sponsorship may have made her a demi goddess instead of a quasi diety or hero diety. Or maybe it was fait accompli for him and he's dealing with it.
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    Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:25 pm  

    The last couple posts brings up a good point. Many lower rung deities, quasis, hero deities, etc are often planar travelers to begin with. Mayaheine coming to Oerth to show off isn't that uncommon when you consider what worlds Murlynd or Kelanen might be treading on. It's almost like an exchange program.

    I also like the notion that she might have brought on her own divinity through her merits and whatnot, that tends to be the way it goes for mortal ascensions. Pelor could have then drawn her off that world since she had become too powerful to walk it as a mortal any longer. I think the articles say she appears in her 30's? I guess Mayaheine went on one of those Adventure Paths that take you from 1st to epic level. ;)
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:55 am  

    Below is a snippit from another post of mine elsewhere, but it is more relevant to this discussion:

    And then there is Mayaheine. She doesn't really fit at all unless you take her protective aspect and apply it to nature (can't really apply her protective aspect to Flan culture, as that is Allitur's job) but she can be a patron of Flan warriors who directly protect all things Flan in the mortal world. If lots of non-Flan also worship Mayaheine then so be it. If she is considered at all, Mayaheine should be considered to be a member of the Flan pantheon, and not just a member of some generic "god club". She was brought to Oerth specifically by a Flan god for a reason. She might be friendly with like-minded gods such as Heironeous, but she should be looking out for those she was brought forth to protect- worshipers of Flan gods (who sponsored her in the first place). In this role she would be quite palatable to me. As the Flan had already received a whoopin' from most of the migrating peoples, and the Rovers were in downward spiral, the Flan gods might not have been too keen on how their peeps had been treated recently, and so a protector was brought forth from elsewhere; an unknown who would set matter right, and without upsetting the delicate balance among the gods (and their agreements/schemes). Sounds good to me at least; better than what we have on her so far anyways. Wink
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:40 am  

    Interesting idea -- linking Pelor's ushering her into Oerth in relation to the degradation of the Arapahi and the Tenha. I'd never thought about it that way because I've tended to think of Pelor as a Common god and linked her to an alliance between Pelor and the dwur gods.

    IMC, she was probably going to be birthed in the Lortmil Mountains rather than the Yatil location suggested in the FtA adventure card. Also, this would help explain her popularity in the Central Flanaess (aided by proximity) along with the general obscurity of her first manifestation on Oerth.
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:53 am  

    Though individual mileage may vary, it seems to me that Pelor's interests seem to be wider than just the Flan (otherwise why not bring in Mayaheine or equivalent through during the Great Migrations, when the Flan were really getting beaten down?).

    This'd tie in with his Solan (Oeridian) and Al Asran (Bakluni) aspects.
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    Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:10 am  

    I tend to be a hard-**** when I DM Greyhawk as far as deities and their followers alignment and which deities allow paladins, etc. I didn't play a lot of 2nd ed. so I am not sure how 'loose' the rules became as far as which gods have paladins and which didn't. When we played 1st edition the deity had to be LG in order to have paladins and this was completely done away with in the transition to 3rd edition when clerics and paladins can be one step in alignment away.

    So in my campaign I always saw Pelor bringing Mayaheine to Oerth as his way of making his priesthood (and Mayaheine is more or less a sect of Pelor's religion) more martial in aspect. Pelor does have some paladins but they are extremely rare being more of a variant NG paladin than a LG paladin in my campaign.

    Also I kinda assumed that Mayaheine was Pelor's way around the non-intervention pact. Perhaps the Greater deities can't raise their mortal followers above Quasi-deity status? If this was the case by raising her on a different Prime and then bringing her to Oerth he was able to gain some wriggle room.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:54 am  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Though individual mileage may vary, it seems to me that Pelor's interests seem to be wider than just the Flan (otherwise why not bring in Mayaheine or equivalent through during the Great Migrations, when the Flan were really getting beaten down?).

    This'd tie in with his Solan (Oeridian) and Al Asran (Bakluni) aspects.



    Well, Mayaheine wasn't around during the migrations and would have to wait a few hundred years before she even became a glimmer in her parents' eyes. As deities go, she is not even a teenager yet! Happy

    Pelor is a Flan god who has been discovered and is worshipped by other cultures. Pelor didn't change his portfolio to suit them. They took what they identified with from him, altering his name (and perhaps image) to suit them. The mortals conform to the gods; not the other way around. Names and images may change, but they are secondary to the god's purpose. Pelor doesn't care all that much that his original persona has been slightly altered by non-Flan, as long as they toe the line and don't commit any blasphemies.

    A god doesn't pay lip service to mortals in how to decide upon what proxy to sponsor and to what reason. Pelor sponsored Mayaheine for his own ends, not to suit some idea of him or his proxy being more universally accepted. The mere fact that a new god had appeared would be awe inspiring enough to determine the worshiper base, rather than put up some doxy appealingly painted to draw in the grinning idiot masses. Mayaheine was brought in to serve and represent Flan ideals, and those that identify with her will worship her or not as they wish too, as is the case with Pelor in various cultures.

    With all the death dealt to the Flan during the Greyhawk Wars, it is almost too convenient that a martial deity of protection suddenly appears as a proxy to Pelor, the only Flan god that really represents warrior ideals, and whose hands are literally tied.

    It is also convenient that the one responsible for wiping out lots of the Flan is none other than Iuz, and so Mayaheine appears and takes up the fight right dead center in the whole mess, garnering followers from pretty much anybody who hates Iuz. Mayaheine has a lot of appeal to the common folk of the central Flanaess just because of this. It is also no wonder that she gets on well with Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and Rao (or should I say "Uncle Rao"), who are the principle deities worshipped in the nations most staunchly opposed to Iuz. It also doesn't hurt that she has something in common with each of them to begin with.

    Very convenient indeed.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:16 am  

    I always knew GH deities was a soap opera but given Cebrion post, I am anxiously awaiting for Iuz to produce Mayaheine's Evil twin.

    Da Da Dum Laughing
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:42 am  

    Quote:
    A god doesn't pay lip service to mortals in how to decide upon what proxy to sponsor and to what reason.
    There are exceptions. Zagyg, ahem.

    Quote:
    It is also convenient that the one responsible for wiping out lots of the Flan is none other than Iuz, and so Mayaheine appears and takes up the fight right dead center in the whole mess, garnering followers from pretty much anybody who hates Iuz. Mayaheine has a lot of appeal to the common folk of the central Flanaess just because of this. It is also no wonder that she gets on well with Heironeous, St. Cuthbert, and Rao (or should I say "Uncle Rao"), who are the principle deities worshipped in the nations most staunchly opposed to Iuz. It also doesn't hurt that she has something in common with each of them to begin with.
    I don't see why it can't be for those reasons AND toward a (sad to say) more politically correct pantheon makeup. While I love the champion of the Flan thing, what about Krovis? Poor Krovis gets no canon love, he is supposed to be the demi-god champion against Flan oppression yet he has never got official status on the god lists. The rest of that famous Pomarj Dragon Mag article made it into canon. Tsk.
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 6:29 pm  

    First, a mini-rant. No personal offense intended!

    I'm wary of calling anything "politically correct" because (as I've critiqued at length on GreyTalk), I question the validity of the entire concept. As you (should know), the term was pushed by Rush Limbaugh and other neoconservative pundits in the early 1990s as part of an ongoing political project. Simplistically stated, it's a political project that is contra the political project known as the U.S. civil rights movement.

    Based on the mean evolution of the term (which itself obscures its 1940s critique of Stalinism), I seriously question the concept's utility to help anyone understand phenomena critically. Instead, the term seems to promote lazy thinking. One calls something politically correct, and all right-minded people are supposed to shun it as having already been proven unworthy of serious regard. Just because a meme has infected most of us doesn't mean it's valid!

    <end mini-rant>

    Because I've never thought of Mayaheine as especially Flan and because I've never read of anyone else having so described her until this thread, I'm going to push against presuming that she should be regarded as a Flan savior.

    As I understand it, Cooke savaged the Arapahi and Tenha, and Sargent had to salvage it. While he may have introduced Mayaheine as their savior, he didn't make that point in any of his FtA publications. Rather, as this thread has earlier commented, he seems to have created a Joan of Arc-esque character.

    Given that Sarget was / is British, the notion of political correctness seems especially off-point. Instead, he seems to have been much more interested in adapting parts of European history, especially that of England (and perhaps France).

    What say ye?
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    Wed Jul 19, 2006 11:35 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    There are exceptions. Zagyg, ahem.


    Xagyg is not an exception. Boccob didn't poll all mortals with the question "What kind of proxy should I sponsor?" Zagyg pushed the issue himself through various means of achieving divine status, similar to the other ascended. Boccob certainly didn't cow-tow to any mortal when choosing to elevate Zagyg, and certainly didn't do it because he was hoping the kids would then think he was cool or that he would get more worshippers by doing it. Wink No, Zagyg is not an exception.

    As to the PC issue, I don’t think the Flan pantheon is much in need of that. Who’s the preeminent power in the Flan pantheon? I don’t know about everyone else, but Beory seems to be THE power. If a strong female martial deity role is needed, I find it odd that a deity often described as similar to Joan d’Arc should be added to the pantheon of the Old Faith. As she is portrayed, Mayaheine has nothing in common with the Old Faith. You’d think that the rest of the pantheon might call Pelor on his choice for that reason alone. As she is now, Mayaheine would be better placed in the Oeridian or Suel pantheon, but we are stuck with Pelor as her sponsor. What comes next, by necessity in my opinion, is to figure out how she fits into the Old Faith. My idea that she was brought forth as a protector of the Flan fits in nicely, particularly as she serves a warrior deity who cannot directly aid his worshippers as most of the other gods can from time to time. This is the major problem I see with Mayaheine. Regarding the whole picture, as she is currently portrayed, Mayaheine has no role in the Old Faith. Solving this important issue might only require some simple defining of her role among the Flan pantheon, and how she interacts with the other Flan deities, and more importantly how this defines her place in the Old Faith. We already know how Mayaheine interacts with some well known non-Flan good deities. I would prefer to see Mayaheine made into something other than a pale imitation of other gods by giving her a purpose for her placement in the grand scheme.

    While I can understand the PC aspect of Mayaheine, it certainly shouldn't be used as an actual reason why Pelor chose her, or why she is the way that she is. Things fell out the way they did due to what she turned out to be and she wasn't designed to be that way by Pelor. She was available and Pelor chose her to fill the need. Perhaps Mayaheine's home world could be reached through the Demonweb. Lolth's armies had conquered her home world, and Pelor whisked her away at the brink and brought her to GH to aid the Flan people.

    Just some ideas.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:02 am  

    Y'see, I think the Flan thing is distracting here. If Pelor were really worried about the fate of the Flan to the exclusion of all else - he'd have produced a champion for them during the Migrations (it didn't have to be Mayaheine).

    Further, given that Mayaheine apparently appeared in Chathold and Chendl (can't recall if that was IMC or Canon though...so ingest with salt) and not in Gorna, Nevond Nevnend or on the Barrens - I'd say her focus was more general than the Flannae. Doesn't mean she doesn't care about the plight of the Flan - just that they're not her only or primary concern.

    Pelor is now a common god, not just Flan, so I don't really have a problem with Mayaheine not being a hippy Flan chick. Happy
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:34 am  

    It's safe to say that Mayaheine has nothing whatsoever to do with the Old Faith - that religion doesn't accept new deities by definition. Pelor himself is only tangental to it - members of the Old Faith may, at times, worship Pelor, but it doesn't follow that every worshipper of Pelor is a member of the Old Faith. The vast majority aren't. Mayaheine seems most popular in places like Hardby, with its predominantly Suel population.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:36 pm  

    Woesinger wrote:
    Y'see, I think the Flan thing is distracting here. If Pelor were really worried about the fate of the Flan to the exclusion of all else - he'd have produced a champion for them during the Migrations (it didn't have to be Mayaheine).
    Again, 'What about Krovis?' Okay he is just a quasi-deity but that just means he got skipped over for a promotion. Here is his stuff from Dragon 167:
    Hidden in the sandy hills of the Pomarj lies the resting place of Krovis, a quasideity. Krovis has been resting in a hidden crypt for almost 2,000 years, awaiting-the time, foretold in several ancient Flan legends, when his presence is once more required in the Flanaess. Krovis is close the deity Trithereon (The Summoner),and it is his purpose to prevent the domination of any goodly portion of the Flanaess by a single individual or state. Krovis's avatar has, in the past, emerged from his crypt to bring down several empires that dominated the central regions of the Flanaess, including the dominions of the Isles of Woe and the Empire Lum the Mad (both of which occurred more than 1,000 years ago). There are whispers from those sages that know of his existence (not many do) that the current machinations of the Great Kingdom and certain of the Princes of the Abyss could potentially awaken Krovis from his sleep.
    ---
    Krovis is of pure Flan stock (bronze skin, brown eyes, curly brown hair)and is known as a master military strategist as well as a skilled negotiator. His efforts in these matters will almost always be used toward the downfall of some empire or whatever else threatens to dominate the
    Flanaess.

    It seems to me that Sargent dropped the ball here. From what was mentioned before I can see why Sargent injected some Euro-legend into Greyhawk but this was already sitting here in print for years to be used. I still don't understand why Krovis is neglected. Is he cheesy? He sure seems to have a purpose in the current Greyhawk Era moreso than Mayaheine. His only drawback is that he is neutral and would be as likely to bring down a good empire as a evil one. This isn't too bad though for Pelor could've called on him to stem the tide of Iuz and his Abyssal allies, whereas maybe in a time past Nerull, another Flan god might've rallied him to reap some haughty souls?
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:57 pm  

    1. I think quasi-deities are expected to promote themselves.
    2. Krovis is more likely to be called by Trithereon than Pelor.
    3. It's possible certain rituals, mandated by laws older than the greater gods, are required to awaken Krovis from his sleep.
    4. It'd be better if the PCs did it during the course of a campaign than to have the gods do it behind the scenes. It's possible the gods aren't permitted to interfere in this matter at all, by the terms of their treaty with one another.
    5. Where was Krovis during the height of Aerdy? Or, for that matter, why doesn't he target Keoland? How much is "goodly?" Did he bring down the Hateful Wars solely to end Keoish domination over the Drachengrabs?
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 3:27 pm  

    Yargh!
    rasgon wrote:
    1. I think quasi-deities are expected to promote themselves.
    Good point, I still made the reference that he could've been elevated with less fanfare. He was after all already immortal, Mayaheine just climbed the ladder from quasi-deity to hero-deity to demi in one bound.

    Quote:
    2. Krovis is more likely to be called by Trithereon than Pelor.
    Now I see why Krovis doesn't get used much, Trithereon likes to hog the retribution ;)

    Quote:
    3. It's possible certain rituals, mandated by laws older than the greater gods, are required to awaken Krovis from his sleep.
    4. It'd be better if the PCs did it during the course of a campaign than to have the gods do it behind the scenes. It's possible the gods aren't permitted to interfere in this matter at all, by the terms of their treaty with one another.
    It's hard for a quasi-deity to 'promote himself' if he cannot depend on higher powers to rouse him at the right time or he has to wait for lesser mortals to ritually awaken him.

    Quote:
    5. Where was Krovis during the height of Aerdy? Or, for that matter, why doesn't he target Keoland? How much is "goodly?" Did he bring down the Hateful Wars solely to end Keoish domination over the Drachengrabs?
    That is all the more reason why his omission from the latest tyrannical episode is a shame. While I like Mayaheine personally and can find much use for her presently and in the future, Krovis could've been a more practical deity to spring up during the Greyhawk Wars, and with the added benefit of him going back to bed once Iuz or whoever is crushed.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:03 pm  

    I’d agree that the ball got dropped with regard to Krovis, particularly after his transformation story came out. He could have taken a very interesting place as a god of dark aspect in the Flan pantheon- not evil, just dark.

    As to Mayaheine, I have been ruminating over her after reading the other ideas put forth here, and I guess the main thing that bugs me about her is the lack of any clear dedication on her part towards the Flan, other than one of her main credos being “Obedience to Pelor the Sun Father is as important as devotion to the Shield Maiden.” That is a pretty strong statement, but it doesn’t really say anything. Pelor is basically the flan war god, while to a lesser extent some could point to Krovis as another possible option, and even Obad-hai could be viewed as a warrior god under his “wild” aspect. Even still, Pelor is an outright warrior god.

    While the Migrations saw some dispersion and violence occur to the Flan; they were mostly absorbed into the migrating cultures. They willingly joined the Oeridians in most cases. The Suel took advantage surely, but even they absorbed them in many locations such as in Geoff to name but one. The Flan saw the most brutality under the thumb of Vecna. So, the Migrations were not necessarily a time when a protector was needed, particularly as the Flan pantheon began to cross cultural boundaries.

    While Pelor is a considered a common god, that merely means he is commonly venerated in many lands. The Flan are common stock in most lands of the Flanaess. Pelor’s universality is linked to his portfolio in my opinion. Practically every culture has some version of a sun god, which is usually Pelor by another name, and that’s fine. Pelor however is and always will be a Flan deity and a member of the Old Faith. Any mortal who Pelor would sponsor to ascension would undoubtedly become part of the Old Faith as well, and would fill a role in the scheme of the Flan pantheon, other than to be Pelor’s yes-woman (referring to the “Obedience to Pelor the Sun Father is as important as devotion to the Shield Maiden.” credo). The role that Mayaheine would come to fill(her portfolio) would become very popular among the common folk(including Flan) who worship Pelor, as not only is she the champion of their deity, she is their deity’s champion manifest upon Oerth during the Greyhawk Wars. It is no wonder that her presence resulted in the turning of the tide in some regions, and that this contributed to the rapid growth of her own church, and probably boosted that of Pelor as well.

    I think it misrepresents Pelor to confuse his portfolio or origin with him being a common god. There are only four pantheons- Suloise, Baklunish, Flan, and Oeridian. There is no Common pantheon; only commonly accepted/worshipped gods. That is what the “Common” designation refers to. To strip away the racial/cultural aspect of the gods is to whitewash them in my mind, which is contrary to what made them interesting to lots of common folks in the first place. Pelor is commonly venerated because of how he is perceived, and probably receives some whitewashing here and there, but he is still a Flan god. Pelor isn’t responsible for whatever whitewashing there may be- mortals are. Pelor isn’t a part time Flan god, and only does the “Old Faith” thing on the weekends. Non-Flan cultures might downplay the “Old Faith” angle, and perhaps event the perception of Pelor as Flan, but that is not uncommon (it is easy to see why a god would allow worshipers to perceive them in the most familiar light). These are integral facets of what makes up Pelor, and as his champion and representative, Mayaheine would as well. She serves Pelor faithfully. She doesn’t twist peoples’ perceptions of Pelor. She is an interesting character though, as she is not Flan in origin, which probably enables a greeter degree of whitewashing of her purpose and peoples’ perception of her.

    I think reconciling Mayaheine's role in the Flan pantheon/Old Faith will go a long way to making her fit into things. For now Mayaheine is a member of the Shriners (Flan chapter), but she has yet to get her cooky tasseled fez. Wink
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:40 pm  

    There aren't any "pantheons" as such in the modern Flanaess. The old races are long dead - the Tenha, while descended from the Flan and culturally distinct from Oeridian-descended cultures, are still not their ancestors, not the ten tribes who wandered to the foot of the Rakers so many centuries ago. The Rovers are very like their ancestors, but still they are not unchanged by the influx of new peoples and new ideas to their continent.

    No one worships "the Flan Pantheon" or "the Oeridian Pantheon" - they worship at the Church of Veluna or the Church of the Blinding Light. They worship the gods of Onnwal or the gods of Sterich.

    Further, I don't think there ever was a Flan pantheon - the Flan are a culturally diverse people who worshipped a vast number of different combinations of gods and spirits. The religion of those Flan in the ancient Tilvanot bears no resemblance to the religion of the Flan of Sulm or those of the Vale of Luna. Each had their own pantheon - some worshipped Pelor, but many did not.

    Pelor was never exclusively Flan - I think the most that can be said is that there were those among the Flan who held him in higher esteem than any other peoples. Even before they left their homelands, the Oeridians knew Sol; long before the Invoked Devastation, the Baklunish knew Al'Asran.

    The Old Faith is a human institution, not a divine one. Certainly Beory and Obad-hai never told their worshippers "You shall worship us this way and in no others" - all of the gods known in the Old Faith are worshipped in a variety of other contexts, and the gods accept all of them with equal grace.

    The Old Faith is, at its core, a conservative movement. At some point, long before the Migrations, a group of Flan decided their children were forgetting the old traditions and developed structures for preserving their religion and culture as it was indefinitely. Thus it became the Old Faith, to distinguish it from newer faiths that followed it. The Old Faith can never accept new gods. For the Old Faith to incorporate new faiths into its structure is a contradiction in terms.
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    Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:04 pm  

    Err, Pelor is a war god? Pelor is the god of healing and the strength to endure suffering and resist evil. Unless I'm misremembering, there is no indication he was any sort of war god at any point when the FLan were a coherent ethnic group. It was only with the FtA that he started being a martial god, afaik.

    And I definitely agree with Rasgon that Pelor is far more than an Old Faith deity. The Old Faith is a religion in which Pelor is worshipped. Its not the be all and end all of Pelor.
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:59 am  

    Rasgon's last post for me hits the nail on the head...

    In the majority of the Flanaess the various lands are a mish mash of many cultures and whilst certain pantheons may have more popularity linked to the ethnic breakdown I think it is misleading to consider the various deities from too strong a ethnicity basis.

    I really don't think Mayaheine needs to have a place found for her amongst the Flan deities and definitely has no need for a place in the Old Faith.

    Pelor is a Flan god agreed, but his worship is now wide spread. Pelor doe snot believe his gifts of healing and light belong only to the Flan. He is a kind and generous god and he welcomes the worship of any who choose to lend it to him. Politics I would imagine feature very low down on Pelor's agenda. Look at the nature of Pelor - would he raise a champion to godhood for political correctness or because the earned the right for their own deeds and for their unswerving service to helping and defending innocents? I think the answer is obvious. Pelor is also a NG good...that's not really the alignment of a political deity.

    Mayaheine attained godhood because she earned the right to do it...above all other champions of good, for whatever reason she was chosen...the Flanaess is threatened from every border and from within...Pelor in his only recently perceived role as a more martial god is out of his league and needed help...so he elevated Mayaheine, a paladin who was familiar with combat and war. He's not an aggressive god so it makes perfect sense to pick a deity of defence and protection.

    I would imagine he chose from outside Greyspace so he could have a ally who was not already emotionally involved in Greyhawk and whose pursuit of the cause of good and defence would be given free of prejudice to all who would ask for it.

    I really don't think Mayaheine needs to find a plac ein a pantheon. She is part of a new breed of deities freed from such culturally restraints and reflective of a more ethnically merged Flanaess. She will be worshipped by those who value you her cause. Take St.Cuthbert...he is not associated with any pantheon and yet his popularity is huge...maybe for that very reason?

    As a side note I also totally agree that I doubt there ever was a proper Flan 'pantheon' due to the disparate and ununified nature of the Flan. In the same way I can;t imagine that the Oeridians had much in the way of a pantheon until the rise of Aerdy as they too were tribal . Look at Ancient EGypt...it is believed that the subsequent Egyptian pantheons were once the individual tribal gods of nomadic tribes....it wasn;t until they settled that the most popular or influential of these deities formed a tangible group.
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:48 am  

    In chat we discussed the possibility that Mayaheine came from a bizarro parallel Oerth where evil and good were reversed, so that bizarro Iggwilv mated with a solar to create bizarro good-aligned Iuz - whom she named Mayaheine. Thus Mayaheine and Iuz are in some respect the same person, different incarnations of the same soul, which would explain why she was chosen to help fight him.
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 7:58 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    In chat we discussed the possibility that Mayaheine came from a bizarro parallel Oerth where evil and good were reversed, so that bizarro Iggwilv mated with a solar to create bizarro good-aligned Iuz - whom she named Mayaheine. Thus Mayaheine and Iuz are in some respect the same person, different incarnations of the same soul, which would explain why she was chosen to help fight him.


    Whoa!
    You guys might want to have a mantra for Greytalk "Whats said on Greytalk stays on Greytalk" or something to that effect...
    Happy

    But seriously that one sounds like a perfect story line for the Castle Greyhawk supermod...

    I guess if I don't like that explanation I should at least try to add something constructive to the thread. What about the alternate planes from Queen of the Demonweb Pits? I know those were rewritten in FC1 by Mr. Mona... anything sound like a Mayaheine type material plane?
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:07 pm  

    Lassiviren wrote:


    I guess if I don't like that explanation I should at least try to add something constructive to the thread. What about the alternate planes from Queen of the Demonweb Pits? I know those were rewritten in FC1 by Mr. Mona... anything sound like a Mayaheine type material plane?


    There are a couple of possibilities...

    The Frozen Lands...in this Prime Material Plane Lolth has successfully conquered the icy norhtern reaches and has a string of mountain holds that are allowing her to stage a campaign against the warmer lands to the south. Maybe Mayaheine is from one of these warmer lands...desperately holding off Lolth's advances

    The Nightworld of Vlad Tolenkov...a sunless world where plant life is only sustained by ancient magics. The vampire Vlad has been recruited by Lolth and is content on harrying the peoples of this Nightworld. It would make an interesting idea for Mayaheine to come from a sunless world..maybe she managed to bring sunlight into the world ending Vlad's reign and ending Lolth's threat and this is tied into the sun god Pelor somehow

    In the appendices ar ementioned a few others...

    a world of clouds and floating castles...a sun god would maybe be quite important in such a land.

    and finally our own Earth is mentioned as a possible plane to visit - how very Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. Maybe Mayaheine is one of you lot's mum? Cool
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    Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:06 pm  

    Just a brief note that nothing in the FtA era suggests that Sargent was familiar with or utilized Joe Bloch's "See the Pomarj ... and Die!" article.

    Rather, parts of that article were incorporated in the GH'98 product, _Slavers_.

    I too like Krovis and think he should definitely be awaked for the end of the GH Wars or shortly thereafter.

    The reign of the Mak will be cut short, when Krovis wakes, and woe unto the Flanaess, for he shall not be satisfied merely to end the 'Empire where none before has stood!' Rather he must cross the Nyr Dyv and confront the Old One.
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    Sun Jul 23, 2006 1:25 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    There aren't any "pantheons" as such in the modern Flanaess. The old races are long dead - the Tenha, while descended from the Flan and culturally distinct from Oeridian-descended cultures, are still not their ancestors, not the ten tribes who wandered to the foot of the Rakers so many centuries ago. The Rovers are very like their ancestors, but still they are not unchanged by the influx of new peoples and new ideas to their continent.


    Certainly there are pantheons. The old races are hardly dead; they have just intermixed in many areas of the western and central Flanaess (except in the Baklunish lands). It’s easy to point to any adherent to the Old Faith, the Scarlet Brotherhood (in addition, most Suel are too arrogant to worship any god but a Suel one, even in the modern non-Scarlet Brotherhood controlled Flanaess), pretty much all Baklunish (they are very insular), and any hold-outs of the Great Kingdom are going to be very prone to worshipping the obviously superior Oeridian gods. Will there be exceptions (lots of them) in more moderate areas? Certainly. Just because many deities of different cultural origins are worshipped in a land worships doesn’t mean there are not pantheons, or that the various peoples living in those lands are not prone to worshipping the gods particular to their culture. Pantheistic worship is simply not portrayed in the same way everywhere, in particular because of the propensity for individual religions to each have their own center of worship. The Flan are portrayed being as diverse as the people of South America, roughly. Oddly enough, most of those tribes worshipped the same deities, though they knew them by different names, or didn’t know some of them in common at all. The different tribes did not revere all of the same deities or even hold them to the same level of importance. People are pretty protective of their cultural beliefs, and this is apparent in many lands in the Flanaess, though not all.

    rasgon wrote:
    No one worships "the Flan Pantheon" or "the Oeridian Pantheon" - they worship at the Church of Veluna or the Church of the Blinding Light. They worship the gods of Onnwal or the gods of Sterich.


    I disagree with this in some ways. It’s easy to point to any adherent to the Old Faith, the Scarlet Brotherhood (actually, many Suel are too arrogant to worship any god but a Suel one, even in the modern non-Scarlet Brotherhood controlled Flanaess), pretty much all Baklunish (they are very insular), and any hold-outs of the Great Kingdom are going to be very prone to worshipping the obviously superior Oeridian gods. Will there be exceptions (even lots of them) in more moderate areas? Certainly. One could say the Flan religion is unique in that there is a specific pantheistic group of worshipers (the Old Faith), but this is not entirely true. Each culture is insular in regard to their own deities, though I’d agree that this definitely has changed as peoples have become mixed, particularly in certain areas, and due to churches dedicated to a specific god having gained prominence.

    rasgon wrote:
    Further, I don't think there ever was a Flan pantheon - the Flan are a culturally diverse people who worshipped a vast number of different combinations of gods and spirits. The religion of those Flan in the ancient Tilvanot bears no resemblance to the religion of the Flan of Sulm or those of the Vale of Luna. Each had their own pantheon - some worshipped Pelor, but many did not.


    Sure there is a Flan Pantheon. A diverse group of peoples can have a common group of deities and not worship them all. The South American tribes are a good example of this. Another good example is the current discussion on the Seldarine, which states that all elves everywhere worship different Seldarine gods, and that some of those gods have a place of prominence in one place and are even unknown in others. This usually is a consequence of geographical distance/division. Mortals are by no means omniscient.

    rasgon wrote:
    Pelor was never exclusively Flan - I think the most that can be said is that there were those among the Flan who held him in higher esteem than any other peoples. Even before they left their homelands, the Oeridians knew Sol; long before the Invoked Devastation, the Baklunish knew Al'Asran.


    83” Folio excerpt: “Following the name of each deity is that deity’s ranking- G, L, or D. Then the racial origin of the deity is stated: Pelor FC” This confirms Pelor as a Flan deity in origin. The “C” simply serves to confirm that, even though Pelor is a deity of Flan origin, he is widely worshipped by all cultures. I’d agree that Pelor’s appeal makes him almost from the beginning a Common god, regardless of his Flan origin. The Oeridians traded with the Flanaess prior to the TC’s and so could easily have imported Pelor/Sol, particularly into a land bathed by the sun; worshipping a god of sun, strength, and healing seems natural for the Oeridian tribes. The Baklunish knew of Al’ Asran before there was even a Baklunish empire. Azor’ alq (NG hero-god of Light, Purity, Courage, and Strength, domains good, sun, war) would seem to make the perfect servant of Pelor/Al’Asran, but I’m not sure who elevated him. A perfect match though right down to the NG alignment, and as Azor’ alq was also a champion who defended what would become the Baklunish royal family and peoples from the “forces of Darkness” (who Pelor/Al’Asran was and is certainly an enemy of) during “the flight from their defiled homeland over the desolate western mountains.”(LGJ #3) Barring that, the Baklunish are known to have intermixed with the Flan in the far past, giving rise to the mixed blood of the Tiger Nomads, and to a slightly lesser extent the Wolf Nomads, which gives access to the introduction and adoption of Pelor/Al’ Asran prior to the TC’s and the Migrations. There is a lot of leeway in explaining how worship of Pelor became so widespread.

    rasgon wrote:
    The Old Faith is a human institution, not a divine one. Certainly Beory and Obad-hai never told their worshippers "You shall worship us this way and in no others" - all of the gods known in the Old Faith are worshipped in a variety of other contexts, and the gods accept all of them with equal grace. The Old Faith is, at its core, a conservative movement. At some point, long before the Migrations, a group of Flan decided their children were forgetting the old traditions and developed structures for preserving their religion and culture as it was indefinitely. Thus it became the Old Faith, to distinguish it from newer faiths that followed it. The Old Faith can never accept new gods. For the Old Faith to incorporate new faiths into its structure is a contradiction in terms.



    I agree completely with the broadness and variety of worship. Some of my ideas go to the influence of druids and their perception in Greyhawk, particularly among the Old Faith, which I view solely as having a druidic base. The thread “Closing the Circle- The Old Faith” goes into this in a bit more detail. Other than what I posted in that thread, I’d also say that not all Flan worship their gods according to the Old Faith and/or in a pantheistic way, hence why there are actual clerics of Flan gods with individual organizations and churches rather than they all being druids. I’d also agree that, especially in the modern era of Greyhawk, the Old Faith is considered a conservative movement. Keep in mind that when I speak of the Old Faith, and the pantheistic view of that movement, I am referring to the druidic faith only. It is not my intention to include regular clerics and their churches/practices in that group. Looking at non-Flan groups, while most worshipers would pay homage to an individual deity, it would to my mind be common practice to pray to or make offerings to other gods of the particular pantheon in certain instances. For instance, a follower of Heironeous might pray to Heironeous on the eve of a battle at sea, and also offer a prayer to Procan for his blessing as well. Many people would have a patron deity and give lesser attention to the other deities in their cultural pantheon (and other pantheons too) as a sign of respect or to garner favor/protection.

    And now, on to Mayaheine and her place in the Old Faith, which is my real impetus as to making her more interesting (I probably didn’t really make that very clear- my fault). Among such a pantheistic religion, when one of the main deities of the pantheon chooses to elevate a servant to divine status, there certainly should be a good reason for it from the Old Faith point of view. Mayaheine should accordingly fill a defined role among the gods. How does she fit into the druidic pantheistic view? This was my specific intention as to fleshing out what I consider to be a rather lackluster addition to the list of Greyhawk gods, and also as a means of infusing a bit more character into the oft-ignored Flan. With regard to the Church of Pelor, Mayaheine is probably interpreted as she currently is. The Church of Pelor and the Old Faith are two very different groups though. The Old Faith is very culturally influenced. The Church of Pelor is not, and is representative of the universal worship of the deity as Pelor, Sol, Al’ Asran, or whatever other name he may be known by.

    Great discussion so far, though I'd like to see more of everyone else's views of Mayaheine- more of what you think she is rather than what you think she isn't. The varied views of everyone are great. While I find that all of us seldom, if ever, agree on anything, discussions of this kind provide an impetus for me to more fully delineate my own view of things, which is why I find threads like this so enjoyable.
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    GreySage

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    Sun Jul 23, 2006 5:56 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    The old races are hardly dead; they have just intermixed in many areas of the western and central Flanaess (except in the Baklunish lands).


    Really, they've been gone for a thousand years now. For a modern-day Keoish man to call himself Suel is more extreme than a modern English person distinguishing identifying as an Angle, Saxon, or Jute. The folk of Duchy Urnst know they have Suel ancestry and the folk of Tenh know of their Flan heritage, but they've got new national identities today.

    Quote:
    It’s easy to point to any adherent to the Old Faith, the Scarlet Brotherhood (in addition, most Suel are too arrogant to worship any god but a Suel one, even in the modern non-Scarlet Brotherhood controlled Flanaess), pretty much all Baklunish (they are very insular), and any hold-outs of the Great Kingdom are going to be very prone to worshipping the obviously superior Oeridian gods.


    The Old Faith isn't the Flan pantheon; it's a narrow set of traditions inherited from the ancient Flan, yes, but you don't have to be Flan racially to belong to it. A druid of purely Oeridian descent could join it just as easily.

    The Scarlet Brotherhood pantheon isn't exactly the same as the Suel pantheon - it's a corrupt thing which gives undue emphasis on Syrul and Pyremius, minor gods to the authentic Suel but given greatest honors in the artificial neo-Suel state religion of the Tilvanot.

    The Baklunish consider Pelor to be their god, and they're not wrong. Pelor raised both Azor-alq and Al'Akbar to their present states.

    I don't agree that the average modern-day Suel or Oeridian would insist on Suel or Oeridian gods. Any of the common deities are going to be as common as the musty old gods of their ancestors. Just as modern day Swedes don't necessarily worship the gods of the old Norse, people of today's Great Kingdom don't necessarily choose Pholtus above Rao.

    There may be pantheons, but they're new pantheons. One church might revere the gods of Law, including Pholtus, Rao, Wee Jas, and Al'Akbar on the same altar. One church might worship gods of the wind, and propitiate Velnius, Phaulkon, and Akadi.

    Some gods will be more common in some areas than others, and yes ethnicity will play a role - but not the only or even the most important role.

    On the ancient Flan, I don't think any pre-Cataclysmic Flan tribe worshipped both Pelor and Rao, for example. The deities represent two completely different world views, and I don't think they were ever part of the same mythos.

    Quote:
    A perfect match though right down to the NG alignment, and as Azor’ alq was also a champion who defended what would become the Baklunish royal family and peoples from the “forces of Darkness” (who Pelor/Al’Asran was and is certainly an enemy of) during “the flight from their defiled homeland over the desolate western mountains.”(LGJ #3)


    Is Azor'alq, then, a Flan champion because he was likely sponsored by Pelor? If Azor'alq can be specifically Baklunish, why does Mayaheine - from a different world entirely - have to be Flan?

    Quote:
    Barring that, the Baklunish are known to have intermixed with the Flan in the far past, giving rise to the mixed blood of the Tiger Nomads, and to a slightly lesser extent the Wolf Nomads


    The Wolf and Tiger Nomads didn't intermix with the Flan until the early 300s CY, when the Brazen Horde entered the Flanaess. Before then, the only nomads roaming that region were Rovers.

    As for the nature of the Old Faith, I don't think I have anything new to add, but I stand by my earlier arguments.
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    Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:26 am  

    rasgon wrote:

    Really, they've been gone for a thousand years now. For a modern-day Keoish man to call himself Suel is more extreme than a modern English person distinguishing identifying as an Angle, Saxon, or Jute. The folk of Duchy Urnst know they have Suel ancestry and the folk of Tenh know of their Flan heritage, but they've got new national identities today.



    I agree that the racial groups are less important today than it is generally made out in discussion, but I think you are pushing it too far. The Suel, the Oerids, and the Flan are different phenotypes. Most people, particularly the commoners, are going to think "I'm Keoish" (or perhaps "I'm Crylloran") before they think "I'm Suel". But the races are more distinctive and more relevant than the Jutes/Angles/Saxons split. Jutes/Angles/Saxons/Normans are more equivalent to different tribes of Oeridians than the to Oeridian vs Flan. The difference is more like the celts vs germans situation in Britain. Most people are so mixed it doesn't matter physically. And the cultural distinctions are more symbolic than real. But there are distinctions, still.

    As for the pantheons, I think they are less important than the religions certainly. And the Flan pantheon in particular seems an anthropologists' construct rather than a group of gods who actually are related and hang out together.
    GreySage

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    Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:07 am  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    I think you are pushing it too far.


    Perhaps; I do resort to hyperbole easily when I'm coming from a radically different perspective.

    Suel and Flan are more different morphologically than Angles and Jutes, so no - it's not a perfect parallel. Perhaps a comparison between Celts and Picts would be better, or Spaniards and Aztecs (adding another 500 years to Mexico's blending).

    What I was trying to get at is that it's been a long, long time since the Migrations, and most people in most parts of the Flanaess are thoroughly blended. Everyone knows that Urnstans are paler than Tenha, they have substantially different cultures, and this is a result of their respective ancestries, but I don't think it goes much further than that at this late date.
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    Sun Jul 23, 2006 7:12 pm  

    In the places that were once part of the Great Kingdom, I think that is very true. The cultural differences are national rather than ethnic. The Tenha and Rovers are notably Flan ethnically, however.

    There are certainly some noble houses where the ethnic heritage matters. The Keoish great families are, if not actually pure blooded, at least self defined as "Suel" or "Oerid" in a good number of cases. I think a number of the noble familes of break away Great Kingdom realms may play up a Oerid or "not Oerid" lineage for political reasons as well.

    Still, the Keoish culture is certainly distinct from its migrations era ancestors and the same is pretty much true everywhere else. The Tenha are not exclusively worshipping Flan deities nor are they worshipping all of the dieties called "Flan".
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:37 am  

    I think when it comes to the current day people of the Flanaess considering and playing importance to their ethnic background it is likely that it is still important to them.

    The perfect example is the U.S.A. which I imagine is the locaiton of a lot of the members of Canonfire. Whilst you all consider yourselves Americans the contact I have had with Americans (I lived there for 2 years) showed me that they are very aware of their ethnic heritage. Maybe this is just a feature of young adults and teens who I had the most exposure too but conversations frequently consisted of them saying they were one half Irish and one half French or a quarter Spanish a quarter Italian and a half English. Ethnicity plays an important part in the way they define themselves.

    Also a perfect model for the Flan descendants and how they view their hertiage can be seen in the Native Americans who were in part the inspiration for the Flan as much as the Celts I think. Many Native Americans are very aware of their heritage...some and today probabaly most are very proud of it...other histirically may have been ashamed...all are aware of the treatment they received at the hands of the settlers.

    The morphological comparisons of Spaniard and Aztec or Pict and Celt are possible not extreme enough. The descriptions of the ethnic groups are quite distinct...the Suloise are physically very different to the Flan and the Oeridians...the Flan and Oeridians do have some colouration similarities but in terms of bone structure they are no more similar than Native Americans and Italians for example. Or take Britian with its Carribean settlers that arrive din the 50s and 60s....there is no question as to the ethnic difference between a native ENglish person and a British Carribean person. So if you are Keoish for example it will be quite apparent still what your background is. A blond haired Keoish person is clearly of Suloise blood, someone with red-bronze skin and high cheekbones is clearly displaying a Flan trait. I think that people are still very aware of their ethnicity the only difference is the importance it plays in their lives on a personal level. To some it may not matter at all to others it is important in defining themselves as people have always needed a feeling of origin and belonging.

    Taking a look at religion the main difference between using Earth models and compring it to the Flanaess is the the Oerth deities are without any shadow of doubt real forces that exist. God, Allah, Buddha....there is not such clear evidence that they actually exist. I think you are less likely to abandon the gods you have always worshipped in favour of new gods when the previous gods have granted your priests real powers and help defend you for centuries. If at all you may be likley to welcome the worship of a new god that benefits you. Where the Oerth model aybe coincides with the Earth model is that generally people follow the religions that their families follow...and that religion is likely to be related to your ethnic origin first of all and then secondarilly to your geographic location...

    Take Ireland for example - there is little in the way of religious diversity outside of the few accepted faiths.

    Many of the British Carribean settlers in Britain still follow the same denominations of Christianity that they did in the Caribbean - they have not all adopted the Church of England. Using my own homeland again as the example, take a walk through most British cities and you will see Christian churches (of many denominations...catholic, greek orthodox, anglican, protestant, even a polish church amongst others), mosques, synogogues and others. If people can keep to the religions of their ethnicity so strongly in a world where it cant be proven if such gods exist then in a world where it is 100% proven I think such people would be even less likely to change faiths. The dig difference is however most of todays religions are monotheistic. In the Flaness pantheistic religions change this a little.

    However looking historically at pantheistic cultures on Earth and then looking at Oerth I think you have to decide would, for example, the Oeridians incorporate popular deities of other pantheons into their own pantheon, like the Romans or would they seek to stamp these competitor religions because afterall religion has always had the tightest grip on the population and historically has been perhaps one of the mojor reasons for warfare and attroicities. ALternatively would they have taken a Moorish perspective and whils tnot adopting these new gods they instead did not interfere with the worship of the peoples they conquered.

    As a basis for this decision perhaps we should look at how the Migrations groups interacted with the natives. Genrally the overpowered them with force...in these situaitons it seems unlikely they welcomed the indiginous gods with open arms. This leads me to think that in many regions the Flan gods were brought low and some now are forgotten. The only gods to make it through are the powerful Flan deities most of whom also have the common descriptor...Pelor, Beory, Nerull and Rao...in the case of Rao the Oerdians who settled in the Vale of Luna did so peacefully and it makes sense they incorporate Rao.

    ALthough I could write more I htink I should summarise...

    yes I think ethnicity is still noted in the Flanaess but the importance that is played on it varies...but I would say to most it is still fairy significant.

    For this reason I think that if for example you are of Flan descent you will still tend to favour Flan deities as the worship of such gods has been passed down generation to generation.

    On a larger scale...I think the distribution of worship is strongly linked to the ethnic makeup - regions where Oeridians are most dominant will see heavier woship of Oeridian gods. In some cases deities of other pantheons may have been incorporated an absorbed from other settlers or from the indigenous peoples. A lot of this will generally depend on how aggressive and exclusive the worship of their pantheon of the dominant group is.
    Don;t forget that the clergy have always had a strong hold on a population and they would be unwilling to give up such sway and power to rival gods. Priests of Procan are not going to be fond of rival priests of Xerbo stealing their income. So during the early conquering stages it is likely that some of the aggresison would have been religionbased - and rival faiths actively fought off and possibly only still exist in a very minor or underground way.

    There are so many other factors to take in to account though...how aggressive or accepting is the deity themself...would their clergy be as tolerant as their deity? how bothered would Procan be about losing followers in Keoland if he had dominance in all Great Kingdom lands? Bothered enough to go to a lot of effort to fight for more worshippers?

    WHen assigning deities to a land I look at the ethnic makeup and see if there is a niche for such a deity...how many nature or sea gods does it make sense to follow...commoners are poor - would you make an offering to both Procan and Xerbo for good fishing or safe sea voyage. A church still needs income like a business to survive - could two similar churches survive economically if their revenue is split in half?

    Okay I had better end there - sorry for the long post!
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:06 am  

    The US example you give is rather misleading. For one thing, the US has only been around 1/5th as long as Keoland, for instance. Secondly, the cultural differences between between Americans of different ethnic backgrounds tend to be minor unless they are recent immigrants or living in a community with a continuous supply of immigrants from the homeland.

    As it says in the LGG (reiterating what was said in early versions): "Unmixed human races exist in several enclaves, but for the most part the Suel, Flan, and Oeridians have mixed to form a variety of blended types. Race is given little importance by intelligent folk, particularly in the central lands though some royal courts promote particular racial types."

    The point is not that ethnicity/culture is irrelevant. On the contrary, one of the nice things about GH compared to many fantasy worlds is precisely that it does get taken into consideration. But at this point in time, the ancient races of Suel, Oeridian, and Flan are not what most folks think of when identifying themselves. They are going to say "I am Keoish" or "I am Velunese", not "I am Suel" or "I am Flan" except in rare situations. The Velunese and Keoish look different and have different cultural and linguistic backgrounds which are what matters now.

    No one is sitting around doing the equivalent of saying "I am one part Vandal, two parts Goth, and 1 part Celt." I think the Flanaessi are at the point where they are saying "I am French/English/German" despite the fact that all three are different mixtures of the same ancient ethnic groups (germans and celts, mainly).

    Regarding religion, it is *generally* inherited. Even more so in the ancient world. It was quite common for one's patron diety to be determined by one's place of birth, not any matter of personal preference. Everyone from Bubastis had Bast as a patron. Athenians and Spartans had different patron gods. Or it could be defined by one's profession, though that was less common.

    GH seems to have a modern "pick your own religion" attitude, though that may be a case of imputing the characteristics of PCs falsely onto the society as a whole. Perhaps everyone from Flen is a Xerboan first and foremost, while those of Cryllor honor Kord best. In which case, you may have lots of families that have inherited the Old Faith, yet are negligibly Flan in ethnicity, having intermarried extensively with the newcomers.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:18 am  

    Well, extreme examples are not representative of the general view. I did say that cultural pantheons would tend to be worshipped by those of that culture in preference to others, with lots of exceptions in very culturally mixed areas.

    As has been said, comparing Oeridians, Suel, Baklunish and Flan is not remotely similar to comparing different Europeans. Looking at the houses of Keoland for instance. They are all Keoish, but call a Neheli a Rhola and you might offend somebody.

    As to state religions and churches of the state gods where all gods ware worshiped at a single church/altar, I cannot think of one instance where this is the case. The only thing remotely similar I can think of is a church with one main god, and with minor shrines to the other gods in the same pantheon. The one specific case is regarding Velnius and the other four Oeridian wind gods, but once again they are not only all of the same pantheon, but literally related. Celestian and Fharlanghn are known to often share temples, but once again they are not only of the same pantheon but brothers as well.

    The one instance I could think of this as being acceptable is for a community that worships many gods, but that only has one church, chooses to venerate different gods within that single church building on the holy days that pertain to each specific god. the church would have small shrines dedicated to each god, and perhaps different altar cloths and other regalia for each god that would be put in the place of prominence according to which god was being venerated on that particular day. Even still, offerings might be mad to the group as a whole, so as not to offend any particular god of course. Is this the norm? Not by all accounts I am aware of. No city map I have seen shows the Church of All the Gods, but rather shows locations for the churches, chapels, shrines of each god individually.

    I could see the Scarlet Brotherhood worshipping multiple deities in a single location too, with all(or most) of the Suel pantheon represented in some way, though with certain deities being in a place of prominence.

    Veluna has its College of Bishops, but this is not a temple of many gods but a gathering of temple leaders. Each faith has its own church, yet the hierarchy of acceptable faiths are welcomed into the College of Bishops. Rao(Patron deity of Veluna) is just nice that way, wanting everybody to just get along. The College of Bishops is probably one of the few (if not only) places in the Flanaess where clerics of Tritherion, Pholtus, and St. Cuthbert sit together in relative peace. There certainly is no single church where the clerics of these three deities all preach simultaneously. It could have happened only once, but of course the place was torn down by all those gathered there as the sermons of each group or clerics incited a massed riot among all; the authorities were called in, the wisdom of the endeavor was questioned, lots of fines were imposed, and an edict was issued that such a gathering would never, EVER happen again! Happy

    With all the examples of individual churches for each deity in every product, almost without exception, there is little evidence to back up state churches as the norm; quite the contrary.
    Getting back to the Old Faith, while I have said that I view it mostly as a Flan institution, there of course needs to be room for non-Flan nature deities and, after a bit more reading, that is what I have found the explanation to be. While the majority of the Old Faith is Flan and based around a cult of the Oerth Mother Beory, other nature deities are included as well; many of these others being non-Flan nature deities. I imagine the Old Faith would have less Flan influences in areas with an influx of non-Flan nature deity worshipers. As far as the druidic hierarchy goes, this makes for some interesting clashes I would think, particularly among the Old Faith followers of Obad-hai and Ehlonna. Some of those duels of ascension could be reminiscent of Jerry Springer. As the Old Faith has not been very well defined, so I have found, it is up to each dm to decide how it works. Are all the Flan deities given a place in the Old Faith, or just the ones that are blatantly nature deities? How do the other gods fit into the Old Faith in relation to Beory who the Old Faith is centered around? These are some good questions for the "Closing the Circle: The Old Faith" thread certainly.

    While I am not saying that Mayaheine is the “Savior of the Flan”, or should even be portrayed that way, I am just saying that aiding the Flan also makes for a good reason why she was brought forth from elsewhere and elevated as she was. Pelor has lots of followers (of all cultural types) in the central Flanaess, but the Flan are also on the receiving end of a whoopin’ during the Greyhawk Wars as well, so there are two very good reasons for Pelor to do what he. The Rovers were all but wiped out, but not quite because the attentions of their killers were diverted elsewhere at just the right time. Mayaheine was not among the Rovers, but her actions indirectly saved them from complete annihilation. The Rovers were a terrible sacrifice for Pelor to make, but if the central nations of Weal fell to Iuz, the annihilation of the Rovers would be all but guaranteed.

    Is Mayaheine destined to be relegated to being a Heironeous wannabe whose main credo is "Pelor's da MAN!!!"? I would hope not. I have yet to see much ruminating over what Mayaheine actually represents, what her faith is like, etc. Mayaheine needs a bit of expansion, as do all the faiths of the deities in my opinion. We have a book on gods with their stats, but little info on what the faiths of those gods are like, where they have there largest followings, what quirky rituals do they have, etc. There is a bit of this information out there on some of the gods, but even that is very deficient and gives no overall impression of what the faiths are like, instead relying on portfolio descriptions that are just so many sound bites. Mayaheine’s LGG entry is sadly lacking in details on what makes her and her faith interesting, as are most of the other entries for the gods. I understand the space limitations, and this of course is a good reason to present more detailed material on the deities in Dragon magazine. It looks like Mayaheine will be passed over though, so we all might as well start digging into her.

    Anybody want to volunteer to do an article on Mayaheine for Oerth Journal? Anybody?
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:31 am  

    Mayaheine and Heironious are only superficially similar. Once you scratch the surface of either, you have very different stances and faiths.

    Firstly, in no way is Heironious a defensive god in the way that Mayaheine is. Heironious is about war and conquest. He's "once more into the breach" where Mayaheine is "hold the line, no matter the cost". The only way he differs from his half-brother is the methods he uses to achieve his end - victory. As our home group was discussing over coffee yesterday - when they're in mid-swing about to land a killing blow, there's zero difference between Heironious and Hextor. Both love war - but Mayaheine does not. She prepares for it, knowing that it will come - but she takes no pleasure in it. Mayaheine is all about defending the innocent (as opposed to sparing the innocent, as Heironious would do). She's the shield, where Heironious is the axe.

    As to whether the different races would be relevent catagories at the end of the 5th century CY - I'd say yes and no - but more no than yes.

    Across most of the Central Flanaess - the three races are so comingled that any generalisation is likely to be fairly innaccuarate. For example, a blonde Dyverese and a blonde Grayhawker are more likely to identify with their cities (and the rivalry between them) than feel common cause because of the Suel ancestry they likely share. Equally, a brown haired man in Trigol will identify with his blonde cousin from Brotton (or even Nellix) before he'd feel common cause with a fellow "Oerid" from Curtullen, Mowbrenn or Rel Mord.

    That said, the realms of the Flanaess do remember their history and their ancestry as part of their ethnic identity. The people of the Urnsts (esp. the Duchy) will celebrate their Suel ancestry and the worship of Suel gods will be more common there than, say, in parts of Nyrond or Aerdy. Equally, former vassals of Aerdy - esp. Veluna, Furyondy and Nyrond will recognise their common Oerid heritage. Even there, the Vollar would think themselves distinct somewhat from the Eastern Oerid nobility of parts of Furyondy and the Nehron/Aerdi peoples of Nyrond. Distinctions of race would also be more important among the highborn than commoners - esp. in places like the Urnsts, perhaps Keoland or Onnwal. However, in all these places, dark haired sons of Oerid houses have intermarried with blonde haired daughters of Suel nobles to the point where the distinctions are largely cultural, rather than real.

    However, there'd also be a perceived split along the lines of the two great empires of the first, second and third centuries - the Great Kingdom and Keoland. That's at least as significant distinction in the humans of the Flanaess as Oerid, Suel and Flan.

    On the fringes of the two empires, things begin to get less mixed. There are obvious distinctions between the peoples of the main Flan enclaves - Geoff, the Arapahi, Stonehold (Coltens) and Tenh/Pale - but even there some mixing has occured (Suel/Oerids in Geoff, Bakluni/Oerids in the Rovers, Oerids in the Stonehold and Tenh). Equally, the Thillonrians and the Shari are purer Suel stock than the Suel of Keoland or Urnst (and significantly more than those with muddy blonde hair in Sunndi, Onnwal and Naerie), but a Rel Astran is more likely to call a Schnai a smelly barbarian as he is to call him a Suel barbarian.

    In short, the three races are probably less important a distinction than we might think, though they will lend a flavour to the culture and the faiths followed in particular parts of the Flanaess. However, there are also common gods are popular with people of all descents. They've mingled and spread and blurred just like the three races over the past 1000 years.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:44 am  

    Wolfling wrote:

    The Nightworld of Vlad Tolenkov...a sunless world where plant life is only sustained by ancient magics. The vampire Vlad has been recruited by Lolth and is content on harrying the peoples of this Nightworld. It would make an interesting idea for Mayaheine to come from a sunless world..maybe she managed to bring sunlight into the world ending Vlad's reign and ending Lolth's threat and this is tied into the sun god Pelor somehow

    In the appendices ar ementioned a few others...

    a world of clouds and floating castles...a sun god would maybe be quite important in such a land.

    and finally our own Earth is mentioned as a possible plane to visit - how very Dungeons & Dragons cartoon. Maybe Mayaheine is one of you lot's mum? Cool


    Yeah I like the idea that Pelor plucked Mayaheine from a material plane that is basically bereft of the Sun and Pelor has lost all stake in. It sort of gives larger credence to her portfolio of protection and also why she considers herself so much in Pelor's grace.

    There certainly seems to be a lot here to work with. If anything Mayaheine could be one of the more interesting deities of the Flanaess.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:12 am  

    Lassiviren wrote:
    Yeah I like the idea that Pelor plucked Mayaheine from a material plane that is basically bereft of the Sun and Pelor has lost all stake in. It sort of gives larger credence to her portfolio of protection and also why she considers herself so much in Pelor's grace.


    Although, making her the sole survivor of a dead world has the odd side-effect of giving her essentially the same origin story that Superman has.

    Raised by humble Yeoman farmers, Mayaheine Zor-El is in truth the Last Daughter of Krypton, blessed with extraordinary powers to protect Truth, Justice, and the Yeomanry Way.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 12:03 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:


    As has been said, comparing Oeridians, Suel, Baklunish and Flan is not remotely similar to comparing different Europeans. Looking at the houses of Keoland for instance. They are all Keoish, but call a Neheli a Rhola and you might offend somebody.

    As to state religions and churches of the state gods where all gods ware worshiped at a single church/altar, I cannot think of one instance where this is the case.
    *snips long rebuttal to a point no one was making*

    I'm not sure what your point in the first section is. The Neheli and Rhola are two different clans. Both were Suel and now both are Keoish. That's more like mixing up Plantagenets and Tudors than confusing French and English.

    I also can't think of a single case of state religions where all the gods were worshipped at the same altar. I'm sure there are some real world examples, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. If you are referring to my sidebar about 'city patron gods', then you missed my point. The city of Flen has Xerbo as a patron. Xerbo's festivals are the best attended and most important to the city. But other gods do have temples and some of them get their festivals on the city calendar as holidays. But everyone born in Flen knows that Xerbo is their main man in the heavens. He looks after them in ways other gods won't.

    I am not saying that is how GH faiths work. The Xerbo/Flen comment is the only example I can think of that even implies such a thing for the Flanaess. And its certainly not explicit that that is what it means. But that is by far the most common way people get their 'main' faith in polytheistic faiths in the real world, with profession being a distant second. The D&D 'marketplace of the gods' is pretty atypical. Not entirely unheard of, mind you, but not common.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:53 pm  

    As to extra info on Mayaheine I found that the Mayaheine sidebar in the latest Dragon on Pelor, was nearly word for word copied out of the LGG. Nice work SKR! Holian's Paladins article has just as much if not more additional info on her religion.

    As a side thought, in the Thursday chat the other night that Rasgon referred to a while back, Gary Holian made mention of some details he left out of that article. Primarily of wanting to make her part of the Whiteguard, a group of goody good plane travelling heroes and quasi-deities who (i think) are tied to Pelor mainly. St Bane, the greatest undead hunter of all time and others would be among them.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:30 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    Primarily of wanting to make her part of the Whiteguard, a group of goody good plane travelling heroes and quasi-deities who (i think) are tied to Pelor mainly. St Bane, the greatest undead hunter of all time and others would be among them.


    Ewww. I am so glad that didn't make it into the final draft. More back story than a cop out like "paladin from another plane" would be nice, but that's certainly not the route I'd go.

    More myths and legends about all the gods and saints would be quite nice to have, but making them into plane travelling adventuring parties is really really not what I want to see.
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    Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:32 pm  

    Voramaerin: What I meant by the Keoland clan remarks is something to the effect that if an ignorant outsider said to a Keoish fellow "You must be one of them Neheli.", and the fellow was Rhola then he might be offended. One might compare this to calling a Scotsman “English”. It doesn't go down as well as a pint of Guinness might. Wink Wink The point is that comparisons between Suel, Flan, Baklunish, and Oeridians are not as superficial as in the Keoish clans example. The various races have become mixed, but not to such an exent that that there is no sense of racial identity whatsoever. There would be a tendency to favor one’s prominent racial pantheon and cultural practices (with lots of exceptions in mixed areas). That is all. Nothing drastic, nothing cut-and-dried, just tendencies.

    As to villages, towns, or even cities having a patron god, that seems normal enough to me. Seaside locales that are dependent on the sea for their livelihood will in particular to prone to this practice, as would any other community in a similar situation. I don’t think I contradicted this idea. I usually get into “eloquence & clarity” on the second draft of most of my writing, but such is not always the case with one-off posts. I’ll try to do better. ;)

    ***

    When I mentioned the Demonweb worlds, I didn't necessarily mean one that was listed in the module, but one does stand out to me. The Nightworld is an odd choice I think, and could be viewed as a darker sort of Ravenloft, or could even be a part of Ravenloft. It would certainly be easy to place there. The Nightworld might have never known the sun whatsoever, so Pelor might be a non-entity there. Pelor never lost any influence in the Nightworld because he never had a real presence there in the first place. You could of course just create an entirely different world accessed through a gate in the Demonweb, or elsewhere for that matter. The world portals make for an interesting option though, as to me they are such an interesting feature of the Demonweb.

    As to Mayaheine’s purpose of defense vs. offense, this still doesn’t say much about her other than to give her the slogan “Worship Mayaheine! She’s just like Heironeous, only defensive!” So she’s similar to Heironeous, only defensive, but that doesn’t really say much about what really makes Mayaheine unique. This kind of reminds me of a Simpson’s episode where there is a “new” popular doll is for sale. The “new’ doll is exactly the same as the old one with the exception that it has a new hat!

    Somewhere is Furyondy…

    Yokel 1: “Wow! There’s a statue of a new goddess called Mayaheine in the town square!”
    Yokel 2: “Isn’t that just a copy of the Heironeous statue, but with longer hair and carrying a shield instead of an axe?”
    Yokel 1: “But she has long hair and a new shield! I must worship her!”

    Happy Wink

    While comparisons are going to be inevitable at this point, what is it that really makes Mayaheine and her religion truly unique? Her being defensive instead of offensive, and coming from another prime is but the beginning of things. Linking Mayaheine to the Whiteguard merely links her to a group of like-minded deities and servants whose goal is to keep extra-planar nasties from interfering in the lives of good folk, but it doesn’t really say anything specific about Mayaheine. Being a defensive martial deity, is Mayaheine a master of fortifications and defensive strategy? Do siege engineers pay homage to her right along side warriors? Do her temples function as schools that instruct commanders and engineers in defensive strategy and structures? What rituals do they practice? These are just a few possibilities to mull over.

    What are some other ideas that will help make Mayaheine more unique?
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:49 am  

    Sure, it matters in certain perceptions. Just like the English are sometimes called "anglo-saxons" still, even though they really are no such thing.

    I think its fair to say that we'll just have to agree to disagree about the degree of racial intermixture that's gone on in the central Flanaess. I think the Suel of Vulkar (sp?) and the Oeridians of Thalos would look at any of the Flanaessi and fail to recognize them as the same race. They are completely mixed. Just like the French, English, and Germans are all 'germano-celts' ethnically, yet have fairly distinct cultures.

    Religious tendencies may go with that, except I just don't think there are meaningful pockets of Suel or Flan in the territories of the Great Kingdom to make that sensible.

    And we don't really know anything about what the Oeridians did in terms of religious persecution when they destroyed pretty much everything in their path. Apparently the Vollar adopted local deities (Rao, et al), but the Aerdy didn't seem to do so at all. The Keogh seem to have brought the War Twins, but otherwise most of the Keoish dieties seem to be Suel. Except that the Sheldomar does have have some surviving Flan remnants to make the Old Faith meaningful.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:55 am  

    I think you're understating the difference in defensive vs offensive. It's a pretty big gulf in mindsets.

    Heironious fights because he loves to.
    Mayaheine fights because she has to.

    For Mayaheine, battle is what she must do to protect the innocent (this reminds me of a line from the Song of Ice and Fire, I think - "those without swords may still die upon them").
    For Heironious, battle is something he does for its own sake.

    M. would have some followers among sappers and defensive engineers - though that's a profession that's been more properly cornered by Daern.
    I'd see Mayaheine as being more the gal on the walls than the gal who built them.

    M. would be more in the mould of the Knights Hospitaller - providing care and protection to the innocent in a siege, for example (this ties in with the healing aspects of Pelor too). In contrast, Heironious is more in the mould of the Teutonic Knights - boldly going to conquer the heathen or slay the enemies of the church or the realm.

    If you want to break this down to the mindset of followers - I've always seen Heironians (esp. in Nyrond) as being fairly hidebound, pompous, strongly tied to the nobility, though generally good people when push comes to an axe in the forehead. They'd be eager for the heroic sally into the jaws of the enemy, or in calling out enemy champions to do single combat with them before the walls.

    Mayaheniens, on the other hand, would be of humbler origins and bearing, more concerned with practicalities than status and valour - ensuring the watches are set, that reserves are deployed, that the smallfolk are protected and have enough water and food. Not for them reckless sallyings forth, unless it was absolutely necessary to disrupt the siegeworks of the enemy. Better to hold the line, bolster the gates, have fall back positions prepared. If the foe breaks the gate, its the Shieldmaiden's followers that are the first in the charge to retake them.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:07 am  

    Woesinger wrote:


    (this reminds me of a line from the Song of Ice and Fire, I think - "those without swords may still die upon them").


    Its also quoted by Eowyn in The Two Towers movie. "The women of this land learned long ago that those without swords can still die upon them."
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:07 am  

    Actually - that's where it's from.
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    Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:46 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    Although, making her the sole survivor of a dead world has the odd side-effect of giving her essentially the same origin story that Superman has.

    Raised by humble Yeoman farmers, Mayaheine Zor-El is in truth the Last Daughter of Krypton, blessed with extraordinary powers to protect Truth, Justice, and the Yeomanry Way.


    Smile

    Yes, the sole 'living' survivor of an undead world. The final days could be very similar to Dawn of the Dead with Pelor worshippers versus hordes of vampire spawn.
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    Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:48 pm  

    Although I study race, I'm going to pass on that part of recent discussions except to state that IMC there are no racial ability bonuses or penalties for any human character and that the regional feats of the FR campaign setting intrigue me.

    If a new GH sourcebook was published, I think I'd want that level of detail. Other game products that have attempted to model human ethnic / cultural diversity include Privateer Press's Iron Kingdoms Character Guide and Lock and Load: Iron Kingdoms Character Primer. None of them are perfect, but I think they point the way for folks interested in representing that level / dimension of a roleplaying character. Of course, they raise the problem of specifying such for non-human characters too. (I've never read Kalamar products, so I don't know how / if they addressed this issue.)

    Regarding the Whiteguard, from the little I've heard, they're not a plane traveling adventuring party but rather comprised of many of Oerth's quasi-deities (who tend to be planar travelers). Their focus / self-imposed charge is to protect Oerth from demons, devils, and daemons.

    Unfortunately, they seem to have failed significantly. I'd never heard them particularly attached to Pelor but may be confusing them with the Lords of the Gloaming, another group that Gary Holian mentions from time to time (and may have been mentioned in a Gord the Rogue novel).
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    Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:02 pm  

    mtg wrote:
    Regarding the Whiteguard, from the little I've heard, they're not a plane traveling adventuring party but rather comprised of many of Oerth's quasi-deities (who tend to be planar travelers). Their focus / self-imposed charge is to protect Oerth from demons, devils, and daemons.

    Unfortunately, they seem to have failed significantly. I'd never heard them particularly attached to Pelor but may be confusing them with the Lords of the Gloaming, another group that Gary Holian mentions from time to time


    The Whiteguard are from Dragon #79's "Setting Saintly Standards." They're mentioned only off-handedly, as an organization that one Hainard, foe of St. Kargoth, belonged to. Gary Holian interprets them as a good-aligned adventuring party including figures like St. Bane and Mayaheine.

    The Lords of the Gloaming are their neutral equivalents.
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    Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:46 am  

    Hello! I'm new here, and I don't know anything about Greyhawk. I just started a homebrew campaign, and downloaded the list of Greyhawk pantheon for more info on the core deities, and found Mayaheine there.

    Mayaheine stroke me, because she's very similar to a deity I created in another homebrew pantheon: the Queen of Justice. In this world, there was an important war between Good and Evil. The Good side was about to loose, when a female human paladin gathered the remaining mortals, and won a few battles, to eventually save the day. She eventually ascended to Godhood. Although LG, she works hard to change traditions that give no benefits, earning the inamity of older gods; this quirk could very well be added to Mayaheine to make her more unique.

    The main difference between Mayaheine and the Queen of Justice is the setting. In my setting, many older "paladin" deities were killed, or loose their power due to failure or despair. But in Greyhawk, Pelor, Heironeous and St-Cuthbert are still healthy and shinning; Mayaheine would have to work hard to find a good niche...
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:00 am  

    Well, let's see what we've got here:

    1. Mayaheine come from another world.

    (So she is not Flan)

    2. Mayaheine was a paladin of Pelor.

    (So Pelor is worshipped there too)

    3. Meyaheine became a goddess, sponsored by her patron, Pelor.

    (Pelor's interests are not only involved with the Flanaess)

    We must consider the actual nature of the Gods: they are supreme beings that are not linked with one world only. Pelor maybe did not born in the Flanaess... I see these beings like some kind of "worlds travellers", who existed before Oerik was created. Maybe these bengs were mortals... millions of years ago... we cannot say that... what we now call "pantheon" is like a family... but it could also be a "tribe" of Gods coming from a unique outer world... the deities of the Flan are similar each others because of their interestin nature... and this could be a consequence of their native world...
    well... we cannot say that, but we must face these kind of problems with the idea that Oerik is not the central part of the multiverse... in the mind of the gods...
    So Mayaheine could simply come from another world, maybe called by Pelor to help him against the evil forces... Maybe in this far world everybody know of the existence of Oerik... maybe is a world where everyone has the powers of the gods... and its inhabitants have worshippers in thousands of others world of the multiverse... MAYBE IS THE WORLDS OF THE GODS... welll...
    ...
    Maybe...
    ...
    Confused
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 5:05 pm  

    Morka, welcome and nice correlation of Mayaheine in your campaign.

    Eldiel, thats a pretty wacky idea for sure. A planet of gods. It sounds torn right out of a comic book. The Eternals, or the New Gods or something... Wink
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    Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:37 pm  

    The idea that Mayaheine is a warrior who comes from a world lost and destroyed suggests that there might be something salvageable from the wreckage. Maybe she's the patroness of people who have lost a great deal through circumstances beyond their control, and who struggle to cope with their loss? She could be the patron of those people, her worshippers protecting them and helping them through their losses. They could either be grief counselors or vigilant warriors, righting wrongs, more inclined with helping orphaned children find new homes, or rescuing young women kidnapped by bandits who are about to be sold to brothels, or protecting a community of halflings that has suffered ravages from a landshark and helping them get back on their feet, defending them against ogres who might see the homeless hobniz as an easy meal.

    As such, I think Mayaheine works best in a two-pronged approach-a benevolent protector of those who have suffered unjustly, particularly in helping them get back on their feet, and also a goddess someone can turn to after suffering tremendous loss and pain. For the Flan this has an extra layer: I imagine them seeing Mayaheine as the daughter of Pelor and Beory, created to help the Flan recoup their terrible losses since the Great Migrations, with their cultures, language and heritage having been so badly damaged by the new arrivals, whether intentionally or not. She is as close to a warrior-goddess as the Flan themselves might venerate from their own traditions, as opposed to incorporating a god like Hieroneous or Kord into their own traditions from cross-cultural contact with other races.

    Mayaheine might be venerated along with Rao in a place like Geoff or Veluna-here the Flan got on very well with the new human races, who treated them well enough and didn't trample all over them the way some other peoples did. She might also be invoked in healing or reconciliation ceremonies that are meant to heal old wounds between the old and new peoples, similar to the various ceremonies that aboriginal peoples in the Americas sometimes hold alongside non-Native groups. She's a guardian of both peoples, in a sense, and the bonds that have connected them through the centuries, having aspects of a hopeful future. Oeridians or Suel might view her as being connected to Rao or Trithereon in such a case, while elves view her as akin to Corellon Larethian and halflings consider her a human aspect of Yondalla.
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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 12:22 am  

    Just an idea on M's world of origin - I got the thought that she might have been the last warrior of light left there - who fought to the very end, only to be plucked from the doom of her world by Pelor for her unwavering devotion and fearlessness in the face of overwhelming odds. Perhaps the lords of darkness offered her a chance to join them at the last, but she refused - thereby opening the path to her apotheosis.

    It's also add an edge of rage and grief to her - having seen her her companions fall one by one and her own world destroyed, she's determined not to let the same thing happen to the Oerth. It also sows a seed of doubt and humanity in her heart: she failed once - she must not fail again.

    I kind of like the image of a single shining paladin of light standing resolute and unbowed while surrounded by sea of darkness...
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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 4:35 am  

    Happy

    Maybe I've got a lot of wacky ideas... Laughing .... read this one:

    Mayaheine IS Joan...
    Her native world is our Earth...

    Think about the similarities between Furyondy and Joan's France...
    Pelor's nature is very similar to christian God's...
    Joan died for her faith... that's her Apotheosis...


    About the PLANET OF THE GODS:

    It was a simply wacky idea (you were right!), but I wish we could talk about the real nature of the Gods... maybe in another topic... does someone agree?
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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:05 am  

    Just a clarification,

    The Whiteguard is not an adventuring group or party. They are a "sub-pantheon" of Good. A group of like-minded beings with a spark of the divine, none more powerful than demigod. They don't travel together, though on rare occasions they may cooperate, and they don't have an HQ. They are individuals. A majority have an association to Pelor, but that's cause he's greatest god of good in Greyhawk and sponsors the most proxies.

    IMC, the five most famous are St. Bane, Hainard, Johydee, Al'Akbar, and (lately arrived on Oerth), Mayaheine.

    Unlike the Gloaming Lords, they have no law-chaos tilt. Their concern is only goodness, protection of the weak, and desctruction of darkness, decay, and death.

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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 3:07 pm  

    Woesinger: That is exactly how I envision the incident surrounding Mayaheine's being taken from her world of origin. It is also the reason that I mentioned the world gates in the Demonweb, as one of those worlds showcases a final battle where the forces of light are destined to fall. I think that is the most appropriate of the Demonweb worlds for her to be from, and it isn't the Nightworld where no sun has ever risen.

    I chopped this section out of an earlier post, as I thought I might develop it, but here it is:

    "I think a better choice of the existing worlds mentioned in the Demonweb is the world of Maldev where Kandelspire is the last bastion of Good facing the massed legions of Lolth. They are doomed, but defend it to the bitter end. That seems a more fitting place for Mayaheine to have been spirited away from. Perhaps Mayaheine made the ultimate sacrifice by devotedly giving her life in the defense of Kandelspire’s doomed but just cause. Pelor was moved by her unfailing devotion and so whisked her away before death fully took her."

    The main reason I like this scenario is that it is a perfect way for a paladin to gloriously meet death head on.
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    Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:48 pm  

    Eldiel wrote:
    About the PLANET OF THE GODS:
    I wish we could talk about the real nature of the Gods... maybe in another topic... does someone agree?


    I'm always up for such topics, in fact mocking the nature of the gods is what my webcomic is all about!

    Back to Mayaheine specifically; I re-read the Sean Reynolds article on Pelor in Dragon 346, and found that he may have wrote one of his 'Three Myths' of Pelor to suit exactly what is being discussed on this thread:

    Gift of Eternal Light: This lengthy myth tells of a Pelorian kingdom set upon by mortal, undead, and demonic enemies. Years of battles damaged the land and killed many, but the kingdom's faith remained strong despite these losses. Although their enemies besieged them every night, each morning the sun rose, as Pelor's gift to the people of the world and promise that even in the darkest hour light will always drive it away. The myth finishes with a great battle that outlasted the night, and the sun's rays blasted the undead and broke the backs of the demons, giving victory to the faithful and allowing them to live in peace thereafter. This myth is unusual in that it says the first rays of dawn sunlight are the righteous spirits of the dead returning to the world to give comfort to the living-a statement founf in no other part of the Pelorian faith. Some claim it might be a late addition or a fragment of a revelation to the author.

    I'll let yall draw the comparisons to what has already been discussed.
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    Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:10 am  

    rasgon wrote:


    Although, making her the sole survivor of a dead world has the odd side-effect of giving her essentially the same origin story that Superman has.

    Raised by humble Yeoman farmers, Mayaheine Zor-El is in truth the Last Daughter of Krypton, blessed with extraordinary powers to protect Truth, Justice, and the Yeomanry Way.


    The parallel becomes spookier if one recalls that the Man of Steel owes all his powers to harnessed solar energy...
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