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    Canonfire :: View topic - Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update
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    Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 05, 2004
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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 2:37 pm  
    Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update

    With RJK's departure from Troll Lords Castle Zagyg project, EGG is going it alone with the help of Troll Lords and a group of "assistant" writers writing under EGG's direction.

    CZ will now be, it seems -

    1) Yggsburg hardcover (already released);
    2) 19 "modules" detailing Yggsburg and surrounds (no guess on how this material will see print - individually or as a collection); and
    3) Two boxed sets - one for the Castle Proper and one for the Dungeons (while Troll Lords has not fiirmly settled on this it seems the 8 hardback idea is now dead).

    Ghul may be able to add more info, if he is about. Or you can look here - http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=173387

    Confusingly, Troll Lords says CZ will be the ORIGINAL Castle Greyhawk of EGG's campaign but EGG seems to back off of that and seems to say it will be those parts "useful" to DMs or some such. I'm frankly confused as to the exact state of affairs.

    Anyway, I'm buying it as soon as I see it. YMMV.
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    GVD
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 05, 2006 11:02 pm  
    Re: Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update

    GVDammerung wrote:
    2) 19 "modules" detailing Yggsburg and surrounds (no guess on how this material will see print - individually or as a collection)


    Last I knew, the plan was to release these as ~48 page modules, slightly larger than Dark Chateau. (Don't forget that one!) Roughly half of the manuscripts had been turned in. I don't know how the current shake-up will affect that project.

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Confusingly, Troll Lords says CZ will be the ORIGINAL Castle Greyhawk of EGG's campaign but EGG seems to back off of that and seems to say it will be those parts "useful" to DMs or some such. I'm frankly confused as to the exact state of affairs.


    Naturally, the Trolls want to hype this product as much as possible. Gary has stated, though, that he is not interested in producing a "collectible" for posterity; he wants to create something that will be vital and useful to gamers. This was evidently the main point of contention between him and Rob, who favored releasing a less adulterated, "nostalgic" version of the original dungeons.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 27, 2001
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    From: Wollongong, Australia

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    Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:32 am  

    So... is that why Rob left? I know they had disagreements before, but I assumed that this would have all been worked out prior to starting the project.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:15 pm  
    Re: Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update

    DMPrata wrote:
    Gary has stated, though, that he is not interested in producing a "collectible" for posterity; he wants to create something that will be vital and useful to gamers. This was evidently the main point of contention between him and Rob, who favored releasing a less adulterated, "nostalgic" version of the original dungeons.


    This baffles me. A nostalgia product is the entire hook for the Castle, hence the name, and you would think it would be easier to prepare. Maybe EGG thinks that the original would not look good by today's standards? But hey, its HISTORY! He should not worry.
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    GVD
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    Joined: May 03, 2003
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    Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:35 pm  

    The contradictions between Chenault and Gygax's statements on that ENWorld thread baffle me.

    Chenault says 13 modules, Gygax says 18. Chenault says 2 box sets, Gygax says no way. Chenault says that CZ was to include material from RJK's "levels", Gygax says that wasn't the case.

    Moving on, this quote from Gygax is especially telling:
    Quote:
    For anyone fretting about Rob's levels not being in the CZ work, that is not an issue. They were never going to appear there, not were more than one or two of my originals. Ideas from the levels he contributed to my castle were to be done in the usable version, and some will be included in altered form in the CZ work that I am overseeing.


    The work he is overseeing...
    Of the 40 or 50 levels Chenault and Gygax are talking about, only 1 or 2 were going to be originals?

    More interesting and telling quotes:
    Quote:
    Gygax: The reason is beacuse the the level maps used in the original castle dungeons did not align properly, had many changes on them, and the encounter notes are one-liners, often scratched out as the monsters in the place were wiped out by PC parties. As I have often relayed, the adventures were extemporized by both Rob and myslef.


    Quote:
    Gygax (regarding Greyhawk city): there was never anything substantial for the city save a map that I drew which grew from one page to four...and has been lost it seems.


    From: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=171753

    Quote:
    Gygax (again, regarding maps of Greyhawk city): Sadly, no, as a detailed one was never done. I winged it from first a one-page map, then a general four-page version. The vast detailed map that was to be around 4' by 6' when completed was never finished





    [/quote]
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 29, 2001
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    From: Second Primordial Ooze on the Left

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    Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:05 pm  

    I would say...

    But... but... what about the "impending release" of the two massive City of Greyhawk and Castle Greyhawk products EGG announced way back in 1980 in Dragon Mag ("1981 at the lastest")?? Surely if they were coming so assuredly, he had actually not only worked on it, but completed most of it???.....

    Thats what I would say...

    However, not only am I not the least bit surprised, but its exactly what I suspected all along.

    Denis, aka "Maldin"
    =========================
    Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
    Loads of edition-independent Greyhawk goodness... maps, magic, mysteries, mechanics, and more!
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:17 pm  
    Re: Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update

    GVDammerung wrote:
    With RJK's departure from Troll Lords Castle Zagyg project, EGG is going it alone with the help of Troll Lords and a group of "assistant" writers writing under EGG's direction.


    Hello! As I have been keeping a close eye on this project, I'd indeed be happy to answer a few questions regarding this project as I understand it. First, I don't know of any assistant writers working under EGG's direction for Castle Zagyg proper; perhaps there is some confusion regarding those designers working on the Yggsburgh town module series.


    Quote:

    CZ will now be, it seems -

    1) Yggsburg hardcover (already released);


    Yes, and it is a fantastic book.

    Quote:

    2) 19 "modules" detailing Yggsburg and surrounds (no guess on how this material will see print - individually or as a collection); and


    Yes. There are 19 town modules and 5 suburbs modules in the series. These are each slated to be about 64 pages, including detailed maps that flesh out the entire town and its immediate surroundings. Whether they are released individually or all together at the same time, I do not know.

    Quote:

    3) Two boxed sets - one for the Castle Proper and one for the Dungeons (while Troll Lords has not fiirmly settled on this it seems the 8 hardback idea is now dead).


    To my knowledge, this has not been set in stone. It seems, however, that both Gary and the Trolls are leaning toward the boxed set format for Castle Zagyg

    Quote:

    Ghul may be able to add more info, if he is about. Or you can look here - http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=173387


    Hello. ;-)

    Quote:

    Confusingly, Troll Lords says CZ will be the ORIGINAL Castle Greyhawk of EGG's campaign but EGG seems to back off of that and seems to say it will be those parts "useful" to DMs or some such. I'm frankly confused as to the exact state of affairs.

    I think, and this is my opinion, that Gary is implying that his home campaign of the 70's, compared to those parts he's used for tournament play, were a changing entity over the years, often affected by the actions of past characters, such as Robilar.

    He has also mentioned that he made brief scribblings to note certain encounters way back then, and once those encounters were resolved, he would erase them or scribble over them. While there are a lot of folks who would like to see a coffee table-sized volume of those notes and old maps, Gary is not of the collector mentality. He wants to produce a work that folks can jump in and play with.

    So, he is taking, from what I understand, all those most classic of castle elements and writing them out, and working off all the old maps to string together one big coherent work that will include the classic material but also a fair amount of new material for use in game play.

    One thing he has mentioned many times over the years is that his home-brew adventures are not like his published adventures in many cases, so in order to make the castle fit for publication, there is a fair amount to be written and added to.

    This is, of course my opinion and my understanding of what is going on.

    Quote:

    Anyway, I'm buying it as soon as I see it. YMMV.


    Me too! ;)
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 26, 2001
    Posts: 171
    From: Pittsburgh

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    Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:19 pm  
    Re: Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update

    Quote:

    Confusingly, Troll Lords says CZ will be the ORIGINAL Castle Greyhawk of EGG's campaign but EGG seems to back off of that and seems to say it will be those parts "useful" to DMs or some such. I'm frankly confused as to the exact state of affairs.

    I can explain this one.
    Gary's home campaign started with his original version of the dungeon. RJK became co-DM, and the whole castle was redesigned and expanded. The CZ project was originally going to be the best parts of the later Gygax/Kuntz version of the dungeon cleaned up and organized for publication. Now that RJK has stepped down, Gary has decided to use the original, pre-RJK version of the dungeon for the project.

    Scott
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:07 am  
    Re: Castle (Greyhawk) Zagig Update

    Ghul wrote:
    First, I don't know of any assistant writers working under EGG's direction for Castle Zagyg proper; perhaps there is some confusion regarding those designers working on the Yggsburgh town module series.


    Gygax himself has been quite clear on this, he is preparing a style guide (setting bible as he calls it) and the actual writing of the dungeons will be done by the TLG people.

    ScottG wrote:
    The CZ project was originally going to be the best parts of the later Gygax/Kuntz version of the dungeon cleaned up and organized for publication. Now that RJK has stepped down, Gary has decided to use the original, pre-RJK version of the dungeon for the project.


    Unfortunately, Gygax's own statements contradict this. In the quotations that both Maldin and I have been citing, he states clearly that of the "50 or so" levels planned for CZ, only "a couple" of them are directly drawn from original levels, and none of them were going to be Rob's.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 22, 2006 1:40 am  

    For what it's worth, I think no statement in this respect should be taken too seriuosly right now. The Trolls have changed the announcements on CZ many times already - always reducing the amount of their future publications - which I think is good, because, in all honesty, the nice CZ is to read, I doubt it will be easy to play, with dungeons after dungeons after dungeons...
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:25 am  

    And now Gygax's latest comments on the TLG forum put the next CZ product at sometime next summer, or beyond.

    Beginning to look a lot like vaporware Laughing
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 12, 2006 8:54 am  

    chatdemon wrote:
    And now Gygax's latest comments on the TLG forum put the next CZ product at sometime next summer, or beyond.

    Beginning to look a lot like vaporware Laughing


    Unfortunately, this does not bode well for the CZ project. However, the Trolls have a goodly portion of EGG's development of CZ in-hand as submitted work. I will imagine that, if matters should head substantially south, the Trolls could buff (with or without a ghost writer) what they have and go to press with another expansion(s). Hopefully, EGG will be able to see matters to a conclusion in a reasonably timely manner.

    On that last score, I am mindful that D****mire was believed vaporware for years until it showed up in 2006. I guess sometimes development time becomes substantially extended.

    Like D****mire, CZ will be ersatz Greyhawk, clearly inspired by the setting and intended to be understood as useful in the setting, but not purely Greyhawk, or even EGG's personal campaign version thereof. However, CZ is being written by and overseen by EGG, which puts CZ on a plateau far above other ersatz Greyhawk materials. CZ with EGG's participation and direction is a "By On Sight" product for me, as I imagine it is for many others. It may not be EGG's personal GH campaign but it remains EGG on GH as close as one is likely to come. That, for me, is worth waiting for.
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    GVD
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    Thu Oct 12, 2006 9:03 am  

    Well said, GVD. Health permitting, I think Mr. Gygax has a lot of gas left in the tank when it comes to creativity.

    --Ghul
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    Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:11 am  

    Yeah, well said, GVD. The only thing is just - well, CZ is excellent to read. But it will take a decade until the series is complete enough to be played as more than a setting for default adventures... Confused In any case, I want to have it...
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