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    Canonfire :: View topic - Eilistraee
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    Eilistraee
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:40 pm  
    Eilistraee

    The good drow goddess Eilistraee is from the Forgotten Realms. Was or is she part of the Greyhawk setting? I know that a lot of the FR stuff got clipped out of Greyhawk. Is this one of those moments? Has anyone integrated her into Greyhawk? Where would she even be worshipped?

    I get the impression that she was fashioned to make drow players happy.
    But, she doesn't quite seem right somehow.

    Any thots on her being involved in Greyhawk (pro or con) would be appreciated.

    please and thank you,
    Skech
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 3:39 pm  
    Re: Eilistraee

    Skech wrote:
    Was or is she part of the Greyhawk setting?


    No, she first appeared in the FR supplement Drow of the Underdark. She's never been mentioned in any Greyhawk or even generic source. Of course, she could show up in Greyhawk if you really wanted her to, but I can't think of a situation where she would be needed or add any benefit.

    Quote:
    I get the impression that she was fashioned to make drow players happy. But, she doesn't quite seem right somehow.


    I don't know why she was invented - probably to demonstrate that even drow aren't beyond redemption. It seems to me that there aren't enough good drow to justify a goddess who caters only to them, though. I'd rather see a god of good orcs, or winged beholders.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:32 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    She's never been mentioned in any Greyhawk or even generic source. Of course, she could show up in Greyhawk if you really wanted her to, but I can't think of a situation where she would be needed or add any benefit.


    While I note that she does appear in planescape (though if there's anything beyond the description of her realm in Alfheim, in Planess of Chaos, I dont recall) I agree for the most part. The fact that she doesn't even appear in 2e's Monster Mythology with (most) of the rest of the known drow deities suggests that she should remain in FR exclusively.

    However, if you really wanted to use her in GH without rewriting the whole Elven and Drow pantheons to justify her existence, you could rather easily make her a variant aspect of Sehanine that appeals to outcasts and other lost/fallen elves without the mischevious and sort of dark nature of Fenmarel. Perhaps Sehanine is starting to regret the elven schism wars of old and is trying to lure some of the drow, valley and other outcast elves back home. It's not canon by any stretch, but it might be an interesting plotline for a home game.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:40 pm  

    Doesn't a CN drow herodeity exists in World of Greyhawk whom portfolio includes drow renegades?

    It seems redundant to have both her and Eilistraee in WoG.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 5:44 pm  

    direrodent wrote:
    While I note that she does appear in planescape (though if there's anything beyond the description of her realm in Alfheim, in Planess of Chaos, I dont recall)


    Svartalfheim, actually. Planes of Chaos mentioned her as a rumored presence, but she wasn't definitively given the realm until later on. Those same sources (On Hallowed Ground and the execrable Warriors of Heaven) mention a lot of other FR-specific deities as well. What I meant is that she isn't presented as a Greyhawk or generic deity.

    Making her an aspect of Sehanine seems a decent idea.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:15 pm  

    I quite like Eilistraee as a goddess, but yeah, she's definitely a FR diety not a Greyhawk one.

    The original information about the drow in Greyhawk is in the Queen of SPiders campaign and whilst they are generally CE, descriptions of the city Erelhei-Cinlu do mention bands of outcast youths who have rebelled from their race's evil ways and are comprised of CN youths and half-drow...they haven't quite made it to CG yet though.

    I agree that there isn;t really a call for a specific deity of good drow in GH but there are a number of existing deities that could fulfill that role...

    In one of the descriptions of Celestian it is mentioned that evil creatures who favour darkness but have turned from evil often respect Celestian as the light of the stars is much more soothing to them than the glare of the surface world sun.

    Ehlonna / Ehlenestra would also make a possible alternative for Eilistraee

    Myrhiss - in my campaign i attribute her to being an Elven goddess who was adopted into Flan worship (she was originally given an origin of Common then later it was changed to Flan). Myrhiss could offer her love to those drow that wish to embrace it and turn from their cruel ways...

    Trithereon - CG god of liberation, individuality and freedom would make a good choice

    others could be worked into the role as well.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:21 pm  

    I've used her as a little or almost unknown deity. Aspect of Sehanine sounds really good.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:37 pm  

    Zinzerena is mentioned in the Living Greyhawk Journal (in Dragon #298) as a chaotic neutral hero-goddess of drow rebels. She also appears in Monster Mythology. She's explicitly not a Forgotten Realms goddess (as she's considered to be a guise of Lolth on that world), so she's actually Greyhawk-specific.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:28 am  

    Plus, the only god worsipped by drow in canon is Tharizdun, IIRC. Lolth is a demoness who somehow manages to grant clerical abilities, not a deity as certain FR authors attribute.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:32 am  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    Plus, the only god worsipped by drow in canon is Tharizdun, IIRC. Lolth is a demoness who somehow manages to grant clerical abilities, not a deity as certain FR authors attribute.


    feel free to prove me wrong but I disagree with this...I don;t recall anywhere stating that Tharizdun is the original / main deity of the drow. In the Queen of Spiders campaign a faction of drow led by the notorious Eclavdra worship an Elder Elemental God and the rest of the drow of Erelhei-Cinlu worship Lolth the Demon Queen of SPiders. This early information on Lolth describes describes her as ;

    "The demoness Lolth is a very powerful and feared demon Lord...Little is known about her aims, and only the fact that the drow worship of Lolth brings her to the Prime Material Plane..."

    However later in the description of her powers is this description;

    "As a lesser goddess of the Greyhawk Campaign, Lolth has certain attributes common to all divine beings."

    Some other interesting canon facts are;

    "Lolth: This is not the true name of the demoness"

    "There dwells a race deep within the recesses of the earth, a race that shuns the light of day and worship fell beings such as the spider-demon Lolth. This adventure revolves around the machinations and plots of the largest drow community in the Crystalmist Mountains, the city of Erelhei-Cinlu. This great drow city, the largest of its type, is located beneath the Hellfurnaces. ...A seperate clerical organisation, worshipping the spider-demoness Lolth, maintains a loose control over all....Such have been the way things have been in Erelhei-Cinlu for centuries. The drow clergy have encouraged the worship of the spider-demoness Lolth, and the demoness gained great power in this plane as a result."

    So basically, Lolth is a demon but she has gained the powers of a lesser goddess through the worship of the drow and in particular those of Erelhei-Cinlu. She has been worshipped by the Cinlu drow for centuries...how many centuries exactly is vague - so it is possible they worshipped other powers before. It is also clear that Lolth and this ELder Elemental God aren't the only fell powers worshipped by the drow throughout the Under Oerth.

    The Elder Elemental God is THE EEG it is AN EEG. This indicates that there were others. The specific deity that Eclavdra has turned to is never named but he is represented by a large tentacled mass with a squid-like beak...with an ongoing theme of tentacles and purple and mauve. There is a large secret temple to this EEG near to Eclavadra's estates in Erelhei-Cinlu. It is not stated how long ago she turned to the worship of this god to indicate whether or not it had always been there or if Eclavdra had this temple built. It is possible that this EEG was worshipped by the drow prior to the centuries old introduction of Lolth's worship.

    One final note is an interesting fact that Greyhawk had the version of Drizz't long before FR!...

    Nilonim...a dissident drow captured in Erelhei-Cinlu where he led a band of rebels attempting to overthrow noble rule. He has a slight but terrible tendency towards good deeds. (Fighter/Magic User 4/4, N(G) )

    Sorry this post kind of went at a tangent to Eilistraee...but it does open up the posibility for other drow worshipped deities...
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:50 am  

    All the demonlords had the powers of a lesser god in the olden days. Lolth, Yeenoghu, and so on. It wasn't something unique to Lolth. And the drow are mentioned as worshipping a variety of demonlords, Lolth in particular.
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:46 am  

    The Gord books make much of Graz'zt having drow cultists, which makes a lot of sense as he looks something like a drow, and drow have the "hot monster chick" vibe he looks for in followers.

    I've also done some development on drow cultists of Orcus and Baphomet.

    The drow who dwell beneath Greyhawk City worship elemental forces.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:04 am  

    And the Elder Elemental God or Eye is a front for Tharizdun. (Any help with the reference?)

    Sorry, I'm just a little tired of all this Drow are the agents/worshippers of Lolth alone claptrap. Thank you Bob Salivatoring.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:25 am  

    That's sort of the way it is in the FR. And far more people are familiar with the FR version of the drow than with the GH version. But neither the drow nor Lolth operate in the same way in GH. Lolth has human followers (including human male priests such as Lareth) and she has male drow priests (the merchant class priests of Erelhei-Cinlu, for example).

    Lolth is dominant in Erelhei-Cinlu, but nothing in the source material indicates that she is exclusive to the race. In fact, quite the opposite with specific mentions in the drow write up of them worshipping other demonlords as well.
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 10:47 am  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    And the Elder Elemental God or Eye is a front for Tharizdun. (Any help with the reference?)


    Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil is the main source for that. It's been reiterated more recently in the Monster Manual IV.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:29 pm  

    yeah there is no evidence at all that the Elder Elemental God is Tharizdun. Like I posted before the Elder Elemental God is stated as AN not THE...there are more than one Elder Elemental God...

    hmmm - i did put in a bunch of canon quotes regarding the Lolth and also the EEG and the drow and the fact that Lolth is just one drow deity in my post above....continues to type to himself... Cool
    Master Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 8:44 pm  

    Well, I don't think the correct reading of the statement that the Eilservs worship "an" elder elemental god is to say there are multiple beings known as Elder Elemental Gods. I have always understood it to simply be a reflection of the fact that the PCs had never heard of this god. I don't think Elder Elemental God is actually the deity's name. I think its a description. Like saying that barbarian tribe worships an old war god. Old War God is not the deity's name.

    The Elder Elemental Eye is, afaik, a manifestation of this elder elemental god, not a distinct being.

    And the connection with Tharizdun is both specious and, imho, a really bad idea. Its certainly a very recent innovation in GH terms.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:44 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Well, I don't think the correct reading of the statement that the Eilservs worship "an" elder elemental god is to say there are multiple beings known as Elder Elemental Gods. I have always understood it to simply be a reflection of the fact that the PCs had never heard of this god. I don't think Elder Elemental God is actually the deity's name. I think its a description. Like saying that barbarian tribe worships an old war god. Old War God is not the deity's name.


    There are other elder elemental gods, At least according to EGG in OJ # 12. Two at least though they may really be the same god who has manifested on different worlds. So in a way there may only really be one elder elemental god. I think its SUPPOSED to be confusing. Shocked
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:16 pm  

    Vormaerin wrote:
    Well, I don't think the correct reading of the statement that the Eilservs worship "an" elder elemental god is to say there are multiple beings known as Elder Elemental Gods. I have always understood it to simply be a reflection of the fact that the PCs had never heard of this god. I don't think Elder Elemental God is actually the deity's name. I think its a description. Like saying that barbarian tribe worships an old war god. Old War God is not the deity's name.


    I think I have to disagree on this one for once as usually I tend to agree with your thoughts heh...I think that if there was only one EEG then it wouldn't have referred to 'an' EEG. Especially as this information appears in the DM background section. I think that in this case the information is as read...there are a number of EEGs.

    I do agree that EEG is not a specific name but a generic name for deities of a certain type or time. The fact that the name is capitalised Elder Elemental Gods rather than elder elemental gods indicates a little more formality into these elder deities.

    Moving away from canon to my own interpretaiton for the Queen of SPiders campaign i'm running...I have decided that the EEGs are the ancient deities of various non-human races who's worship was more pwoerful in the heyday of those races. All the deities have some kind of elemental connection....for example Blibdoopoolp is an Elder Elemental Goddess linked with water and was more powerful when the Kua-Toans where more powerful before the drow began winning their territory disputes with them...for Eclavdra I have hosen to use the name Ghaunadaur...which admittedly I have taken from the FR setting (I'm fairly sure there aare no GH referrences to this deity). When the PCs met Eclavdra i wanted her to have a specific name for the deity she worshipped or at least who she thinks she worships!

    I imagine the EEGs to all be either forgotten or remotely worshipped, many slumber fitfully due to lack of followers and sacrifices. All were perhaps powerful elemental beings who were raised to the ranks of divinity centuries and centuries ago....and most were worshipped by races such as the kua-toa, the troglodytes, lizardfolk perhaps...old races that may have once had great empires before the rise of humans and demi-humans.
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    Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:29 am  

    Since confusion and obfuscation are by necessity part and parcel to the worship of Tharizdun in Greyhawk, IMC Tharizdun is the Elder Elemental God of the Eilservs. Do they realize it? Probably not.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 24, 2006 9:39 pm  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    Since confusion and obfuscation are by necessity part and parcel to the worship of Tharizdun in Greyhawk, IMC Tharizdun is the Elder Elemental God of the Eilservs. Do they realize it? Probably not.


    Never mind the Eilservs, does the real Elder Elemental God realize that Tharizdun is pretending to be him pretending to be the Elder Elemental Eye? Confused
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:39 am  

    Wolfling wrote:
    yeah there is no evidence at all that the Elder Elemental God is Tharizdun. Like I posted before the Elder Elemental God is stated as AN not THE...there are more than one Elder Elemental God...


    Even in the original GDQ mods, I think Eclavdra was using a Tentacle Rod, which is an item that has only ever been associated with the (an?) Elder Elemental God and Tharizdun.

    In RToEE, we learn that Lareth was duped into believing that he was a priest of Lolth, which suggests a drow worshipping the Elder Elemental Eye (i.e. Tharizdun) had a hand in the deception.

    Not conclusive evidence, but enough circumstantial evidence for me!

    I see Tharizdun as Greyhawk's 'Cthulu-esque' deity, with visual traits inspired by the alien quality of the Far Realm and I would keep that origin in mind for any other Elder Elemental deities too. In my campaign it was the Vast Gate of the Elder Elves from the Gates of Firestorm Peak (which I added as part of the catacombs under White Plume Mountain) which brought Oerth to the attention of the Big T. So it is possible that some other being from the Far Realm also noticed Oerth around the same time but I prefer to keep it simple and say that worship of these 'deities' is just a front for Tharizdun.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:48 am  

    callmeAndydammit wrote:
    Since confusion and obfuscation are by necessity part and parcel to the worship of Tharizdun in Greyhawk, IMC Tharizdun is the Elder Elemental God of the Eilservs. Do they realize it? Probably not.


    IMC, I haven't worried much about who the REAL elder elemental gods were. The one that seduced Eclavdra away from Lloth, however, was not a real EEG, but GRAZ'ZT, using the EEG trappings. Only later, after the fall of the giants, did Eclavdra realize what she was really worshipping.

    For me, that allows the best reconciliation with the three or four different versions of Eclavdra that appear in the original GDQ, in ItE, and in the Gord novels. I don't know how this squares with the GDQ mega-module, since I haven't read that. I have about a two page post on this on the Greytalk archives, probably around 1996 or so...
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