IMO, the Maure Castle levels being published in Dungeon are simply the finest adventures for 3X published. They are dungeon crawls, but I do not laud them on that basis; IMC, I tend to avoid dungeon crawls. IMO, the Maure Castle adventures are the finest kind because they present highly developed and compelling mysteries that stand as a superscript to the nuts and bolts of the adventure, related to but standing apart from the pure adventures composed of encounters. There is, IMO, a rich context presented for the adventure that is as or more interesting than the adventure itself and which can generate further adventures. This context first fully matures in the latest installment and I hope will continue. If anyone has not picked up all of the Maure Castle installments in Dungeon, I heartily recommend them without reservation. That they are based on Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure and are penned by original Greyhawk co-DM, Rob Kunst, only serves to make them indespensible Greyhawk material of a kind unseen anywhere since the Living Greyhawk Gazateer. YMMV. But if it does . . . _________________ GVD
All that background and foreshadowing does nothing but constrict the options you have to expand the adventure. Anything you do with Maure Castle must always consider how the Seekers, Yeenoghu, Malcanthet, and the other major NPCs will react. Compared to the original, all this added material has done is take away the wide open potential of the location, and constrict it with a bunch of preambles.
One one hand, I enjoyed the adventures so far, to the point of going to the trouble of converting them for my basic d&d game.
On the other hand, I kind of agree with Sam. I'm not using them as maure castle, per se, but as expansions of another mega-dungeon I do use. The heavy level of "fluff" can be annoying. I suppose if you're using them as is, with no plans to customize or expand, this wont be an issue, and it isn't something that bothers me enough to ignore the adventures.
Honestly, except for the campaign workshop articles, which are pretty system generic most times, the maure castle articles are about the only thing I even read in most current Dungeons.
Well, I agree with all three... almost. I am not in the middle, like Chatdemon, rather I agree with both.
I think Sam's assesment is correct and dead on... except for me it does not matter. I have found plenty of other adventures that I can (and have) modified.
I agree with GVD's wholehearted endorsement of the adventure. I do run it in situ, and as presented, and it is my favorite Dungeon adventure ever.
So, if you are looking for an out of the box, play it as presented adventure... I dont think you can find a better one. If you want to morph it into something else... it is probably far too entwined to bother. However, the fact that the original author's EGG & RK authored the first levels, and RK did the later additions (I have heard it was due to a lack of time on EGGs part, not a schism, but I have no way of knowing) makes the whole thing more than palatable.
If every Dungeon adventure was done in this way, it would not be useful to far too many. However, if all of their adventures were of this quality, I would not care.
I would say I'm more in line with chatdemon on this, though leaning more to the "I like it as is" side of things. The original Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure stands out as one of the more interesting low-key lairs of evil in my campaign so far. I did soup it up a bit by populating some of the mostly empty dungeon level rooms though, but only slightly. The first expansion to the Adventure that appeared in Dungeon is a great follow-up to the original adventure, fleshing out more of the mystery that was/is Maure Castle. You can always downplay or remove altogether anything you don’t like anyways. The latest offering is a bit too puzzle-ish for my tastes, but even still it has some great elements to it, and overall I still give it a thumbs up.
The Seekers is really a newer development, and new developments almost always seek(no pun intended) to further legitimize themselves in the campaign setting through a connection to the old (the Seekers being linked to Eli Tomorast, Maure Castle, etc.). This is to be expected to some degree, but it can be overdone as well. Not everything needs to have some correlation to something that has come before, a feature of some later writing that makes me cringe as it seems more hackneyed than anything. Somebody probably has a list of things like this somewhere.
To me the Seekers are not really that much of a factor regarding Maure Castle. The relation between the two isn't necessary anyways. I just look on the newer Maure adventures as vehicle for introducing the Seekers into my campaign, if I want to.
I look forward to other Maure Castle adventures, or those related to Maure Castle. Maure Castle adventures need not all take place beneath the castle mind you. You might find a clue to another adventure locale in a Castle Maure encounter.
What I would really like to see is what could be the ultimate off-site Maure adventure: The Lost City of the Elders.
I wasn't trying to take sides; I was just pointing out a nuance that people seemed to be missing for lack of context.
Indeed.
As for the difference between extensive background in an adventure and the same for a setting, the assertion that it is somehow significant simply ignores the reality of the situation, as has also been touched on in the Saltmarsh thread. By having the smugglers and lizard men and the like appear in those adventures, the character of not just Saltmarsh, but the surrounding area, has been set. To have a follow up adventure that doesn't feature people with letters of marque roaming those waters, or lizardmen nearby in the Hool Marsh, or Sahuagin off the coast, or any of the other minor elements that appear in those three adventures, you are throwing away all the material that appears in the adventure. Or, taking the cynical viewpoint, you are being constrained by that material, and "forced" (by the Module Enforcement Division of the Gaming Police I guess) to take all of it into consideration.
I wasn't trying to take sides; I was just pointing out a nuance that people seemed to be missing for lack of context.
Duly noted. One man's nuance is another man's nuisance. And so it goes . . .
Suffice to say, I find RJK's Maure fluff fascinating stuff, even if I will admit it can be offputting in its profusion and uncertainty piled upon uncertainty. I may be proven wrong but I suspect if Maure continues in Dungeon there will never be a "solution" to all the leads and clues and hints. RJK will just keep adding layers for everyone revealed, or more. Which is fine by me because, eventually Maure Castle will run its course in Dungeon and then I will have all these threads to follow up. Even before that point, there is plenty to just play with; I especially like all the portraits, lots that will likely never be explored in print. And if one wishes to go by just the Fiendish Codex I Maure references, it is possible to "cap" the Maure mysteries in advance of further development by RJK. _________________ GVD
I stated a while ago that if Maure Castle was to be the addressed evry ear with new levels and more Fluff. That it will become overbearing and cause people such as myself to become disinterested in the whole Maure story plot.
A small article maybe to update things that had existed or recent changes as opposed to additional levels evry time Maure Castle appears in a Dungeon magazine is overkill.
Whether you believe that the adventures have been good or not you must agree. That most Gh fans I guess those I know of anyway. Tend to prefer a small amount of background and fill in the rest. Which of course you can do anyway. I just think other areas or places of GH can be revisited as opposed to constant attention on one dungeon.
However, the fact that the original author's EGG & RK authored the first levels, and RK did the later additions (I have heard it was due to a lack of time on EGGs part, not a schism, but I have no way of knowing) makes the whole thing more than palatable.
RJK wrote all of the original WG5, other than EGG's intro/preface. In the Dungeon 112 rewrite of MC, Gary's short story from Wargamer's Digest was provided, in lieu of the original intro/preface he wrote in WG5 (as well as to add some fun historical detail for the GH geek!).
Overall, I'm quite pleased with the new Maure Castle levels, though I can definitely see some of the complaints about taking a mostly-barebones module and filling it out too much. I like the Cult of the Purple Stone, for example, but I'm less keen on Tomorast's connection with the Seekers. Therefore, I ignore that :D
. . . I'm less keen on Tomorast's connection with the Seekers. Therefore, I ignore that :D
Same here. "The Seekers" just reeks of cheese to me. Maybe there could be a rival group - "The Searchers." And both's archrivals - "The Finders." Who would be allied with - "The Keepers." Thus giving rise to the old expression "Finders, Keepers," which sends a cold chill up every mage's spine, to say nothing of "The Silent Ones," who oppose all efforts of the Finders and Keepers, usually employing an ancient Suel relic called "Dibbs." But "Dibbs" doesn't always work against "Finders, Keepers." I learned everything I needed to know about Greyhawk's semi-secret societies in Kindergarden? Seems like. I smell cheese. _________________ GVD
@ Samwise: nothing written for GH is always worthy of a kow tow, regardless of its author, of course :D _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
. . . I'm less keen on Tomorast's connection with the Seekers. Therefore, I ignore that :D
Same here. "The Seekers" just reeks of cheese to me. Maybe there could be a rival group - "The Searchers." And both's archrivals - "The Finders." Who would be allied with - "The Keepers." Thus giving rise to the old expression "Finders, Keepers," which sends a cold chill up every mage's spine, to say nothing of "The Silent Ones," who oppose all efforts of the Finders and Keepers, usually employing an ancient Suel relic called "Dibbs." But "Dibbs" doesn't always work against "Finders, Keepers." I learned everything I needed to know about Greyhawk's semi-secret societies in Kindergarden? Seems like. I smell cheese.
You've forgotten the Losers and the Weepers. Or did you intend for those roles to be filled by the fans?
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One man's nuance is another man's nuisance. 
And so it goes . . .
I learned everything I needed to know about Greyhawk's semi-secret societies in Kindergarden? Seems like. 