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    Canonfire :: View topic - Furyondy & Keoland
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    Furyondy & Keoland
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Feb 01, 2005
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    Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:10 am  
    Furyondy & Keoland

    I have not found any specific answers to a question that I have, so I turn to the collective knowledge of canonfire to provide an answer:

    In general, what is the political relationship between Keoland and Furyondy, both in the past and (more importantly) in the present (CY 591)? Are they allies, friends, or rivals?

    The reason that I ask: a PC in my campaign is from a prominent royal house in Furyondy and is concerned that her current actions as an adventurer in Keoland may ignite a smoldering situation. She believes that she has discovered a secret that could be leading to civil war in Keoland. She wishes to avoid creating a possible international incident and has decided to withdraw from the remaining current adventure. She wishes to avoid embarrassing or dragging Furyondy into the mix inadvertently.

    Can you help me get a handle on the international political landscape, so that I may better address my players concerns?

    Thanks to you all in advance!
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 03, 2006 9:58 am  

    IMO -

    Furyondy would regard Keoland in guarded fashion. Neither allies nor rivals but not really neutral either. Furyondy defeated Keoland and its catspaws in the Short War, which Keoland started with the conivance of the Gran March under Commandant Berlykin. While Keoland did organize an Expeditionary Force that went north to assist Furyondy during the Greyhawk Wars, that force was substantially recalled before the fighting was finished. There would be a tendency in Furyondy to see Keoland as aggressive but ultimately weak and by some measure quitters or fair weather friends. Occupied as they are, however, Furyondy would not think long on Keoland in any regard. See this CF article for a look at the relationship as seen through the eyes of the Knights of the Hart and the Knights of the Watch - http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=551

    Keoland would regard Furyondy with a mix of resentment and chagrin. As a consequence of losing the Short War, Keoland lost Bissel and, for practical purposes, the Gran March. They have not forgotten this. On the flip side, Keoland is not proud of its conduct leading up to and during the Short War and has recognized a community of interest with Furyondy, ocassioning the participation in the Expeditionary Force during the Greyhawk Wars. Keoland's feelings are decidely mixed toward Furyondy but they hope for better relations overall. Ultimately, however, Keoland's interests are increasingly local and internal. Where Furyondy is looking north, Keoland is looking south.

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    GVD
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    Fri Nov 03, 2006 10:36 am  

    Probably the first thing to consider is the timeframe. The Short War ended over 150 years ago. In a real world comparison, it ended around the time of the Mexican-American War.
    Then consider that there hasn't been a border between the two countries in all that time, sort of like trying to reconcile Italian feelings towards Germany over their last pre-unification war with Austria.
    Then consider that Keoland is now on its second "dynasty" since then. (Well, it will be the second if Kimbertos is succeeded by someone he wants.) Now it's like another nation considering the US after the Republicans are displaced by the Democrats for 100 years, followed by a lone Independent.
    On the Furyondian side, you have their own imperial past that they rejected but may be turning back to.
    You have a string of increasingly weaker kings.
    You have the appearance of Iuz.
    You have the reappearance with Iuz.
    You have the Greyhawk Wars and the Great Northern Crusade.

    At most, the Short War is a historical footnote used for random political maneuvering. Otherwise both nations have little need to worry about faded events of more than a (human) lifetime ago, particularly given the more serious threats in their faces. Both would be more than happy to have a stable border in the Fals Gap region, even if it means trusting people their ancestors fought a war over Veluna with. And since said Velunese are a bunch of pansy peaceniks who want them to make nice and let bygones be bygones, they won't even feel a need to carry a torch for them.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 03, 2006 12:44 pm  

    Guys,

    Wow! That was really far better than anything I have found so far. Kudos to you both. I do appreciate it. Happy
    Adept Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:50 pm  

    Yes, a lot of this makes sense. Furyondy has much more important matters to deal with, most notably the evil empire on its northern doorstep. Keoland, for its part, fully deserves its reputation as a quitter, a loser, and a fair-weather friend...just ask Geoff and Sterich! Both countries are relatively neutral towards one another, however much their respective knighthoods might loathe each other.

    If civil war did erupt in Keoland, some of the southern nobles might be concerned at the war spilling north, but then they'd have to march through Veluna first to reach Nyrond...and the Knights of the Hart would need no prodding to contribute to Keoland's extremely long and extremely rich tradition of military cowardice and incompetence. Some wags in the provincial and royal courts would no doubt remark on the fact that Keoland actually has a chance of winning this war, since it's facing its own forces! Belvor and Thrommel will have the Furyondian ambassador give regular reports on the matter, but will otherwise sit on the sidelines, as ready to deal with whoever wins the civil war as loses it.

    Of course, given that Furyondy is decentralized (as EGG mentions in the 1983 boxed set), some of his provincial nobles might relish the chance to score points against their rivals in the rest of the provinces and the Crown. Who's to say some of them might not try to curry favor with whatever faction they judge will be the winner of the conflict, who could give leverage in their political maneuvers and give Belvor and Thrommel a major headache?

    How about the secular nobles of Veluna, or the demihuman lords? How will they react to this situation? Furyondy has ties to the dwarves of the Yatils...how will it react if the dwarves of that region feel they must intervene somehow to protect their own trading interests, for all that the dwarves are honest and good-natured folk? Does this PC have family ties to any human or demihuman clans that might be interested in getting involved in Keoland's nascent civil war? As an evil DM, you can arrange matters so she gets dragged into the affair one way or another. >:D

    Besides, what she does with the secret is as much important as what the secret is to begin with. If she lets King Kimbertos or Lashton know of someone plotting insurrection, she'll have made both powerful allies and enemies in the kingdom. And given Furyondy's decentralized nature, her own family or province might get mixed up in the affair, but that could just as easily be to their advantage. Chendl might not be involved, and Belvor is usually forced to tolerate his lords playing their own petty little power gamers-with all the arm-twisting he has to do to work out provisions for a standing army in case of war, or to keep them in line when dealing with Dyvers, Greyhawk, Veluna, Ket, Perrenland, the Urnst states, or the Uleks, and the many other demihuman kingdoms and lords out there, he's got to give them leeway in other matters.

    Heck, King Belvor and Prince Thrommel might actually be grateful for something that distracts the provinces and lets someone ELSE get the brunt of their attentions. Chendl would intervene if it seriously threatened Furyondy's diplomatic interests, but for now king and crown prince are probably content to wait and see what happens.
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 03, 2006 7:53 pm  

    CruelSummerLord wrote:
    Yes, a lot of this makes sense. Furyondy has much more important matters to deal with, most notably the evil empire on its northern doorstep. Keoland, for its part, fully deserves its reputation as a quitter, a loser, and a fair-weather friend...just ask Geoff and Sterich! Both countries are relatively neutral towards one another, however much their respective knighthoods might loathe each other.


    Ah yes, the "Treacherous neighbors should always expect full support of those they betrayed in the past" theory of Keoish relations.
    Keo-envy can be so ugly . . .
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:58 am  

    Skech wrote:
    Guys,

    Wow! That was really far better than anything I have found so far. Kudos to you both. I do appreciate it. Happy


    My pleasure. Happy I really like CSL's take. Happy

    The Keoland perspective is particularly interesting. Look at the extent of the land they lost in the Short War - 1) Those parts of Veluna they had earlier taken; 2) Bissell and 3) the Gran March, practically speaking (as the GM was freed from direct control from Keoland - LGG p. 50).

    Sum that area up and Keoland lost an area the size of Keoland itself between the Javan and Sheldomar Rivers - Keoland by this measure lost half of its territory or nearly so (or less so if you count Sterich and Geoff) - in any event is was a BIG loss, not to be soon forgotten.

    I imagine that Keolanders see the Short War as 1) like many southerners view the Civil War even 140+ years later or 2) like the Arabs view the Crusades even hundreds of years later or 3) like American interventions into Mexico and Latin America are still vividly recalled to mind generations later in those countries; etc. .

    This gives a Keolandish PC a lot to work with for roleplaying, and again I have to reference CSL's outstanding work within the specific context of knightly orders. A Keolander whose view of Furyondy is colored by "The War of Northern Aggression" (even though Keoland, via its catspaws, struck first like the Confederacy at Ft. Sumpter) could be pretty cool. More dramatic would be an imperialist Keolander whose attitude might resemble that of an Arab jihadist recalling the Crusades. Probably most likely, IMO, would be a Keolander PC who feels that Furyondy's intervention was uncalled for interference - the Latin American experience with Yanqui intervention into Latin American affairs. Overlaying all this could be a sense that Keoland really screwed up in the Short War and, pride to one side, needs to make amends. A party with Keolander and Furyondian PCs could be fascinating roleplaying.

    Not that all Keolanders will be dreaming of the Short War each night or reliving it daily; that would go to far. But the Short War was so significant in Keoland's history that it is entirely reasonable, IMO, that many would recall it when the topic of Furyondy comes up at the least. This would be especially true of any PC with a knowledge of Keoland's history and what was lost during the Short War. Maybe the PCs family was one with holdings lost during the Short War.

    Meanwhile, the Furyondian PC might be by some measure wondering what this Keolander is going on about. Some more opportunity for good roleplaying. For Furyondy, the Short War was a minor thing. They laid the smackdown on "the southern power" in a short time; denied them their outer dependencies; and went home - not much muss, not much fuss. So long as the Keolander proves themself, overcoming the Furyondian's guarded reaction to things Keolandish, the Furyondian would have fewer hurdles to get over in the relationship. The PC to PC discussions could be great stuff.
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    GVD
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    Sat Nov 04, 2006 8:11 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    I imagine that Keolanders see the Short War as 1) like many southerners view the Civil War even 140+ years later or 2) like the Arabs view the Crusades even hundreds of years later or 3) like American interventions into Mexico and Latin America are still vividly recalled to mind generations later in those countries; etc. .


    Normally you'd expect that, except:
    1. The group that supported those overly agressive parties ws a minority to begin with.
    2. It was all but wiped out in the Short War, lost more in the Geoff War, and destroyed at Westkeep fighting the Sea Princes.
    So there are pretty much no unreconstructed types in Keoland. There are in the Gran March, among the Knights of the Watch, but in Keoland, even among the the Rhola, Tavish III's family is gone, and his political party with him.
    Under Tavish II and III the Keoish were the crusaders, so they'd feel more like the dispossessed nobles and knights than the Arabs. And again, those people are mostly in the Gran March among the Knights of the Watch.
    As for the South American interventions, why would they be relevant? Keoland was an imperial power defeated by a rival imperial power. The feelings would be closer to the Hapsburgs after the Bourbons displaced them after the War of Spanish Succession, except Keoland hasn't constantly been losing pieces ever since. They've retrenched and been stable for 130 years.
    And, again, remember the internal opposition to the whole plan. It wasn't just the other noble families that opposed the invasions, there was major opposition to it within the Rhola themselves. For most Keoish, the whole thing is something best forgotten as a huge mistake from the beginning.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:45 am  

    GVD and Samwise,

    Both of you have made this thread perfect for my game by adding such wonderful national perspectives. GVD mentioned that this would make for great discussions and roleplaying moments between "north and south", and it seems that the two of you did just that yourselves. In otherwords, both of you just gave me the basis for a clear conversation (a script of sorts) to be heard at the tables of either high ranking nobles or generals regarding these defining incidents. One general of Keoland's view versus another's along with a visiting Furyondy noble's view could make for a great night of fun with the players left to create their own interpretation. How this will effect who they aid and how is gonna supercharge my gaming sessions for weeks.

    Thanks GVD and Samwise. Thank you both very much! Happy
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:57 am  

    CruelSummerlord,

    I didn't forget your help. Smile

    It just didn't flow with the other work, so I thot I'd respond separately.

    Thanks for the input on the repercussions of the discovered insurrection. I'm glad that you addressed it. I know for some that civil war in Keoland seems like an extreme situation and that it would require a lot of redifining of the Sheldomar if it occurred. (Just FYI, my player has drawn the wrong conclusion about information that she discovered.) I had forgot about Lashton. I'll have to dig up some info on him.

    Again, thank you for addressing the PC's potential conundrum. Smile
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