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    Canonfire :: View topic - Pre-Cataclysmic Wee Jas
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    Pre-Cataclysmic Wee Jas
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 18, 2004
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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:33 am  
    Pre-Cataclysmic Wee Jas

    I'm kicking around an ancient temple of Wee Jas, that was abandoned around the time of the Twin Cataclysms.

    As most of the legends say, Wee Jas acquired the Death portfolio as a result of her actions during the Rain of Colorless Fire. So, what was she like, "back in the day" before that?

    Obviously, a goddess of magic and the laws pertaining to its use. But let's get into some details.

    Any sources out there? Conjecture? Wild-assed guesses?

    Telas
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jul 26, 2006
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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:09 am  

    In my campaing my PCs are running into a Wee-Jas temple raised some year after the twin cataclysm...

    IMO Wee Jas was' clerics were deep into necromanthic practices long before the TC... and maybe the goddess involved herself (and her clerics) into the cataclysm affair in order to obtain more powers into the death area...

    the death portfolio generated a lot of hostility... (Vecna, Iuz... and so on)

    anyway

    If you want some description of my temple (or something about the story I've written about it) I'm here for you... Smile
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:09 am  

    Eldiel wrote:
    In my campaing my PCs are running into a Wee-Jas temple raised some year after the twin cataclysm...

    IMO Wee Jas was' clerics were deep into necromanthic practices long before the TC... and maybe the goddess involved herself (and her clerics) into the cataclysm affair in order to obtain more "death-oriented" powers...

    the death portfolio generated a lot of hostility... (Vecna, Iuz... and so on)

    anyway

    If you want some description of my temple (or something about the story I've written about it) I'm here for you... Smile

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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:11 am  

    anyway you will see more general info on my campaign in the "Good vs Evil" forum... Wink
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:19 am  

    Eldiel wrote:
    ... and maybe the goddess involved herself (and her clerics) into the cataclysm affair in order to obtain more powers into the death area...


    Excellent! The Suel see it as a goddess coming to their aid; she sees it as a leveraged buy-out opportunity.

    Yeah, anything you want to shove my way, please do. I'm telastx at the google mail thingy.

    Telas
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:27 am  
    Re: Pre-Cataclysmic Wee Jas

    She would have been the goddess of magic and law, famed for her vanity and avariciousness. Not just the laws pertaining to the use of magic, but all laws, secular and cosmic. Not just necromancy, but all magical schools. Her shrine, if it hasn't been looted, would be very richly decorated with jewels and precious metals; a flattering statue of her as a beautiful mortal woman would have a central location. Magic would be used to good effect, with the shrine possibly levitating or at least glowing. Wizardly script would be used everywhere, and the temple would likely have a well-stocked magical library. She would have been a greater goddess at the time, if she isn't one now. There would be many images of various saints of the church - powerful wizards of the past thought to serve Wee Jas directly in her patterned web in the afterlife. She would have been one of the most important goddesses in ancient Suel society, at least among the powerful. To nonmagical commoners, she wouldn't have been so important, unless there are myths about her using magic to create humanity or some such. As with Odin, there might be myths about Wee Jas actually dying, finding the secrets of magic beyond death, and returning to life, which would help set the stage for her later capture of the death portfolio.

    Some have speculated that the previous Suel goddess of death was Beltar, who as goddess of pits could naturally be seen as having dominion over the grave. Beltar's high priestesses tend to be liches even today, indicating a very macabre bent. An ancient temple of Wee Jas might show Wee Jas using magic to battle or conquer Beltar, symbolizing Hades.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:28 am  

    glad to help you!

    ah, if you find something else about wee-jass... I'm interested!

    Quote:
    She would have been the goddess of magic and law, famed for her vanity and avariciousness


    yes, that's why I suggested this:

    Quote:
    maybe the goddess involved herself (and her clerics) into the cataclysm affair in order to obtain more powers into the death area...

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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:35 am  

    Other Wee Jas resources...

    There's the very excellent dissection and ressurection of Wee Jas by GVDammerung at this very site.
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=578
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=579
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=580

    There is also a Living Greyhawk Yahoo site dedicated to Wee Jas.
    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/HouseofWeeJas/

    Telas
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:23 pm  

    Quote:
    There's the very excellent dissection and ressurection of Wee Jas by GVDammerung at this very site.
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=578
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=579
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=580


    thanks

    I forgot these articles...

    I'll be back soon with comments!
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:55 am  

    Telas wrote:
    Other Wee Jas resources...

    There's the very excellent dissection and ressurection of Wee Jas by GVDammerung at this very site.
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=578
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=579
    http://www.canonfire.com/cf//modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=580

    There is also a Living Greyhawk Yahoo site dedicated to Wee Jas.
    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/HouseofWeeJas/

    Telas


    Some of this material, I am lead to believe, will be showing up in the next issue of Dragon in the Core Beliefs Wee Jas article. At least, I was asked for and gave permission for this material to be used. Sean Reynolds is writing the article but I am supposed to get some sort of by-line/credit.
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    GVD
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:02 am  

    Congratz!! I'm hoping it comes out well before I finish the temple.

    Any other advice, O Redesigner of Deities? Wink

    Telas
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:56 pm  

    I've adopted the optional rules for raising the dead so that only clerics of death deities such as Wee Jas or Nerull can bring back the dead as standard. Other clerics pay for the privilege by buying the optional feat unless they have access to the domain spells of the Healing domain.

    Since Nerull's clerics demand a replacement intelligent sacrifice before bringing back the dead, this places Wee Jas' priests in a very powerful position in my campaign. You can see why Wee Jas would want a bite of that cherry!
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Wed Nov 08, 2006 6:34 pm  

    I don't view Wee Jas as finally having picked up the Death domain upon the occurrence of the TC's. Wee Jas always had control of the Death domain among the Suel deities, for no other deity had it to begin with. The Death domain always belonged to her, though it's role was relatively minor. This is all wrapped up in how the Suel viewed the gods to begin with, particularly during the time of the Suel Imperium and the reign of the Mages of Power.

    As has been cited on numerous occasions many Suel, in particular those of an arcane persuasion and especially the Mages of Power and their apprentices, have held the gods to be nothing more than simply extremely powerful beings who have achieved their immortality though unlocking some final mystical secret- a secret that they themselves one day would undoubtedly be able to unlock as well. Those of the arcane persuasion have been long known to make use of necromancy to prolong their lifespan in unnatural ways. It is certainly of note that the Mages of Power ruled the Suel Imperium with little regard to the power of any of the churches. After all, the clerics of such gods were merely being given the power to cast spells, similar to how a mage can imbue spell power into an object or gift the ability to another, though temporarily. The “gods” had just become so powerful as to figure out how to imbue such powers to people on a mass scale.

    Mages could even approximate healing, but only by using a take and give method(wound transferal basically) or through the limited wish and wish spells. Knowing that healing was possible through such means, the Mages of Power knew that what the supposed gods could accomplish with regards to healing must simply be another plateau of power that they had yet to achieve. Perhaps the ability was linked to the positive Plane. Once that was figured out it was only a matter of being powerful enough to disperse such ability on a mass scale. Of course, the Mages of Power would never get the chance to test their theories.

    With the onset of the Suel-Baklunish conflict, the Mages of Power came into their own, unleashing horrific magics in numerous battles against the armies of the Baklunish Sorcerer-priests. The power over life and death on such a massive scale served as further confirmation of what the Mages of Power strove to achieve. The Mages of Power only needed to discover the proper avenues of power, only the lack of knowledge of which prevented them from acquiring the abilities of the supposed gods.

    Wee Jas, being the goddess of magic, was all too aware of the designs of the Mages of Power, for she could see what the goals of the Mages of Power were. She also knew that the path to divinity lay not through arcane means alone. She certainly held power herself and the Suel people knew this to be sure, for could not magic prolong the lives of those who knew how to use it, giving them a measure of power over death? It is in this way that Wee Jas was initially worshiped as a death goddess for magic, any type of magic, was linked to life and death and the mortal form through protecting it, altering it, prolonging it, or ending it. It is no wonder that it is through magic alone that miracles can be achieved. Being the goddess of magic, Wee Jas holds the power of life and death in her hands. But as she was not a creator of life(only Lendor is among the Suel pantheon), Wee Jas’ power over life and death is understood to apply to only the power of dealing death or prolonging life(primarily through the use of magic), and as a goddess of law above all things, this power must follow the natural order of things. While magic might be used to prolong a life, in the end, all things must die. Those who seek to subvert this natural order are anathema- undead being the prime example of this.

    Such is Wee Jas’ power over life and death. While Law and Magic will always be at the forefront of her spheres of control, Death is among her areas of control as well though in a manner that varies slightly from that of other death gods, such as Nerull who deals death just for the hell of it.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:11 am  

    Telas wrote:
    Congratz!! I'm hoping it comes out well before I finish the temple.


    Thank you, but congratulations may be premature. SKR is writing the piece and was not very communicative. Neither am I on Eric Mona’s Christmas card list. The final outcome remains to be seen. Notably, this is SKR’s third go round with Wee Jas and will be the most in depth. From his brief comments and a suggestion I made, I have hope that the Wee Jas Core Beliefs article may be an above the average entry in the series. I have not, however, seen the finished product nor its draft, as SKR is the author.

    My personal feeling as regards Wee Jas’ pre-Cataclysm portfolio is much along the lines Cebrion has well articulated. I see Wee Jas as always having been a goddess of death. Her power was then notably increased with the Twin Cataclysms but it did not originate there. As the Twin Cataclysms was also a magical event of tremendous proportions, it also augmented her power as regards magic.

    The jury, however, remains very much out on Wee Jas, even in consideration of the forthcoming article. After Pelor, Wee Jas has had the greatest number of references in 3X material, and that material keeps on coming. When 4X eventually appears, and Greyhawk is presumably no longer the default, it will be possible to complete the catalog of all the 3X references and to attempt to see what they say about the deity.

    I think the Wee Jas article will be in the December issue that will actually arrive this month. Or then in December.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:09 pm  

    The Mages of Power section was bit of a tangent, but I thought I'd include it. It somewhat defines for me not only the Suel perception of magic but also their perception of the gods and their role. Seeing how the Mages of Power ended up, and what they ineveitably brought down upon the heads of the Suel people, I think the Suel pay more lip service to the churches since the TC's. Wink

    I am surprised that, yes, this is SKR's third go at Wee Jas. At any rate, the article should be interesting and hopefully will be as huge as the previous Vecna article was. The more background the merrier I say. Not that I use it all, but more ideas can't be a bad thing.


    Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Nov 10, 2006 3:42 pm  

    I remember reading... somewhere... that all Suel deities used to "share" the Death portfolio as each was responsible for those who died in ways related to his/her own portfolio. Then, since so many Suel people died by magic in the Rain of Colorless Fire, Wee Jas - goddess of magic as she were - found herself in charge of so many departed souls, and she wholesale adopted the role of a goddess of Death.

    Too bad I can't remember where this was from... maybe these very forums?
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Nov 11, 2006 9:14 am  

    don't forget the suel interesting into undead magic...
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