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    Canonfire :: View topic - Zombies and skeletons, no big deal?
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    Zombies and skeletons, no big deal?
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    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 01, 2004
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    From: Nyrond

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    Mon Dec 18, 2006 3:48 pm  
    Zombies and skeletons, no big deal?

    Hello All,

    Sorry to plaster the forum Embarassed My players always yawn at the lesser undead. They simply aren't bothered by the grotesque decaying zombies and their brethern skeletons. Aside from the descriptive flavor I give them, they aren't afraid, unless I enhance them in some fashion. Even then, when they meet the undead again, it's:

    Fighter: "Hey a zombie has come out of the shadows into our camp...dwarf?"

    Dwarf: "Nah, I'm tired, let somebody else take care of it."

    Fighter: "Mage?"

    Mage: "And waste a spell, what crack are you on?"

    Fighter: "Cleric?"

    Cleric: "Nah, let somebody else have some fun."

    Fighter: "Fine, I'll do it. It'll just catch flame and cause other problems. Ah how cute, he's trying to break through my 23 AC? Try my battleaxe! Well that was fun, okay I'm off to bed, somebody take first watch."

    So my question is, what do the local average peasants, laborers, aristocrats and all think about the undead? Would a village collectively crap itself? Would they send out some hardy folks and burn it (the zombie) to the ground and not think twice about who it was or where it came from or why it was in their neck of the woods? What's your thoughts?

    Ain't skeerd!
    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:09 pm  

    Monsters like zombies and skeletons are, traditionally, terrifying because of their numbers and relative indestructability (they keep coming!). Villagers would likely be grossed out and/or terrified of such things in keeping with their particular personalities. But if the creature doesn't exude really awful horror or rip five guys apart with its bare hands, its quite likely that a few folks would try to kill it (if only to save their lives/goods) and/or a mob would be stirred up against such a threat. And a 'normal' zombie or skeleton (or even a few of them together) would go down under that sort of assault.

    Now, if the creatures resisted that sort of thing or resembled some other legendary beast that couldn't be killed or whatever, then they'd all hide behind bolted doors or run for the nearest castle.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 18, 2006 5:48 pm  

    I think most villagers would crap themselves... I know I would, if something I knew to be dead was walking toward me! But then again, that's because IMC the average priest is a non-spell-casting commoner, and there are few high level NPCs or spellcasters around in remote villages to protect the peasants.

    IMC, I use a modified hybrid of the Ravenloft Fear/Horror/Madness rules, in combination with the insanity rules presented in Unearthed Arcana. A mere skeleton might terrify an adventurer, especially a low level PC. Too many encounters with undead (among other things) can result in a substantial loss of sanity points... which can, in the long run, leave one in a debilitating state. I think there is something inherently wrong in PCs yawning at the sight of even low level undead... IMO, the mere existence of undead should be enough to shake a human being's faith and sense of security, even in a fantasy game ("that could happen to me someday!"). Once in a while, when conditions permit and to add to the horror, I'll make sure that the shambling zombies encountered by PCs are the remains of little children, or of family/friends...

    If you want to create truly memorable encounters with low level undead (zombies, skeletons, ghouls, ghasts, etc.), I highly recommend you pick up a copy of the 3e "Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead" for the Ravenloft line... the best 3e source dealing with undead, IMO. It'll work well in any campaign. The book is out of print now, but you should be able to track it down on e-bay.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 18, 2006 6:34 pm  

    Well, it really depends a lot of how integrated you think magic and the outre is. Walking dead are really bad news in the real world, their very existance would undermine our rationalistic understanding of the world. Villagers in Greyhawk don't doubt the existance of walking dead. They are horrible icky things, but not irrational, reality bending ones.

    Every village is going to have brave folks and cowards, the competent and the incompetent. An villagers in the real world have a history of forming mobs to deal with supernatural threats, if they think they can get away with it. There are lots of tales of villagers going out to stake down suspected vampires during the day or ambushing wizards and witches and the like. I suspect that would be the reaction to a small number of walking dead. Only after they proved too tough would they run home and hide under the bed until the adventurers came.

    And traditional, standard skeletons and zombies are not in that "too tough" class, though most true undead are. Its certainly within the DM's perogative to change that and make even simple animated dead have that whiff of supernatural horror that would make them the stuff heroes are needed to deal with. But that's not the way they are currently.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Mon Dec 18, 2006 11:41 pm  
    Re: Zombies and skeletons, no big deal?

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    Hello All,

    So my question is, what do the local average peasants, laborers, aristocrats and all think about the undead? Would a village collectively crap itself? Would they send out some hardy folks and burn it (the zombie) to the ground and not think twice about who it was or where it came from or why it was in their neck of the woods? What's your thoughts?

    Ain't skeerd!
    Dwarf from Nyrond


    I think most average peasants and laborers would be shocked and horrified at the appearance of these things, but they would know such things are possible, whether through hearing legends or hearing their priests and lords warn them about it. I think that most likely they'd attack them with their pitchforks, sledgehammers and antique pole arms, and probably take them down, then burn them.

    Remember, the zombies and skeletons of D&D aren't the same as we see in traditional horror films like Night of the Living Dead; in a world where magic is a tangible and accepted part of reality, these things are easier to believe, if not less horrifying.

    In your average zombie movie, zombies can spread by biting humans, and can only be killed by having their heads blown off, sliced by chainsaws, or something like that. In the D&D universe, a zombie can go down with one hit from a short sword swung by a 0-level/1st level commoner halfling with no practical combat experience.

    If farmers can form militias to fight orcs and goblins, who can think and use tactics, they can also band together to fight zombies and skeletons. They might be horrified at the sight of the things, and get the priest to sanctify the bodies before burning them to ash, but they're tougher than your average real-life suburbanite would be. Your average real-life human sees heroic myths and legends as just that-myths. If they were to see shambling corpses walking around, they'd piss their drawers. In a fantasy world, where humans regularly have to fend off attacks by creatures that look like a cross between a man and a warthog, deal with short folks with incredible craftsmanship skills whose women are bearded, and see their local cleric use magic to purify food and drink or help a woman give birth, such things are easier to accept.

    It should also be noted that zombies and skeletons probably don't make very good mass combat troops-they all need to be ordered and directed, and only a high-level necromancer or evil cleric would have the capacity to do that. Otherwise, they're mindless creatures that can be easily destroyed or tricked into destroying themselves. Left to their own devices, the zombies and skeletons will simply march mindlessly towards the farmers, who will mow them down with arrows and thrown rocks before destroying whatever survived their missle assault.

    Zombies and skeletons need conscious direction to be a threat-what kind of idiot tactician sends in only one zombie against a band of adventurers? Adventurers, who are used to fighting horrible creatures and seeing blood and gore, are probably better able to stomach facing the creatures.

    In short, then, I think that most peasants and other "average" humans find such things repulsive and disgusting, but they're not completely floored by their existence the way real-life humans would be, as it's easier to believe that such things are possible. Patrols and village militias can usually handle these things, as they're not very skilled fighters and need competent direction to be a major tactical threat. A patrol unit has some training and coordination, while skeletons and zombies on their own will just march forward on auto-pilot and not even bother to get out of the way of the arrows and sling-stones you're shooting at them. A cracked skull here, an arrow-pierced zombie head there, and the creatures can go down like bowling pins.

    Openly attacking villages with skeletons and zombies seems to be just begging for intervention from adventurers; orcs and goblins can move about of their own free will and attack of their own volition, without any evil power backing them up, but the presence of undead creatures that need dark magic to be raised is a fairly obvious sign that something's up, that some dark wizard or cleric is at work...and that leads to the presence of capable people to investigate-like adventurers.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 20, 2006 5:26 am  

    Most commoners will be proficient in only one simple weapon and both skeletons and zombies have damage resistance. Few peasants have ranks in knowledge - religion to know which weapons they are vulnerable to, so I do think that these simple undead would pose a fearsome threat to ordinary peasant folk. Lets not forget that the rock-throwing peasants mentioned earlier would get -4 to hit with improvised weapons plus range penalties if appropriate. I'd be doubtful that they'd be able to take down many advancing skeletons before being engaged in melee.

    Obviously the threat is less to adventurers but there is always the spell-stitched option to add a bit of extra flavour or a rogue disguised with Diguise Self could suddenly prove tougher if he can take advantage of flanking by mindless undead.
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 20, 2006 6:12 am  
    IMC

    IMC the peasants are not generally familiar with the undead, and have to use morale checks to deal with something so unnerving. The exceptions to this are of villages around the Rushmoors, from which lesser undead have inexplicable walked out for centuries.

    In those villages the villagers are very familiar with skeletons and zombies, and dispatch them fairly rapidly using a variety of tactics. My experiance with PC's has been similar, in that they do not fear such lowly creatures. To counter this I have done several things; applying the zombie template to a few ogres works well. However, what I like more is the use of a the mob template from DMG2. A horde of the nasty creatures, acting as one mindless unit really changes things up on the PCs : )
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 20, 2006 4:50 pm  

    Understanding what the peasant class is familiar with helps us maintain contiuity. No one here would put up a strong agruement if I said a group of adventurers wouldn't find it too difficult a task to find zombies and skeletons in Iuz, the Horned Society or parts of the former Great Kingdom. No one here would put up a strong argument if I said a group of adventurers would be hard pressed to find the same frequency of undead in The Pale, Celene or Veluna. We have contiuity. We have, to a degree, a clear distinction of what a group would encounter and where they would encounter it. Peasants living in a world of magic and monsters may be upset if a zombie came strolling in, but they would be understand it is a possability (a dark possability, but one nonetheless) of living in such a magic rich world. The question is, with the designers throwing everything into supplements and such, how do we promote an honest world like WoG against other worlds where the peasants wouldn't freak if a group of adventurers consisted of a half-orc barbarian sorcerer, a half-Ogre favored soul, an elven dread necromancer, a dwarven cleric and a human sword sage? Peasants may be willing to deal with a zombie and would seek help should it become a common occurance or if the undead became more dangerous. How would the peasants in our beloved WoG react to the motley crew of adventurers listed above? I place strict guidelines on what my players can play and many would be new players scoff at not being aloowed to play a half-demon/half-drow anti-paladin of Lolth. Even after I politley explain the world, they sneer and say, "This is a lame world. I'll go play in Eberron and kick some @$$." I think that we have to either bump up the outlandish fantasy in WoG or promote it in some other way to reach a younger generation.

    And you thought this was a lame article about undead Wink
    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Wed Dec 20, 2006 8:34 pm  

    Personally I like GH low fantasy based reality, I find while early on "new players" like the wow factor over time even that becomes old hat. Finally there is a dragon around every rock.

    Simply put I disagree that GH needs to up the fantasy to compete, unless all we want are the powergamers, who care less whether the world is GH or Eberron as long as they get the uber magical item.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Dec 20, 2006 9:36 pm  

    I agree with Crag, my games have always been low fantasy and also low magic item aswell. Mythical monsters and beasts are rare and most problems have been with feuding human/demi human factions and roaming bands of humanoids. Zombies and skeletons form an integral part of the game as they are the most common form of undead and can be created by quite low level bad guys!, How they are directed and what orders they have can make the differance between a ho hum encounter and oh **** what the hell are we going to do type encounter. Yes a medium level team will cut through copius amounts of them but weight of numbers will pull them to the ground and a prone adventurer pinned to the floor by 8 skeleys or zombies allows the nasty creator to come along and do nasty things to them. Shocked
    As magic items are rare creatures which require magical weapons to hi them now become a huge threat to the players and everyone stands behind the cleric willing the turning roll to be made. My recent game had only 2 +1 weapons in for the team for probably the best part of 6 months play. The team work between Cleric, Mage and the rest of the team was some of the best gaming I have had the pleasure to witness. Creative DMing can kill anything or anyone, but it also can make a lowly Skeley or Zombie a worthy adversary. Cool
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 5:01 am  

    I agree totally. I placed quite strict limits on spell-casting classes in my campaign with places like Greyhawk, Ekbir and Rel Astra being rare centres of magic. Under the 1e rules npcs & monsters got a -2 to morale when being faced with magic.

    LG has blurred matters somewhat to ensure equal availability of classes in each region but when I get done with my write ups I intend to downgrade the number of spell-casters to be more in keeping with Greyhawk's low magic roots (especially wizards since most temples are manned only by a handful of moderate to powerful clerics plus low level acolytes but wizards guilds seem to be populated large numbers of powerful wizards (often one per school of magic).
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:06 am  
    Re: IMC

    Anced_Math wrote:
    However, what I like more is the use of a the mob template from DMG2. A horde of the nasty creatures, acting as one mindless unit really changes things up on the PCs : )


    Don't do it.
    The mob template is fine for street mobs, but it becomes absurd lethal with almost any other creature. Unless you want to simply butcher the PCs, wait until some significant revision for it is published.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 2:25 pm  

    Crag wrote:
    Personally I like GH low fantasy based reality, I find while early on "new players" like the wow factor over time even that becomes old hat. Finally there is a dragon around every rock.

    Simply put I disagree that GH needs to up the fantasy to compete, unless all we want are the powergamers, who care less whether the world is GH or Eberron as long as they get the uber magical item.


    AMEN, BROTHER! TESTIFY!

    Ahem...

    Fantastic contributions. I stand corrected on how ordinary farmers and peasants will react to skeletons and zombies, and the need to limit magic items so these types of creatures remain a threat. However, I still feel that openly assaulting towns and villages with undead is very stupid unless the controller actually wants the attention of adventurers. Maybe instead some appropriate sightings, enough to put fear into anyone who might see what's going on, could scare people away from the controller's activities. Adventurers might still investigate, but not as openly as if you send mobs of zombies and skeletons to ravage the countryside. A few of the creatures might suffice to scare off the townsfolk if you need access to their town, but they should be best used to inspire fear, and not necessarily as shock troops, I think.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:58 pm  

    I dont think that GH has ever been either low fantasy or low magic. I have seen it posted on CF! a thousand times, but I don't really think it is a product of GH's past. Against the Giants, Vault of the Drow, Temple of Elemental Evil, Castle Greyhawk, were all filled with magic items. S4 (my favorite module) had to have a supplement to list all the new magic items and artifacts. Zagig trapped Demi-gods! The Crook of Rao banished all the demons! A Demi-God currently rules a kingdom and an undead lord rules another. Rauxes, possibly the greatest city in the Flaness is trapped in a magic storm of some sort, and Giants rule the lands of the west. Remember Whiteplume Mountain? Few magic trinkets there, IIRC. Rain of Colorless Fire and Invoked Devestation anyone?

    I appreciate that everyone has an indavidual vision of GH, and I hope you enjoy playing in whatever manner you like. However, I dont think the published material agrees. What I think it shows is a world where magic is horded and coveted, and kept by those that have the power to keep it. But it is neither rare nor lowly.

    I think Greyhawk can encompass any class/race/history for a character if it is well crafted and intelligent. Stories work that way. Not every villager is going to accept the halfdragon/halfnymph with outsider blood and a flying steed... but it is a game, nothing is broken. Remember, these same people are using magic swords and casting spells; last time I checked you can't get those at Wal-Mart.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:40 pm  

    Excellent replies indeed. I myself don't feel that Greyhawk needs to be enhanced with regard to magic and fantasy. My current group completely understands why I generally restrict classes and they certainly understand my take on magic items (magic is hoarded by those powerful or clever enough to keep it). The question is not what we should do with our current players, but what can we do to make WoG more attractive to the younger generations who are hooked on video games and epic level fantasy at low levels. They see lowly undead and yawn. They see ghouls and yawn. Wights, Wraiths? The charcters still get saves. Vampire? Please, who hasn't faced one of those? Now the fun doesn't start till we open up the book of Aberrations and combine it with the Book of Vile Darkness, throw in the latest edition of some demon or devil guide and then and only then do we have the beginnings of a game. Geez, munchkin powergaming or not, enough is enough.

    I Miss the Wild Coast,
    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:50 pm  

    Dwarf, my reply is simple, though incomplete... the following is the introdouction to the Gran March Project...

    Quote:
    Campaign Setting Versus Campaign World

    I remember getting the World of Greyhawk Folio in a stack of “Dungeons & Dragons,” books I bought from my neighbor. I had been playing with friends for about a year and I did not own any of the books. We had started off without even using dice, but Medger just told the story and asked me what I wanted to do. I fell in love with the game in 6th grade study hall.

    My teacher, who lived down the street, noticed me looking through Medger’s “Deities and Demigods.” Her son had decided he was too old to play kids games, and sold me all the AD&D books, some modules, and The World of Greyhawk Folio for $15. It was the best $15 I have ever spent. The Shields caught me first… then the nations. The “Wild Coast,” won my heart and I spent the next twenty years gaming there. We cashed in our goods in the Free City, wary of the mayor and the thieves. We traveled to Hardby, intrigued by any city where women rule. We battled the humanoids in the Pomarj.

    The World of Greyhawk is the eldest of all campaign worlds. It is rich in history, characters and places. Nations with deep history and roots are involved in titanic struggles. Evil stalks the land, and in a few places those of good hearts still hold out.

    And yet… there has always been something missing in Greyhawk for me. It was not something that was not present in the setting; it was something that was not charted. Like most people, I loved the openness of the setting, the Grey between the lines. The vast empty spaces that could be anything you imagined. But there was no place to start, and no place to return to.

    The City of Greyhawk has been mapped, repeatedly, and it is a great place to game. But like Paris isn’t France, Greyhawk isn’t the Flaness. It is almost a place unto itself, a country unto itself. The City of Greyhawk is THE metropolis, a world so vast and different, that my characters never wanted to leave. It is a great place to visit if your characters are from elsewhere. But where do they return to?

    Hommelt almost fills the bill. It was the first Module I owned. I have run the module so much I can close my eyes and see the rooms of the moathouse. But there isn’t enough of it. It is the first real place in Greyhawk that characters can be from. Every place else was just a name, and I wanted more.

    The World of Greyhawk is just that, a world. While various adventures have been created over the years (and I love them all) there really has never been a setting created. A place where the characters can begin, live and end their lives as a part of something. Where there is a guild they can join or a knightly order where they can train. A place where the characters and the players can know what is over the hill, where they can save the day without breaking the world.

    Also, as the business of gaming moves on and our beloved world is left behind, there is no starting point. Every player I have ever introduced to Greyhawk has loved the place. But unless I introduced them, they all said they would skip it. There is no starting place. There never has been. For a new DM, it is like drinking from a fire hose. This is an attempt to fill that void, to bridge the gap.

    The Gran March was chosen because it was a grey void on the map. Many things had happened nearby, or even within the borders, but no one knows anything about it. Majestic Keoland lies to the south, giant infested Geoff to the west, overrun Bissel to the north, and the Lortmils and Celene to the east. And yet there it lies, an empty place on the map. No more… Enjoy.

    Miller L. Heath, III
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    Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:40 pm  

    Its not 'low magic' or 'low fantasy' on an absolute spectrum. An example of that would be the world of Harn. What it is, however, is low magic/fantasy by D&D game world standards. Yeah, there's tons of magic and loot available in the published materials. D&D has always been big on rewards for adventurers. The DMG 1e outright says the equivalent of gold and magic are way cooler to find than copper and masterwork stuff, so that's what PCs should find.

    But what you don't find in (early) GH materials are dozens of archmages in a single city, entire nations of half fiends, or military units of hundreds of footsoldiers equipped with magical swords, or sky cities, or the world revolving around transnational conspiracies instead of nations. Yeah, there's a bit of that already and its steadily been ramped up over time. But that's generally what folks mean by 'GH is low magic'.

    However, that's really a different thread topic, so.....

    in general, villagers are neither stupid nor cowardly. Some are obviously one or the other or both. But on the whole they are neither. Ill educated and parochial? Yeah. Stupid or cowardly? No. A horde of skeletons and zombies? Sure, they'd run for the nearest castle or fortified manor house. Same as they would if a swarm of orcs or other raiders descended on the village. A few skeletons or zombies? They'd be horrified and outraged and in most cases would try to defend their village. Peasants have plenty of weapons: pitchforks, billhooks, shovels, scythes, mattocks, and the like. In some places they may be like the English and have regular military training.

    Peasants form right good mobs, after all. And, as I mentioned above, there are plenty of tales of them going after supernatural nasties when they think they can get away with it (ie staking vampires in daytime or slapping a bag over the witch's head so she can't hex you).

    Regular zombies and skeletons are horrible and gross, but they do not have a supernatural dread effect unless the DM choses to add it.
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    Fri Dec 22, 2006 4:44 am  

    Yah, what Vormaerin said 100%.

    I admit that I consciously reduced the amount of magical loot lying around in those old mods except for potions and scrolls or other stuff in dragon hoards. Since pc's rarely have damage resistance does it really matter if the villains only have masterwork weapons? Tag on a Glyph of Warding triggered by the blood of a non-believer, oil of keen edge, or some such if you want to beef up a weapon without putting a permanent magic item out there.

    But I'm digressing. Wizards have never been 'common' and peasants should find undead daunting unless they live in an area where such attacks are (relatively) common in which case the town militia or town elders will spend some points in Knowledge religion to demonstrate greater confidence and experience. If not, send off to the nearest town for brave adventurers.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:26 pm  

    Howdy Everyone,

    As one of my players once said to me, "Ya know, I get it now. Everyone thinks you're a hard@$$, but you're really not. You are making a world where it's not just a walk through for the players and when we do achieve something, it's because we earned it by our own hands! I get it now." I like to think of Greyhawk as an open area where everyone can make it there own and not limited to dogmatic canon. The question is, whether peasants are rubbich, whether they are canon-fodder or if they are the foundation of a staunch and hardy society, how do we make WoG a more tempting setting for the newer generation?

    Every move forward is a move backward for the enemy.
    Dwarf from Nyrond
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    Fri Dec 22, 2006 7:20 pm  

    Wouldn't the reaction depend on the area and peasants themselves...

    If we are talking a frontier border area, generally speaking "pioneer" types are hardier than the soft urbanite type, that have larger numbers.

    Ofcourse alot depends on the type of culture and experience; In the north near Iuz, the horned society or GK due to the use of undead and evil priesthoods, the nations nearby would be hardy indeed and probably have experience with the undead.

    ie: Marklands Northern Provincial Militia is termed tough and experienced well the Militia of the Southern Province is termed green and inexperienced.

    Ofcourse any local evil necromancer defeated would have the means to defeat the undead passed down in local folklore and generally known by the local religious leaders. How accurate their knowledge is remains an open question.
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