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    Canonfire :: View topic - It's Available: Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    It's Available: Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 08, 2007 7:37 pm  
    It's Available: Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk

    So what did you folks think about the book? Can we discuss it without ruining any plot lines for the others out there?

    Thought it was very good, with the exception of the conclusion. Guess I'll have to change that part. Very Greyhawkish. Attention of Greyhawk lore and world oriented details very good, not perfect, but exceeded my expectations (which were pretty high in the first place).

    But for now, my group needs to get out of Ravenloft alive. Then its on the way back to Greyhawk. Divine magic is on its way out in my world (which really sucks because Eileen is a cleric) because there is a war gearing up between arcane and divine magic, which is being orchestrated by a powerful group of undead spellcasters.

    Now all I have to do is figure out how to add to the module so that I can possibly get some divine magic back. Dungeon is big enough, I'm sure there is room.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:52 am  

    I've got it, but haven't had a chance to do more than flick through it and look at the pretty pictures.

    But I've read the cast of NPCs and it's a very impresive list. Once I get some time I'll settle down and give it a good going over.
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:59 am  

    The cast of NPCs was incredible. Extremely impressive. On the downside, take a good look at the picture of the dragon (page 69) and then read the corresponding text (pages 68 and 84 Oooops! You have to wonder how that hapened. Oh well, no harm done.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:19 am  

    True, but I'll forgive them as they put in a half drow-half succubus in. Laughing

    Maybe they're trying to make up for the loss of demonic beauties caused by the canning of Dungeon. Wink (Think I'm kidding? The last few issues have at least one example of fiendish eye candy in the Savage Tide adventures)
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:51 am  

    Where did y'all get it from? I thought it wasn;t supposed to be out until the end of the month...
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:05 am  

    I found mine at the local bookstore which doesn't even have that great of a D&D selection. I went there looking for the last issue of Dungeon magazine (which wasn't there yet) and instead found the Expedition to the Ruins of Grehawk, well naturally I couldn't walk away from that.

    Check out your nearest store that carries D&D they probably already have it or will when they receive their next shipment. Good luck and great reading.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:30 am  

    Mine was an impuse buy from a Forbidden Planet Store I was passing through.

    I've also got the last Dungeon. For some reason I keep finding this stuff early. Laughing
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:24 am  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    I found mine at the local bookstore which doesn't even have that great of a D&D selection. I went there looking for the last issue of Dungeon magazine (which wasn't there yet) and instead found the Expedition to the Ruins of Grehawk, well naturally I couldn't walk away from that.

    Check out your nearest store that carries D&D they probably already have it or will when they receive their next shipment. Good luck and great reading.


    Thanks, Eileen! Went last night to my local Borders and they had three. So foar, it looks like it's going to be a good module.
    CF Admin

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    Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:46 am  

    Looks like I know where I'm stopping on the way home from lunch today :D
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    Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:35 am  

    No luck in Wichita: none of the game/comic book stores, nor B&N have EttRoG in stock. I haven't checked Borders, so at this rate I may just order from Amazon to save the extra $$$....
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    Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:55 pm  

    I finished my primary read-thru tonight. I'll read it again tomorrow.

    First impressions:

    Less of a 'campaign book' and more like 'campaign sketch book'. Lots of material, skimpy on detail. Some great ideas (especially for anyone who'd read the previous Castle Greyhawk material) but I got the feeling that WoTC cut down the end product to squeeze it into a predetermined page length/book format.

    Maps were good, probably could be used in conjuntion with previously published material to bring it up to code. Artwork was ok, some very nice portraits, but not very many of them. Tactical maps seemed well thought out.

    Not much in the way of new magic or new creatures. The ending seemed...contrived.

    Overall, I think this book could be used with the 'Ruins of Greyhawk' publication to create/update the old setting into something spectacular....might be a worthwhile future project. As it stands, the book/adventure isn't 'perfect' but it more than gets the job done. IMHO, it's a good purchase, if for no other reason than to show WoTC that 'offical' support of the World of Greyhawk is a soild investment.

    On a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 6.7.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:18 am  

    I agree with weaver95 for the most part. The book was sketchy in spots probably to squeeze in as much material as possible. I will end up adding to it before I run it, adding maps to the areas where it leaves off using their guidlines.

    The section on the City of Greyhawk could have been shorter in order to put more ruins in.

    I loved the use of major NPCs.

    I really disliked the ending if the characters succeed. No more Castle Greyhawk in the Flanaess.....How can this be. How can you have Greyhawk with no castle?

    I'd give the adventure and plot a solid 8.5. I'd give the ending Concluding the Adventure (page 188) a 2 mainly because they say it goes bye bye.
    But I see that as a minor change. If they ever have a follow up adventure however, I may run into trouble when the time comes.

    I encourage everyone to buy it, it really is a great adventure and shows WOTC that Greyhawk fans demand their attention. We deserve it. After all we are the first fans (in regards to a campaign world at least) and the fact that were still here (despite their avoidance) says volumes. WOTC should be thanking us for suporting them, not the other way around.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:44 am  

    I've really been looking forward to purchasing an actual Greyhawk product. I'll will buy it regardless of reviews, but since as we are likely to see it last here down under, I was wondering if someone who has a copy could provide a bit of a sketch of the content.

    1. How much info is there about the City of Greyhawk? I have the box sets so I don't really need much.

    2. Could you list some of the major (famous) NPCs that have stats provided in the book?

    3. Any other part of the content that is worth a mention? Maps, artwork, obscure references?

    Thanks in advance.
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:10 am  

    Phalastar wrote:


    1. How much info is there about the City of Greyhawk? I have the box sets so I don't really need much.


    There's a general map of the city, and a small area is better detailed (river quarter). But not every street in every quarter is shown, and there is only passing reference to the rest of the city.

    Quote:
    2. Could you list some of the major (famous) NPCs that have stats provided in the book?


    Vayne (he of Iuz's Boneheart fame), Iggwilv (sort of - you'll see what I mean when you get the book). The rest of the 'big players' are mostly there for color (Tenser and Mordenkanen and all the rest), so no stat blocks for them. There might have been a few others that I missed, I can go back thru the book looking for stat blocks later.

    Quote:
    3. Any other part of the content that is worth a mention? Maps, artwork, obscure references?


    This book covers a LOT of ground. More than a few demi-planes (which SHOULD have been better covered in the book) and pocket dimensions. A general overview of the castle is provided (with a nice map on pg 43), but only some areas are covered in detail. Lots of name dropping, a very obvious tie in to Maure castle as a sub-plot, and a good update from the old 'Ruins of Greyhawk' book. Anyone who's played that adventure will find this book a nice upgrade.

    However, despite the broad array of topics and length of the tome, it lacks in detail. specifically, if you can aquire a copy of 'Isle of the Ape' and 'Dungeonland', do so now and start updating them to 3.5 rules. They're integral to the ending portion of the campaign plot, but details on those areas are thin. Too thin to be playable IMHO, but with some work (and illegal .pdf copies scavenged from the net) it could be done.

    As for the ending plot....I don't want to give anything away, but I didn't like how it turns out. I should clarify - I liked everything about the plot EXCEPT the ending. Even if you succeded in your quest, Bad Things happen to the Castle. Things which you can't prevent and things which the authors shouldn't have included. Again, just my opinion, so take it for what you will.

    One last recommendation - if you have a copy of 'Ruins of Greyhawk', dig it out of storage and have it handy while reading and/or running 'Expedition to Ruins of Greyhawk'. I think that between the two books (and updating some of the older modules related to the Ruins) it would be possible to construct one hell of a long term campaign. Also, again I strongly urge you to find a copy of Dungeonland and Isle of the Ape and update them to the 3.5 rule set. Also, if you can get a copy of the Maure castle adventures from Dungeon magazine (paizo should have a list on their website somewhere), you could easily tie it all together for one large uber-adventure.

    Again, a 'Expedition' is well worth the price. But I feel like the writers sacrificed more than a few critical pieces of information in order to meet a pre-determined book length/format. I would have prefered a bit more detail in some areas....but aside from that quibble, I'd rate it a good buy.
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:02 pm  

    EileenProphetofIstus wrote:
    I really disliked the ending if the characters succeed. No more Castle Greyhawk in the Flanaess.....How can this be. How can you have Greyhawk with no castle?


    This is really disapointing. The last chapter was one of my sections of the book (although Erik helped design the Hall of Memory), but in my turnover, Castle Greyhawk didn't go anywhere. You'll note at the very end of the adventure a section called "Continuing the Adventure" that lists several other subplots; in my final turnover, there was an entry for "The Wandering Dungeon" that I put in at WotC's request for a mechanic that would allow Castle Greyhawk to "manifest" on other worlds. In "The Wandering Dungeon," the end plays out the same but instead of transporting Castle Greyhawk away from the world, it turns it into a sort of planar nexus, a castle that manifests on multiple worlds at the same time. Sort of like the World Serpent Inn. But it explicitly kept the castle where it started, in Greyhawk. AND, like the other "Continuing the Adventure" entries, it was presented more as an option than anything else.

    But, when you get down to it, Greyhawk IS owned by WotC, so they can do with it as they wish. I think having the Castle move out of the world is a terrible idea, personally, and for fans of the setting I'd suggest ignoring that whole section completely. It's not how I intended the adventrue to end, that's for sure, and it frustrates me quite a lot. Enough to finally get around to creating an account here, which I suppose is a good thing. :)

    James Jacobs
    Editor-in-Chief: Pathfinder


    Last edited by JJacobs on Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
    GreySage

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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:04 pm  

    weaver95 wrote:
    Too thin to be playable IMHO, but with some work (and illegal .pdf copies scavenged from the net)


    Or legal ones. Dungeonland and 'Land Beyond the Magic Mirror' are both free downloads from the WotC website. 'Isle of the Ape' is $4.00 at paizo.com.
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:10 pm  
    On Lame Last-Minute Changes

    I agree with James. What a lame edit at the end there. That's disappointing.

    By my read, though, you only have to ignore a couple sentences on the second-to-last page, so it could have been a lot worse. Aside from a handful of times when the art doesn't even come close to matching the descriptions in the book (black dragon and Captain Gollancz, I'm looking at you), Wizards doesn't seem to have added any major errors into the book, which is a relief.

    Anyway, here's hoping that last minute ill-advised change doesn't ruin too many people's enjoyment of the book. It goes without saying that we would have loved more space to play with, but you get what they offer in this case, and we tried to make it the best product possible under the circumstances.

    --Erik
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:10 pm  

    rasgon wrote:

    Or legal ones. Dungeonland and 'Land Beyond the Magic Mirror' are both free downloads from the WotC website. 'Isle of the Ape' is $4.00 at paizo.com.


    well presumably so, yes. I just point out the options, people make their choices.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:26 pm  

    If the worst thing about the book is the ending, I'm sure the collective creativity here on CF can come up with a better one. Postfest anyone? Rewrite the ending?

    If I was extremely cynical, I would suggest that the Castle is removed from Greyhawk so that it can become part of a core / default presentation, like Tenser's spells and certain gods, etc. "Castle Greyhawk" is then available to be played in Eberron! Wooo! By transferring the best parts of Greyhawk out of Greyhawk, the IP owners can reap the benefit without actually having to support the setting. Good thing I am not actually that cynical.
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:37 pm  

    I think that's clearly the intention (Eberron is mentioned explicitly, as is Mystara). I don't object to this option being made available, btw. There is obvious value in including a Castle Greyhawk disassociated from its traditional setting trappings, and it's Wizards of the Coast's right to do this since they own Castle Greyhawk lock, stock, and barrel.

    But I'd advocate leaving a permanent copy behind, so that Greyhawk traditionalists get to keep the castle for which the setting is named.

    In any event, like I said this involves ignoring a paragraph of text, tops, so please don't let it dissuade you from checking out the product. I've been reading it over tonight, and it's very enjoyable (if I do say so myself!).

    --Erik
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    Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:16 pm  

    JJacobs wrote:
    But, when you get down to it, Greyhawk IS owned by WotC, so they can do with it as they wish. I think having the Castle move out of the world is a terrible idea, personally, and for fans of the setting I'd suggest ignoring that whole section completely. It's not how I intended the adventrue to end, that's for sure, and it frustrates me quite a lot. Enough to finally get around to creating an account here, which I suppose is a good thing. :)

    James Jacobs
    Editor-in-Chief: Pathfinder


    I like the planar nexus idea, consider that one assimilated!

    Overall, I liked the book. I can take what I've already used/developed, tie it in with what Dungeon magazine had put together in various issues and plug it into one super large, comprehensive adventure that takes my players wherever they want to go, all based off of what you wrote.

    My only quibble (and as I said, it's a relatively minor quibble), is that depth was sacrificed for width. Understandable, if regretable just the same.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 12:44 am  

    James and Eric:
    Thanks for taking the time to respond to the emails left by fans of Greyhawk. Your opinions and input are always an asset and I for one hope you both find the time and interest to visit Canonfire more frequently. Not only will it expand Greyhawk (which is why were here) but it also allows you to get to know the biggest Greyhawk fans out there.

    I fully understand your space requirements and felt that overall, it was an excellent job. Thanks for letting us know where you stood on the objectionable ending. Eric your right, we only need to ignore 1-2 sentances, which in a home campaign is very easy to do.

    All in all, I just wanted to say thanks for the great Greyhawk product and I hope you guys, the regulars of Canonfire, and myself can one day produce more official content.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:51 am  
    Re: On Lame Last-Minute Changes

    iquander wrote:
    Anyway, here's hoping that last minute ill-advised change doesn't ruin too many people's enjoyment of the book. It goes without saying that we would have loved more space to play with, but you get what they offer in this case, and we tried to make it the best product possible under the circumstances.--Erik


    And you did VERY well, at least in the opinion of this obscure and minor web commentator anyways. I'm forced to wonder at the reasons for the last minute (and heavy handed) ending that WoTC slapped onto the end of the campaign. It seemed artifical and contrived when I first read it, and now reading what you and James wrote i'm forced to wonder WHY they added it. It's obviously not what you wanted when you finished the book. Any thoughts on their reasons?

    In larger terms (and slightly off topic) that sort of attitude is exactly what makes me cautions with regards to WoTC's 'gleemax' web portal. Heavy handed and autocratic editorital decisions for reasons known only to the corporate types, sacrificing artistic integrety in support of some obscure corporate goal.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:18 am  

    Weaver95

    You hit it right on the head with your heavy handed comment, WOTC and Gleemax. As Eric and James pointed out WOTC owns it, they can do what they want.
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    Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 8:18 am  

    I suspect that they want the opportunity to keep Castle Greyhawk, the first-ever mega-dungeon, in the mix for potential products down the road without being forced to also publish the entire campaign setting. As a publisher myself I can surely understand the appeal of that approach, but as a Greyhawk fan I'm disappointed there's not an official option for leaving the castle where it is. There is in my campaign, obviously. :)

    In a sense, this is what they did with Castle Ravenloft in the first adventure in this series. Except in that case they made the change right from the start, choosing to update it as a "stand-alone" adventure rather than as part of the Ravenloft campaign setting. I'm not even sure the setting is mentioned at all in that book, so the approach they gave us ("set it in the world of Greyhawk") was obviously superior.

    I'm still reading through the early chapters, and I've found very few changes, and nothing substantive. So far it reads well, in my biased opinion, and I'm quite pleased with the book.

    --Erik
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 9:18 am  

    iquander wrote:
    I suspect that they want the opportunity to keep Castle Greyhawk, the first-ever mega-dungeon, in the mix for potential products down the road without being forced to also publish the entire campaign setting. As a publisher myself I can surely understand the appeal of that approach, but as a Greyhawk fan I'm disappointed there's not an official option for leaving the castle where it is. There is in my campaign, obviously. :)
    --Erik


    Hmm...then why not go with the 'nexus of all realities' approach as previously mentioned?

    Rhetorical question, I suppose. In all probablity we'll never really know the answer to any of our questions regarding WoTC's decision to change the ending you and the others had written. Later on down the road, as they reveal their plans for the game, we might be able to hazard a guess. But for the short term I'm guessing we'll have to live with being in the dark.

    That aside, what concerned me most is the autocratic attitude. That mindset could very well be applied to how WoTC adminstrates the new 'gleemax' portal site. Again, slightly off topic, but something noting just the same.

    Thank you for taking the time to answer our questions. And you guys did a bang up job on the book! I just have to go dig up my old copies of 'isle of the ape' and 'dungeonland' and update them to modern rules. Not to mention dusting off the 'Maure castle' issues of Dungeon magazine for the inevitable tie in later on down the road. I think 'Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk' is going to be the centerpiece to my evolving GH campaign.
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:23 am  

    iquander wrote:
    I think that's clearly the intention (Eberron is mentioned explicitly, as is Mystara).


    Mystara, really? While it seems to retain a more active and vibrant fanbase on the internet than Birthright or Spelljammer, I would've thought it'd be a step down from Greyhawk as far as "settings WotC cares about supporting" goes. It seems like they'd be more likely to say "Maybe Castle Greyhawk stays on Oerth" than "Maybe it goes to Mystara." I'm honestly kind of shocked to see even a name-drop of the latter setting in a WotC hardcover.

    In any case, I don't particularly mind the castle taking a worldwalking jaunt, as long as it eventually comes back home.
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 10:37 am  

    That would make a great next module, the return of the castle... a quest for player characters.
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    Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:51 pm  

    rasgon wrote:


    In any case, I don't particularly mind the castle taking a worldwalking jaunt, as long as it eventually comes back home.


    Indeed, that does go along with Zagig, as the Ship of Fools does the same thing. But it seems rather silly, and easily ignorable, to have the Castle barred from re-entering Greyhawk.
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:55 am  

    Quote:
    Mystara, really? While it seems to retain a more active and vibrant fanbase on the internet than Birthright or Spelljammer, I would've thought it'd be a step down from Greyhawk as far as "settings WotC cares about supporting" goes. It seems like they'd be more likely to say "Maybe Castle Greyhawk stays on Oerth" than "Maybe it goes to Mystara." I'm honestly kind of shocked to see even a name-drop of the latter setting in a WotC hardcover.


    Makes it seem sometimes like WOTC just really dosent like GH doesnt it. Is there some greater problem for WOTC, a conflict in intellectual property, hatred for EGG, or something else not readily apparent? I know GH Fans are not huge in number, but it does seem we get short shrift often. Seems like they are turning out the lights on Greyhawk doesn't it?
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 8:23 am  

    I don't think so. I think someone over there is just covering all the bases.

    Way too much angst has been spilled over this already. There are thousands of other paragraphs to discuss. :)

    --Erik
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:57 am  

    Yes, but I dont have my copy yet... so I cannot really discuss it yet. I will with glee when I have it Happy
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 10:56 am  

    Actually, Iquander (I'm going by your handle, 'cause I'm not sure whether to call you "Erik" or "Mr. Mona" -- hope you don't mind Smile ), I did have a couple of questions about the adventure:

    1) The Orb of Opposition seems to be something of a "Mirror, Mirror/Spock wears a goatee in that universe" artifact as described in Expedition, and took a LE doppleganger from an alternate Oerth named Billaro to replace Robilar. Two unrelated questions on that:
    1) Is this the same Billaro who created (or at least lent his name to) the Iron Bands?
    2) Given that Robilar was LE to begin with, how exactly was the double supposed to differ (outside of the whole joining with Rary thing and the prediliction for cast-iron horses over green dragons Smile )?

    2) What (if it's permissible to tell) were some of the things you were dying to put in but were either asked not to by Wizards or couldn't because of space considerations?


    Last edited by Pat_Payne on Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:48 pm; edited 2 times in total
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:00 am  

    Well now having the book I see there is much to discuss with regards to prior GH canon and even speculative future events. (i.e. things authors can tackle here) Without getting into specifics now that would spoil the book, I have two minor gripes that may have came because I have not bought one of these Expedition mods before and the fact I've ran nothing but Adventure Paths for quite a while.

    The delve format is weird to me. It felt weirder to read than I have heard it described, a space eating format. The book blatantly says the encounters are set up this way to support use of minis, yadda yadda. Go Wizards. That's you.

    The other gripe is that the book suffers from 'adventure path mentality'. Besides the opportunity for many side quests which is fine, the main plot of the book exploring the three dungeons of Castle Greyhawk, as presented is done in a linear fashion. What I mean is in GH Ruins you could pretty much attack whichever of the three you wanted in whatever order, this one has a prescribed order (including jaunts in GH City) that fits a rather cool overall plot otherwise.

    Despite the gripes it's still a must have book.
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:34 pm  

    Eric
    One of Pat Pyne's questions:

    What (if it's permissible to tell) were some of the things you were dying to put in but were either asked not to by Wizards or couldn't because of space considerations?

    It would be interesting to hear what you folks had hoped to include. As said before, I think you guys did an overall great job. Anything more you could pass on about ideas cut or unable to squeeze in would be interesting to hear as well as any other Castle Greyhawk lore you have to pass on.

    Again, thanks for you efforts, I realize that many posts point out things that fans would have liked or not liked but most also gave it good to great reviews. When this topic started it was no surprise that there would be some comments because it is a book that Greyhawk fans have been waiting on for a very long period of time and any official Greyhawk items from WOTC is pretty much unheard of.

    I realize that you have the opportunity to work with WOTC and being more involved in publishing than the average Greyhawk fan so your insights and opinions are going to be different than those purchasing it in the store, that's quite reasonable. Perhaps WOTC made good business decisions from your point of view (I don't know). I'm guessing that a bit of animosity has built up over the years concerning WOTC and Greyhawk fans which is exactly why things like Canonfire and Oerth Journal exist in the first place, to fill the gap where the publisher left off.

    So don't be dissapointed with the readers. Overall, they loved your work. It's WOTC that is bothering many of the fans. Your efforts are more than appreciated.

    Here's hoping that there will be more true Greyhawk to come in the future!
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    Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:27 pm  

    Pat_Payne wrote:
    1) The Orb of Opposition seems to be something of a "Mirror, Mirror/Spock wears a goatee in that universe" artifact


    Yep. And note that Mordenkainen has a goatee. I wonder if he touched the orb at some point?

    It would have been interesting to tie the Plane of Mirrors with Uerth/anti-Oerth, since it was the Mirrormasters of Lynn who created the Orb. I guess that's implied.

    Uerth is a can of worms, isn't it? Its existence has been implied for a long time, what with the way the Plane of Mirrors works (and, really, the Mirror of Opposition). Does Uerth have a version the Abyss populated with a chaotic good Graz'zt, Orcus, and Demogorgon who are the best of friends? Does the world have a good version of Iuz? Did Zagig's evil-leaning duplicate imprison the good version of Iuz in his own castle, or did the fact that he was imprisoned by our own Zagig mean Uerth's history took a radically different course, no longer as parallel as it's supposed to be?

    All of this bolsters my horrible theory that Mayaheine is in fact Iuz from a parallel version of Oerth. Mwa ha ha.

    I note that it only says Castle Greyhawk travels to other worlds "for a time." That means it might eventually come back on its own, the attraction of the Earthstone retethering it once the magical shock of the finale had faded. It's not permanent by any means.

    Maybe the world Castle Greyhawk travels to is Uerth? Since Xagig, who is the "evil" Zagig (presumedly chaotic neutral with evil tendencies, really) never got around to building a Castle Greyhawk on his own world, the castle might be naturally drawn there in an attempt to address the cosmic imbalance created by the negative Company of Seven's imprisonment. That'd actually be a pretty great way to use that paragraph - the PCs might end up transported to Uerth along with the castle, and have to find a way home.

    It looks like the names of the nine demigods are still not fully revealed. Good.

    I see that a lung dragon was included for the sake of finally giving the Celestial Imperium a canon name.

    Anti-Robilar must indeed be the Bilarro who the Iron Bands are named for.

    The adventure takes care to hit all the 1e sweet spots: the place where Fraz-Urb'luu was imprisoned, Dungeonland, the Isle of the Ape. And the climax of all the machinations takes place in the prison of the nine demigods, which is much more dramatic than it was in Greyhawk Ruins.

    It's kind of strange seeing all the demons in the adventure, since the 2e version had none at all (only a reference to an "elemental creature of hte Abyss" that wasn't even there anymore, since this was the height of TSR's ban against demons of any kind, before there were tanar'ri to use instead).

    Not nearly as many new converted monsters as I expected, just the aurumvorax and cataboligne, though the cataboligne was handled very well.

    There was a little more development on Oerth's Underdark. We learn the name of an illithid city, and that there's a way to get to the Greydark from the Northdark. So to speak.

    Ties to Castle Maure, Age of Worms, Savage Tide, and Fiendish Codex I. The favor the PCs owe Iggwilv at the end of Savage Tide? Ruins of Greyhawk gives you an example of how she'll collect.

    Tasha is Iggwilv. That's certainly different from Chatdemon's ideas.

    Murlynd was explicitly a visitor to the Boot Hill setting, rather than merely implicitly. Also, apparently he was a wizard before he became a paladin? At least, the evil duplicate of his younger self was.

    The idea that Castle Maure was founded by nine apprentices of Slerotin is firmly enshrined. Some people had problems with that retcon. I suppose Urnst could've still been founded by Suel Firstcomers, and the apprentices might've arrived later.

    This adventure is so extremely Greyhawk that it seems like it'd be almost impossible to convert to another campaign world. Not only would you have to painstakingly change all the distinctively City of Greyhawk things to whatever other city you're using, but you'd have to do things like figure out what to replace Iggwilv with, and Robilar with, and Mordenkainen, Zagyg, Keoghtom, Quaal, Iuz, the Twin Cataclysms, and a million other things with. On the other hand, it seems like it wouldn't be hard to replace the vaguely defined levels of Castle Greyhawk with levels from Expedition to Undermountain, turning Halaster Blackcloak into the Grandfather of Magic guy, assuming you're hard up for dungeon levels. I can't imagine using the Castle Greyhawk levels anywhere else, though individual traps and tunnels can be scavenged if you're desperate. Not a problem for people here, though!

    Anyway, not remotely a generic adventure, but plenty of easter eggs for all.
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    Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:13 am  

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2163&highlight=xagig&sid=f8dafcc3819328c7a291f1f080f78af1

    I'm onto you Iquander! It seems he has slipped Xagig into Greyhawk well before this latest publication...
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:25 am  

    A quick aside on names. I get the Robilar - Bil(l)arro anagaram.

    Who could the cunning General At-Ur Rehmat be? Is it some reale person ala Zagyg/Gygax? Or is it a pun?

    Are there any other new ones?


    Last edited by Thanael on Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:24 am  
    Mondo Bilarro

    I'll note that Bilarro is also the name of the former ruling house of Highport, as referenced in Slavers.

    Cat, meet pigeons. :)
    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Aug 15, 2007 9:40 am  

    !@&$*!@*! all I STILL cannot get ahold of a copy. UPS has sent my copy into the ethereal!
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    Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:24 pm  
    Re: Mondo Bilarro

    Woesinger wrote:
    I'll note that Bilarro is also the name of the former ruling house of Highport, as referenced in Slavers.

    Cat, meet pigeons. :)
    Ah nice find Woesinger, sadly that makes more sense for the origin of the Iron Bands of Bilarro than what we get in Expedition. Another blemish for continuity perhaps?
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    Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:39 pm  
    Re: Mondo Bilarro

    mortellan wrote:
    Woesinger wrote:
    I'll note that Bilarro is also the name of the former ruling house of Highport, as referenced in Slavers.

    Cat, meet pigeons. :)
    Ah nice find Woesinger, sadly that makes more sense for the origin of the Iron Bands of Bilarro than what we get in Expedition. Another blemish for continuity perhaps?


    Who knows? It might be a cooincidence -- the Bilarros of Highport may be totally unrelated to the Bilarro who is the anti-Robilar and yet still not be continuity-busting. Just as there are Lees all over the world, only a handful of whom who can claim descent from Light Horse Harry and Robert E.
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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:36 am  
    Re: Mondo Bilarro

    [quote="Pat_Payne"][quote="mortellan"]
    Woesinger wrote:
    I'll note that Bilarro is also the name of the former ruling house of Highport, as referenced in Slavers.

    ::Snip ::

    Who knows? It might be a cooincidence -- the Bilarros of Highport may be totally unrelated to the Bilarro who is the anti-Robilar and yet still not be continuity-busting. Just as there are Lees all over the world, only a handful of whom who can claim descent from Light Horse Harry and Robert E.


    Absolutely! But does this mean that the city of Lowplain on Uerth wasn't ruled by the House of Robilar? Happy

    P.
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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:40 am  
    Re: Mondo Bilarro

    mortellan wrote:
    Woesinger wrote:
    I'll note that Bilarro is also the name of the former ruling house of Highport, as referenced in Slavers.

    ::Snip ::

    Who knows? It might be a cooincidence -- the Bilarros of Highport may be totally unrelated to the Bilarro who is the anti-Robilar and yet still not be continuity-busting. Just as there are Lees all over the world, only a handful of whom who can claim descent from Light Horse Harry and Robert E.


    Absolutely! But does this mean that the city of Lowplain on Uerth wasn't ruled by the House of Robilar? Happy

    P.


    Good point. Happy
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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 2:49 pm  

    Anced_Math wrote:
    Makes it seem sometimes like WOTC just really dosent like GH doesnt it. Is there some greater problem for WOTC, a conflict in intellectual property, hatred for EGG, or something else not readily apparent? I know GH Fans are not huge in number, but it does seem we get short shrift often. Seems like they are turning out the lights on Greyhawk doesn't it?


    I just got back from Gencon today and am catching up on things.

    AM,

    In my judgment, you are correct. At Gencon, I attended 5 seminars concerning the new 4E. In four of the five, GH came up. Each time it did Bill Slavisek and/or Andy Collins got a look on their faces like they had just tasted something awful and their comments, while polite, all but dripped with "won't GH just go AWAY!" I'd say there is an animus there by the body language and intonation I observed and heard.
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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:00 pm  

    Hey GVD... Glad to have you back!

    Well, at least they won't be mucking it up in the future. I still dont have my copy of ETCGH. I even went in search of a copy at a local book store and couldn't find one! It must be something I have done. WOTC hasn't produced anything I wanted this bad in years... and I cannot find it.

    Can someone tell me the CY of the game as set in ECGH?
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:00 pm  

    GH will only truly be dead, if people stop caring and judging by GVD post the oldest setting has plenty of life yet. Smile

    Btw: Erik, I think I can speak for the vast majority of posters here and say: we all appreciate and admire your efforts and dedication to keep GH active.

    I look forward to the day when you acquire the GH license...
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