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    Canonfire :: View topic - Footprints 11
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Footprints 11
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:33 am  
    Footprints 11

    http://www.dragonsfoot.org/files/pdf/FootprintsNo11.pdf

    Check it out! 1e "Gygaxian" classes by DMPrata and a mini adventure for Big T.
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    Plar of Poofy Pants
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    Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:58 pm  

    Oh my god. The hypocrasy of Dragonsfoot knows no end.

    The Hidden Shrine of Tharizdun adventure originally appeared here on canonfire, a few years ago. When I linked to it on Dragonsfoot, I was told it was off topic for that site.

    It's very sad to see that due to the outcry over there over a very minor reference to a 2e/3e era GH product in the original version of that mini-adventure, the author felt the need to withdraw it from this site and edit it to pander to them.
    Adept Greytalker

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    From: the Free City of Dyvers (Kansas City, MO)

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    Sat Sep 22, 2007 9:18 pm  

    Definitely brought out some nostalgia, there. I have to ask; what's the problem here? I djust found out about dragonfoot via this thread, and ratlord seems to have some negative feeling about it/them. What's the deal?
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    Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:25 pm  

    gargoyle wrote:
    Definitely brought out some nostalgia, there. I have to ask; what's the problem here? I djust found out about dragonfoot via this thread, and ratlord seems to have some negative feeling about it/them. What's the deal?


    DF has a long history of being extremely insular to the point where discussion of different game systems has been discouraged or outright banned either completely or outside of specified fora. The mere mention of D&D 3x was, for a time, grounds for banning (yes, really).

    Ultimately, the DF community is known best for both its organized incursions to other forums (notably ENWorld and RPGnet) with the intent of inciting flamewars and its extremely hostile attitude toward non-D&D games and editons of AD&D/D&D that followed AD&D 1e.

    On a more personal note. . .

    I have some degree of sympathy for DF, as its closed-minded and often aggressively hateful community consistently overshadows many of its own most noteworthy accomplishments (e.g., Chris Gonnerman, a DF mod, being nominated for an ENnie Award due to his work on the free-press Basic Fantasy RPG).

    I can sincerely say that I think this is a shame. I'm a huge fan of the aforementioned Basic Fantasy RPG, for instance, though its association with DF might as well be the Dim Mak Death Touch in terms of building a fanbase (it has been avoided by many whom I know based on that association).

    [Edit: Everything suddenly makes a lot more sense. Unless I'm mistaken, Ratlord was banned from DF in a rather prolific display of the aforementioned edition discrimination that I mention. His offense? Posting a link to an adventure/article that mentioned Monte Cook. Shocked]
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 23, 2007 5:24 am  

    As a frequent visitor/poster at both Dragonsfoot and Canonfire!, I think this "rivalry" is pointless and, frankly, idiotic. Dragonsfoot is and will remain the home of 1st Edition AD&D® (with room for BECMI, 2E, and C&C, all of which are similar in spirit). Canonfire! is the home of Greyhawk, regardless of rule set. 3.xE and now 4E are off-topic at Dragonsfoot, and posters of such topics should expect the same warm reception there as someone who comes to Canonfire! asking about how best to set Temple of Elemental Evil in the Realms. When I want to discuss AD&D®, I go to Dragonsfoot. When I want to discuss Greyhawk, I come here. I fail to see the conflict.

    ratlord, I think your claim of hyprocrisy is a little unwarranted. I'd be inclined to guess that John Turcotte (Footprints' editor) was not personally aware that the Tharizdun adventure had previously been published elsewhere; in fact, DF's submission guidelines explicitly discourage this. If the author felt the need to submit his adventure to two different sites, that's his call and hardly speaks to a far-reaching conspiracy to screw over CF.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 23, 2007 6:43 am  

    Thanks for the info and insight, jdrakeh. Wow. What a pity. My current game group has fans of FR, Eberron, Dark Sun, the Scarred Lands, Greyhawk, and Dragonlance. We have our arguements, and our disagreements, but we all still manage to find a common ground - D&D.
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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:26 am  

    Yes system wars, high handedness, and other nerdary seems to rathedr self defeating. I understand that some people might have sore feelings and feel abandoned by the Powers that be. which is a shame really, because these classes seem like a lot of fun, and i often wish i had the ability to return to my beloved 1e AD&D.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 7:32 am  

    Arnok wrote:
    Yes system wars, high handedness, and other nerdary seems to rathedr self defeating. I understand that some people might have sore feelings and feel abandoned by the Powers that be. which is a shame really, because these classes seem like a lot of fun, and i often wish i had the ability to return to my beloved 1e AD&D.


    I never left 1e.

    For the last few years I've been emphasizing inteligence gathering in clerics and MUs. It was nice to see DMPrata's take on those subclasses. For my purposes, they just might set some use. Thanks, DMP.
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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:00 am  

    I have to say I always wanted to see the Mystic and the Savant (as well as the Witch) that Gygax had promised would be in the Advanced D&D game (mentioned in the boxed set I first received) in 1E/AD&D format. It was definitely nice to see; I have to say, though, that the Oracle has both classes beat. Cool
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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 8:45 am  
    Author Hipocrisy

    ratlord wrote:
    The Hidden Shrine of Tharizdun adventure originally appeared here on canonfire, a few years ago. When I linked to it on Dragonsfoot, I was told it was off topic for that site.

    I remember when The Hidden Shrine of Tharizdun was hosted here (I was a much more active admin). Back then the author was a fledgling writer. He said he as moving on to writing text for conventional publication and he did not want his budding career associated with Dungeons & Dragons. I guess he thought having his little Tharizdun piece would adversely affect his professional writing career.

    So, I wonder if the author had some problem with Canonfire! and merely wanted us to remove the content so he could share it exclusively with someone else.

    Whatever the case, it's good to see that little bit of Greyhawkness out there again.

    Don (Greyson)
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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:08 pm  

    jdrakeh wrote:
    His offense? Posting a link to an adventure/article that mentioned Monte Cook. Shocked]


    Indeed, the article referencing Monte Cook, which led to that uproar on the DF greyhawk forum, and the inane "whats on topic here" rules they now have in that forum is this very adventure. Being an expansion of a classic 1e module, written in 1e rules, I thought the people of DF forum might be interested. I was wrong.

    Greyson is correct, the arcticle was removed because the author claimed he was going into non-rpg writing and was afraid having rpg material would somehow sour that.

    I think anyone who wants to step in and say there is no hypocrasy at DF really needs to look at the whole picture.
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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 12:15 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    3.xE and now 4E are off-topic at Dragonsfoot, and posters of such topics should expect the same warm reception there as someone who comes to Canonfire! asking about how best to set Temple of Elemental Evil in the Realms.


    Please get your facts straight. The Tharizdun mini adventure, now and when it appeared here and I linked to it from DF's gh forum, was a 1st edition AD&D adventure. It has never been published, as far as I know, in any other edition. The original including a rather verbose introduction dedicating it to Gygax and the legacy of the published Tharzidun adventure. What made DFers hate it? One throw away line indicating that a magic item included in the adventure was inspired by something monte wrote in Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. ONE LINE.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 25, 2007 2:13 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    3.xE and now 4E are off-topic at Dragonsfoot. . .


    Well, that's not entirely true. At DF, there are frequent and sometimes lengthy discussions of how horrible these games and the people who play them are (the community actually coined the perjorative "3etard" in the course of such discussions). Likewise, you can dicuss converting 3x products for use with earlier editions of AD&D (but, last I knew, this was the only context in which 3x products could be mentioned there).

    The rules as to what's off-topic and what isn't at DF are somewhat complex (and oftentimes unwritten). For instance, I was told by DF mods that discussing The Fantasy Trip was verboten in any context (more correctly, when starting a single thread that asked how one might incorporate something like the rules TFT for downtime into AD&D I was accused of trying to subvert the forum into TFT fandom).

    I love old school games and, as one of the two people who nominated Chris Gonnerman for the Ennies, I think it's safe to say that I have a sincere admiration for some of the material that the DF community has produced. That said, I tend to agree with Ratlord where the actual tone of the community is concerned. I think that it's overly hostile, often without good justification, despite the efforts of some mods (okay, well one mod) to curb such temperment.
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