The Living Greyhawk Gazateer to a very large degree consolidated the known information on each nation etc. of the Flanaess and made that information available to the broad public. It advanced the setting marginally after GH98 (Flight of Fiends, tAB etc.). Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk materially affected the overall story arc of the Flanaess almost not at all. So with this background, how might a GH be presented in its next incarnation?
Option No. 1 (More of the Same Slightly Changed GH)- A gazatteer of the Flanaess presents the Flanaess much like the LGG did back in 2000 with, again, some marginal updating and perhaps incorporating (if imaginable/possible in the page count) more detail.
Option No. 2 (Big Timeline Advanced GH)- A gazatteer of the Flanaess advances the timeline 50 to 100 years and presents a much changed/evolved Flanaess with new villains, new adventure hooks, new storylines etc. in the 50+ or 100+ year timeframe. Reimagining occurs only in the presentation of the 50+ or 100+ year "present time." The past remains the known, canon, past. Only the timeline advanced future is new, _but this is time period described_ - the new timeline advanced future. Past history is not repeated, save as necessary to explain the new timeframe.
Option No. 3 (Reimagined Variant GH) - A gazatteer of the Flanaess restarts the setting by reimagining GH from the ground up. While many familiar elements are retained, most are repositioned or changed in some way. Its GH but a different or variant version of GH. This is the Battlestar Gallactica model. Everything is rearranged or at least any number of familiar GH elements are rearranged to create a familiar but variant GH. The exact timeframe is not all that significant because of the reimagining of the GH setting in it particulars.
Option No. 4 (GH Old and New) - A gazatteer of the Flanaess compromises and describes/consolidates canon GH in 576 CY and/or 591 CY but also describes a "future" GH at a CY date 25+ years after 591CY.
Other options? Thoughts?
Note to Admins - This is NOT a 4e thread. It is rules neutral. _________________ GVD
I would love to see the original greyhawk time period redone to flesh it out and make the troop and race numbers make sense.
In particular the demi human race numbers are way off. Dwarves have "numerous" holds listed in almost every mountain chain but no population figures or cities listed in any of them. The Lortmils in particular scream for a separate listing of cities in the underdark.
The population figures also give me fits with the Great Kingdom having 5 million while Furyondy have 350,000.
Orcs and humanoids also get short mention for populations. They can't be a major threat if there aren't many of them. I would love to see Giants, Ogres and Trolls get some population in the Mountians, forest, marshes, etc.
I usually use my roleplaying to set up my wargaming for greyhawk. Right now I am trying to make sense of the national army lists so I can refight the greyhawk wars with something that makes some kind of sense.
I'm probably in the minority, but I'd go with 'none of the above'. I really could care less if WotC ever publishes another GH sourcebook. I've not been particularly impressed by the quality of their writing and its very obvious that I'm not the sort of player who fits their target audience. So anything they publish would just be more stuff I need to rewrite and I'd rather just write the stuff myself instead.
Option 4, definitly. The setting needs to be moved beyond repeating itself. We've discussed some of it here, even. Iuz has become a punching bag of self-destruction, the elves continue to decline in their isolation, the giants are stalemated against Sterich and Geoff, and the Great Kingdom is stagnant. Eclavdra is still at large (depending on the events of the Liberation of Geoff), Rary messed over everyone, Robilar is . . . well, no one can quite make up their mind on that, and Tharizdun and the Scarlet Brotherhood are way overused. . .
So, keep the history. The history is good. Resolve a few things that keep 'reappearing' in the storyline. Push us forward a generation or so (25 years) and make the bad guys scary again. 25 years gives us newly discovered ruins, changes in state, new baddies, and a fresh outlook . . . without rehashing the old. _________________ Michael Erin Sandar Bard of Midwood
I'm going to have to be selfish in my opinions on the 4 options mentioned.
The first option offers very little that I don't already have.
The second is intriguing but would totally ruin a campaign that I have only recently got right where I want it. The third would do the same.
So, for me, the final option is the best as I see it at the moment (I remain open to persuasion, however). A consolidation of all the lore out there would be useful; an historical timeline describing what could happen over the following 25 or so years would be useful to me as I don't usually have the time for large scale fleshing out of the campaign and the focus of my game is quite localised, the pc's seldom getting involved in earth shaking events. Having them act out small scale dramas against the backdrop of world events has served me very well over the years.
The main sticking point for me is exactly who's going to be producing the material. I really can't see Wotc doing anything with Greyhawk that I would like; I'm basing this assessment on the snippets of fluff that have already been released about 4e. I'd rather have no new material at all, relying on the well thought out articles on this site and in OJ for my 'hawk fix, than third rate, production line stuff from "profits of the coast". Deliberately mis-spelt.
As presented, I'll choose Option 4 also. Though it is more of a jump than I'd prefer, it at least makes a point of preserving what has come before while it also jumps ahead a bit, which gives plenty of opportunity for not only fixing finicky things in Greyhawk, but done correctly it could provide enough information to play in any time period so far developed. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
None of the above. I'd prefer an updated LGG with less detail, but better organization and attractive full-color art.
More emphasis on the distinctive cultures and feels of the various lands, less time spent on reiterating what happened during the Greyhawk Wars and their aftermath.
Include a map of the nation next to every nation's entry, for easy reference. Include illustrations of prominent sites and terrain features in a way that will attract prospective customers to the setting. Dwell on interesting bits of history that people with less knowledge of the setting are interested about - the Wind Dukes of Aaqa, the Empire of Vecna, Iggwilv and Iuz. Spend less time on less interesting things like how the Sea Princes were conquered by the Scarlet Brotherhood.
Accept the setting for what it is and concentrate on showing how those things are cool. The Scarlet Brotherhood is a marine empire that uses magical breeding programs to create abominations. They have secretive agents who could be anywhere and anyone. That's cool. Geoff is full of hardened frontiersmen who fight giants. Iuz is in the thick of Abyssal politics - that's cool, too, Abyssal politics are one of Greyhawk's strengths.
Include maps of the Flanaess at various times in history.
Include an index.
I agree with Vormaerin that we don't really need a new setting book at all. This would be for the benefit of new players who are curious about the setting. It'd be nice to have an attractive, durable book that was easy to reference, but that wouldn't be the primary purpose.
Last edited by rasgon on Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
Given the choices GVD I would select option #4. Retaining the history to me is vital (though I would fix facts which contradict one another. Even if the advanced timeline isn't used in a current campaign, a short jump allows the DM to build towards it as they play throughout the next few years, that in itself, makes this idea worthwhile. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
I would definitely support Rasgon's ideas about detailed maps of individual nations or geographical features. In addition, the idea of an explanation of a nation's culture, beliefs and what makes that nation unique or special would be fantastic.
I also agree that this book won't be for us. So, therefore, we won't be getting any of the things we want unless we get it here.
It would be so nice to have all the things we love, nicely illustrated and presented, indexed and cross referenced where necessary. Sadly, I think it's just a pipedream. (Sob)
Honestly, my own WoG is so "variant" that anything WotC (or anyone else, for that matter) porduces is of differing levels of use. So, although I cast my vote for option 1, all that really matters to me is how good and useful the material is. _________________ Greyhawk is dead; long live Greyahwk! It is not heresy; I will not recant!
Hi all -
I voted for option 3. I like what BSG and Bionic Woman has done with their properties. I like the concept. It doesn't have to be Politically Correct, we're not on TV attempting to draw in 5million viewers. We're looking to attact a younger crowd while crotchety men that play Greyhawk discuss how it was when we were kids and yet not only retain them (us!) but get them to facilitate this re-imaging.
I love what Greyhawk is all about. For me it's the dungeon crawl. It's the names of people that are historical and created magical spells and items that aren't ancient - which shows that my wizard can also make cool stuff.
I dislike what TSR and now WotC has done with much of Greyhawk. Heck, many of us even question some of the stuff our founding father did. As we look back with our 20/20 hindsight we can find the flaws and the gems.
We can look at the history of the world as a whole and come to an understanding of why, after 600 years the world still hasn't traveled west. We can look at options that were un-thought of by Gary, Carl, Roger, sean, and even Erik (and company).
We need not re-tool it to fit an edition. When many of us started there were no Dwurian wizards/sorcerers, or Goliaths for that matter. With the latest editions we can create a world that better reflects what Greyhawk has been carved into. Because editions have changed, our Greyhawk doesn't. We can give reason to the rise of Dwur magicians, without force fitting a rule set. We can erase/combine three different Castle Greyhawk modules into one excellent version (even giving a level of silliness, if we wanted to honor it). We could deside if Broadhursts Doomgrider is the correct version or if it is sean's version.
We can keep the same basic timeline, yet offer insights into what is and will be happening. Making it easier for a campaign to start in CY 576 in any addition, instead of CY 576 typically slated for 1st edition gaming, allowing for a better understanding of the Animus situation in the Great Kingdom and how and why a major city has been destroyed (I'm guessing here, but wasn't Rel Astra destroyed? I recall it [or another major GK city] being on the Darlene maps and not on the LGG/Dungeon maps [except as a ruins]).
With a re-imaging we would be able to advance the basic timeline, giving rise to what is available and what can be foreseen, so that people are not staying within their own timelines yet are able to advance as they wish. This gives more than just the typical 576, 581, 591 and 59(x for LGG). This of course would make things harder for new writers, as they would be forced to write new things to fit within the expanded storylines - much like what is required now. However, this would be designed a bit easier, to allow this from the re-imaging concept.
I would propose that this NOT be a WOTC thing. I have long held that the authors of CF! have as much raw talent as sean reynolds ever had (he was their Web master back in the old AOL days of TSR that grew into a position as author). With the appropriate editing and the continued presence of self editors that make sure the new story lines match up (and allowing for deliberate mis-matches). It is this belief in the people of CF! that I started GreyhawkOnline.com and agreed to host and do what I can for the OJ (and OerthJournal.com). The OJ has been and will become the de facto currency for Greyhawk when it is dropped by TSR/WotC yet again. It was in the past. Heck, being a past contributor, editor and host, I know that more editing goes into an OJ than goes into most other print material by our other online competitors (all those other free/paid magazines).
Of course, this being Greyhawk this can never happen. Because we are already split by those that are EGG only-ers (DragonsFoot), those that accept Carl and Rogers stuff and a few items by Hoolian (extra O on purpose) and Mona (2nd edition). And those that like items from the Living Greyhawk Campaign, but can't keep up with all the massive modules to completely understand it all. In re-tooling Greyhawk we will have yet a new faction. One that calls for the heretics to be thrown to the fire (I would of course be one of these heretics and yet the one to throw others on the fire). Same goes with advancing the timeline in an "official" presentation.
However, this is all something that is already being done with regards to the OJ. Each time Rick has a new article he is either furthering the timeline or inserting new material that further mucks up the current setting in one way or another. By muck up, I don't mean the article is bad, but I mean that our setting is already so discombobulated [sic] and the fans reaction so disembodied that keeping any Greyhawk fan truly happy is such a hard feat that it would take a massive figurehead (i.e. Erik hempMONAland and Gary Hoolian would have to be supportive of the concept as well as be a forefront figure [much like what EM did with the Adventure Paths - he said this is my vision, now go forth and populate it with adventures [paraphrasing from his Dungeon statements regarding Kysus AP]).
My last thought to this is that because we are in the midst of a transition in rules - which means that we must now take into consideration of whether or not we allow Asmodius to be a god and other massive situations that could play havoc, the setting be prepared to be as rules generic as possible. The King of Sisak (yeah, I love the anagrams) would be listed as being the very powerful Theocrat Issak. He would be listed as having high levels in Cleric dedicated to Pholtus, minor skill in martial pursuits and two dogs. Minor stat blocks for each edition could be provided, but I would only suggest this in areas that actual players would have the need to know these type of details. Or even conceptual stat blocks that stated 1e a high lvl cleric is 12th lvl, in 2e it's 15th lvl, 3/3.5e it's 18th lvl and 4e it's 22nd lvl (I'm just making this up).
There is another thread somewhere about what would we do to re-image Greyhawk. I personally would pay money that I don't have to see this happen.
Be Well. Be Well re-written.
Theocrat Issak _________________ Theocrat Issak
I'd vote for a re-boot, because the 'Greyhawk' I use is heavily canon-independent in the first place. The only extant document my players can depend on for information is the little 32-page 'D&D Gazetteer' that WotC released around the beginning of the 3E stuff. Then, I give 'em a more detailed document of my own devise (well, my own cobbling together from varied sources, including my fevered imagination) describing their home/base town. That's really all they know about the world. A re-boot would be just fine with me.
Well, as long as we are doing some "wishful thinking"...
I'd like to see two LGG's: One would be "Classic Greyhawk" where the wars DON'T happen, and one be "Greyhawk Wars" where the wars DID happen. Two separate books. From there, advance the GHW book up to the advent of where 3e pops it's head in. At that point, diverge into two more books: "Grayhwak Wars Continued" (for the 2nd edition folks), and "Greyhawk, After the Wars" (for 3rd). That would give us, basically...
Book 1: Classic GH up to GHW
Book 2: GHW up to 3eGH
Book 3: 3EGH
This way GH fans could play in any 'age'. Classical Age would be 1e. Wars Age would be 2e. "Third" Age would be 3.x. And when 4e comes out, they could add another age that explains the changes.
But, this isn't likely to happen as I firmly believe that the people at WotC are primarily businessmen/marketers and not gamers...and that they have almost no real say in what goes on because Big Brother Hasbro is keeping a fixed and unblinking eye on WotC's bottom line.
Greetings all! I've been lurking around this site for a while, but only joined today. As for this survey, I voted for option 2. The advance in timeline seems to have the most potential for offering truly original material. I've spent a good bit of time musing about where Oerth would be in a hundred years, or in some distant, technological future.
Concerning the muddying of the waters: It's been a problem that has vexed the setting for a while and I don't think it will be resolved anytime soon. But I don't loose any sleep over it. In the last campaign I ran, I used the "Sliders" model of Oerth (as opposed the the "Battlestar" model). I proposed that there are a myriad of Oerths, some of which are very similar, while others are wildly different, but no one is the "true" Oerth. I even allowed the party to visit a couple of these alternate realities. It freed me from having to follow all of published material, and saved me from many arguments with fellow DM's about "canon."
Rasgon has a great point as far as how to put a new LGG together. I chose number 4 with the Rasgon LGG. Then WoTC could ome out with books like The Great Kingdom and all info pertaining to the great kingdom with maps of the different eras of the kingdom.
I personally have a varient Greyhawk I really don't need WoTC to make another variant. Heck I don't need anything from WoTC. However I think focusing on what made GH great in the past and continue with update resources for new players. Lets face it now that Living Greyhawk is dead what will draw in future fans to the setting.
Even though I voted for option 2, I must admit that my vote was predicated by my own personal desire for something completely new. I already have enough books, box sets, modules, pdfs, etc, that I could reboot Greyhawk, or run it in any of the time periods covered by Canon.
When one considers the future of the setting, Rasgon's idea is very enticing. I always thought that Greyhawk would be a more popular setting if it were packaged better. More maps, more artwork, more flavor. Don't get me wrong, the setting has lots of flavor, it just may not be readily apparent to beginners.
When I started playing back in the days of 1e, I knew that there was a world called "Greyhawk" from references in the DMG, but when I went to the local hobby store, I never saw any of the EGG Box Sets for sale. Seems that it was kind of underground even then. Then came Krynn, and then the Forgotten Realms, with the lush artwork, and the novels, and close up maps. It is little wonder that Greyhawk has struggled to stay a viable competitor all these years.
When 3e came along, and I learned that Greyhawk would be the default world, I had high hopes for the setting's development- at least a new Box Set, lushly illustrated with some nice maps, more detailed than before. It was not to be. WOTC started crayfishing away from Greyhawk as soon as 3e launched. Thank goodness for Living Greyhawk and online communities like this one.
Yes, I like the idea. A new kind of Gazeteer, that's more than a rehash of stuff in earlier printed material. In this age of pdf's, it's not necessary to reprint everything that has gone before. Pack it with good maps, cultural flavor, and lots of eye candy for the newbies. That may be just what the setting needs to help it survive this latest hibernation.
I read Rasgon's post carefully and I am in agreement. Drawing new players requires good packaging. I think most or all of the elements spoken of are very worthy of consideration when putting together such a project. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Everything is packaged better these days. Comparing the LGG to other material of its era, it is pretty sad looking. Other books are hardovers with full color pages and great interior artwork, and the LGG gets a great cover and inner covers with heraldry, but other than that nothing of note. Greyhawk just needs to be properly and comparatively marketed.
And yes, as rasgon mentioned, for the love of God put an index in there. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Considering that this new Gazeteer would be lacking a lot of "non essential" detail, I'd also include a thourough bibliogrophy, that included not only past published material, but web addresses for online resources. I'd also try to educate new players about how easy it is to track down and buy pdf's of out of print material. Make it clear that there is a wealth of lore out there, ripe for the picking! This would prevent some of the new players coming away with the impression that the setting is just a lot of "nice art work and fluff." The challenge of tracking down and sifting through this old esoteric lore may hold some appeal for the newly initiated, as it has for so many of us!
It would also help if the release of this Gazeteer coincided with the release of a major Hollywood production based on "The Temple of Elemental Evil," or some other such thing. Ha! We can dream, can't we?
Maybe just print one map- of the Flanneas, but something nice- Perhaps a removable fold out. But then I'd slip a CD Rom into the back cover, similar to what the 3e PHB did. Instead of a crappy character generator, make it an "Oerth Atlas." With 700 MB of space, this would be more than enough for maps of individual nations, maps of the ancient past, etc... This would make it easy for the DM to have access, but keep his (or her) players from eying things they shouldn't be looking at. The CD could include not only maps, but all info for the "DM's eyes only." That would leave a nice Players Reference in the form of a printed, richly illustrated Gazeteer.
Just so I'm not taken for a sucker, I want to make it clear that I know this is all "pipe dreamin'." None of this will happen unless we could pool our resources and buy the rights from TS..., uh, I mean Wizards.
I know this is a little off topic, but maybe someone here knows... I've seen some nice maps done (including the excellent ones "Dungeon") that use the hex coordinate system, but none line up with the original Darlene coordinates. Is there some issue of propriety or copyright that prevents modern Greyhawk cartographers from making their maps "Darlene compatible?" Just wondering. I've been working on this map and I don't want to release it if I'm infringing on someone else's propery rights...
The only thing I really want are new 1e mods to play and mine. Really looking forward to L4 and 5. I dont need a restatement or different take or new time. _________________ Plar of Poofy Pants
This poll has been up for a week and has gotten good response numbers for a non-front page poll.
There seems to be a fairly clear break down. Generalizing/rounding off -
About a quarter of respondents want a Greyhawk restatement with nothing much new added and no timeline advance.
About a quarter of respondents (choices 2 and 3) want a Greyhawk that is significantly different or new as compared to what has come before.
About a half of respondents want a Greyhawk that presents something new or has a timeline advance but which also cleaves to the history that has come before.
Further collating -
About three quarters of respondents (choices 2, 3 and 4) favor some degree of change or newness in a next generation/iteration Greyhawk product.
There is no clear majority, however, on any single option. Surprise! Greyhawkers are split to the degree that there is no majority of opinion!
A majority does exist (choices 2, 3 and 4) against those who want virtually no change and just a republishing of GH as it has been presented. These "status quo" folks (choice 1) appear to be in the minority, albeit still a quarter of all respondents. Most want some level or degree of newness and/or timeline advance.
There is also a majority (choices 1, 2 and 4) that favors maintaining some degree of continuity with the past presentation of Greyhawk in one way or another. A total start-over, reimagining (choice 3) seems to be in substantial minority.
One can't by process of elimination, however, find either choice 2 or 4 in the majority if one were to decide to say choices 1 and 3 were "eliminated" by the above, as neither choices 2 nor 4 has a majority. However, choices 2 and 4 can be said to form a slim majority in favor of a timeline advance.
Only choice 1 seems to be fairly well in substantial minority any way you slice it. Although it is the most favored option after choice 4.
I don't know of any reason that map makers do not make their maps "Darlene compatible", other than that they didn't think that much about it and did things their own way(and why wouldn't they?).
As to lots more artwork in the book, I would think that any setting book worth doing would be as big as the DMG. That's 320 pages, which ought to be plenty of space to cover Greyhawk in glorious full color detail(maps, et al.). Would you be willing to pay $45.00 or even $50 US for such a book though? I don't even need to think about the answer- YES!!! _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Hi all -
OK, so who is going to start this off. Who is going to come to the table with an update to the setting along the lines of what the Oerth Journal is able to accomplish?
Just wondering. 1st to call....NOT IT!
Be Well. Be Not It Well.
Theocrat Issak _________________ Theocrat Issak
I'd vote for 1 through 4 ;) The only way I'd give a second look at 4e is with GH support. That being said, I would rather not purchase 3 DMGs 3 PHs and 3 MMs just to play in the setting. 4e GH should use/require the DMG1, PH1, and MM1 only. Any missing classes; bard, monk, and so on should be rewritten exclusively for the setting. The same goes for missing monsters and races.
Otherwise, as I have no plans to invest in 4e, I'd prefer to keep GH as an OGL setting.
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