Is there any information regarding where the original city of Chendl might be and how long it was inhabited for? I believe that the Fate of Istus adventure states that the current capital was named after another city to the north that had since been abandoned but I no longer have my copy with me. It may or may not have said that it was on the shores of the Whyestil Lake.
It seems a little odd to me that a perfectly good city would be completely abandoned in favour of a new one. A village or small town yes, but not a settlement the size of a city. Is Crockport the original Chendl? Or perhaps Grabford? If not, does that mean that there is a significant ruin of a large town or small city somewhere in the north of Kalinstren or Crystalreach? To my knowledge the Marklands makes no mention of it anywhere.
There is plenty of historical precedent for new settlements being built on top of the foundations of old ones. It is also not unusual for people to make off with bits of buildings and walls (ie. the Coliseum) to help build their own abodes, pig pens etc. Scale of comparison notwithstanding, I like the idea of a smallish village set amidst the ruins of a larger city somewhere, kind of like Rome might have been about 1400 years ago...
I just looked up Chendl in Fate of Istus for you, and here is what it said:
Quote:
Chendl stands alone in the Flanaess as the only truly planned city. In days of old there was another city named Chendl nearby (in fact, near where Crockport now stands). But in the year 927 O.R. several decades after Furyondy was fomed, the king (then Thrommel III) decided he needed a new capital. Thus, a new Chendl was built;
I'm sure others will be able to give you far more detail than this, but it should answer your basic question. The rest of the text appeared to describe the current city of Chendl and no further mention of the original one. It did not give a reason why King Thrommel III chose to reconstruct a new city of Chendl. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
Huh, that's pretty interesting. I knew Chendl was a planned city but I did not know it was the second of its name. Dyvers was the old capital. They must've done something to peeve Thrommel so he made himself a whole new city. It would be funny if 'Old' Chendl had some nostalgic purpose to Thrommel III.
While I always encourage dungeon placement; their are several plausible reasons to relocate a city.
Near Crockport - perhaps it was too close or not close enough to Whyestil lake. To close flooding or even mouldy dampness not very regal. Too far away and it losses a major resource and revenue source; again an impovished capital doesn't make a good statement.
Furyondy wanted to make a statement - reason as simple as that - Royal family wanted a lavish imposing capital without ties to the GK. Such a decision does make a clear statement to everyone; that is the reason Washington DC was built.
There is also the old fan favorite explanation that the person who wrote tjat bit about Chendl in "Fate of Istus" simply had a bad idea, or didn't know that the previous capitol was Dyvers. Sadly, this explantion often has more merit than one would think. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
I for one like the idea of the foundations of a ruined Old Chendl on the shores of the lake. I'd like to digress from the notion briefly to tackle something else that just came to me. Crag raises a fair point about Washington D.C. My own nation's capital, Canberra, was founded because the other two dominant cities in Australia wouldn't allow the other to be the seat of federal government. It was a serious obstacle to Federation for a short time, overcome only when the decision was made to build a new city in a tiny seperate territory to either state so neither would have the advantage.
Could the King (Thrommel III?) who made the descision to abandon Dyvers as a capital have made a similar compromise? Perhaps the Great Families would have made it a condition of unification that none of their provincial capitals be made the national capital? That might explain why Fairwain province is so tiny (30 miles) compared to the rest of the provinces.
Or along a different line perhaps one Chendl was abandoned for another due to certain claims and promises that the Viceroy's family had made to his soon-to-be vassals among the Great Families. I don't have a map of the Flanaess handy but our discussion regarding the Heraldry of Furyondy gave me food for thought. If one were to take in Furyondy, the Highfolk, Veluna, the Northern Reaches, the Shield Lands and perhaps even Perrenland on a grand scale, how close would modern Chendl be to the centre of it all? I'm thinking empire-building here, which the Kings of Furyondy were interested in at some point. Does anyone know if Chendl was founded during Furyondy's expansionistic phase? All roads leading to Chendl, anyone?
How's this for a cheesy scenario! Imagine if you will, powerful nobles gather at an estate in a picturesque lake town, wheeling, dealing, intriguing and hammering out the conditions of a new nation soon to be ruled by the heir of their capable Viceroy. They have come here to plot because the Overking's spies are everywhere in the capital. Dyvers is unacceptable in the long run, a symbol of the Kingdom of Aerdi. All agree that it would be a sign of weakness to allow it to remain the heart of the new realm into perpetuity. But no one can agree where the seat of power will be. Planting it in any of the extant settlements would give an unfair advantage to that provincial ruler. So the Viceroy says, "Lo, we shall build a new city where all can meet as equals beneath Our Royal benificent rule and the rest of the world might admire the greatness of our works. We shall name it Chendl, in honour of this place where we have met and sealed our sacred compact!" Fade to fanfare....
Ahh, the nuggets birthed of overtime and too much booze...
An off-the-wall, but perhaps not completely implausible explanation:
In ancient Japan, once the incumbent Emperor had died, the location of the capital was changed because the current location had become inauspicious upon his death (being the spot where the Tennou Heika passed on). That's why up till the AD 700s, Japan in particular had a peripatetic court, packing up and moving from a recently-built major metropolis every 30 or so years, till they decided that was getting ridiculous and settled at Heian-Kyo (today's Kyoto).
Perhaps similar pressures were on Furyondy, in that maybe there was something that had made the old Chendl suddenly unlivable or taboo, and they just up and moved the whole city to the new location to avoid whatever inauspiciousness was attached to the site. Doesn't have to be the death of a monarch, but perhaps some other event or belief.
I don't think it says anywhere that Chendl was the old capital. I take it to mean that Dyvers was the old capital, and Chendl was a lesser city that was abandoned for reasons unknown. I don't think we need to assume the capital migrated between three different cities.
I also think there must be a major curse or the like preventing people from resettling the city in the same place. Otherwise it doesn't make sense to let a perfectly good city go fallow. It's not like they abandoned Dyvers after it lost its status as Furyondy's seat, after all. If there was nothing wrong with Old Dyvers it would still be a settlement of some kind, even if it was a less significant one. It might have been too damp to be a capital, but surely the entire population of a city isn't going to abandon their homes over a little dampness, short of actual Ys-like flooding.
Building a new Chendl as the country's capital thus solved two problems at once. A major city had to be rebuilt anyway (or, at least, the name wasn't being used), and they wanted a new capital without the entrenched power structure of Dyvers (where the king could rule without interference from Dyvers' guilds and nobility). Calling the new city Chendl gave it some historic and symbolic significance: something broken was being put back together in the nation's new capital, if in a different place. An old wound was being healed.
Could the King (Thrommel III?) who made the descision to abandon Dyvers as a capital have made a similar compromise? Perhaps the Great Families would have made it a condition of unification that none of their provincial capitals be made the national capital? That might explain why Fairwain province is so tiny (30 miles) compared to the rest of the provinces.
This is almost exactly what I have done in my home game.
Calling the new city Chendl gave it some historic and symbolic significance: something broken was being put back together in the nation's new capital, if in a different place. An old wound was being healed.
Actually this idea might shed a sober new light on the subject. Perhaps Chendl was simply sacked and razed to the ground in the decades or perhaps centuries preceding the establishment of Furyondy. Could the Aerdi have made an example of the place during the establishment of their suzerainty over the western Flanaess? A quick way for an empire to subjugate a new land could be to pick a town or city known for being a symbol of stalwart local strength and make a brutal example out of it.
This might explain why no one resettled the place. The Overking would simply destroy the place and let it be known that anyone who sought to resettle there would incur the same punishment. There may be foundations and underground areas left intact but the rest was scoured away.
It might also explain why the new capital could be named Chendl. What better way for Furyondy to symbolically declare to the Aerdi and themselves that Furyondy, not Aerdi, was the new power in the west?
It also might have been the first of many straws that alienated Dyvers as declaring a vanished city of yore to be the symbolic heart of the realm would surely bruise the collective egos of the Gentry of that great city.
All conjecture of course. The Overkings of that period were not of the Naelax and had no reputation that I can recall for such brutality. Still, some generals may take liberties when hundreds or thousands of miles lay between them and accountability....
Suppose Old Chendl dates from the Flan period. The Oeridians simply took over Old Chendl like they took over most of the Flanaess.
As for why it was abandoned in favor of a planned city, the planned nature of the new city suggests there was no immediate need to abandon Old Chendl as there was time apparently for New Chendl to be specifically planned and built.
As noted upthread the ancient/medieval Japanese changed capitals 3 times. The ancient Egyptians changed capitals at least as many times. The United States changed capitals twice - NYC and Washington, DC (three times? Philly?). No one needs a curse, per se, to change capitals.
That said, the Flan come with the Ur-Flan, who can provide any number of possible reasons to abandon Old Chendl. So could dear old Iuz to the north. Given that Old Chendl has not remained populated, something along these general lines would seem probable, albeit nothing so sudden a threat that it interrupted the orderly building and occupation of New Chendl.
As noted upthread the ancient/medieval Japanese changed capitals 3 times. The ancient Egyptians changed capitals at least as many times. The United States changed capitals twice - NYC and Washington, DC (three times? Philly?). No one needs a curse, per se, to change capitals.
Of course not, but that's not the issue here. Memphis wasn't abandoned when Thebes became the nation's capital, and both Memphis and Thebes continued to exist after Alexandria was constructed. Philadelphia wasn't depopulated when they built Washington DC.
The issue isn't why they needed a new capital, but why an entire city was left to go to ruin.
Dyvers was abandoned in favor of Chendl in 288 CY. The LGG, on page 41, said:
Quote:
By 254 CY, the degradation of the Great Kingdom had grown too profound for the lords of the west. In that seminal year, the heir to Viceroy Stinvri was proclaimed King Thrommel I. The Viceroyalty of Ferrond was no more. In its place stood a vast independent kingdom, Furyondy, with Dyvers as its cosmopolitan capital.
Dyvers had been the region's capital for more then 150 years. Despite the grandeur of the palace grounds and the long tradition, however, Thrommel and his newly installed court desired a grander seat for their new realm. A short time after the coronation, plans were drawn for a new capital, Chendl, far to the north. By 288 CY, the king had abandoned the "City of Sails" for his new seat of power, the meticulously crafted architectural wonder of Chendl."
But obviously Dyvers wasn't depopulated, only abandoned by the king (here Thrommel I, incidentally, not Thrommel III) and his court. Fate of Istus said the decision to construct Chendl was made in 283 CY (927 OR), but the LGG the planning had begun in 254 CY or shortly thereafter, with the city complete enough for the king to live in over 30 years later.
As for why, the explanation we're given is that Thrommel I desired a grander seat of power than dingy Dyvers. There might have been other reasons why Dyvers was considered undesirable, of course, but if Old Chendl was ever the capital of Furyondy, it had not been for over 150 years.
The question, then, is what happened to Old Chendl? It could have been a Flan city which became lost before the Great Migrations (FoI says only that it existed "in days of old"). Indeed, I think it's generally a good assumption that all major cities were inhabited before the Migrations as well, if those cities formed organically on logical trade routes. It could have been an earlier Oeridian (Voll) city as well. You're making the assumption that it existed until the present Chendl was completed, but I don't think that's likely at all. The migration was not from Old Chendl to New Chendl, but from Dyvers to Chendl. There's no reason to assume that, in 283 CY, anyone had inhabited Old Chendl in living memory.
Could Old Chendl have been destroyed by the armies of the Great Kingdom in retribution for the succession? Yes, I think that's a strong possibility. There was a war, after all. I don't think Old Chendl would have been left vacant out of fear of Aerdy's military prowess, however, since Furyondy had already definitively won the war. If no one returned to it, it's because it had been made redundant by the new city's construction.
So long-abandoned legendary cursed city or recently destroyed city are both strong possibilities, I think, but an orderly exodus from Old Chendl to New seems unlikely and unnecessary. The idea that there were two separate Chendls for centuries until the time of Iuz seems downright impossible.
Could Old Chendl have been destroyed by the armies of the Great Kingdom in retribution for the succession? Yes, I think that's a strong possibility. There was a war, after all. I don't think Old Chendl would have been left vacant out of fear of Aerdy's military prowess, however, since Furyondy had already definitively won the war. If no one returned to it, it's because it had been made redundant by the new city's construction.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I think it more likely that the city was destroyed during the formation of the Viceroyalty of Ferrond, not it's dissolution in favour of Furyondy....
This allows for the city being more of a symbol of unity than Dyvers. If it was notable for some reason before the establishment of the Great Kingdom's suzerainty over the west, it would send a very strong message to the Overking ie. "Don't come back, we were doing just dandy before we kicked you out, and we are going back to doing just dandy...."
I'm not sure, however, whether the Viceroyalty was established after a war with the locals or just the threat of one. Anyone? Perhaps Old Chendl was a location similar to Tara in Ireland. It was the place the local tribes gathered to recognize a local Overlord of their own (such as a High King in Ireland's case). It does make sense that the new regime would destroy such a place in order to remove that tradition.
Does Dyvers predate the formation of the Viceroyalty? If not, the explanation makes sense to me. If so, it's probably a bit of a stretch.
I think you may have misunderstood me. I think it more likely that the city was destroyed during the formation of the Viceroyalty of Ferrond, not it's dissolution in favour of Furyondy....
Yes, I misunderstood. I was talking about the war between the Great Kingdom and the newly-created Kingdom of Furyondy under Thrommel I. I don't know if there was a war between the Ferrondic natives and the Great Kingdom before the Viceroyalty formed.
Quote:
Does Dyvers predate the formation of the Viceroyalty? If not, the explanation makes sense to me. If so, it's probably a bit of a stretch.
We know from the LGG that the present city of Chendl became the capital of Furyondy immediately after it moved from Dyvers, and that's all I was trying to point out. I'm not venturing a guess about how old Dyvers is here, though there are some that speculate it was built over the Flan city of Tycheron, once the stronghold of Kas.
Great discussion. Some observations of my own from Marklands. The sovereign Kingdom of Furyondy under Thrommel once held modern Bissel, Veluna, Shield Lands, Dyvers, Highfolk and part of Perrenland (and I would speculate they had claims on some of modern Iuz if they controlled the Whyestil completely). Perhaps part of the decision for a new capital, besides a statement to Rauxes or ancient tradition was to maintain a more centralized seat of government (although Bissel was quite far away but that was gained during their expansionist phase). Indeed it wasn't long after in the 4th century that Bissel was lost due to the succession of Voll and the Shield Lands broke off to fend off Bandit Kings. That was followed by Perrenland, Highfolk (who went autonomous unchallenged, no treaty was formalized), and ironically Dyvers went Free last in 526 CY. By then Furyondy was comfortable with their vassals breaking off, keeping good relations for the most part and confident of their safety especially since Iuz had disappeared in 503 CY.
The ulitmate humiliation was Iuz's forces sieging and smashing much of Chendl around the GH Wars. Dyvers for its part has never been attacked in wartime AFAIK.
Another possibility: make the Old Chendl the site location for the Lost City of Gaxmoor from TLG, since it was originally set in GH (though not near Crockport's current location). _________________ Allan Grohe (grodog@gmail.com)
http://www.greyhawkonline.com/grodog/greyhawk.html
I like this idea a lot. One option is that a new city is built on the ruins of the old. This happens a LOT in Ancient cultures and some even more modern. Much of Italy is built on top of Roman ruins, same goes for areas of England and even Paris has its own underground catacombs.
So given this perhaps during the razing of one building or a collapse, sinkhole, etc... a passage to the old city is found. This leaves a nice opening for an adventure hook! I also like grodog's idea of Gaxmoor being the city that stands there now.
Further, in the adventure one could explore old Oeridian culture during the migration, maybe an element that the current regime wanted to remove itself from as well. Theres also an opening for Flan artifacts and relics (not exactly magical) located in the ruins.
If someone would like to write this I'm all for it for the Oerth Journal, this idea rocks! Good eye and good attention to detail everyone! _________________ Cheerz,
-Rick "Duicarthan" Miller
Editor-in-Chief, Oerth Journal
http://www.oerthjournal.comhttp://www.greyhawkonline.com/duicarthan
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Imagine if you will, powerful nobles gather at an estate in a picturesque lake town, wheeling, dealing, intriguing and hammering out the conditions of a new nation soon to be ruled by the heir of their capable Viceroy. They have come here to plot because the Overking's spies are everywhere in the capital. Dyvers is unacceptable in the long run, a symbol of the Kingdom of Aerdi. All agree that it would be a sign of weakness to allow it to remain the heart of the new realm into perpetuity. But no one can agree where the seat of power will be. Planting it in any of the extant settlements would give an unfair advantage to that provincial ruler. So the Viceroy says, "Lo, we shall build a new city where all can meet as equals beneath Our Royal benificent rule and the rest of the world might admire the greatness of our works. We shall name it Chendl, in honour of this place where we have met and sealed our sacred compact!" Fade to fanfare.... 
