Develop a Raistlen/Carmen relationship where each stands on their own yet their concern for one another runs so deep they are constantly trying to rescue/save one another from themselves. Could be brothers, good friends, could be the result of an oath. _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
The problem with this is seeing the forest from the trees. Do the actions of said rogue help promote the spheres of justice, honor, and daring? Is an assassination of a said target justice for their prior actions? There are many examples of this within the Catholic church. If the actions of the thief help the greater cause, then as long as the cleric's actions do not violate the laws, the theif is free to do as he may and be judged by the gods at the end of his time.
What kind of relationship do the players have with one another and what kind of relationship have they developed between their characters? _________________ Eileen of Greyhawk, Prophet of Istus, Messenger of the Gods
I can't find it now but Bastions of Faith, a 2e product, describes a Heironean temple complex with Rogues attached as members of the temple. I think they called them inquisitors or something like that. So if you're worried about canon there is apparently some room for some rogue-like acts among Heironeans. The cleric obviously won't condone the rogue stealing from ordinary citizens but probably doesn't mind if an orc gets flanked and stabbed in the back or if the rogue sneaks into an orc village and steals something the party needs. He wouldn't do it himself but wouldn't come down hard on someone else doing it other than to maybe shake his head disapprovingly.
If the thief is stealing from whoever he gets the opportunity to steal from the cleric should take action against him. If he's friends with the thief probably just make him return what he stole, give him a strong lecture and make him say a hundred "Hail Stern Alias." If he does it again there should be real trouble. He definitely shouldn't ignore it.
If the Rogue is a full on thief, as opposed to just being a Rogue who is a sneaky scout that helps the PCs get into places, the THIEF character will need to watch what they do around the Paladin. The Paladin would be doing a no-no if they didn't turn in the thief, if they found out the thief was actually stealing from people that shouldn't be stolen from. The Paladin might think it was OK for the thief to "liberate" an evil priest's unholy symbol, or an evil wizard's spellbook, but not the purse of a lawful merchant. If the Thief openly brags about stealing stuff from everyday people, then the act of not reporting it would be a black mark against the Paladin to be sure. We're talking loss of abilites and a required atonement here- a simple atonement, but an atonement nonetheless. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Jun 20, 2008 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total
A chaotic good thief should get along fine with a lawful good cleric because this is D&D, and that sort of thing has been standard since its inception.
If the thief is going to be breaking the laws of a good-aligned state, he or she is well-advised to do so without telling the cleric. But they're not required to do so just because they belong to the thief class. Bilbo Baggins was hired as a thief, and not even a paladin is likely to object to him.
Basic class abilities like Backstab and Pick Pockets should be fine as long as they're used in a way that doesn't break fair and just laws. If the local orc tribe has a "no picking our pockets" law, the cleric shouldn't care very much.
If the thief is robbing local merchants, they should be careful not to get caught, and not do it in front of the cleric. If they are caught, however, the cleric might be able to use his or her clout to have the thief released from prison under the condition that the lawful cleric keeps the thief out of trouble in the future. A scenario in which the cleric is essentially the thief's "parole officer" would make good sense, I think. A cleric who didn't actually try very hard to keep his charge out of trouble would probably get thrown out of the church, however.
The cleric may note that Heironeous frowns on dishonorable combat, but this is a polytheistic society and Heironeans know that not everyone is expected to live up to Heironeous's strict standards. They're not Pholtans or Cuthbertines, after all.
The cleric may note that Heironeous frowns on dishonorable combat, but this is a polytheistic society and Heironeans know that not everyone is expected to live up to Heironeous's strict standards. They're not Pholtans or Cuthbertines, after all.
thanks guys, it all make sense.
the thing is that the thief didnt make to the group yet, he is about to join (a player whants to be a thief, but the kind of adventurer thief, not just a low-life man who steal from anyone wih a coin).
the idea of parole is very good, and i think i will use it.
Just be glad he is not a cleric of Photus. Take about all out lawfulness! Despite the fact that Pholtus is LG, I think this would be harder to explain than the companionship with a cleric of of Heironeous. After all, Heironeous, though following a strict code, also balances this code with more compassion. _________________ Count Telemachus, Archmage of the Unicorn Conferderation
The cleric may note that Heironeous frowns on dishonorable combat, but this is a polytheistic society and Heironeans know that not everyone is expected to live up to Heironeous's strict standards. They're not Pholtans or Cuthbertines, after all.
Exactly. As I see Heironeous, he is worshipped by the elite: a noble warrior ideal for noble warriors. His clerics have little to do with common people and might even consider it dishonorable for common folk like peasants to take up arms - they simply have no business "pretending" to be warriors. Basically, the Lawfulness of a Heironeoun cleric comes in a strong belief in strict social hierarchy, and there are different standards of behavior expected for different kinds of people.
From this perspective, I think an adventuring Heironeoun cleric would tolerate the presence of a thief in the party so long as the thief restricted his activities to acceptable ends. Pretty much those listed above - scouting and sneaking, stealing from evil creatures, backstabbing in combat against evil. As long as the thievery is channeled to constructive ends it would be tolerated from the thief - and better to have someone like that doing it than the cleric or a warrior sullying themselves with such things.
I would suggest that when the thief joins the party, the cleric has a little sit-down with him and goes over all the rules: these are the people you are allowed to steal from, these are the ones you are not. These are the activities that I will tolerate, these are the ones that I will not. As long as the cleric believes the thief is following his guidance, there should not be a problem.
Exactly. As I see Heironeous, he is worshipped by the elite: a noble warrior ideal for noble warriors. His clerics have little to do with common people and might even consider it dishonorable for common folk like peasants to take up arms - they simply have no business "pretending" to be warriors. Basically, the Lawfulness of a Heironeoun cleric comes in a strong belief in strict social hierarchy, and there are different standards of behavior expected for different kinds of people.
Boa sorte!
wow, never have heard of this perspective, very nice
...touchy topic as there can be a lot of perceptions on it, there is more here that just class difference but alignment factors as well.
My 10 pence vice 2 pence/advice (thus the length of this one) is whoever is running a PC with a strict set of morals/ethics (guidelines... like a “code”) which could possibly have conflicting moments with others in the group (be a paladin or any other class), the PC should, as a part of their background, develop a quick list of tolerances reflective to the alignment and/or any particular religion followed, and say that towards any encounter "...I would normally act this way or try and do this...", but try to establish flexibility when dealing with members of the "group", after all, everyone should be on the “same page”.
As an adventurer group, you need cohesiveness/agreement and/or acceptance to succeed "well" at problems/situations. If the group is particularly at odds with each other, then not much game is getting done.
The PC groups moral/ethical beliefs should somewhat on the same line else it wouldn't be a "group/party". Good and neutral can work, but not Good and Evil... exact opposites in ideals. Lawful or chaotic approaches can complement each other when shared wholly with good (LG/NG/CG) or wholly with neutral points (LN/NN/CN), but can conflict if too far divided along the spectrum (a CN PC can be somewhat neurotic and could very well conflict with LG ideals especially in regards to a capture and release vice capture and kill example or to obey a law vice to break the law... and even this can be dependent upon the situation).
I do not entertain or play evil aligned groups... not my bag, so I never see it being too much of an issue at the table for alignment conflicts.
Lend some common sense and tolerance from any class chosen as each could regard the other as encumbersum. This is where I like to see true/solid/single direction class development that can lend a dependency to each other in the group and create a group dynamic.
The thief player should realize that if he wants to "practice" his skills, he should either do so that is generally accepted by all in the group or on his own time away from the group (run a quiet 1 on 1 session later if need be) and likewise the Paladin should try not to be so overbearing in "this is the way it should or shall be!". A good group respects each other and supports each other in there endeavours to accomplish the adventure, if not, there can be compromise as well.
Keep in mind, there should always be a level of flexibility in how a Paladin or Thief would have to develop with each other in a group, if not then it is not a group but us versus them...
I remember a lawful good cleric who was more bullish in enforcing their deities beliefs/ways onto the group, that healing was given only to those of the faith... not much good to a party comprised of multiple faiths now is it. Same can go in principle to how a Ranger or Paladin or Thief or Wizard or Druid would interact.
Now, not saying everybody has to be buddy, buddy and a little internal conflict can also be beneficial to role playing and group dynamics, but when there’s a task at hand, especially life and death situations, the petty bickering gets placed aside and everyone gets down to business to help each other out to succeed.... "...we can settle the merchant being swindled unfairly later, after we take care of this evil overlord and his minions." “...agreed”.
Not all will agree, but this is my point of view on the subject, I hope something of value can be gleamed from this.
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If he does it again there should be real trouble. He definitely shouldn't ignore it.
...touchy topic as there can be a lot of perceptions on it, there is more here that just class difference but alignment factors as well.
Not all will agree, but this is my point of view on the subject, I hope something of value can be gleamed from this.