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    Canonfire :: View topic - Next Gen GH Begins to Take Shape
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Next Gen GH Begins to Take Shape [ Previous  1, 2]
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:12 am  

    gargoyle wrote:
    I have to agree that the "Big Three", Iuz, Vecna and Tharizdun are overused, yet iconic, evils of Greyhawk. I would hate to see them completely disappear, yet would rather see "new" evil manipulators in any sort of "restart" of WoG.


    I think there is a general agreement that the Big Three not be completely done away with. Rather, they would be moved off stage. I'm going to suggest something like:

    1) Big T goes dead silent and his "cultists" begin to inexplicably disappear. Even those who falsely claim an association -vanish. Literally, saying his name can be enough for someone to "go missing." No one knows why. There is no explaination but SOMETHING is obviously going on. The Next Gen GH leaves this mystery to build and brood, helping to restore some mystique to the Biggest of the Baddest - who needs to recover from his overexposure. DMs can followup in their home campaigns, of course.

    2) Iuz goes dead silent. His clerics no longer gain any spells. The Boneheart are on the run, those that are still alive and can be positively located. Iuz' palace in Dorakaa is empty. The Soul Husks are shrivelled, almost as if burned (or drained) but there is no sign of scorching. Again, there is no explaination but SOMETHING is obviously going on.

    Iuz' realm is a haunted land. Organized evil is absent with Iuz' disappearence but there a haunting sense of evil and foreboding, and BAD THINGS happen - often without explaination. Its as if the land itself has become inbued with evil or that Iuz' evil has entered the very soil. Efforts by the northern Nomads, Shieldlanders and Furyondians to enter, settle and reclaim Iuz' former realm meet with success but always at a price, as if such efforts were cursed. The Rovers refuse to enter the area at all, even with Iuz no longer physically present.

    This scenario preserves the idea of Iuz and keeps it active, even as Iuz the figure is not onstage.

    3) Vecna continues to be a god but an increasingly reclusive one. He is calling his clerics to the Rushmoors, the Dim Forest and a handful of other locales for reasons unknown. Any cleric or cultist outside these areas recieves no spells from Vecna nor will Vecna respond to them in any way. Clerics who fail to answer the "Call" often disappear. Is this Vecna striking down disobedient followers or some other agency? Is Vecna calling his followers together to execute some grand scheme - or to protect them and by turns himself from something abroad in the Flanaess? Something that has already made Iuz' realm a haunted region and set the Boneheart to their heels?

    Here again, Vecna sticks around but his reach is highly limited. He gets some mystery, and he gets some cachet for doing something about it (ostensibly). Those areas subjec to Vecna's Calling become haunted or cursed, much like Iuz' realm.

    With these steps taken, the Big Three would be off center stage but still around. And while offstage, each would see their individual stories advanced with a sense of mystery. So, they are given a rest AND enhanced after being over exposed at the same time.

    Into the breach can step new evils.

    The Elder Elemental Lords can step into much of Big T's imaginative space as developed upthread.

    Kyuss, who brings a Cthulthu-like slimeness and wormyness to the table, with an undead focus and Dragotha the draco-lich in a Kas-like allied role, could step into Iuz' imaginative space in the Rift Canyon and Wormcrawl Fissure. This would move the seat of northern evil east to the Bandit Kingdoms with a specific focus on the Rift Canyon, that has never really seen much attention despite being a HUGE geographic feature and an ominous one. While the Age of Worms Adventure Path in Dungeon stopped Kyuss' grand plan (while introducing the character to a whole generation of gamers who might like to see more about him), Kyuss is undead after all and a comeback in a Next Gen GH would not be out of the question. I think, given his star turn in Dungeon, Kyuss has more appeal to present day "casual GHers" than Iuz actually and could really help sell/popularize a Next Gen GH.

    Vecna, being more present in a Next Gen GH (see above) than either Big T or Iuz, doesn't necessarily need to have any new threart occupy his imaginative space. Rather, there is an open slot for something wholly new.

    Just noodling here but some kind of conflict between GH's arch-liches, Vecna and the less publicized Acererak could be cool. Maybe Acererak has seen what Vecna has accomplished and wants in, maybe at Vecna's expense. Vecna may be a newly minted god but Acererak has been exploring the planes for far longer and who knows what he may have discovered that could threaten Vecna's position? Such a scenario could both fill and reinvigorate Vecna's imaginative space.

    Of course, the wholly new can and should IMO encompass more than just imaginative "replacements" for the Big Three. Replacing one Big Three with another Big Three is not the idea. Rather, the Big Three are moved aside so that any number of new threats can get some attention and traction in the Next Gen setting.
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    GVD
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    Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:30 am  

    GVDammerung wrote:
    Cebrion wrote:
    "Obliviax" is the name of the AD&D "memory moss" monster. Tough to name those EEGs.


    Yup. But I figure its too cool a name to let it rest with a kinda boring monster. I tossed around other versions but "Obliviax" is just cool, too cool for an inert plant monster. Wink


    Ah, your character has obviously never eaten the obliviax moss-fetish of another character. "Hey! I can cast spells!" Hehehe.
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    Fri Aug 01, 2008 1:21 pm  

    Wastri! How about giving Old Toadface some love and leaving Old Wicked aside for a moment? Wastri's human supremacist followers are cool. He has hyponoaods,a nd stuff. Swamps rule!

    Seriously, I like the idea of Wastri being a bigger threat.


    Last edited by CombatMedic on Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Aug 07, 2008 9:50 am  

    I've been thinking about what DwarffromNyrond said about getting the PCs involved in the changes through adventures. Others have echoed Dwarf's sentiments. The trick has always been, from my POV, how to do this most effectively. In my own mind, I think I know how it could be done.

    Given the time line would be advanced 25 years, from 591CY to 616CY (or alternatively from 599 CY to 624CY if we account for the Dungeon Adventure Paths in LG yearly reckoning), I'm thinking of 3 mega-adventures tied loosely togerther like TOEE, Slavers and Giants, that would be published before the Next Gen GH campaign setting.

    1) Using the 591CY start date for the timeline advance, the first mega-adventure would be set in 596CY (+5years). This would be, in my thought - Secrets in Scarlet: The Brotherhood's Expedition to the Sea of Dust . In a nutshell, the PCs would race against a Brotherhood team and one sponsored by the followers of Wastri to solve a 7,000 year old mystery, ultimately leading to the Sea of Dust and a lost city of the old Suel Imperium. As the involvement of both the SB and Wastri's followers suggest - the mystery is something that has GH's chief resident racists in a lather. The truth is out there.

    The ultimate goal of the first mega-adventure would be to "fix" the SB, after its having been "outed" in FtA. This requires that the SB's empire appear to fail so that they can go underground once more. At the same time, a secondary goal would be to quiet down all the late chatter about Tharizdun by giving the Brotherhood something else, more immediate, to be concerned about and reasserting that Big T is fully confined and totally cut off from Oerth.

    2) Using again the 591CY start date, second mega-adventure would be set in 601CY (+10 years and +5 years from Secrets in Scarlet). This would be in my thinking - Crusade! The Fall of Iuz. In a nutshell, this is the campaign wherein the PCs get to vanquish Iuz, such that he does not appear directly onstage in the Next Gen GH. The crusade is Furyondy and Veluna squaring off against Iuz in a fight to the finish. The wild card is the "McGuffin" carried over from Secrets in Scarlet, wherein the mystery of the first adventure, thought resolved, reappears and deepens.

    By getting dear old, overexposed and ineffectual Iuz off the stage (although not destroying him), this mega-adventure would open up opportunities for new villains to arise.

    3) Still using the 591CY start date, the third and final mega-adventure would be set in 611CY (+20 years from start, +15 years from Secrets in Scralet, +10 years from Crusade! The Fall of Iuz). This would be in my thinking - Overking! The Fate of Aerdi. In a nutshell, this mega adventure would resolve the mystery of Rauxes' fate, Ivid's fate, the fate of the animuses and settle the long brewing but seemingly eternally delayed Aerdi Civil War between north and south. In the process, the mystery developed in the first two mega-adventures would be resolved and the identity of the "McGuffin" revealed.

    With the SB cleaned up, Iuz put on hiatus and Aerdi cleaned up, the Next Gen GH would be set in (using the 591CY start date) 616CY - +5 years after the Overking! adventure. In this way, PCs would play through 25 years of GH history up to the Next Gen GH setting. The changes would then seem more natural.

    After due consideration, I'd leave Vecna to be dealt with in the Next Gen GH campaign setting itself, completing the trifecta of dealing with the Big 3 - plus the SB to boot!

    So it would be:

    Big T, Iuz, Ivid/Aerdi and the SB - repositioned in 3 mega-adventures.

    Mordy, Tenser and Rary et al, Vecna - repositioned in the Next Gen GH CS.

    New villains - Kyuss? the Ur-Flan? and ??? etc. brought along in the Next Gen GH CS with maybe hints along the way in the mega-adventures.

    Just noodling. Happy
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    GVD
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    Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:53 pm  

    GVD,

    I guess it would depend on what your goals were.

    Your proposed adventures meet the needs of established "old school" Greyhawk players and dms (read: us). It really doesn't serve the purpose of capturing the adrift Living Greyhawk (tm) players or attracting new players and GMs.

    1) LG players already have a timeline that goes to 598 CY and their history and experience is different from one that re-starts from 591CY.

    2) New dms and players are going to be looking for intro modules to Greyhawk that introduce the setting. Its confusing to them if you have prequel to the game world you are intending to write-up and are now playing in one you are going to discard.

    Further, you now are spending tremendous resources (and CF has limited resources) on creating 3 mega-adventures before you really work on a new campaign bible to support your proposed time line shift.

    I think it would be better to write a new campaign bible and a few intro adventures and maybe an Adventure Path to introduce the new campaign to one and all. That way all the resources are set to making the new campaign accessible and relevant.

    My Two Coppers,

    Bryan Blumklotz
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:15 am  

    Saracenus wrote:
    . . . Your proposed adventures meet the needs of established "old school" Greyhawk players and dms (read: us). It really doesn't serve the purpose of capturing the adrift Living Greyhawk (tm) players or attracting new players and GMs.

    1) LG players already have a timeline that goes to 598 CY and their history and experience is different from one that re-starts from 591CY.

    2) New dms and players are going to be looking for intro modules to Greyhawk that introduce the setting. Its confusing to them if you have prequel to the game world you are intending to write-up and are now playing in one you are going to discard.


    You are right. I did not look at it that way but you are right. Hmmm. I'm not sure how to bridge the gap that LG players will have. Maybe it will lessen with time?

    Practically, putting together an LG timeline may not be really possible. I don't know.

    In any event, I would absolutely oppose a Next Gen GH simply adopting or ratifying wholsesale the LG's developoment of the setting. Too many LG plots were overheated pot boilers designed to be eye catching as adventures but without any thought to their long term affects on the setting. Too many LG storylines involved killing notable NPCs for reasons scarcely related to more than drawing attention by adding the deaths of notable NPCs as shockvalue. Then there were the LC stories that were just bad. I joke . . . but only just. I have zero interest in adopting the LG's adventure results as the basis for a Next Gen GH.

    Your point though is solid - how to appeal to both Old School Hawkers, the LGers _and_ the all important potential Hawkers who would be new to the setting. Top of my head but I'm thinking someone is going to have to be thrown under the bus. Maybe everyone by varying degres but that is in the nature of compromise. But what that compromise would look like? I'm not sure.

    Saracenus wrote:
    Further, you now are spending tremendous resources (and CF has limited resources) on creating 3 mega-adventures before you really work on a new campaign bible to support your proposed time line shift.


    Ah. I think you misunderstand me. I'm just noodling around ideas. Just playing "what if." I'm not suggesting myself or CF actually try to build a Next Gen GH. We don't own the IP. We are almost certainly off the radar of the IP holder. It would be both presumptious and likely foolish, IMO, to try to take on such a task.

    Still, its fun to imagine. At least I think so. Happy
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:51 pm  

    Your proposal sounds great, GDV - of course I am one of those old time gamers who cares nothing about bringing others into the setting. The only thing I would want to change would be the order. Crusade against Iuz first, Aerdy civil war second, into the Sea of Dust as the finally.

    What I think would be the worst is to try to come up with some type of compromise to accomodate everybody. That sounds like a recipe for a white-washed setting.
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:48 pm  

    What I am about to say will seem cruel, malicious, unkind, uncouth, mean spirited and generally obnoxious. Why do we care about Living Greyhawk stories and events? If we are to resurrect Greyhawk, we need to look not to "old school" gamers such as ourselves, but we need to focus solely on new players and getting the craze started in them. We also have to set aside our old school mentalities and become new players again. Greyhawk needs new introductory adventures along with adventures that have the smoking wisps of ancient history to it.

    With a land as broad as the Greyhawk setting, I see no reason why there would even needs to be a focus on the established villians. Iuz can fall back to his haunted land to lick grievious wounds dealt to him by "incredibly courageous, but unfortunate adventurers." Tharizdun who? Wink The Scarlet Brotherhood has extended it's hand far too much and has been sent reeling back to it's penninsula. Let them stay there and be fortified and regrouping with a civil war of their own.

    Why do we even need villains in the first place? Let Vecna be a legend. Let Iuz be that evil overlord....to the far north. Cool With Aerdy in such turmoil and with no centralized force to keep the land free of danger (ahem), why can't the land start to be repopulated with "monsters?" I see a setting so full of possibilities, but all I seem to hear is, Iuz, Scarlet Brotherhood, Tharizdun. Don't get me wrong, **I firmly believe they have their place in the setting,** but we can do so much with the Shield Lands (great introductory potential there), the Knights of the Hart, Knights of the Watch, Irongate for established folks, Furyondy, Veluna, the whole of the Baklunish west. What about those elves in Celene? Yes the Everqueen is determined that no elves should die in human wars, but she didn't say anything about bankrolling and funding good against evil. Perhaps she is helping Furyondy nobles to the north FAR more than anyone could expect or know? Sounds like a tasty adventure series! What about the dwarves in Ulek? Heck we have such a hinter land filled with bitter "barbarians" that the Ur-Flan can almost jst explode overnight with followers of the sacred ond old ways. What were to happen if Galep-Dedriel were to show up and want his soul gem back? What if the monks and savants from the adventure "When a Star Falls" issues a proclamation of change? Perhaps there is a lord leading a a dream of a new and bright Great Empire of Aerdy...and he's using the Black Razor? Shocked Why are the big boys not now focusing on Rauxes and getting that fixed? Eldritch storm, adventurers needed! Happy Fighting the civil war in Aeredy has so much potential I have no idea where to begin. And what is in those mountains to the far northeast? Lets do some dealings in Radigast City. Dyvers, the rival of Greyhawk? I mean there is so much material and potential, can't we just start anew?

    Of course, I willingly admit that my opinion may be wayward and not valid, but I see no reason why new adventures can't be made that helps change WoG and provides a change for future adventures. Cool And I haven't seen any dragons laying the smackdown in quite some time. Mad
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:35 pm  

    BusterBudd wrote:
    I like the concept WotC has used to jump ahead a 100 yrs and re-establish the Forgotten Realms campaign for the 4th Ed game, yet still utilizing previous material as historical reference. Cool Nice idea... Greyhawk could so develop from this as well. Wink

    I disagree. The reason for the "fast-forward" and radical changes in the Realms are:
    1) To divorce FR fluff from obsolete mechanics (Weave Magic, etc.)
    2) To make all those novel-based epic NPCs legend rather than living
    3) To place PCs in the forefront as opposed to the margins of epic NPCs
    4) To transform FR into a game setting first and a novel setting second


    Many players complained, rightly so, that Forgotten Realms marginalized the efforts of PCs by showcasing the accomplishments of NPCs. In FR your PCs were crap until they were epic level. All of the major accomplishments in FR were done by NPCs. Compare that to GH where "a group of adventurers":
    * Obtained the Crook of Rao, thus banishing the demon hordes of Iuz
    * Stopped the Slave Lords
    * Thwarted the cult from returning to the Temple of Elemental Evil

    The list could go on and on. In a game setting players want their characters to make a difference otherwise - what's the point? In old FR your wizard will always be warming the bench for Elminster - the worst Mary Sue ever published.
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    Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:07 pm  

    @DwarffromNyrond - I completely agree. Any treatment of the GH setting should focus on PCs, not on the exploits of NPCs.

    I've been thinking of a way to reconcile the GH timeline. The biggest feature that attracted me to GH is its flexibility. The intricate combination of depth and mystery, detail and vagaries. There are many people that do not want a "new timeline" or don't rightly care about LGH. What they want is old material resurfacing. My proposal would be to publish several volumes of Pluffet Smeder's work, each volume covering a different era. There would be:
    * Greyhawk History and Legends - the history of the ancient world with proposed timelines, events, names, and places. The "new" information that could be added is plot hooks of ancient artifacts, empires, and evils. Documents that cite the lost empires won't have a map to the ancient cities, but could contain a map of the ancient cities.
    * Antebellum Greyhawk - the "pre-modern" history of GH as seen through the '83 boxed set.
    * Greyhawk Wars - The history would highlight the rise of Iggwilv, Iuz, and Turosh Mak.
    * Modern Greyhawk - Provide a detailed outline of LGH.


    Each history should focus on events from a human perspective. In addition, the major turning points should be accomplished by adventurers and not NPCs. I would go so far as to say, "revise any history to make PCs the prime movers." By rearranging GH history as PC-centric it would create an opportunity for publishing a host of historic campaign modules. Why not keep with EGG tradition of detail light (which is anti-FR/DR/Eberron) and module heavy? Publish modules so the DMs and Players can fill in the detail themselves.

    Furthermore, a PC-centric, open-ended history of GH would present DMs with more opportunities to develop their own campaigns. I currently do this myself because the players are wholly ignorant of GH history. However, if a concerted effort already exists to facilitate this - it would make my job a heckuva lot easier Laughing
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    Sat Aug 09, 2008 11:50 am  

    OleOneEye wrote:
    . . . I am one of those old time gamers who cares nothing about bringing others into the setting. . . .


    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    What I am about to say will seem cruel, malicious, unkind, uncouth, mean spirited and generally obnoxious. Why do we care about Living Greyhawk stories and events?


    At a certain level, I understand where you are coming from. CF really serves my personal needs well. When I put on my "hat of game design," however, things change.

    I think GH needs new gamers and needs to see printed publication (just please Pholtus not in 4e!) because new gamers and an in print edition brings an energy and then enthusiasm to any sort of campaign setting that is ultimately very healthy for both the setting and all of its fans. Sure, GH has done and, I think, will do well while it is (as it is presently) a "dead" setting. However, I think there is a limit to how long such could go on without damaging fandom for the setting. For example GH was "dead" from 1994 to 1998 and that was no problem. Double that? Triple that? Quintuple? At some point, I think there would be an issue. For a setting to remain viable, it eventually has to see print.

    New gamers, new fans, are the heart and soul of the marketing effort for any published campaign setting. Unfortunately, these same new gamers may be more or less mythical and then grail-like. Still, they are serious marketing and design considerations.

    However, recognizing that D&D has _never_ (except at its inception) pulled in large numbers of new fans, no matter the setting (except maybe Dragonlance), it is important from a design and marketing standpoint to also court your existing fanbase. GH's existing fanbase includes 1) the Old School Gygaxians (who began gaming in the late 70's or early 80's), 2) the New School Greyhawk Sargent's at Arms (who became Hawkers with Carl Sargent's From the Ashes), 3) maybe some GH98er's; and 4) the Living Greyhawkers (who would probably be presently the largest group because LG just ended). While all of these groups would ideally be courted the LGers would, at least at the present moment, be the group to be most courted. The reason one would not immediately cave to whatever might draw that group is the question that has been open since the LG began - how many LGers are fans of GH more than just fans of any Living campaign or RPGA campaign? There is no answer but it is fair to say I think, that a substantial proportion of LGers will be less fans of GH than of RPGA/Living campaigns. So the LGers have to get in line like everybody else - no special favors or consideration - but definitiely some consideration. Where to draw that line will be much a matter of personal preference.

    Anyhoo. IMO, from a long term perspective, even if not a personal one, GH must look to the entirety of its existing fanbase when crafting a Next Gen GH, as well as to potential new gamers. Compromise will rule, and likely must rule, the day for GH to get up off the canvas one - more - time (just please Pholtus, not 4e!).
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    Sat Aug 09, 2008 12:09 pm  

    DwarffromNyrond wrote:
    . . .And I haven't seen any dragons laying the smackdown in quite some time. Mad


    This is something that has always struck me about GH. The game is called - Dungeons and Dragons. So where are the dragons in GH? Except Dragotha, who was until lately a myth, the answer is - nowhere really.

    Even when GH has been relaunched as a setting (three times (FtA, GH98, LGG) and counting), dragons are very few and very far between as other that occasional great sword bait in a dungeon. And this despite the popularity of dragons made evident by "Dragon"-lance and by Wotc's own sales records that shows that "dragon" in the title of a product automatically increases sales.

    Greyhawk needs some dragon based setting development. Dragons as more than enemies in an otherwise non-dragon related adventure. Dragons as a more permanent part of the setting.

    Dragons are cool. Dragons sell. GH should have dragons! Good point!!!

    AtomicPope wrote:
    . . . My proposal would be to publish several volumes of Pluffet Smeder's work, each volume covering a different era. There would be:
    * Greyhawk History and Legends - the history of the ancient world with proposed timelines, events, names, and places. The "new" information that could be added is plot hooks of ancient artifacts, empires, and evils. Documents that cite the lost empires won't have a map to the ancient cities, but could contain a map of the ancient cities.
    * Antebellum Greyhawk - the "pre-modern" history of GH as seen through the '83 boxed set.
    * Greyhawk Wars - The history would highlight the rise of Iggwilv, Iuz, and Turosh Mak.
    * Modern Greyhawk - Provide a detailed outline of LGH. . . .


    I think this a very sound idea.

    It is generally similar to the idea behind my Chronicles of Keoland series that has started to be published to the CF front page (Nyhan I was been submitted 3 or 4 weeks ago so should be appearing shortly), and which will be carried forward in the Chronicles of the Gran March series, which I am working on and which will include - dragons!

    If I had my way, any Next Gen GH would include a chapter about the "ancient" Flanaess that would cover in general outline:

    1) The pre-Human Flanaess, dominated by elven and dwarven civilizations and nomadic Flan;

    2) The pre-Migration Flanaess, dominated by settled Flan states;

    3) The Great Migration era, showing the precursor states to those we know well;

    4) The Aerdi Era, dominated by the Great Kingdom at its height;

    5) The Early Modern era, when the GK began to collapse as new states declared their independence;

    6) Pre-War era Greyhawk, essentially the era of the 83Box; and

    7) The Post-War era GH, the era of the LGG.

    Of course, the focus of a Next Gen GH would be on -

    8) The Next Gen Era, whatever its final form might look like - Iuz disappeared, Aerdi Civil War resolved, Keoland off its butt, the SB pared back to a secret society, the Baklunish on the move etc.

    Good thoughts!!!
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    Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:10 pm  

    How soon they forget. There are dragons all over the place in Greyhawk adventures:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7

    And that doesn’t even include the flocks of dragons in Age of Wyrms.

    So, it’s really easier to count the number of Greyhawk adventures that *DON’T* have dragons in them than those that do. Dragons simply aren’t stupid enough to hang out near populace areas, as that draws the attention of all sorts of treasure seekers and wannabe dragon slayers to them. There are of course plenty of small communities being terrorized by dragons. Somebody just needs to write up some of these unimportant and uninteresting places(and in way that makes them at least somewhat important and interesting of course Happy ).


    Last edited by Cebrion on Sun Aug 10, 2008 2:28 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:15 pm  

    Cebrion, that was awesome, thank you. I stand corrected about dragons. Smile
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    Sun Aug 10, 2008 7:58 pm  

    GVDammerung wrote:

    AtomicPope wrote:
    . . . blah, history ideas, blah. . . .


    I think this a very sound idea.

    It is generally similar to the idea behind my Chronicles of Keoland series that has started to be published to the CF front page (Nyhan I was been submitted 3 or 4 weeks ago so should be appearing shortly), and which will be carried forward in the Chronicles of the Gran March series, which I am working on and which will include - dragons!

    If I had my way, any Next Gen GH would include a chapter about the "ancient" Flanaess that would cover in general outline:

    1) The pre-Human Flanaess, dominated by elven and dwarven civilizations and nomadic Flan;

    2) The pre-Migration Flanaess, dominated by settled Flan states;

    3) The Great Migration era, showing the precursor states to those we know well;

    4) The Aerdi Era, dominated by the Great Kingdom at its height;

    5) The Early Modern era, when the GK began to collapse as new states declared their independence;

    6) Pre-War era Greyhawk, essentially the era of the 83Box; and

    7) The Post-War era GH, the era of the LGG.

    Of course, the focus of a Next Gen GH would be on -

    8) The Next Gen Era, whatever its final form might look like - Iuz disappeared, Aerdi Civil War resolved, Keoland off its butt, the SB pared back to a secret society, the Baklunish on the move etc.

    Good thoughts!!!

    Thanks! I'll keep an eye out for it.

    I really don't think there's anything revolutionary in my proposal. It just gives everyone something they want - a Greyhawk from the era the enjoy most with enough detail to run a campaign. The key would be to write modules to support those eras. If GH was released as four meager supplements detailing a concise history, it would be very easy for 3pp to write historic campaign modules.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:01 am  

    I proposed something very similar to this for any new WoG campaign setting book, as well as for adventures, in way of attempting to come up with a format that would appeal to Greyhawk players regardless of what era of products they prefer. The eras I settled on for a campaign setting book were numbers 6, 7, and 8 in Glenn's list. Everything earlier was just part of the world history.

    That seems to be how fans of the setting break down- by product era. You've got the old skool folks who like the 83' boxed set/EGG only products and some other derivative material. You have those who use up to and including From the Ashes, and then those who use pretty much everything. that covers the vast majority of people so far as i can tell. Broken down by eras, any product can be made to deliver just what you want to use. For adventures, you set them up for play in the earliest era, and then have sidebars to alter the storeyline if you choose to set the adventure in a later era. Simple really.
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:16 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    How soon they forget. There are dragons all over the place in Greyhawk adventures:

    http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=7

    And that doesn’t even include the flocks of dragons in Age of Wyrms.

    So, it’s really easier to count the number of Greyhawk adventures that *DON’T* have dragons in them than those that do.


    No forgetting. But take a close look at that list. Any particular dragon jump off that page at you? Any dragon appear more than in a single adventure (ie appearing in two different products)? Any dragon get a mention in the 83Box, FtA ot LGG? In more than one of those? The answers are pretty much "no."

    So what we have are dragons mainly as setting dressing or as one shot opponents. What we do not have is any dragon in GH with staying power, except Dragotha. GH does not exclude dragons as the list amply demonstrates but neither does GH really use dragons for other than just another monster to kill.

    IMO, dragons have more potential than that. They are top of the food chain predators and at least as smart as any other sentient and longer lived than most. They should have staying power or at least show up in some role more memorable than being slaughter the first time they are encountered. I would like to see some dragons used as plot devices more than tough sword bait.

    Age of Worms takes a hesitant step in this direction but disguises its evil dragons - Lashondra(sp). And then there is Dragotha - who shows up only to get offed (allegedly - I've got a CF submission in the que that looks more closely at that issue). What I'd like to see are dragons, as dragons (not polymorphed into humans), take on a sustained roll in a few areas. Giants have already done this in the Giant Series and then in The Liberation of Geoff so that they do not appear as simple sword bait - in Geoff giants are plot devices with staying power - think of Geoff, think of giants (even if any particulat adventure may not feature giants. I'd like to see dragons take on a similar role in one corner of the Flanaess or another.

    Hold of Stone Fist? Wolf and Tiger Nomad lands? Gran March? Bissel? There are areas of GH where not much is going on and which could see some greater interest if, perhaps, dragons played a limited role there similar to the role giants have come to play in Geoff. Other suggestions?

    Anyone see this as a BAD IDEA?
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:34 am  

    I agree with GVD on the scarcity of dragons with lasting power. Age of Worms went a long way to improving the dragon imprint on GH. Alot of the activity was centered on Riftcanyon and the Cairn Hills too. Not on the fringe! My favorite of the AP was Brazemal the Bright, who was like the #1 henchman for Dragotha. My players had a harder time with Brazemal than ol' Dragotha! Braz' appeared in Hall of the Fire Giant King and now AoW. That gives him two appearances! Overall though it seems GH is most known for its 'urban' dragons, the polymorphing GH dragons and the cute pseudodragon familiars. Eh.

    Now as to fringe lands with dragons. the best place is Thillonria. The square mileage of mountains and forests are prime real estate for a dragon resurgance. There is at least one Dungeon adventure set there I can vaguely recall that uses Linnorms in Thillonria too.

    btw, we could put dragons in Ull but they'd have to be undead dragons. Erp. Excuse me.
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 3:59 pm  

    <Hold of Stone Fist? Wolf and Tiger Nomad lands? Gran March? Bissel? There are areas of GH where not much is going on and which could see some greater interest if, perhaps, dragons played a limited role there similar to the role giants have come to play in Geoff. Other suggestions?>

    What about the Uleks?
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:46 pm  

    What about Hepmonaland or the Amedio Jungle? Green dragons could fit, I'd think.
    GreySage

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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:49 pm  

    There's also Rockna, a brass dragon in Andre Norton's Quag Keep, who lives in the Sea of Dust.

    The Eyes Have It by Rose Estes actually has several pretty cool dragons, including an extremely ancient gold dragon called Buelath (in the Crystalmist Mountains) and Gorlyn (a red dragon in the Hellfurnaces).

    I added a couple of dragons to this article, one of them inspired by something in the canon (the red dragon is mentioned in the Book of Artifacts).

    There's also Ashardalon, a red dragon who looms large in 3.x lore beginning in the 3.0 Adventure Path. As of Bastion of Broken Souls he was living on the Positive Energy Plane, but his history on the Material Plane is prominent enough to give him credit as a semi-canonical (or non-canonical, loosely related) Greyhawk dragon.

    As for the list that Cebrion linked to, yes, several of them do jump off the page at me. Hautna Masq, Quagmire, and Falx (the grandson of Bahamut!) are all interesting dragons important to the setting. A number of others strike me as interesting and provocative (but then I'm a sucker for shadow dragons).

    As for "staying power," it's a meaningless criterion. There simply aren't that many Greyhawk adventures and sourcebooks, relatively speaking. We haven't seen Falx since Egg of the Phoenix because there haven't been any modules set in Aquaria since then. We haven't seen Quagmire since The Scarlet Brotherhood because there hasn't been anything set in the Pelisso Swamps since then. There haven't been many opportunities to use it.

    There could always be more dragons, though.
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:57 pm  

    The 'problem' with the dragons in GH is not that they don't exist.. they are all over the place. Its that they don't /do/ anything. Brazzemal dozes all day in the Hellfurnaces. There's that dragon in the Howling Hills that doesn't do much either. There's an ancient green dragon in the Dreadwood and some sort of black dragon in the Hool Marshes.

    All these complaints seem to me to boil down to the fact that the campaign world is static outside of the DM's campaign. Iuz never succeeds or fails. The dragons just sit in their caves. The sahuagin kingdom of the azure sea doesn't do anything. When there are Wars they get turned into draws that leave most of the world status quo ante bellum.

    Unlike the FR, there isn't a constant stream of new modules and novels and other crap to change around the setting. Personally, I'm glad that the publisher isn't trying to shove more stuff down my throat, especially given the general quality of their recent material. But it does mean that the same nasties from the 70s are still the nasties in the present.
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 6:27 pm  

    Personally, I've been mulling over a remaking of the Age of Worms AP with dragons as the major force behing it all - thus, the Age of Wyrms. Still set on Greyhawk, it would focus on the efforts of evil dragons and their human(oid) servants and cultists to bring about a new order of draconic rule of the Flanaess, and all of Oerth. Sort of a better Dragonlance epic on WoG. Cool
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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 8:15 pm  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I proposed something very similar to this for any new WoG campaign setting book, as well as for adventures, in way of attempting to come up with a format that would appeal to Greyhawk players regardless of what era of products they prefer. The eras I settled on for a campaign setting book were numbers 6, 7, and 8 in Glenn's list. Everything earlier was just part of the world history.

    That seems to be how fans of the setting break down- by product era. You've got the old skool folks who like the 83' boxed set/EGG only products and some other derivative material. You have those who use up to and including From the Ashes, and then those who use pretty much everything. that covers the vast majority of people so far as i can tell. Broken down by eras, any product can be made to deliver just what you want to use. For adventures, you set them up for play in the earliest era, and then have sidebars to alter the storeyline if you choose to set the adventure in a later era. Simple really.

    Yep. The only reason I suggested Myths, Origins, and Legends of Greyhawk was to add some detail to the Heroes, Villans, Artifacts, Relics, and Empires of Greyhawk's ancient world. There are many questions concerning GH lore such as - what was the Rain of Colorless Fire? Or what lies beyond the ocean? It seemed that a fourth book might be needed to allow the other volumes to focus.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:59 pm  

    There are indeed all over the place, and just because a critter is in an adventure most DMs think that it means they must offer that critter up on a platter for the PCs to kill. I've been guilty of this in the past myself. Dragons are very powerful and very intelligent, but if something is getting the better of them they are not usually stupid enough to hang around to be killed. They can of course simply fly away from danger most of the time. Vormaerin is spot on in that dragons aren't really seen to do much of anything. That is kind of the point though. Dragons getting too public about things will lead to people wanting to take them down.

    Dragons simply are not an overtly important race in Greyhawk(or in most campaign settings for that matter). They are not movers and shakers in the same way as the other humanoid races are, because they are rare. For as big as they are, dragons are very subtle(usually); particularly the good aligned ones. The main area of dragons we know of is Azor'alq, and we know what a secretive place that is. There could be many more dragons in Greyhawk though, and many in the areas which have not been given much attention. The Flanaess alone has a lot of mountains, wilderness, and badlands areas where they could be. The coldest regions of the area are not densely populated by the humanoid races, so I would expect that white dragons are probably the most numerous of dragon kind.

    One thing I ought to pass along about Dragons is that if you really just can't get enough of them, Eileen is working on a few articles about them. I have the first one already, and it is looking to be slated for The Oerth Journal #26. When I first discussed this project with her, I thought it would just be a generalized overview of dragons. Well, that was the glass nearly empty point of view. The first article I received is rather big, and covers pretty much every area the Flanaess, with more to come on dragons beyond the Flanaess.

    Atomic Pope: I would have the ancient eras covered in passing fashion in the regional books, but not in such detail that ancient era personas are statted out or anything like that. Artifacts and magic from ancient times is easy to present, and remains relevant in any era though. But, maps of the Suel and Baklunish empires pre-Cataclysms, as well as mps of the remainder of the Flanaess in ancient times, would be cool additions to such books. That would just go to sewing the seeds for others to do their own thing with the ancient era rather than have to develop the campaign setting more fully to include what is an unrelated era timeline-wise.
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    Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:55 am  

    Dragons get a fair crack in my campaign and I sort of ignore the suggestion that Volte in the Bright Desert could have been killed by Robilar on his own!

    We also playtested a level 12 green dragon against a party of 5 (3 x level 10, 1 x level 9, 1 x level 8). We ended up with 2 dead, one unconcious , and the remaining two in retreat, and she had about 1/3 of her hp left. I think that with so many hp, it is going to be easier to play a dragon as an npc in 4e than as mere canon fodder. At the very least, killing them is so time-consuming - it took us 7 hours and she still wasn't dead!
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    Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:33 am  

    Interesting thoughts RE: Dragons.

    I guess my takeaway is that while dragons may be found throughout the Flanaess, they are understated in the published setting to this point - ie they don’t do much beyond acting on a local level (most often as monsters to be encountered/killed in a published adventure).

    It is definitely my thought that this should be somewhat changed (making dragons play a more prominent role) to perk up some of the less developed areas of the Flanaess - addressing two issues at once. The model, IMV, is the way giants are used to flavor Geoff. In a limited part of the setting, Geoff, giants are the Big Bad Guys and lend to Geoff a character it otherwise would not have (Geoff: Land of the Giant Troubles). I see every reason dragons could and should be used similarly - but where?

    Mort identified the barbarian lands in and around the Corusk/Griff Mountains as being an area that could see more dragons active and he specifically mentioned Linnorm Dragons. I like this idea, the Linnorms, as “viking dragons” particularly fit the nebulously “viking” culture of the Snow, Ice and Frost Barbarians in and around the Corusks and Griffs. I think making Linnorms the dominant sort of dragon in that area would be a positive development. Linnorms are cool.

    Another area, that I think favors the more “normal” chromatic sort of dragons, are the lands in and around the Tiger and Wolf Nomads. In a Greychat the other week, the discussion turned to the highly uncertain nature of the culture of the Tiger and Wolf Nomads and how, once you get past the general idea of “barbarian horsemen,” there is not a lot of “there” there. Adding dragons to the mix in a Geoff sort of way would not immediately address the cultural question of the Wolf and Tiger Nomads but it would both call attention to an often ignored area and would give the Wolf and Tiger Nomads some greater sense of being - having to deal with lots of dragons.

    The lands of the Work and Tiger Nomads are relatively flat prairie and very large. Vast herds of animals of sufficient size could easily inhabit the area, providing a sufficient foodsource for dragons, particularly if one included border areas like the Burneal Forest, Cold Marshes and the more hospitable areas of the Barren Wastes (Darlene Map). Taken together, there is habitat for each of the chromatic sorts of dragons that make for good antagonists, again along the line of giants in Geoff. To wit:

    Red Dragons - Lair in the extreme norther Yatils adjacent to the plains of the Tiger and Wolf Nomads, particularly the spur that borders Lake Quag and the Fler River.

    Green Dragons - Lair in the Burneal Forest, north of the plains of the Tiger and Wolf Nomads.

    White Dragons - Lair in the literally Cold Marshes but, given the northern latitude, could lair almost anywhere.

    Black Dragons - Lair in the Cold Marshes, perhaps in the warmer areas closer to the Burning Cliffs in the Barren Wastes.

    Blue Dragons - Perhaps a few hardy individuals lair in the warm, even hot, areas of the Burning Cliffs region of the Barren Wastes.

    All of these dragons would prey on the abundant wildlife of the plains, forests, and marshes of the region. In this way, the lands of the Wolf and Tiger Nomads would become The Lands of Dragon Strife, much as Geoff can be said to be the Land of the Giant Troubles. Dragons would not dominate but they would be a constant, menacing presence - like giants in Geoff.

    The reputation of the mercenary bands of Perranland might even have been originally honed in fighting off dragons in that land, just south of Lake Quag.

    IMV, there is a lot of potential to working dragons more into the setting in discrete regions in a Next Gen GH.
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    Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:54 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I would have the ancient eras covered in passing fashion in the regional books, but not in such detail that ancient era personas are statted out or anything like that. Artifacts and magic from ancient times is easy to present, and remains relevant in any era though. But, maps of the Suel and Baklunish empires pre-Cataclysms, as well as mps of the remainder of the Flanaess in ancient times, would be cool additions to such books. That would just go to sewing the seeds for others to do their own thing with the ancient era rather than have to develop the campaign setting more fully to include what is an unrelated era timeline-wise.

    I don't like when campaign settings are "statted out." It makes it difficult for the DM to justify changes in the fluff because the mechanics gets in the way. Worse is when the mechanics change (1e/2e to 3e and now 3e to 4e) the campaign guide needs a new treatment. This only seems to affect dramatis persona, not artifacts/relics.

    I imagined a fluff book that contained worn or incomplete maps of ancient empires. The details of the empires would focus on their role and power in the ancient world. The maps should support the text. I'd like to see a well thought out city maps contrasting different cultures and their lifestyles. Their should also be a speculative section which outlines the empire's impact on modern history.

    Finally, I think a timeline would hinder the majesty. Calenders should be riddled with question marks to maintain the illusion.
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    Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:54 am  

    On the topic of dragons, there are some excellent articles available here, including:
    DRAGONS OF THE AERDY LANDS
    WYRMS OF THE FLANAESS: COPPERHEAD
    WYRMS OF THE FLANAESS: WANYROCATHYSTUS
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    Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:06 pm  

    I’ve been rethinking the time periods that might be summarized in a Next Gen GH. This is preliminarily what I have come up with. Note- BCY is Before the Common Year so add 600 years to date from CY591, minus 9 years. Necessarily, the time grouping are very large and then inexact.

    Pre-Human Period (Circa 8,000 BCY)

    Elven Realms:
    1) Velene (Forest realm encompassing modern Celene and stretching from the Suss through the Vesve, included Welkwood, Gnarley) Canon Ref - GH2000
    2) City of Summer Stars (Forest realm stretching from the Adri through the Grandwood) Canon Ref - Ivid the Undying

    Dwarven Realms:
    1) Radruundar (Mountain realm in Yatils) Canon Ref - Axe of the Dwarvish Lords
    2) Glorioles (Mountain realm in mountains of same name) Canon Ref - 83Box (name inferred)
    3) Thillonra (Mountain realm in Coriusk, Griffs, Rakers) Canon Ref - 83Box (name inferred)

    Humanoid Realms:
    1) Garek Enkdal (Orc Realm in Griffs) Canon Ref - Five Shall Be one

    Early Human Period (Circa 5000 BCY)

    Elven Realms:
    1) Velene - Robust
    2) City of Summer Stars - Decaying
    3) Kingdom of Syundi (Forest realm stretching from Rieuwood through the Menowood) Canon Ref - 83Box (inferred, spelling original)

    Dwarven Realms:
    1) Radruundar - Fallen
    2) Glorioles - Strong
    3) Thillonra - Pressed
    4) Kingdom of the Iron Hills (Hill/Mountain realm in Iron Hills) Canon Ref - 83Box, Dragon No.
    57

    Gnomish Realms:
    1) Kron Holds (Petty hill kingdoms in present day Kron Hills) Canon Ref - 83Box
    2) Kingdoms of Flynt (Petty hill kingdoms in present day Fint Hills) Canon Ref - 83Box (spelling original)

    Mixed Realms:
    1) Lort Freeholds (Dwarven, halfling, giantish, humanoid, elven petty states in Lort Mountains) Canon Ref - 83Box (inferred)
    2) The Good Hill Lands (Gnomish and halfling petty states) Canon Ref - 83Box (inferred)

    Humanoid Realms:
    1) Garek Enkdal - Growing

    Human Realms:
    1) Pesh (Pre-Flan kingdom stretching from Wolf & Tiger Nomads to Horned Society) Canon Ref - AoW
    2) Isles of Woe (Pre-Flan kingdom in Nyr Dyv) Canon Ref - The Adventure Begins
    3) Blackmoor (Pre-Flan kingdom in present day Blackmoor) Canon Ref - 83Box, DA3
    4) Galap (Pre-Flan kingdom in present day Hardby/Bright Desert) Canon Ref - Ghost Tower (name inferred from Galap-Dreidal)
    5) Cairn Builders (Pre-Flan kingdom in present day Cairn Hills, Domain of GH, Dyvers) Canon Ref - LGG (inferred)

    Early Flan Period (Circa 3000 - 1500 BCY)

    Elven Realms:
    1) Velene - Stable
    2) City of Summer Stars - Fallen
    3) Kingdom of Syundi - Stable

    Dwarven Realms:
    1) Radruundar - Fallen
    2) Glorioles - Stable
    3) Thillonra - Decayed
    4) Kingdom of the Iron Hills - Robust

    Gnomish Realms:
    1) Kron Holds - Stable
    2) Kingdoms of Flynt - Stable

    Mixed Realms:
    1) Lort Freeholds - Stable
    2) The Good Hill Lands - Stable

    Humanoid Realms:
    1) Garek Enkdal - Robust

    Human Realms:
    1) Pesh - Fallen
    2) Isles of Woe - Decayed
    3) Blackmoor - Fallen
    4) Galap - Fallen
    5) Cairn Builders - Fallen
    6) Rhuga/Ronhas/Durha/Truun/ (Flan petty states in Bright Desert region) Canon Ref - Dungeon 98
    7) Itar (Flan state in eastern Bright Desert region) Canon Ref - Dungeon 98
    8) Sulm (Flan state in Bright Desert region) Canon Ref - Dungeon 98
    9) Veralos (Flan state in Bandit Kingdoms region) Canon Ref - Dragon 293
    10) Tostenhca (Flan state in Griff Mts) Canon Ref - GH Adventures
    11) Ahlissa (Flan State in modern Ahlissa) Canon Ref - LGG
    12) Clanholds of the Yaheetes (Northern non-Flan people in present day Furyondy) Canon Ref - Tome of Artifacts
    13) Kingdom of the Sheldomar (Flan kingdom eventually ruled by Vecna) - Canon Ref - Various (name approximate from geography)

    Late Flan/Pre-Migration Period (Circa 1500 - 500 BCY)

    Elven Realms:
    1) Velene - Decaying
    2) City of Summer Stars - Fallen
    3) Kingdom of Syundi -Fallen

    Dwarven Realms:
    1) Radruundar - Fallen
    2) Glorioles - Stable
    3) Thillonra -Fallen
    4) Kingdom of the Iron Hills - Stable

    Gnomish Realms:
    1) Kron Holds - Stable
    2) Kingdom of The Flinty Hills - Stable

    Mixed Realms:
    1) Lort Freeholds - Stable
    2) The Good Hill Lands - Stable

    Humanoid Realms:
    1) Garek Enkdal - Stable

    Human Realms:
    1) Pesh - Fallen
    2) Isles of Woe - Fallen
    3) Blackmoor - Fallen
    4) Galap - Fallen
    5) Cairn Builders - Fallen
    6) Rhuga/Ronhas/Durha/Truun/Itar - Fallen
    7) Sulm - Kingdom having conquered Rhuga/Ronhas/Durha/Truun/Itar
    8) Veralos - Fallen
    10) Tostenhca - Fallen
    11) Ahlissa - Decayed
    12) Clanholds of the Yaheetes - Fallen (the Yaheetes remained but without a kingdom)
    13) Empire of Vecna (absorbed & expanded Kingdom of Sheldomar) Canon Refs - Various
    14) Rover Cultures (dominant Flan groupings unorganized beyond the tribal level found throughout the Flanaess see Rovers of the Barrens) Canon Ref - None (inferred)

    Early Modern Era (500 BCY to 500 CY)

    Elven Realms:
    1) Velene -Fallen
    2) City of Summer Stars - Fallen
    3) Kingdom of Syundi -Fallen
    4) Celene - (Elven realm all that remains of souther Velene) Canon Ref - GH2000, 83Box

    Dwarven Realms:
    1) Radruundar - Fallen
    2) Glorioles - Decayed
    3) Thillonra -Fallen
    4) Kingdom of the Iron Hills - Stable
    5) Principality of Ulek Canon Ref - 83Box

    Gnomish Realms:
    1) Kron Holds - Fallen
    2) Kingdom of The Flinty Hills - Stable

    Mixed Realms:
    1) Lort Freeholds -Fallen
    2) The Good Hill Lands -Fallen
    3) Highfolk (all that remains of northern Velene) Canon Ref GH2000, 83Box
    4) Sunndi (named for ancient Syundi) Canon Ref 83Box

    Humanoid Realms:
    1) Garek Enkdal - Stable

    Human Realms:
    1) Pesh - Fallen
    2) Isles of Woe - Fallen
    3) Blackmoor - Fallen
    4) Galap - Fallen
    5) Cairn Builders - Fallen
    6) Rhuga/Ronhas/Durha/Truun/Itar - Fallen
    7) Sulm - Fallen
    8) Veralos - Fallen
    10) Tostenhca - Fallen
    11) Ahlissa - Fallen
    12) Clanholds of the Yaheetes - Fallen
    13) Empire of Vecna - Fallen
    14) Rover Cultures - Fallen
    15) Aerdi Empire (at its height during period) Canon Ref - LGG
    16) Kingdom of Keoland (at its height during period) Canon Ref - LGG

    Modern Period (Circa 500 - 600 CY) Canon Ref - 83Box, FtA & LGG

    Next Gen GH Period (Circa 625 CY) New

    Obviously maps for the first 5 periods (I’m thinking a half page for all but the first, which could be eliminated) would need be abbreviated and limited to a particular date. So, the ebb and flow of borders would not be possible to reproduce with accuracy. Still, I think a lot could be done working for the above outline, even understanding the inherent imperfections.

    The sixth period (Modern) should probably have 3 maps, each one third of a page, so one page in total. Again, it won’t be perfect but I think it would be waaaaay better than what we have now which is almost nothing.

    One caveat is that, while the above attempts to look to canon by one degree or another, a Next Gen GH could also introduce new ancient realms or civilizations. There are obvious holes that could stand filling to at least a partial degree.

    Anyway, YMMV.

    Thoughts?

    Did I miss something that should included in one period or another?
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    Tue Aug 19, 2008 11:31 pm  

    The dwarven kingdom in the Glorioles is called Glorvardum.

    The civilization that built the Doomgrinder lived about 8,000 years ago, according to the module of the same name.

    I wouldn't characterize Pesh as a "kingdom." All we know for sure is that it's a field. My own guess is that the battle happened to be fought there because the forces of Chaos were entering the world through White Plume Mountain, thanks to their alliance with the Leviathan beneath, but that's all speculation on my part. Still, if there was a Wind Duke settlement on Oerth, I would expect it to be nearer to the Cairn Hills, the site of their burial cairns, and very near the Eternal Storm of the Wind Dukes in the Abbor-Alz. I don't see any reason to assume the existence of any sort of political state in the area of Pesh. But who knows? There might have been something there. In any case, by 5000 BCY Pesh had long since been transformed into the Rift Canyon. The Mystery of Exag dates the Battle of Pesh at more than 15,000 years ago - I'd prefer something closer to a million, personally, since the event predates the dominance of the modern race of demons in the Abyss.

    There were no gnomes in the Good, Flint, or Kron Hills until, at the earliest, a few centuries before the Great Migrations, if we're to believe the history of the gnomes in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. The history of White Plume Mountain tells us that Keraptis had gnomish servants around -800 CY, but I don't think we can infer large settlements of rock gnomes in the Flanaess much before that.
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