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    Canonfire :: View topic - Reconciling Ricard Damaris' history
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    Reconciling Ricard Damaris' history
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
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    Sat Apr 04, 2009 12:28 pm  
    Reconciling Ricard Damaris' history

    From Greyhawk: Folk, Feuds, and Factions, p. 63:
    Quote:
    Ricard is 36 years old [in 582 CY].... He also has a nine-year-old daughter, Clarissa....


    From The Adventure Begins, p. 106:
    Quote:
    [Ricard's] 15-year-old daughter [in 591 CY], Clarissa, is spoiled rotten.


    From Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, p. 10:
    Quote:
    The swordsman Ricard Damaris joined up with Robilar in the Village of Hommlet, just outside the Temple of Elemental Evil years after that bastion of darkness fell in the infamous Battle of Emridy Meadows.... Ricard accompanied Robilar... into the ruined temple on three occasions.... When later successes in the dungeons of Castle Greyhawk allowed him enough gold to found the Green Dragon Inn, Robilar turned to Damaris to manage the place for him.


    From Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, p. 14:
    Quote:
    For more than thirty years [in 597 CY], adventurers have favored the Green Dragon Inn.... If asked about ["Quij's Plate"], Ricard smiles wistfully and recalls that the orc was a regular patron years ago but disappeared after Lord Robilar was run out of town back in 570 CY.


    From Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk, p. 15:
    Quote:
    At the age of twenty-five, Ricard Damaris fought in one of the most pivotal battles in modern history on the fields of Emridy Meadows.... Years later, in the Village of Hommlet, Ricard fell into service with Lord Robilar.... Thirty-six years ago, when Robilar asked him to... run the Green Dragon Inn, Damaris jumped at the chance.... The tall, gruffly handsome man looks about a decade younger than his sixty-one years.... Ricard's wife, Florence, and his twenty-six-year-old daughter have moved....


    So, when was Ricard really born? When did he meet Robilar? When was the Green Dragon founded? Help!!!
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sat Apr 04, 2009 2:33 pm  

    In this case, I'd go by the most recent source, assuming the authors knew the original history and changed it for a reason (to better integrate Robilar into the history of the Green Dragon Inn).
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: May 12, 2005
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    Sat Apr 04, 2009 5:23 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    In this case, I'd go by the most recent source, assuming the authors knew the original history and changed it for a reason (to better integrate Robilar into the history of the Green Dragon Inn).


    The problem is that the newest source is self-contradictory. Robilar couldn't ask Ricard to run the Green Dragon 36 years ago if they didn't meet until after Emridy Meadows.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sat Apr 04, 2009 7:45 pm  

    The simple answers to your questions are 'however it would work best for the story you are telling.' That's the only way to handle things when canon contradicts itself.
    Forum Moderator

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    Sat Apr 04, 2009 8:58 pm  

    Back when I was writing my Emridy Meadows article for CF I had an iffy feeling about Ricard and Robilar's relationship, but I had no idea canon dates on Ricard's personal life was so skewed. I'm lucky I just gave him a passing mention in the article. Good luck untangling that, I would also go with what best fits your campaign.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

    Joined: Feb 16, 2003
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    Sat Apr 04, 2009 9:42 pm  

    This is a bit of a sore point for me when comparing later material to earlier, but it is a good thing to bring up for discussion as it may foster a whole slew of ideas on the subject. It will be good to see some ideas on this particular issue, as I don't recall it coming up before.

    I wouldn't assume the rigthtness of any later source, particularly as later authors seemingly change things willy nilly to suit their own writing and not stick to what has come before. It lends a sense of unimportance to what has come before. This is major error on the part of later authors in my opinion, as the overall affect is to create chaos of the setting's history through lack of continuity- either due to ignorance or through simply ignoring or altering the material so as not to have to work within previous parameters. The overall effect is obviously not a good one, as it just makes mess of things and, well, leads to discussions like this one. Laughing

    As many of the later authors seem to have done, I'd reconcile the material so that it best fits your own campaign, though it's not as if you need any justification to do that anyways. Wink Make it your own as you see fit.
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    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:29 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    I wouldn't assume the rigthtness of any later source.


    I wouldn't either, but I'd prefer the later source in this particular case, since (like the authors) I want Robilar to have a role founding the Green Dragon Inn.

    But actually crunching the numbers, it looks like the most recent authors were just throwing a bunch of random dates at the characters, so it'd probably be best to stick with Sargent and Niles, who seem to have a better grip on what they were doing. So Damaris was born in 546 and Clarissa was born in 573. And Damaris is 51, rather than 61; no wonder he looks a decade younger.

    As for "do what works best in your campaign," that goes without saying; presumedly if DMPrata had a preference already, he wouldn't have needed to ask, so that strikes me as unhelpful.

    So assuming Damaris was born in 546 CY (as FFF implies), he would have been 23 at the Battle of Emridy Meadows, which isn't too far off. And Clarissa is 24 in 597.

    The Battle of Emridy Meadows was in 569, although I think there's some
    discrepancy even there.

    Robilar is assumed to have sacked the Temple of Elemental Evil in 579 CY (since the module takes place ten years after the battle; I don't think anyone was mucking about the ruins before then), but he probably should have been friends with Damaris for years at that point. Say they already knew each other, and that's why they joined up later on.

    36 years before 597 is 561, which is when the Citadel of Eight was founded; this seems much too early for the Green Dragon Inn to be founded. Robilar didn't even subdue the green dragons he named it after until fairly late, after the dungeon-delving of his early adventures had given away to heavy outdoor adventuring (and after his voyage to Hepmonaland). So say 30 years before, making the inn founded in 567; this feels like plenty of time for him to have grown rich adventuring beneath the castle and to start investing in businesses. I would assume he already knew Damaris at the time, but at the age of 21 he was still an adventurer, not yet ready to settle down until after the Battle of Emridy Meadows two years later. So someone else manages the inn until then, Ricard and Robilar adventure together beneath Castle Greyhawk, and Damaris takes over the inn from whoever was watching it before in 569 or 570. Damaris still, at this point, occasionally travels with Robilar now and then until his daughter was born three years later. If he plays a role in helping Robilar sack the ruined temple in 579, it's a special event; he's mostly retired at this point, and perhaps he wants one last journey with his old friend for old time's sake.

    That makes sense to me, anyway.
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:48 pm  

    The dates seem incompatible but wiggle room does exist if you use historic methods. Few people could read the calendar and most events were spread by word of mouth. Even the written record was not reliable so explain discrepencies as errors by criers and scribes. Local gossip and tales always seek to emphasis the famous establishments.

    The Green Dragon Inn been here long time since 500? - 550? - 560? - 569: 569 sounds right; Grandpa helped build it, friends with Lord Robilar until he went bad, he saved the city.

    That sort of thing Wink
    Master Greytalker

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    Sun Apr 05, 2009 4:42 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    But actually crunching the numbers, it looks like the most recent authors were just throwing a bunch of random dates at the characters, so it'd probably be best to stick with Sargent and Niles, who seem to have a better grip on what they were doing. So Damaris was born in 546 and Clarissa was born in 573. And Damaris is 51, rather than 61; no wonder he looks a decade younger.

    As for "do what works best in your campaign," that goes without saying; presumedly if DMPrata had a preference already, he wouldn't have needed to ask, so that strikes me as unhelpful.

    So assuming Damaris was born in 546 CY (as FFF implies), he would have been 23 at the Battle of Emridy Meadows, which isn't too far off. And Clarissa is 24 in 597.

    The Battle of Emridy Meadows was in 569, although I think there's some
    discrepancy even there.

    Robilar is assumed to have sacked the Temple of Elemental Evil in 579 CY (since the module takes place ten years after the battle; I don't think anyone was mucking about the ruins before then), but he probably should have been friends with Damaris for years at that point. Say they already knew each other, and that's why they joined up later on.

    36 years before 597 is 561, which is when the Citadel of Eight was founded; this seems much too early for the Green Dragon Inn to be founded. Robilar didn't even subdue the green dragons he named it after until fairly late, after the dungeon-delving of his early adventures had given away to heavy outdoor adventuring (and after his voyage to Hepmonaland). So say 30 years before, making the inn founded in 567; this feels like plenty of time for him to have grown rich adventuring beneath the castle and to start investing in businesses. I would assume he already knew Damaris at the time, but at the age of 21 he was still an adventurer, not yet ready to settle down until after the Battle of Emridy Meadows two years later. So someone else manages the inn until then, Ricard and Robilar adventure together beneath Castle Greyhawk, and Damaris takes over the inn from whoever was watching it before in 569 or 570. Damaris still, at this point, occasionally travels with Robilar now and then until his daughter was born three years later. If he plays a role in helping Robilar sack the ruined temple in 579, it's a special event; he's mostly retired at this point, and perhaps he wants one last journey with his old friend for old time's sake.

    That makes sense to me, anyway.


    I was hoping one of the EttRoG authors would pop in here and say, "Oh, that was an editorial error. I meant __________." Still, rasgon's reasoning seems sound (as usual).
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2006
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    Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:22 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    I was hoping one of the EttRoG authors would pop in here and say, "Oh, that was an editorial error. I meant __________." Still, rasgon's reasoning seems sound (as usual).


    Not likely. I recently read an interview with Erik Mona and he is both busy with and more interested in Paizo's World of Golarion. I am not surprised by this, the Paizo crew has moved on.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 16, 2007
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    Sat Apr 11, 2009 6:30 am  

    Saracenus wrote:
    DMPrata wrote:
    I was hoping one of the EttRoG authors would pop in here and say, "Oh, that was an editorial error. I meant __________." Still, rasgon's reasoning seems sound (as usual).


    Not likely. I recently read an interview with Erik Mona and he is both busy with and more interested in Paizo's World of Golarion. I am not surprised by this, the Paizo crew has moved on.


    Not only have they moved on, they're taking advantage of WoTC's recent PDF screwup to make some serious money.
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