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    Canonfire :: View topic - Mord's Hair
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    Mord's Hair
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:19 am  
    Mord's Hair

    I was just wondering…
    In earliest products illustrations, Mordenkainen has long hair and beard.
    But in recent products illustrations, he’s bald with a goat.
    Is there any known reason to this baldness?
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:23 am  
    Re: Mord's Hair

    Galliskinmaufrius wrote:
    I was just wondering…
    In earliest products illustrations, Mordenkainen has long hair and beard.
    But in recent products illustrations, he’s bald with a goat.
    Is there any known reason to this baldness?


    yeah.
    because of those damn kids!

    the same reason why elves got piercings, and some warriors have spiked armor sholders that should pierce their head in the first movement.


    oh, and the same reason theres a "emo" strahd von zarovich now
    http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dx1006ex2_100536.jpg
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 4:43 am  

    Is it really for this reason?
    Oh, geez, damn kids!
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:14 am  

    I think it was Sam Wood (one of the 3rd edition conceptual artists, who also worked on some of the late-1990s Greyhawk products) who decided that Mordenkainen's old hair style seemed too 1970s, and decided to give him a bald look instead.

    And yeah, he's responsible for the piercings that some 3rd edition characters have, too (though I think those are appropriate for those with significant Flan heritage), and partially responsible for the spiked armor (also blame Todd Lockwood), but Strahd's new look isn't his fault.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:42 am  

    OK, I'd liked, or wished, or hoped, that there was a story linked to this change of haircut. Something like... he made an oath, he lost a bet, or wielded some magic which made all his hair fall. Some cursed artefacts can make all your hair fall if you touch them...
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 5:43 am  

    Nothing so interesting. He just decided to change his look.

    Maybe it had something to do with the emotional changes he went through after Tenser came back to life and rejected him.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:11 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think it was Sam Wood (one of the 3rd edition conceptual artists, who also worked on some of the late-1990s Greyhawk products) who decided that Mordenkainen's old hair style seemed too 1970s, and decided to give him a bald look instead.

    And yeah, he's responsible for the piercings that some 3rd edition characters have, too (though I think those are appropriate for those with significant Flan heritage), and partially responsible for the spiked armor (also blame Todd Lockwood), but Strahd's new look isn't his fault.


    oh, i dont blame him for strahd haircut, but i blame those darn kids! Laughing
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:14 am  

    I don't remember exactly where I read it; but in one of the books it said something like Mordy was begining to go bald, so he decided to just shave it off entirely. Nothing about the goatee look though....frankly I'm with those who are saying its just because it is/was the "in" look now.

    God, I hate that kinda crap....Mordy's is in his 80s-90s people, I really don't think he gives a flyin' fig for trendy styles Smile ...but whatever...

    I am curious about the comment that piercings would make sense for Flan.....Why? The Original Flan were based off of Native Americans/ Aborigines.....to my knowledge, these groups don't have any great history of piercings...but maybe I'm missing something?
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:43 am  

    I think that he really just lost it all in a premature delayed blast fireball detonation. Embarassed Rather than admit he mistimed his spell he claimed it was intentional because he 'liked the look' and now he either needs to admit he was wrong or stick with the chrome dome... and he is NEVER wrong.
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:18 am  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    I am curious about the comment that piercings would make sense for Flan.....Why? The Original Flan were based off of Native Americans/ Aborigines.....to my knowledge, these groups don't have any great history of piercings...but maybe I'm missing something?


    The Flan are their own thing, and they look good with piercings.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:41 am  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    The Original Flan were based off of Native Americans/ Aborigines.....to my knowledge, these groups don't have any great history of piercings...


    They don't, particularly. Confused

    Interestingly, something not often commented upon is the fact that several native american tribes were known to practice a limited form of cannibalism; the warriors were known to take a bite out of their enemies heart and eat it . . . raw, of course. Shocked Embarassed

    It supposedly instilled in them a portion of their enemy's courage. Wink

    (*Hmmm, I wonder if the Flan do that*) Shocked Evil Grin
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:16 am  

    Well to each thier own; but personally, other than earrings in women, I don't think piercings look good on anybody...but that's just me...

    As for the Flan eating thier enemies hearts....I could see the Rovers and certainly the Fists possibly doing that...
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:56 am  

    If I recall correctly. the 'eating your enemy to gain his courage (or strength, or skill, or whatever)' was fairly common among many early cultures. It seems to be a holdover from the earliest cultures of mankind.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:55 pm  

    Vulcan wrote:
    If I recall correctly. the 'eating your enemy to gain his courage (or strength, or skill, or whatever)' was fairly common among many early cultures.


    Too true, but I was responding to the fact that the Flan culture was influenced by native american tribes, not on the many other earthly cultures with this custom. Wink

    No particular culture was being singled out for reproach, or disrespect.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:05 pm  

    Nah.. he's obviously thinking of lichdom and he is using the hair as a phylactery! Razz
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:28 pm  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    I don't remember exactly where I read it; but in one of the books it said something like Mordy was begining to go bald, so he decided to just shave it off entirely. Nothing about the goatee look though....frankly I'm with those who are saying its just because it is/was the "in" look now.

    God, I hate that kinda crap....Mordy's is in his 80s-90s people, I really don't think he gives a flyin' fig for trendy styles Smile ...but whatever...



    True enough, he's in his 80's or 90's but he's obviously kept himself youthful through magical means. That means a younger libido and it means that obviously he's out scamin on chicks down at ye olde drinkin hole every weekend. As much as you'd think that being a powerful wizard would be a chick magnet, more often then not its just something that's likely to be received as something creepy. Besides, someone like Mordy is going to be too proud to use magic to solve every problem he faces.

    As the wandering minstrels of ZZ Top pointed out, "Every girls crazy about a sharp dressed man."

    And before you point it out the fact that two of them have long beards as well, Mordys a Wizard, not Bard, they can get away with stuff that he can't.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:30 pm  

    I hate all that 3E art, bondage teifling, Hot Topic drow, spiked armor, piecing crap sooo much. I stopped subscribing to Dungeon somewhere around #80 but recently picked up some later period issues for the Greyhawk maps and other content. Flipping through the pages, I was ready for the rule changes and oversized, incomprehensible stat blocks. It was the hipster/emo wannabe fantasy art, however, that made me feel completely alienated from the magazine I grew up with and once loved.

    Anyway, to get on topic, Mordy's new look has no rhyme or reason. Some dumbass just decided to make him look like Anton LeVay.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:51 pm  

    I thought they were trying to make him look more like Sean (K. Reynolds)

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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:55 pm  
    Haircuts and other forums.

    Well, you know it's interesting ... Mordenkainen's haircut came up in the Welcome to Greyhawk forums just the other day ...
    Cebrion wrote:
    Mordenkainen still has hair. He just shaves his head for some unknown reason. Question

    I blame Picard fans. Razz


    Yeah, well ... maybe he just thinks that a bald head, VanDyke beard and a moustache with with waxed curls was a really cool look! Yeah! And he doesn't care if his Mom doesn't like it, and you're not very nice for saying .... Shocked
    Embarassed Um, hang on a sec. N-nevermind. I just, um, was guessing ... and stuff. There's no personal issues here, at all. Wink

    Seriously though ... I think that Mordenkainen did look a little outdated, and I think that the change was likely made to make him look more mysterious and less "hermit-who-doesn't-care-about-appearance". There's a little Dr. Strange element in there, and if you've ever seen the cover by Greg staples on Living Greyhawk Journal No.9, there definately *is* a similarity to Anton LaVey (not that I am particularly fond of the guy. You know, Church of Satan, and all.) Nevertheless, they did just shave it off with no warning. I am trying to think of the first appearance of the bald look. I know that it took me awhile to realize it was supposed to be him on the cover of the LGG ... anyone else remember the first time they saw it?

    (and yes, I did change my profile photo back specially for this thread. Wink )
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    Last edited by Icarus on Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:59 pm  

    Great pics, boys!

    rasgon wrote:
    maxvale76 wrote:
    I am curious about the comment that piercings would make sense for Flan.....Why? The Original Flan were based off of Native Americans/ Aborigines.....to my knowledge, these groups don't have any great history of piercings...but maybe I'm missing something?


    The Flan are their own thing, and they look good with piercings.


    In order to make piercings, some metalsmith skills are needed. But I don't think Flan are good metalsmiths. Oerids are, but I think Flan would like feathers, bones, leather or shells to ornate themselves.
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    Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:02 pm  
    Re: Haircuts and other forums.

    Icarus wrote:
    I know that it took me awhile to realize it was supposed to be him on the cover of the LGG ... anyone else remember the first time they saw it?


    The same for me: I said to myself "Who is this guy?"

    BTW, your look is kool!
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:48 am  

    Galliskinmaufrius wrote:
    In order to make piercings, some metalsmith skills are needed. But I don't think Flan are good metalsmiths. Oerids are, but I think Flan would like feathers, bones, leather or shells to ornate themselves.


    I think many of the Flan had a roughly Bronze Age culture (certainly Vecna's culture had metalsmithing, since they were wielding swords) until the Great Migrations, after which they learned Iron Age techniques from the Oeridians and Suel.

    (besides which, it's perfectly possible to make piercings out of wood and bone)

    I think it's a mistake to view the Flan as a whole as equivalent to native Americans, although the northern plains-dwellers may have been similar. Other Flan kingdoms like Sulm, Itar, Vecna's empire, Caerdiralor, Tostenhca, Ahlissa, the Isles of Woe, and Veralos seemed much more technologically sophisticated.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:02 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    I think it's a mistake to view the Flan as a whole as equivalent to native Americans, although the northern plains-dwellers may have been similar. Other Flan kingdoms like Sulm, Itar, Vecna's empire, Caerdiralor, Tostenhca, Ahlissa, the Isles of Woe, and Veralos seemed much more technologically sophisticated.


    Enter the North American plains tribes southern "cousins" . . . the Aztec, Inca and Maya! Who looked upon their northern "cousins" and immediately asked . . . "Who are these barbarians?" Evil Grin Laughing Laughing Laughing
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:14 am  

    Quote:
    Enter the North American plains tribes southern "cousins" . . . the Aztec, Inca and Maya! Who looked upon their northern "cousins" and immediately asked . . . "Who are these barbarians?"
    and the Inca at least were fairly advanced as far as metal smithing (given the metals available to them).
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:25 am  

    Very true. Historians like to point out that the main difference between the northern and southern indians were the mountains. Meaning this . . . Confused

    The Iroquois League (the Six Nations) controlled a territory equal to, or greater than that of their southern cousins. From deep inside Canada all the way to Florida, from the Mississippi river to the Atlantic Ocean, all tribes paid tribute to them or suffered the consequences. But the Iroquois lived in a great forested area, not "rocky" mountains (I'm not referring to the mountain range of that name). Wink

    So, the Iroquois built out of wood, which does not endure, whereas the Inca, Aztec and Maya built out of stone . . . and, so, endures to this day. Happy
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:09 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Enter the North American plains tribes southern "cousins" . . . the Aztec, Inca and Maya!


    Well, we already have the Olman as a parallel of the Central American nations. The Flan seem to be something else entirely. I think the native Americans are a poor parallel to them.
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:33 am  

    I did not necessarily mean as a "direct" comparison; but Gary DID base them off of Native American and Aboriginal groups; much as the Oeridians are a kind of Mediterranean peoples (Roman in appearence, but Frank-like in nature), Baklunish are Persian/Arabic and the Suel are Northern European/Albino-esque in appearence and a culture that's not easily compared to any in history.

    Later on; for some bizarre reason, some of the Living Greyhawk people decided to make the Flan rather Celt like; personally, I don't like this at all: there's enough Celtic-esque fantasy stuff out there to choke a horse; I rather like the Native American/Aboriginal aspect of the Flan.

    To build on what others are saying: yes, I agree that many of the Flan's ancient cities/kingdoms were quite advanced.....I rather like the comparison of the Mayan/Aztec/Iriquous and more nomadic Native Americans like the Plains groups. Also; while my comparison was a general one; not an absolute one; it's a free DM's world out there; shape your vision of Oerth as you like and I'll do the same. Happy
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:54 am  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    I did not necessarily mean as a "direct" comparison; but Gary DID base them off of Native American and Aboriginal groups


    While the Rovers are clearly based on Plains Indians, at least partially, in an interview, Gygax said he actually had "Hamitic" African groups in mind for the Flan - at least appearance-wise - and denied any Australian Aborigine connection.

    The Celtic comparison comes from the druidic nature of the Flan religion, and the fact that bards are connected to druids in 1st edition AD&D (and thus the Old Lore bards in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer). I was a bit chagrined by this at first, since I originally had the Flan as pure American Indian analogues, but I now think the comparison is inevitable. Plus, if you're going to put stone circles in the Flanaess, it'd be weird for the native humans not to have religious rites in them - and that's another Celtic similarity (not that the historical Celts erected stone circles, but they did use them).

    I wouldn't want the Flan to be too Celtic in nature, but some amount can't be avoided.

    But anyway, many of the major Flan kingdoms don't seem either native American or Celtic in nature. And Oerth already has Aztecs.
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:11 pm  

    You know you'er absolutely right....I was remembering that piece with Gary wrong....for some reason, I was 'remembering' that he HAD compared them with Austrailian Aborigines....DOH! Embarassed

    Yeah, I agree with you about the stone circles and the Druidic/Bardic ties; I was thinking more along the appearence and everyday life in comparison. When Living Greyhawk was going on, I looked into it a bit and when they made the Flan of Geoff sound like a medievil English/Scottish/Irish analog, I just got annoyed.....

    Anyway; as I said before; I certainly agree that many of the "long ago" cities/nature of the Flan were much more advanced in many way that the Flan societies of recent history. Greyhawk seems to have quite a bit of "lost cities of long-forgotten advanced societies".... Happy
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:17 pm  

    I think of the Flan as more Celtic, than native american. Happy

    Both the Celts, and their predecessors the Picts (not related) painted themselves for war, just as the native americans did. Then there is the Stonehenge angle and the druids. The Celts were also metal workers at a very early date. Yes, the Flan are much more Celtic in nature than they are native north american. Evil Grin

    And of course, these are not all the comparisons that can be made. Cool

    By the way, the French are decended from the Germanic Franks, cousins of the Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Danes, Norse, et al. They are of Nordic descent, not Mediterranean descent. Wink
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:21 pm  

    Ok, I thought that the whole Flan/Celtic thing was outlined in The Bane of Llywelyn and To Find a King? Not saying I don't believe you guys or anything but wheres this EGG interview that I can see where he says that they're African?

    They're supposedly dark skinned but there are Dark Skinned Celts as well. When people think of Celts today most people think of the Irish but they started out somewhere in Eastern Russia, moved along the Med. Coast and into the Iberian Peninsula and Gaul before ever moving into Ireland. That being the case it seems like Spanish Celts would be the ideal basis for them.
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:20 pm  

    I don't know where that interview took place, sorry. Sad

    But the Celts, as you pointed out, were raiding the ancient Greeks before the time of Alexander.

    And the Canaanites were "Hamitic," descended from Ham's son Canaan, the actual recipient of Noah's curse. The ancient Canaanites did not look any different than modern day Palastinians, or Syrians do. They were not African in appearence, so the Flan need not be very dark skinned either. Shocked
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:31 pm  

    manus-nigrum wrote:
    Ok, I thought that the whole Flan/Celtic thing was outlined in The Bane of Llywelyn and To Find a King?


    Those aren't Greyhawk modules, and they don't mention the Flan. They're generic tournament modules set in the kingdom of Pellham on no particular world.

    If presenting them as dark-skinned Celts works for you, awesome. Out of curiosity, are the Rovers presented as primarily Celtic in your campaign as well?

    But personally, I'm with maxvale on this question. I think the Flan are more interesting if they've got heavy non-European influences; otherwise the Flanaess is too much an analogue of Europe for my tastes. I like that it's more mixed-up than that, and dungeons can be found buried on the continent that might resemble more the work of Mesopotamian, Egyptian, or more fantastic peoples.

    The interview in question (or, at least, an interview - I don't think this is the one I was thinking of) is preserved here: http://www.enworld.org/forum/archive-threads/121380-gary-gygax-q-part-viii-9.html#post2071627. What Gygax said was, "I can say that the Flan were not meant to be anything like the American Indians. they were of Hamatic-like racial origin, Negroes if you will. Little is known of them because they were generally absorbed into the waves of other peoples immigrating eastwards through the continent, so their culture was generally lost."

    So yes, it does sound like they were meant to be African in appearance, though as noted in the 1983 boxed set [page 13] their skin ranges from a lighter, almost coppery tone to "deepest brown."
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:42 pm  

    I don't want the Flanaess to be strictly "European" in "flavor," either. But I will remind you that some of the peoples we are talking about here were actually separated by oceans and continents on our own real world, thus our many differing delvelopemental stages. Confused

    Oerth needs to reflect just a little of that too. For innumerable cultures to develop totally separate and completely distinct on the same continent is straining it a bit. Even Russians exhibit some "asiatic" traits gleaned from their more oriental neighbors. Wink
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:43 pm  

    IMC the Flan and Rhenee are more Mediterranean in appearance. The Rovers and Nomads are based off of of various semi-nomadic cultures but their appearance is dark/olive skinned, with Flan being taller on average then their Rhenee counter parts.

    How do you pronounce Rhenee by the way? I always pronounce it Ren-ee.
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:28 pm  

    I've heard it both ren-ee like you mention and ren-a (long A sound)...I have no idea which is correct....

    Also, I was saying that the Oeridians were Mediterranean in appearence (olive-complected, brown haired people) and Frankish in culture (when the first appeared and were aggressively expanding to the east)....that's my take on them anyway! Happy

    As for the Flan; I have always seen them as African/Native American in appearence and while the day to day life of Flan in Geoff is quite different from those in Tenh which in turn is quite different from those of the Rovers of the Barrens; in general, I see them as a more native-american kind of people in everyday life. This is just my take....as I said before; I'm all "Celt-ed" out in fantasy.... Happy

    Also, I love History and I'm well aware of the migration of the Celts and that they were beign mentioned as far back in history as ancient Greece and Rome.....I was just thinking that to most people I know, if you say Celtic, probably the first thing they think of (other than the NBA team in Boston, Happy ) is Irish/English/Scottish peoples with paint on thier faces, fighting the Romans; the Fey, etc., etc.

    Again, to each thier own; but I'm with Rasgon; I like some non European flavor to my Flaness! Happy

    By the way; I have no idea how we got here from talking about Mordy's sudden hair-style change! Sorry for de-railing the thread! Happy

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:56 pm  

    I picture the Flan as California surfer-types with just a touch of Japanese tourist thrown in for flavor. Except for their appearance, of course.
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:10 pm  

    I remember reading somewhere that Gygax conceived the Rovers as being similar to some of the Russian steppe cultures, such as the Cossacks. I remember seeing pics of some early AD&D Greyhawk lead figures, and the Rovers in that series certainly looked like Cossacks to me.

    That said, IMC, Rovers are very plains Indianesque.

    I think the first hard association we saw of the Rovers=plains Indians was in the Dungeon adventure "Ghost Dance," and their status as such became solidified.

    The Flan of the Sheldomar, of course, seem very Celtic, and their dark skin can be equated with the swarthy Picts.

    The people of Tenh, despite their Africanesque heraldry, I see much like former plains Indians who assimilated & adopted the pseudo-European culture of the Oeridians & Suel. No jokes about casinos, please.

    Sulm I see as more of a Mesopotamian-influenced culture, neither Celt or Amerind. Their descendants I see somewhat like the Berbers or other nomadic tribes of Northern Africa.

    The Flan of Perrenland & Veluna I'm not sure on--perhaps Picts who adopted the prevailing Oeridian culture?
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:31 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    For innumerable cultures to develop totally separate and completely distinct on the same continent is straining it a bit.


    Nah. The Hellfurnace/Crystalmist/Yatil range is justification enough for making the Flannae culture very different from the Oeridians, Suel, and Baklunish who originated on the other side. While Native Americans were separated from Europeans by an ocean, the Flan aren't Native Americans, and the Oeridians aren't Europeans. And the amount of cultures in the Flanaess (or in Oerik, for that mater) is hardly innumerable.

    Robbastard's comparisons are very close to my thoughts on the matter, actually, though I'd prefer to take the Celtic interpretation of the Sheldomar Flan with a grain of salt (though certainly, the influence is there in my mind, I also like the Mesopotamian-looking appearance in the Vecna: Hand of the Revenant comic book). The best thing about the Greyhawk races is that, first and foremost, they're fantasy races - and that means we can do whatever we want with them without fear of historical comparisons limiting us. If someone wants the Flan to have big stone castles or pyramids or even facial piercings, they can have them without anyone having to worry about whether or not the Celts or American Indians or any other real-world culture had those things.

    And yes, the Oeridians and Rhennee are both said to be olive-skinned. The Flan are bronze or brown-skinned.
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:11 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I don't know where that interview took place, sorry. Sad

    But the Celts, as you pointed out, were raiding the ancient Greeks before the time of Alexander.

    And the Canaanites were "Hamitic," descended from Ham's son Canaan, the actual recipient of Noah's curse. The ancient Canaanites did not look any different than modern day Palastinians, or Syrians do. They were not African in appearence, so the Flan need not be very dark skinned either. Shocked


    In biblical terms the Canaanites were Hamitic, but so were the Egyptians, Cushites, and Libyans. This led to 19th century racial theory proposing a Hamitic sub-group of Caucasoids including dark-skinned groups in northeastern Africa who weren't classified as Negroid. This kind of racial thinking is now out of date. It also referred until fairly recently to non-Semitic Afroasiatic language groups and by extension among some to the people that spoke those languages. I think this is probably what Gygax was referring to, so he would have been speaking about Chadians, Ethiopians, and Somalis.

    This is how I've pictured them for some time so it was kind of nice for me to see that Gygax thought along those lines.

    As far as their culture I see it in a way similar to Rasgon, although I think they probably developed iron-working on their own, or at least learned it from Dwarves pre-Migration, although some groups may have lost that technology. Pre-migration I see them existing in several different ethnic groups that had a great deal of cultural variance, although they did share some similarities, the most notable that we know of being their pantheon of dieties.

    Culturally I see the Rovers more as a fusion of Siberian nomads and Plains Indians. The Tenh are related to them though they have adopted much of Oeridian civilization while maintaining their independence. The Stoneholders are somewhere in between with heavy Rhizian influence.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:16 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    The Hellfurnace/Crystalmist/Yatil range is justification enough for making the Flannae culture very different from the Oeridians, Suel, and Baklunish who originated on the other side.


    Actually, Rasgon, o'wiki tutor of mine, I was speaking about the differences being spoken about between the Flan "tribes" themselves, who were not separated by either oceans or vast mountain ranges. Happy

    I'm saying that -- culturally speaking -- there shouldn't be so great a difference between the various Flan tribes of the Flanaess as we see between native americans and europeans. The Flan tribes should be more culturally aligned then is being spoken of here. Confused

    You disagree? Question
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    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:57 pm  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    In biblical terms the Canaanites were Hamitic, but so were the Egyptians, Cushites, and Libyans. This led to 19th century racial theory proposing a Hamitic sub-group of Caucasoids including dark-skinned groups in northeastern Africa who weren't classified as Negroid. This kind of racial thinking is now out of date.


    Small digression here:

    Actually, its the phrase "biblical terms" that is out of date. The bible said nothing of race, it named the descendants of Shem, Japheth and Ham and from the names of these sons we get "place-names," so that we have a fair indication of where they all eventually settled. Wink

    Ham's son Canaan -- the one actually cursed -- did not father the black race. He fathered the Canaanites of the land of Canaan, a.k.a. Palestine. It was Ham's son Cush -- famous for "the land of Cush" -- who fathered Africans and Cush was not cursed, incidentally. Happy

    Japheth's son Javan (think Greece) fathered Tarshish (think Spain) and Kittim (think Cyprus), among others. Yep, the white people. Wink

    Now we have Shem the one especially blessed by God. Shem's sons currently speak Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese and Korean . . . to name but a few. Yep! The father of the yellow people was especially blessed by God. Evil Grin

    I know what you're thinking Smillan! And the answer is no . . . I'm a son of Japheth. Laughing Laughing Laughing

    I wasn't getting racial, Smillan, I was simply pointing out that, just because a person may be of Hamitic descent, that doesn't make them "dark of skin." Cool

    Our beloved EGG was incorrect to refer to the Flan as being Hamitic, because he envisioned them with dark skin. It would have been more proper for him to refer to having envisioned them as Cushites, who were dark of skin, but he should not have said Hamitic. All sons of Ham were not "dark of skin." Wink

    I'm just saying. Cool
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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:33 pm  

    No, no. I didn't think you were getting racial. I'm sorry if you took it that way. I was just explaining what I thought Gygax was referring to.

    Despite semantics though, I still think Gygax was referring to people who looked like Ethiopians, Chadians, Sudanese, and Somalis.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:42 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    I'm saying that -- culturally speaking -- there shouldn't be so great a difference between the various Flan tribes of the Flanaess as we see between native americans and europeans. The Flan tribes should be more culturally aligned then is being spoken of here.

    You disagree? Question


    There are certainly cultural similarities between disparate Flan groups. I'm certainly not saying that some groups of Flan are literally identical to American Indians while others are identical to Celts or Mesopotamians or what have you, just that some members of this fantasy ethnic group may superficially resemble some real-world cultures more than others.

    On the other hand, what we know as "Flan" should definitely have a wide variation between them, and they shouldn't be aligned in a single culture as such. The Flanaess is a big place, after all. So whether or not they should be "more culturally aligned than is being spoken of here," depends on what exactly you think is being spoken of here. My impression is that your impression of what's being spoken of is more exaggerated than my impression.
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 12:15 am  
    Haircuts

    SO!! How about those Iriquois and Inca haircuts and decorations, and whatnot?!!
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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:15 am  

    Vin Diesel with a few more years under his belt and a goatee...
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:01 am  
    Re: Haircuts

    Icarus wrote:
    SO!! How about those Iriquois and Inca haircuts and decorations, and whatnot?!!


    Icarus, you're a good friend and I really hate to disappoint, but . . .

    The Iroquois did not all wear "that hair cut." Sad

    For their first two hundred years the Iroquois were known as "The Five Nations," but they "finished" their last fifty years as "The Six Nations," after having admitted the Tuscarora into the Confederacy. The Iroquois were the Oneida, Cayuga, Onondaga, Seneca and Mohawk.

    Only the Mohawk wore "the hair cut," thus the name! Happy Cool Laughing Laughing Laughing

    Rasgon, I'm going to start another thread on this Flan discussion, because of something I was just reading in the OJ, last night. Hope to "see you" on the new thread. Cool
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    Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:38 pm  

    I realize this topic has been wandering a bit, but I thought I'd come in and set the record straight regarding Mordenkainen's hair.

    The culprit was not Sam Wood, but Todd Lockwood. I happened to be visiting the Wizards of the Coast office when Todd was painting the cover for the TSR JAM product, which came out in 1999 (I think). The book contained a short adventure from each of TSR's campaign settings at the time, so Todd was asked to illustrate an iconic character from each of the various campaign settings. That's why you've got Elminster in there, a prominent tiefling character from Planescape, Raistlin, etc.

    This was in the early days of the "Greyhawk '98" relaunch, and there weren't really any "iconic" Greyhawk characters, so they decided to use Mordenkainen. When I noticed that Todd had painted him bald, he said something like "that old disco haircut needed to go." It was basically a visual decision made my him because he thought the WG5 version looked dated.

    He also mentioned to me at the time that the model for the painting was fellow TSR artist Fred Fields, who is apparently bald and looks pretty much like Mordenkainen does on that TSR cover (apparently--I've never met him).

    So that's the story.

    --Erik
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    Wed Oct 14, 2009 9:57 pm  

    An excellent account Iquander! Thanks for chiming in, it's always good to have your unique insight on Greyhawk's development. Artistic license like that makes perfect sense to me now. I know alot of art from 1st edition also has outfits sporting stuff like bell-bottoms or big collars and such that surely don't appear in current fantasy art.
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    Thu Oct 15, 2009 8:54 pm  

    mortellan wrote:
    I know alot of art from 1st edition also has outfits sporting stuff like bell-bottoms or big collars and such that surely don't appear in current fantasy art.


    I think it would be refreshing to have some Jeff Dee bell-bottoms or Erol Otus funk-wear today, instead of the piercings, tattoos, irrationally oversized spikes, and phallic symbol weapons rampant in D&D lately.
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    Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:49 am  

    ..and old disco haircuts, too!
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    Wed Oct 21, 2009 1:53 am  

    iquander wrote:
    So that's the story.

    --Erik


    Well, thank you Iquander for the story. I remember TSR's Jam 99 Cover, too. The really first appearance of bald Mordy. The artist's choice, between Raistlin and Elminster, was baldness for contrast, because Mordenkainen could have also longer hair than in the late 70s (long hair and long beard like Gandalf, but he would have been to much like Elminster...).

    [EDIT] I found the story from the point of view of the artist on his site.

    On another cover : 1999 Greyhawk Player's Guide, I wonder who is the long grey haired man with a dog outside Greyhawk's walls? Does anyone know?
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:16 pm  

    I never really looked at the detail of the Player's Guide cover painting. No idea if the guy is supposed to be anybody. The thing that really got my attention was all the gold onion domes. It makes Greyhawk look like a weird mushroom farm.
    GreySage

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    Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:08 pm  

    Nice stuff Galliskinmaufrius. Cool

    I wonder who posed for the dragon? Confused

    Wink
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    Thu Oct 22, 2009 6:48 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Nice stuff Galliskinmaufrius. Cool

    I wonder who posed for the dragon? Confused

    Wink


    My mother-in-law.
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    Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:14 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    It makes Greyhawk look like a weird mushroom farm.


    Or it gives an oriental flavor to the city. And strengthens the "Greyhawk on Oerth = Istambul on Earth" theory.
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    Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:15 am  
    First appearance of Bald Mordy

    Well, I do have to say tha tI am glad that just a little up thread I asked if anyone knew where the bald depiction of Mordenkainen came from ... it is turning out to be very informative, and just plain fun!!

    We've had Iquander come in (and we haven't seen Erik in here in ages! Good to see him!) and even a link to commentary by Todd Lockwood himself (the originator artist for baldness in Mordenkainen). I think that I have to like his reasoning ... not every archmage fills the stereotype of a long-haired old sage-looking fella. I think that this has definately given Mordy a bit of character that fits his persona a bit more ... a bit more brooding, more mysterious, and it even looks as though he has a darker side (which we all know tha the has one). Shocked Happy

    As far as the fella with the long hair and the wolfhound on the Player's Guide, I haven't ever tought that he was anything more than a traveller, and the real focus is in the background.
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    Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:47 pm  
    Mordenkainen's hair

    I know that I'm coming into this one late but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway. There are plenty of reasons given above about the artist's decision to make him a baldy but how about an "in-game" reason?

    I always figured that Mordenkainen just got busy. From a purely gaming perspective, the man gained 6 or 7 epic levels in less than 10 years!
    My impression from the artwork I have seen of Mordenkainen is that his beard was always well groomed but his hair was, well.... kinda floppy. In other words he was vain about the beard but not the haircut. I can just see him getting so busy trying to restore balance to the flanaess that he couldn't be bothered wasting his time by visiting a barber periodically.

    Therefore he shaves the hair more as a matter of course, as he doesn't have the inclination or time to groom the floppy hairdo but can't part with his beloved beard. As a bearded man myself, I can definitely see that. Anyway, the badarse look really works if you want to play the legend-a mysterious, scary advisor who pops in to manipulate this ruler or that and moves on to the next one. In the past he could afford to be the a puppetmaster, an unassuming hermit or merchant in disguise, but during and after the Greyhawk Wars he had to take a personal, very public hand in a variety of conflicts. He is now known and the cat is out of the bag, so to speak.

    What's more, the continent is in turmoil in spiralling into worse! The archmage takes on a leaner, hungrier look because that is what the times call for and Mordenkainen (IMHO) does have something of an actor in his methods...

    What do you think?

    Damien.
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    Thu Nov 26, 2009 11:57 pm  

    Hello Damien,

    It was the purpose of my post in the beginning : I was looking for an "in-game" reason for Mordenkainen's baldness.

    Rasgon said : "he'd just shaved his hair for no reason"... I mean no "so interesting" reason.

    I hoped for an "in-game" reason like : it wasn't Mord's choice, it was something that fell upon him... and made his hair fall... Wink

    And your point about his new role and the actor methods can be such a reason.
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    Fri Nov 27, 2009 12:41 am  

    rasgon wrote:
    Maybe it had something to do with the emotional changes he went through after Tenser came back to life and rejected him.


    I'm sorry, rasgon did mention an "in-game" reason : when Tenser came back to life and rejected Mordenkainen. I'd like to know more about this drama!
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    Fri Nov 27, 2009 2:55 am  

    Galliskinmaufrius wrote:
    iquander wrote:
    So that's the story.

    --Erik


    [EDIT] I found the story from the point of view of the artist on his site.
    ?


    im late here too, but the story by the artist point is that he made mordy based on a image of another person?
    thats it?

    thats why mordy is bald?
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:23 am  

    Apparently so, Rossik.
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    Fri Nov 27, 2009 5:12 pm  

    Maybe he cut all his hair off for the same reason that I did. Male pattern baldness and he didn't want to end up with hair like this guy.
    GreySage

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    Fri Nov 27, 2009 6:53 pm  

    Smillan, is that your idea of "a fate worse than death?" Laughing
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    Sat Nov 28, 2009 8:54 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    Smillan, is that your idea of "a fate worse than death?" Laughing


    Nah man. I love having no hair now that I cut it all off. My hair was always a royal pain. Used to tangle like crazy. I had to condition and comb and all that crap. Now I just lather a little dimple of shampoo in, rinse and I'm good to go. Of course the ears get a little cold in winter. Wink
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