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    Canonfire :: View topic - more GH material revival for 4ed?
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    more GH material revival for 4ed?
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    Adept Greytalker

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    From: brazil

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 12:27 pm  
    more GH material revival for 4ed?

    its not a game specific topic, so i think theres no problem to post here, right?

    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20090814

    "July sees the Demonomicon as well as the next super-adventure following Against the Giants: 4th Edition's Tomb of Horrors!"

    i think its good news, as like when Village of Hommlet was released for 4ed, lots of people i know started searching for GH material, and so our community should grow too
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 1:26 pm  

    It appears to be a reformatting of the module and not a storyline change. I would hope that its "unveiling" will "sprout" some new interest and attention for all things Greyhawk, but many Greyhawkers already have ToEE and don't need or want the 4th edition.

    We'll have to wait and see how it plays out. Happy
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:28 pm  

    (*bubbagump shudders*)

    I'll try to keep an open mind, but...
    GreySage

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:42 pm  

    Now, now, Bubba, we can't actually slap "their" hand until they try to stick it into the cookie jar. Evil Grin
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    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:53 pm  

    (*bubbagump prepares to slap*)
    Adept Greytalker

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    From: brazil

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 2:54 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    (*bubbagump prepares to slap*)


    (*bubbagump could set a trap on the jar!*)
    Master Greytalker

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    Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:49 pm  

    Ooh! Good idea! Now where'd I put that bottle of contact poison...?
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:51 am  

    I am willing to bet Greyhawk will not even be mentioned in the module. I am glad I quit giving my money to Wizards.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:02 am  

    Chaoticprime, you're depressing yourself! Quit thinking such negative thoughts, there's always a slim chance -- a slim chance -- that something good may happen. Wink
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:46 am  

    Why oh why couldn't they have just sold the rights to Greyhawk to Paizo?

    Its not like that many of the new generation of gamers are going to be looking back on these re-issues with any fond memories of yesteryear. I bet you could call the ToEE the Temple of Pragmatism and Naughty Gnomes and the bulk of today's current crop of players would barely notice.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:59 am  

    Katerek wrote:
    Why oh why couldn't they have just sold the rights to Greyhawk to Paizo?


    Katerek, if either of us ever wins the lottery then we'll buy Greyhawk! Happy

    So was Paizo ever really interested in buying the franchise? Confused
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:07 am  
    4th Edition Sequel

    I was just saying the other day that I'd probably buy a 4th Edition sequel to T1-4 if it was Menzter's and then plan on converting it to 1st Edition.

    Where's that thread...:

    http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=38458&sid=eb454b328590af71ac51eeff8125e34f
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 9:18 am  

    WOTC wasn't about to sell Greyhawk because they wanted to mine it for all the good ideas it had, and leave behind the ones they didn't want to use anymore - something they couldn't do if they had sold the rights to it. Not that I agree on what all they are leaving behind, but that's the logic.

    And honestly folks - we REALLY need to stop seeing another "death knell" everytime WOTC grabs some of Greyhawk and uses it. Some of the newer folks may not know it, but if they research the stuff AT ALL, they'll find Greyhawk. Every reference WOTC throws into 4E is another link that someone can follow back on their own. Sure its not whole cloth, but, to be perfectly honest, we are NEVER in any short amount of time frame, going to see a full on Greyhawk. The only way that happens is if people like those of us who play 4E actually put effort into making a full on greyhawk, and then it only works for our campaigns. That ship sailed with 3.5, let it go until it makes port again and keep up the fan works until then! I love Canonfire, but I really get tired of hearing yet another round of 4E hate in regards to how they are raping greyhawk. Its done, leave it at done. Horse. Stick. Dead.

    Sorry folks, I know how it makes you feel, and I REALLY do understand, but more grumbling isn't going to change it - we just aren't as well heard by WOTC as the hoards on their message boards yelling that Greyhawk as a whole is not worth the time. The fact that they keep mining it for ideas shows that the designers at least do still hold it dear in their hearts, but they are going where they perceive their customer base is - squeakiest wheel gets the oil after all.

    Now back on topic :D

    Tomb of Horrors for 4E? oh HECK yeah! Its only the most timeless and unique adventure of all time! And they'd have to work to erase all the greyhawk links. And if anyone does any research into it, we'll get a another round of folks looking into Greyhawk...YAY! It'll be interesting to see how they convert it. I know how I'd do it, but they may do some really cool stuff with it. Of course they may completely bomb it, but that is less likely. I'm glad against the giants is seeing print too. And it'll be nice not to have to convert it myself. I am thinking of running a 4E game play by post, and its one of the story lines I was considering using.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:26 am  

    There was a group of players at my local game store who play in Living Forgotten Realms every Monday night. They went on about how the got to play through Trollhaunt Warrens twice two weeks in a row to gather up the rare drops at the end.

    I doubt the DM of that game is going to research the module, and this was sponsored RPGA.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:49 am  

    The two political parties we know as Republicans and Democrats have hated each other since the time of Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. That isn't going to change anytime soon.

    Neither is the love/hate between those for or against 4e, at least not until 5e arrives. Wink

    I would only suggest that if "someone" posts anything that "we" happen not to agree with . . . just let it go. Its not necessary to respond to everything that's said here. Don't let it "flame" up.

    We are not all going to agree on everything. Passions run too strong on "both sides of the aisle." That isn't going to change anytime soon either.
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 1:39 pm  

    So...no slapping, then?
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:19 pm  

    Sorry, Bubbagump, but you can only stab me with your infamous envenomed blade. You have to play nice with everyone else. Happy
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    Adept Greytalker

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    From: brazil

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 2:26 pm  

    the funny thing is the mention to acererak at the "revenge of the giants" adventure (not "against the giants", altoght they do called it wrongly that way).

    i suppouse they will link Rev of the giants to the Tomb of Horrors

    edit: mmm..i was reading about this acererak thing, and have no clue what is it about!


    "Without turning or even pausing in his work, the robed figure says, "I offer you one chance to avoid my wrath, you cowardly thieves. Throw yourselves from my tower and I shall allow fate to determine whether you live or die. Otherwise, prepare to truly understand why I am numbered among the greatest wizards of Bael Turath. I am Acererak of the Scarlet Robes, and this is my home!"
    http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20090803
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 4:36 pm  

    Apparently, Acererak is working at his table and hears, or senses, the approach of the players/adventures.

    But Acererak doesn't bother to turn around, thus showing his contempt for the adventurers and implying that they pose no real threat to him.

    Then as a further act of contempt Acererak speaks to them over his shoulder, without turning around to face them.

    Is that what you meant? Confused
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    Master Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:50 pm  

    It definitely appears they're simply borrowing names from older sources. (*sigh*) I'd had such high hopes.
    GreySage

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:07 pm  

    (* Bubbagump and the Scholar, crest fallen, down another dozen pints*)
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:14 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    It definitely appears they're simply borrowing names from older sources. (*sigh*) I'd had such high hopes.


    I doubt it for a couple of reasons. They've already put Acerarak into a 4e product. He's in the "Undead Hall of Infamy" in Open Grave, and is written up pretty much as is traditional, but for 4e. The Tomb of Horrors is mentioned by name and Return to the Tomb of Horrors is referenced also.

    My suspicion is that -

    Possible **SPOILER ALERT** unless I'm totally wrong
    The Acererak that is appearing in the quote that Rossik posted is Acererak before he became a demi-lich, so I'm assuming there may be some time travel involved or a clone or something of the sort. The one thing that really makes me think this is that he says "I am numbered among the greatest wizards of Bael Turath." Bael Turath in the core setting is extinct so if the setting were the present he should have said "I was..." not "I am..."
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 8:29 pm  

    MikelAmroni wrote:
    Tomb of Horrors for 4E? oh HECK yeah! Its only the most timeless and unique adventure of all time! And they'd have to work to erase all the greyhawk links. And if anyone does any research into it, we'll get a another round of folks looking into Greyhawk...YAY! It'll be interesting to see how they convert it. I know how I'd do it, but they may do some really cool stuff with it. Of course they may completely bomb it, but that is less likely. I'm glad against the giants is seeing print too. And it'll be nice not to have to convert it myself. I am thinking of running a 4E game play by post, and its one of the story lines I was considering using.


    I'll be interested to see what they do with it. It'll be much easier to survive some of the traps and make them more dramatic with 4e mechanics. I'm not sure I agree with you about erasing all the GH links since ToH didn't really have that many GH links other than the possible list of GH locations you could place it in. Despite that everyone does associate it with GH and hopefully as you say it will promote some interest in GH. I'm suspicious that when they say "Against the Giants" in the announcement that they mean "Revenge of the Giants", which doesn't really look to be so much a remake of AtG as a whole new thing. We'll have to wait and see.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Wed Sep 23, 2009 10:31 pm  

    Might as well re-do every one of Greyhawk top five adventures. There could be some interesting developmental material, and people should keep an open mind to that at the very least. I'd prefer something completely new, but that would be an unrealistic expectation considering that releasing material branded as "Greyhawk " is not high on the "to do" list. This is a long ways off though.

    As rossik said, the release of anything having to do with Greyhawk will help serve to bring the campaign setting into the spotlight and get people looking into it. That can only be a good thing.
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 10:36 am  

    smillan_31 wrote:
    bubbagump wrote:
    It definitely appears they're simply borrowing names from older sources. (*sigh*) I'd had such high hopes.


    I doubt it for a couple of reasons...


    Still not buying it. They can borrow names, settings, and even situations from older settings without there being any intent to link them with those settings. So having a wizard named Acererak with a trap-filled tomb who hails from Bael Turath is not necessarily the same thing as expanding on existing Greyhawk materials.

    And I'm fine with that. They can borrow whatever they like. Heck, I borrow ideas from other campaigns all the time. I'm just saying I see no reason to include the new version of Acererak as a part of canon.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 12:55 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:

    And I'm fine with that. They can borrow whatever they like. Heck, I borrow ideas from other campaigns all the time. I'm just saying I see no reason to include the new version of Acererak as a part of canon.


    but thats the problem:

    what if wizards create something very very bad, like "oh, acererak was a dragonborn polymorphed, and he is mordenkainen brother" and say that this is oficial?
    like a greyhawk cover and so...

    it would be canon, as its oficial...
    but it would not be liked.

    still, it would be canon, no?

    (sure, "not form me" one can say, but i think you got the point)
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 1:43 pm  

    Regrettably, Rossik, if WotC says that its canon, then its canon. Evil

    They legally own Greyhawk and there's nothing anyone here can do about that. Sadly, we are the true "core" of Greyhawk fans, but our opinion doesn't matter to them. Sad

    Its one of those very sad facts of life, my friend. Cry
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    Master Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 2:27 pm  

    This is exactly what I'm trying to communicate. They're NOT saying it's canon. In fact, they're not saying it (the new stuff only) is part of Greyhawk at all. All they're saying is "we got this from Greyhawk", which to me means the current stuff isn't part of Greyhawk but is only derived from Greyhawk materials. Therefore, it's not canon and even WotC isn't saying it should be.

    If, however, they someday release a book saying that Acererak is the half tiefling lovechild of Mordenkainen and Zagyg and that he likes to dress in drag while playing the pan pipes, and that their "new and improved" version is canon and should be accepted by any and all role-players everywhere, THEN it will be canon.

    But until they do so it's only a borrowed idea and has no bearing on Greyhawk whatsoever.

    And, of course, none of this has any bearing on the quality or enjoyability of the product. It might be the greatest thing ever written. The authors may even have written it as a sort of homage to the WoG. Who knows? But it's not a Greyhawk product and therefore only has value to me if it has some tidbit I can exploit for my own games. But given the course 4e has taken so far, I don't consider it worth the effort to search through the entire book just so I can find a few details that I can hold up and get happy about as I tell myself, "Aha! Look! They haven't totally forgotten Greyhawk!"

    That's all I'm trying to say, which in no way should be construed as an attack on 4e or those who like to play it. Nor should it be construed as an attempt to discourage others from using the materials mentioned in the OP.
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:11 pm  

    You mean that you don't want to know that the third sentence, in the fourth paragraph on page 563 has relevance to Greyhawk? Shocked

    Shame! Why you should . . err, . . . no, wait a minute. Confused

    You know, I don't really want to read that many pages to find a single sentence either. Razz

    Ahh, sorry Bubbagump! You were right . . . again! Wink Laughing
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:39 pm  

    bubbagump wrote:
    smillan_31 wrote:
    bubbagump wrote:
    It definitely appears they're simply borrowing names from older sources. (*sigh*) I'd had such high hopes.


    I doubt it for a couple of reasons...


    Still not buying it. They can borrow names, settings, and even situations from older settings without there being any intent to link them with those settings. So having a wizard named Acererak with a trap-filled tomb who hails from Bael Turath is not necessarily the same thing as expanding on existing Greyhawk materials.

    And I'm fine with that. They can borrow whatever they like. Heck, I borrow ideas from other campaigns all the time. I'm just saying I see no reason to include the new version of Acererak as a part of canon.


    I wasn't asking you to "buy" any additions to existing GH lore. I was just explaining why presenting Acererak as an updated version of exactly how he has appeared in pretty much every published source on him is a good bit more than just "simply borrowing names from older sources" as you characterized it. I don't think anyone, including the designers at WotC, are expecting you, me or any other hardcore GH fan to accept additions to his history that don't match GH canon. The best they're probably expecting is that we may adapt Revenge of the Giants and other parts of 4e to our own GH campaigns or works on GH, something that Rasgon has already done by referring to Bael Turath in his excellent Horned Society article.

    If anyone wants to disregard any material, no matter how well written, simply because of the edition version it's published under that's their business. I just think it's kind of sad.
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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:44 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    The two political parties we know as Republicans and Democrats have hated each other since the time of Alexander Hamilton and Thomas Jefferson. That isn't going to change anytime soon.


    Ummm... neither party existed at that point. Hamilton was a Federalist & Jefferson was a Republican (usually referred to nowadays as the Democratic-Republican Party). The modern Democratic Party split off from the Republicans in the 1820s, and the modern GOP was founded in the 1850s.
    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 3:49 pm  

    People will simply disagree, Smillan. You know that.

    Shakespeare is well written. But after a couple of his works I decided that I didn't really care for it. Wasn't my "cup of tea."

    Saying that "its well written" isn't going to change attitudes. Some here will always like 4e and some always will not. This argument will be everlasting . . . because its going to continue with 5e and 6e and . . .

    Well, you know! Wink
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    GreySage

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    Thu Sep 24, 2009 4:15 pm  

    Robbastard wrote:
    Ummm... neither party existed at that point. Hamilton was a Federalist & Jefferson was a Republican (usually referred to nowadays as the Democratic-Republican Party).


    A technicality only, Robbastard, though completely true. I wasn't trying for a history lesson. I was simply pointing out that politics has been divisive since its inception, and always will be. Sad

    So will this issue. Wink
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    Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:30 am  

    bubbagump wrote:
    If, however, they someday release a book saying that Acererak is the half tiefling lovechild of Mordenkainen and Zagyg and that he likes to dress in drag while playing the pan pipes, and that their "new and improved" version is canon and should be accepted by any and all role-players everywhere, THEN it will be canon.


    [Scribbling notes] This stuff is pure gold! Modenkainen - a woman! I haven't been so excited since they implied Zoltar was a woman just because he had long hair, and wore lipstick and high heels in Battle of the Planets (English-dubbed version of Gatchaman).

    Let me just say any of the new stuff can be used for inspiration. Then ask me if I think I am inspired by the notion that Nerull, a walking, rotting corpse, would be seduced and overthrown by some dead chick because, well, even the embodiment of death needs love...

    Wee Jas can already fill the niche of the Raven Queen so Nerull is alive (er, I mean undead) and killing in my campaign!
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 25, 2009 1:59 am  

    "Why oh why couldn't they have just sold the rights to Greyhawk to Paizo? "

    Bingo.

    The mere idea of having supplements set in Greyhawk done with the quality of Pathfinder material makes me cry in despair. I am not a big lover of the "mangaish" artwork, but the modules are all very high level stuff. AND Mona is in the staff (I know there have been some controversies on his works but I personally liked most of them very much, AND he's a big GH Fan after all).

    If there is a single company that could do it properly it is Paizo, no s*it about that.

    Just figure - a 600 pages behemoth like Malhavoc's Ptolus... on Greyhawk City!!!
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    Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:03 am  

    MToscan wrote:
    "Why oh why couldn't they have just sold the rights to Greyhawk to Paizo? "

    Bingo.

    If there is a single company that could do it properly it is Paizo, no s*it about that.


    I will add my chorus of approval to this. Not all the flavour of the recent GH stuff in Paizo's Dungeon met with my full approval but then I try to style my campaign a bit more like the Conan movies, with lower magic and a generally illiterate, scummy peasant population that spends its time shovelling muck. Even so, the gazeteers on Diamond Lake, Alhaster, Exag, Sasserine, and the Isle of Dread were all hugely useful tools. More articles like that would have been so coool, and the style of the Pathfinder modules suggests that we would have had this to one degree or another.

    It's so frustrating that WotC thought they were better off holding onto the franchise and doing nothing with it for at least 3-4 years - maybe to reduce Paizo competition with 4e or maybe just so they could slot the odd GH reference into their articles every 3-6 months. Oerth deserves better dammit! Evil
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Fri Sep 25, 2009 7:08 am  

    I suspect the reason why they wanted to retake control of Dungeon and Dragon was because they were rolling out a new edition of the game and they have an interest in making sure that the content of those publications matches closely what they're doing and doesn't overlap with the content that they're pushing out with their other published material. They probably also realized that D&DI couldn't sustain itself just through the non-magazine content. I sure wouldn't be a subscriber if not for the magazines.

    As far as selling GH to someone else, I don't doubt that has as much to do with no one else really wanting to put out GH content as WotC not wanting to give up their IP. Sweet Pelor! You'd have to be a fool to invest in a product line whose core audience is a bunch of dusty old grognards like us who sit around all day arguing about the equivalent of whether the frosted or unfrosted sides of mini wheats are better.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:35 am  

    I had a thought. If working for WotC is the only requirement for being able to establish GH canon, then one of us can join the janitorial staff and just start churning it out! Seriously, we could do whatever we wanted!

    Special note, however, you must be employed by WotC and not a staffing firm which works under WotC. Your paycheck must read that you work for WotC.

    Of course, I personally ignore everything canon past the 83' box...
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:35 pm  

    Here's your chance - http://hasbro.recruitmax.com/MAIN/careerportal/Job_Profile.cfm?szOrderID=3860&szReturnToSearch=1&szWordsToHighlight= Smile
    GreySage

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    Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:57 pm  

    Janitor? I can do janitor! Laughing
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    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:40 pm  

    I'll put you up for the interview. It's only about an hour drive north of me. Smile
    GreySage

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    Sun Sep 27, 2009 4:42 am  

    Been up your way manys the time, Smillan. Drove for Interstate Trucking, did the I-5 and I-84 things often. Almost signed on with Mays.

    And I appreciate your vote of confidence, thinking I could make a valuable contribution to Greyhawk . . . once I'm a janitor and an "official" employee of WotC.. Evil Grin Laughing Laughing
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    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Sun Sep 27, 2009 7:29 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    I am willing to bet Greyhawk will not even be mentioned in the module. I am glad I quit giving my money to Wizards.


    Me too,they seem to ruin everything they touch.I mean i never played as a gnome or anything,but i like to know that they are still a playable race,i miss useful thieves and pewter miniatures and black & white artwork.I hate dwarves with mohawks and shoulder spikes that reach to the cieling,and elves with nose/nipple rings..and a bald mordenkainen as mentioned by another member.
    I thank god for Ebay,for without it.i would'nt remain in this hobby much longer.Wizards lost my money a long time ago,and i find it very hard for them to get one more red cent from me.

    As for fans of wizards and 4th edition,i hope you all get a lot of joy and satisfaction from it,but i grew up in the age of 1st and second,and that's the way it's gonna stay.
    Master Greytalker

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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 1:05 am  

    Lol! Yeah and I like my halflings lounging around eating pies on the shores of the Nyr Dyv. Still, we do have the Hool Halflings who fit nicely into the 4e niche.

    The fluff remains regardless of any rule changes. I think it would be nice to have some more fluff on 'exotic' locations that have never been detailed and some 4e suggestions for stats on well-known npcs.

    I don't see that we need much else. There are enough plot threads in the old LG mods to keep me going until I die. I'm just tweaking them to fit into my home campaign.
    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 3:03 am  

    Quite a bit of antipathy. So, its burn the pregnant woman(WotC) because she's obviously carrying Satan's spawn in her belly. She is of course a witch, as she turned Bob there into a newt(even though he got better). Laughing

    I had a chance to quickly flip through Giants book/adventure today, but didn't see any casual references to Greyhawk off hand. I was very rushed, so there could be something in it, if only 4e Core references(gods and such). It would be nice if somebody were to review the 4e products, spelling out what potential they see for using them in Greyhawk.

    I'll lay out the parameters for an adventure review.

    *Give the title of the adventure and what levels it is for.

    *Give a brief summary of the introduction to the adventure and what plot hooks are used to entice the PCs into the adventure, but without giving away any important hidden information that players should not be privy to. No spoilers basically.

    *Describe the adventure's potential use in the Wolrld of Greyhawk.

    *Give your opinion on whether the adventure is good or not, and assign it a rating of 1-5 stars, 5 being the best.

    Whoever wants to do it will get...

    A FEESH!!!( a very nice a one!)
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    Last edited by Cebrion on Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Mon Sep 28, 2009 6:37 pm  

    MToscan wrote:
    Just figure - a 600 pages behemoth like Malhavoc's Ptolus... on Greyhawk City!!!


    That would be wonderful -- I couldn't wait until some of the hoary old grognards scream bloody murder because buried in Chapter Eleven on page 309 is something that was established in From the Ashes, but contradicted in the Original Folio, and obviously this all proves that Paizo too has Fallen From The True Faith and we must once again wail that Greyhawk is dead and fallen, and none but us truly love her.
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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 11:59 am  

    Cebrion wrote:
    Quite a bit of antipathy. So, its burn the pregnant woman(WotC) because she's obviously carrying Satan's spawn in her belly. She is of course a witch, as she turned Bob there into a newt(even though he got better). Laughing

    I had a chance to quickly flip through Giants book/adventure today, but didn't see any casual references to Greyhawk off hand. I was very rushed, so there could be something in it, if only 4e Core references(gods and such). It would be nice if somebody were to review the 4e products, spelling out what potential they see for using them in Greyhawk.

    I'll lay out the parameters for an adventure review.

    *Give the title of the adventure and what levels it is for.

    *Give a brief summary of the introduction to the adventure and what plot hooks are used to entice the PCs into the adventure, but without giving away any important hidden information that players should not be privy to. No spoilers basically.

    *Describe the adventure's potential use in the Wolrld of Greyhawk.

    *Give you opinion on whether the adventure is good or not, and assign it a rating of 1-5 stars, 5 being the best.

    Whoever wants to do it will get...

    A FEESH!!!( a very nice a one!)


    This is a great idea and one I am prepared to have a crack at.

    I have Revenge of the Giants (along with all other 4E products so far released) and since 3E have always viewed D&D material as being adaptable to GH unless it is specifically set in another world.

    My first thoughts on the adventure were to set Argent in the western Crystalmists overlooking the Sea of Dust. Substitute Nerath for Keoland during its expansionist phase and the abandoned city becomes a largely forgotten Keoish outpost established to watch over the ruined Suel Empire while serving as a haven for elite guardians of the kingdom. As Keoland declined, so did the city and as Iuz rose in the north (or the orcs and goblins rose in the Lortmils) the guardians left to fight these enemies and did not return.

    Have not got further with these ideas as I have only skimmed the book but happy to turn this into a review if it is wanted. I appreciate that 4E is hardly popular here but personally, I have embraced it for what it has done to the game rather than what it has done or will do to the traditional settings.

    I would like to see a 4E Greyhawk, for the same reason I have looked forward to almost every D&D and AD&D product for two and a half decades - if I can use it as a whole I will and if not, I will mine it for ideas and turn it, somehow, into Greyhawk material.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:09 pm  

    Flint wrote:
    I would like to see a 4E Greyhawk, for the same reason I have looked forward to almost every D&D and AD&D product for two and a half decades - if I can use it as a whole I will and if not, I will mine it for ideas and turn it, somehow, into Greyhawk material.

    That sounds like the real spirit of Greyhawk to me.
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    Black Hand of Oblivion

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    Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:28 pm  

    Flint wrote:
    This is a great idea and one I am prepared to have a crack at.


    Submit it as an Article when you are ready then, and I'll get it put in the Reviews section.
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    Adept Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:12 am  

    just to tell you guys about the acererak thing:

    my friend got the revenge of the giants adventure, and..

    SPOILERS!



    the adventures travel in time 600 years, and then they found the human acererak, before he turned to evil (but with traces of).

    then many things happen, and theres a part where they can choose tto fight acererak or not: if they do, they are the ones responsable of turning him into a lich.












    well...just to share with you guys.
    Grandmaster Greytalker

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    Wed Oct 14, 2009 8:52 pm  

    rossik wrote:
    just to tell you guys about the acererak thing:

    my friend got the revenge of the giants adventure, and..

    SPOILERS!



    the adventures travel in time 600 years, and then they found the human acererak, before he turned to evil (but with traces of).

    then many things happen, and theres a part where they can choose tto fight acererak or not: if they do, they are the ones responsable of turning him into a lich.






    well...just to share with you guys.


    GLOATING SPOILERS!

    WOOHOO! TIME TRAVEL! I CALLED IT! SUCK IT, PEOPLE!!!... *ahem* I mean uh, sure, time travel. Anyone could have predicted that.
    Adept Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 17, 2009 4:13 pm  

    I flipped through this adventure the other day. They have started recycling Dreamblade miniatures as monsters in 4E. Those lion things with dreadlocks are Dreamblade Miniatures.

    In another adventure, Kingdom of the Ghouls, they put stats on some of the dungeon tiles.

    Man, even looking at WotC products makes me feel like I'm walking through a swap meet with people screaming at me to buy their wares.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Sat Oct 17, 2009 6:49 pm  

    chaoticprime wrote:
    Man, even looking at WotC products makes me feel like I'm walking through a swap meet with people screaming at me to buy their wares.


    Flipping through the 4e DMG I noticed that miniatures and dungeon tiles are on there list of things "required for play" while character sheets were on the list of things only "recommended for play"

    I remember when all that was necessary was a book or two, dice, a character sheet and imagination... no miniatures, no battle maps, no 50lbs of supplemental books, no subscription online services (actually there wasn't an 'online' back then).
    Master Greytalker

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    Fri Oct 30, 2009 6:09 am  

    Drizzt's stats are out on DDI. Fairly simple to be honest. It doesn't look as though major npcs are likely to be as much fun to draft as earlier editions but they will certainly be a lot quicker!

    I think Vecna's 4e aspect is dull. I've never playtested him but for a god of magic he doesn't seem all that magical - and in fact he doesn't even seem to possess any powers related to those contained in the Hand and Eye. I would hope that magical npcs like Iggwilv and Mordenkainen would feel a bit more varied and interesting. I suppose that they have their vast array of rituals but in a fight they'd just want to blast away. I suppose you can give them different powers depending on their purpose for any particular encounter as well.

    I think I'm going to look back at 1e for inspiration. For example, gods had standard abilities and then a few individual ones. Picking out their themed powers, like Iuz's spittle or strangulation, might retain some flavour.
    GreySage

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    Fri Oct 30, 2009 5:17 pm  

    From what I keep reading in these various posts, it seems like 4e hasn't enhanced anything, but rather diminishes much of what we're familiar with.

    Or maybe I'm just missing something in all of this. Confused
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    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 31, 2009 6:30 am  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    From what I keep reading in these various posts, it seems like 4e hasn't enhanced anything, but rather diminishes much of what we're familiar with.

    Or maybe I'm just missing something in all of this.


    Well, you're not getting a balanced critique, of course. In the end, it's a matter of personal taste.
    GreySage

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    Sat Oct 31, 2009 1:42 pm  

    rasgon wrote:
    Well, you're not getting a balanced critique, of course.


    Opinions do run strong here. Wink

    Balance does have its place, but evidence does strongly suggest that WoG is ignored by the I.P. owners. So strong opinions from Greyhawk fans are to be expected. Cool

    WotC doesn't follow the course that I would prefer either, but then who am I? Just another opinion. Happy

    I think that, for myself, I'll concentrate on collecting all the source materials I can for the "older" editions myself. I'll leave 4e to others for now.

    But that's just my opinion again. Laughing
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    Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:42 am  

    It's sort of apples and oranges. 4e allows DMs to disassociate stats from storytelling so you no longer need 20th level Expert sages just so they have better dice rolls than players. Combat is much more fun for non-spellcasters and rituals allow a cap to be placed on wizards and CoDzilla while also allow groups of non-spellcasters to access important magical abilities. I think as long as you can divorce character class from character concept, the rules are very versatile and character generation is fun.

    However, while is is much faster to generate non-standard monsters and npcs, mixing and matching attack groups is becoming increasingly harder due to sheer volume of choices. While I like the method of limiting item usage, I hate the flavourless cookie-cutter magical items, particularly cheesy ones to increase damage. Skills feel a bit inelegant but I agree that they shouldn't be of major importance to the game.

    Biggest fault is that as a DM I feel even more pressured to push for combat, as if everything else is just filler between fights. Players feel this pressure too and seem reluctant to pick feats that give anything other than bonuses in combat, and even more than that, reluctant to pick situational bonuses when they can just have nice meaty flat bonuses, possibly influenced by the desire not to lag behind the one player who is choosing his feats to optimise his attack and damage.

    Overall I'm liking 4e. My 2e dual classed rogue (scout) shadow mage was never effective under 3e and I'm having great fun. Our Greyhawk campaign has carried on regardless of shift (it will be 20 years old next year) albeit we dropped the pcs back to level 11 to equalise all the classes. I'm dreading 5e though...
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 am  

    I appreciate your opinion on this, PaulN6, especially as I haven't played 4e. From your post, however, I gather that "story" is missing . . . what you call the "filler."

    How can there be real "role playing" without story? Confused

    It seems that 4e is designed to discourage story telling and role playing, while not actually forbidding it. This may not have been so much intentional as it is a result, but the effect is the same.

    All information concerning 4e on Wizard's site is obviously biased in favor of it, while much that is written here is negative. I shall continue to look for the balance. Wink
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    Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:20 am  

    Yes, I don't think the intention is for the story to be absent and in fairness, there are many players who enjoy the fighting more than the roleplaying and vice versa. For my part, I just never bothered to read any of the sections of the book on roleplaying - seemed a bit pointless.

    Skill challenges allow sort of social combat, where players roll against skills that they choose themselves against a difficulty as long as they can explain a way that the skill helps in the challenge. They can be quite enjoyable, with each test requiring a certain number of successes before 3 failurees to achieve the desired goal but I think replacing a skill roll with the art of roleplaying conversation or interrogation is a mistake that few will make. Most players have sussed that if your DM wants you to have the information it will come your way somehow, so why worry? It really is a balancing exercise but I worry that newer players will just end up rolling dice and not roleplaying.

    For our part, the role playing hasn't changed much at all (our characters are 5-20 years old). What was most refreshing was the way the players slipped from their glory-hogging and show-boating to the more cooperative style of fighting encouraged by the new character roles. The tactical nature of the new combat system is a real pleasure for the players.

    I do miss the mythical roots of the monsters, which have given way for combat-only stat blocks but there is enough 'fluff' in the old books to keep the background should any of the players choose to research it. Plus you just ignore the 4e non-world-specific guff about halflings living on barges and stick with the Tolkienesque halflings of Elmshire etc.
    GreySage

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    Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:14 am  

    PaulN6 wrote:
    Yes, I don't think the intention is for the story to be absent and in fairness, there are many players who enjoy the fighting more than the roleplaying . . .


    Agreed. Between you and I, I find that disappointing. I mean, why not just sit in front of a console and play one of the combat games out there? Its the interaction between the players that really makes for a good GH game. Of course, that's just my opinion. Evil Grin

    PaulN6 wrote:
    I think replacing a skill roll with the art of roleplaying conversation or interrogation is a mistake that few will make. Most players have sussed that if your DM wants you to have the information it will come your way somehow . . . I worry that newer players will just end up rolling dice and not roleplaying.


    I prefer the role playing also. To me, its the entire purpose of this type of game. But the younger generation is growing up with a different outlook. To me its a sign that they can't think for themselves, they need the dice to do it for them. Sad

    PaulN6 wrote:
    What was most refreshing was the way the players slipped from their glory-hogging and show-boating to the more cooperative style of fighting encouraged by the new character roles.


    That's a plus. Teamwork is the way to get things done and it involves the interaction I was speaking of. So that's a good thing. Cool

    PaulN6 wrote:
    I do miss the mythical roots of the monsters, which have given way for combat-only stat blocks . . . Plus you just ignore the 4e non-world-specific guff about halflings living on barges and stick with the Tolkienesque halflings of Elmshire etc.


    That's part of the "story-telling" again and one of the best parts of the game, in my opinion. One of the best reasons for playing in the first place. Sounds like you've got it all worked out in your game and that's the only thing that matters. Happy

    Happy gaming my friend. Wink
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    Wed Nov 11, 2009 5:37 pm  

    Probably in the minority here, but I'm glad they're pulling ol' Acereak out of retirement for 4E. I've played a little of both 4th edition and PF and I'm sticking with PF, but I'd definatley be interested in a ToH remake. From what I've seen, both Paizo and WotC are pumping out a lot of quality product - which only drives up industry standards and makes it better for the consumer. Paizo is definately more story focused and heavier on detail, which is good but can often shackle the DMs creativity. A lot of their stuff is more fun to read than it is to play because a great deal of the story details don't filter to the players, which leaves the DM more excited about that adventure than the players.

    Yes, 4E's approach is much more simplistic and lacks a true role-playing spirit. But there is something to be said for simplicity. In a nutshell, a typical 4E adventure gives you all the basic necessities to run an adventure (short BG, lairs and monster stats, treasure, maps) and the DM fills in the blanks. If memory serves me this isn't that different from a lot of the classic 1st edition material. Gygax often intentionally kept things very vague and usually left a lot for the DM to create, so each DM would customize his or her own campaign rather than have one crammed down the throat. I'm as loyal a GH fan as anyone but it seems a lot of posters here forget that the heart and soul of GH (and the game of D&D, for that matter) is to fill in the blanks.

    As for cannibalizing source material, well...that's a practice that isn't exclusive to 4th edition or WotC. Indeed, did not Paizo relocate the Isle of Dread from the Mystara setting and plunk it into GH for their Savage Tide AP? How about when Vecna bounced over to Ravenloft in 2nd edition? Personally, I've lost count over the years how many FR or Dark Sun adventures I've bastardized to fit into my GH campaigns, and I'll bet I'm not alone. So what does it matter if the Tomb of Horrors shows up in 4E? WotC is doing what many gamers and designers have been doing for years: mining old material for new ideas. Lets not forget some of the recent "Return to" rehashes over the last few years (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk) which were less than stellar but did not receive a lot of public outcry. I realize these dungeons weren't yanked from the GH setting, but they still took beloved GH locations and NPCs and (judging from the majority of responses on these boards) duffed. So we all moved on, taking what pieces we liked, ignoring the rest and filling in the blanks.

    As a GH fan, it would be great to see some GH material for 4E (but that is really for another thread). Since that wont happen anytime soon, I'll take a Tomb of Horrors or Against the Giants and do what most of us have always done...

    ...I'll fill in the blanks. Wink
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