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    Canonfire :: View topic - coinage of the Horned Society
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    coinage of the Horned Society
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:40 pm  
    coinage of the Horned Society

    What was it?

    (working on my BK project and for the life of me I can't find out what the coinage of the HS was. If someone could point me towards the proper reference, I'd appreciate it)

    TIA,

    Casey
    GreySage

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    Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:01 am  

    The Living Greyhawk Gazetteer didn't have it, since the Horned Society wasn't a country then, but Dragon #167 included a generic "diabolic currency" that might work for the Horned Society.

    Hoof (copper piece), Tail (bronze piece), Talon (silver piece), Fang (electrum piece), Horn (gold piece).


    Last edited by rasgon on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:30 am  

    Having mysterious and/or unnamed Heirarchs, I would imagine you wouldn’t see too many portraits on the coins, and I believe (but could be mistaken) there is enough debate as to whom exactly they served that deities and/or archdevils on the currency becomes problematic. Horns, hooves, fangs, etc. seems a pretty simple solution to the matter.

    In play, we always kept the coinage very generic. I have however wondered for some time what an adventurer would do with said horns, fangs, etc. collected from an adventure. Or say a stack of gold coins with a grinning Iuz on the obverse. Sure, there are places where all gold would spend the same. I imagine though that could create some awkward situations when a player goes to pay for something in a “good” land. Weird implications, though – characters keeping several sets of coins for different purposes.

    Sorry for the tangent. Back to the show!
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:13 pm  

    Rasgon to the rescue! Thanks!

    Jeminnab, adventures can always melt those coins and sell the metal ;)

    Casey
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    Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:20 am  

    Personally I don't like the idea of having coinage named after diabolical details. It would make the diabolism aspect of the land a bit too "cheap". I am not an economist but I believe that a state has to undergo some sort of iter of being accepted by neighboring states as a real entity etc. I would guess that the Society had no central mint, but rather collected various coins from the Flanaess, like the bandit kingdoms. Or maybe yet they could have some sort of hellfire furnace that produce evil coins :)
    In the end I would rule that the coinage is that of whatever empire ruled in the land before the hierarchs rule.
    I would check Cheliax, empire of devils, from Pathfinder as well.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:23 am  

    Thinking about it, instead of a real mint, they could get the best part of the coinage from bargaining with devils, so the money found in the Society could come from contracts made all over the multiverse (but of course stained with "blood" after passing in some devil prince covvers...).
    And of course, a LOT of promissory notes...
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Thu Feb 25, 2010 8:25 am  

    The problem with the theory of the HS using coins from whoever was there before them is that, well, besides, Iuz, no one really was. The HS lands used to be part of the Bandit Kingdoms, i.e., wild, lawless, and probably did not have a mint.

    I like the diabolic coins idea for the HS because back then, it's not like they were trying to hide who they were, what they did, etc. They had no concerns about being a good neighbor or making a nice impression on the Shield Lands (as they sacked it). As a fairly well organized state, I believe they certainly would have minted their own coins with which to pay their soldiers. An economic benefit of this would be the expectation that their soldiers would spend their money in Molag as most other nation's would not accept the currency at face value. Thus, having their own mint has economic value as it encourages local spending.
    GreySage

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    Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:25 am  

    The fact that they call themselves the Horned Society tells me that they're not ashamed of their fiendish bent, but declare it openly. They have demodand mercenaries working for them; I don't think there'd be any point in trying to disguise themselves as a "normal" nation by using Aerdi coins. Their power comes from fear, and they revel in it; they set themselves as the successors of Iuz during his imprisonment. Everything they do is with the intent of making it clear to everyone what kind of forces they're aligned with.
    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:20 am  

    I am mostly with you on that. I was just expressing my feeling to naming coins after "hooves" and "horns". It has no a rationale basis, it's more a matter of aesthetics, I am not sure how to explain as English is not my home language and sometimes I feel a bit strangled by my lack of vocabulary.
    It "feels" a bit odd in my imagination. I figure it like having the hierarchs wearing huge belt buckles with a big "H" (or big "D"s of Devil) like wrestling champions. Sounds like some sort of dark humor naming the coins that way.
    Apprentice Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 12, 2010 3:39 am  

    There is canon source for HS coinage. In Saga of Old City, when Gord travels to the Bandit Kingdoms and meets Gellor, and starts the con to dupe the HS agents who are recruiting mercenaries in Stoink, it is the coinage that these agents have secreted in a hidden place that alerts the characters to the fact that it is the HS recruiting: the coins are gold, depicting the symbol of the dread hierarchs on one side. I think I remember it being a blank face surrounded by huge horns. So the HS does have a mint, but it seems it is mostly used to coin gold for important payments. The fact that they coin it with their symbol also means that they take some pride in it, since it is also obvious (by the heroes reaction) that the coins are seen with some suspicion and alarm.

    I would say that the coins would generally be accepted (they are gold, after all...), but they would raise suspicion and would probably carry a heavy comission at the moneychanger.
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    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 12, 2010 4:48 pm  

    JoseFreitas wrote:
    In Saga of Old City, when Gord travels to the Bandit Kingdoms and meets Gellor, and starts the con to dupe the HS agents . . . it is the coinage . . . that alerts the characters to the fact that it is the HS recruiting: the coins are gold, depicting the symbol of the dread hierarchs on one side.


    Nice find, Jose. Wink

    "Taw," the recruiting agent, mentions "luckies" and "commons" when counting the money on page 157. "Copper," "silver" and "electrum" are mentioned on page 159, as are "luckies" and "silver nobles."

    Its on page 160 that Gord and Gellor find "orbs that were bright yellow gold . . . each bore the horned and crowned death's head of the Heirarchs on its face with a coiled serpent on the obverse."

    Good memory Jose, nice work! Cool
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    Journeyman Greytalker

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    Fri Mar 12, 2010 6:48 pm  

    Nice find!
    GreySage

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    Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:33 pm  

    Mystic-Scholar wrote:
    "Taw," the recruiting agent, mentions "luckies" and "commons" when counting the money on page 157. "Copper," "silver" and "electrum" are mentioned on page 159, as are "luckies" and "silver nobles."

    Its on page 160 that Gord and Gellor find "orbs that were bright yellow gold . . . each bore the horned and crowned death's head of the Heirarchs on its face with a coiled serpent on the obverse."


    Note that luckies, commons, nobles, and orbs are all Greyhawk City coinage. Either: (1) Gygax was implying that the Horned Society uses the same names for their coins as Greyhawk does, (2) Taw was mostly paying them in Greyhawk coinage, or (3) Taw (and, later, Gord) was using names that'd be familiar to a Greyhawk native, though those weren't the official names of the coins.
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    Fri Mar 12, 2010 9:25 pm  

    As a society that function in multiple markets what coin and its state might be part of the bargaining.

    Paying somebody in actual HS minted coins would imply that a) they could freely trade them b) They should learn to freely trade them or c) you don't really care if they can use them or not.

    I imagine the HS society mints coins just to be able to use bullion easily (plus or minus anything they get from extra planer dealings). If their coins are good they could have a huge affect on local economies where they payed in cash.

    I could also imagine a curious sickness you get from melting or reminting HS coins......
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:06 am  

    Excellent points Rasgon! Happy

    You're right on top of it, as always my friend. Wink

    I should have also noted that the distinctive Horned Society coinage was found in the false bottom of the treasure chest. They were not mixed in with the "regular" coins.

    They were found with "a soft leather bag and a tube of bone." Within the "tube of bone" was found a "parchment . . . a set of instructions written clearly in Common." It proved to be the Heirarchs plans of attack. Shocked

    I think the fact that the HS distinctive coins were hidden away tells us something of the significance of a person being found with them. After all, it was the discovery of the coins and parchment that alerted Gord and Gellor to the fact that these men were HS agents. Obviously, such a person would be clearly marked as an agent of the HS. At least, that's what I gather was Gygax's intention. I could be wrong.


    It makes one wonder whether or not such coinage would be used in any significant fashion, or commonly found in open circulation. That the Heirarchs paid their agents with such money is obvious, the mystery is in how those agents were able to spend it and where they might do so openly. Confused
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    Sat Mar 13, 2010 7:30 am  

    Reading that passage like a DM, it's also possible that the gold orbs were in the false bottom of the chest because, well, they were gold.

    DM: The chest contains copper, silver, and electrum coins.
    PC: I search for secret compartments.
    DM: You find a false bottom holding a number of gold coins, with a soft leather bag and a tube of bone.
    GreySage

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    Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:26 pm  

    DMPrata wrote:
    Reading that passage like a DM, it's also possible that the gold orbs were in the false bottom of the chest because, well, they were gold.


    Hmmm. That's a possibility, certainly. But it should be noted that the orbs were also the only coins said to be specifically marked with the emblems of the Hierarchs. It was only the discovery of these particular coins -- albeit golden orbs -- that alerted the two companions to the Hierarchs involvement in the scheme.

    Your point, while valid, still leads me to ask; In such a case, why weren't the other coins so obviously marked with the trappings of the Hierarchs? Confused

    After all, the treasure chest itself was hidden under a concealed door in the floor of the small hut used by Flatchet, Taw and Swutch.

    "Swutch . . . Taw . . . moved a heavy table, grabbed a plank and heaved. A trap door, cleverly hidden, opened to reveal a cellar below." (page157)

    Not that your own observation isn't correct, I just "see" it differently. Cool
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    Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:46 pm  

    Just a couple of possibilities off the top of my head:

    I suspect the most likely explanation for the hidden coins was that Gygax was thinking like a DM and didn't even consider the ramifications of what he was doing - he hid the Horned Society coins because the "players" should only be rewarded if they think about checking for false bottoms. This, to me, seems typical of Gygax.

    Another possibility arises from a Cold War era novel. I forget the novel's title, but in it a Russian agent was given a sum of Russian currency because his handlers knew he would be "home" for a while and would need to buy various things, and other currency wouldn't be accepted. Perhaps the Horned Society folk in question are going home soon?

    The third possibility arises from a similar (and similarly forgotten) source. An agent was given a particular form of currency as a means of identifying himself to certain other agents.


    Last edited by bubbagump on Mon Mar 15, 2010 9:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Sun Mar 14, 2010 4:59 pm  

    Got all excited about this thread until I realized that it was coinage and not "carnage" Mad


    Maraudar
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    Tue Mar 16, 2010 3:10 am  

    Actually, I think that the explanation is simpler. One character or two spending a few HS gold coins is normal. Those coins circulate, they are gold, they get spent. A full chest of them, though, clearly marks the person as an agent of the HS. The money was meant to hire mercenaries. It would be passed on to various officers, presumably sworn to secrecy, presumably charged with paying the soldiers. There might have been a sudden influx of HS coins, and it might have awakened suspicions, but it would have been different from a full chest turning up at once.
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    Tue Mar 16, 2010 4:39 am  

    JoseFreitas wrote:
    Actually, I think that the explanation is simpler. One character or two spending a few HS gold coins is normal. Those coins circulate, they are gold, they get spent. A full chest of them, though, clearly marks the person as an agent of the HS. The money was meant to hire mercenaries. It would be passed on to various officers, presumably sworn to secrecy, presumably charged with paying the soldiers. There might have been a sudden influx of HS coins, and it might have awakened suspicions, but it would have been different from a full chest turning up at once.


    So, adventurers who sack some old HS stronghold, put all of the evil buggers inside to the sword, and then make off with chests full of HS stamped coinage are obviously in league with evil? The FIENDS!!! Laughing Wink

    Of course, if such a thing happened, it will likely be noticed, and agents of either Iuz or of the HS will likely hear about who has been spending all of this uniquely stamped coin(if they spend a lot of it in bulk). Many nations would probably not even take the coin as is, as it will likely be seen a wealth built off the the suffering of innocents. Better to melt it down into bullion and eliminate the negative connotation of the HS stamping.

    Heck, as recent as my trip in 2001 to the UK, some English were still somewhat snobby about accepting Scottish money(can I get witness! Happy). Not quite the same as how Shield Landers would feel about accepting HS coinage, so a pretty lame attitude. So much for the "United" Kingdom. Razz
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    Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:53 am  

    Cebrion wrote:

    So, adventurers who sack some old HS stronghold, put all of the evil buggers inside to the sword, and then make off with chests full of HS stamped coinage are obviously in league with evil? The FIENDS!!! Laughing Wink


    Yep! That's actually something the PCs should think of if they had that gold. I use a fairly different system of cojnage from the AD&D one. Basically, coins are about 200 to a lb. There are 240 sp per £, etc... the more realistic historical system. Now, I list prices in generic "sp", which assume a weight of about 1,8 grs. Then I have different coinages from different countries, and I make the equivalence. So for instance, the PCs might have a bunch of Greyhawk nobles, and some Furiondy Pennies. But if they pay for something in those weird large silver pieces they sacked from the old dwarven tomb, the Thieve's Guild might suddenly be alerted to the fact that someone has a treasure! Or if they're using those really good quality Perrenlander gold coins, in a large pouch, some might wonder what mission they undertook for the Voorman recently...
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