Signup
Welcome to... Canonfire! World of GreyhawK
Features
Postcards from the Flanaess
Adventures
in Greyhawk
Cities of
Oerth
Deadly
Denizens
Jason Zavoda Presents
The Gord Novels
Greyhawk Wiki
#greytalk
JOIN THE CHAT
ON DISCORD
    Canonfire :: View topic - the Return of Elemental Evil
    Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion
    the Return of Elemental Evil
    Author Message
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 16, 2010
    Posts: 6


    Send private message
    Mon Jun 07, 2010 2:57 pm  
    the Return of Elemental Evil

    I am planning a campaign that will involve the Cult of Elemental Evil. I want to run at least two groups, one of which will start in Homlett, another of which will start out in the Keep on the Borderlands (the Hidden Temple at the Caves of Chaos will be devoted to the Elder Elemental Eye) . I'm not sure where to place the Keep on the Borderlands, but I'm thinking of having it be an outpost of the Free City of Greyhawk, in the Cairn Hills. Of course the Temple of Elemental Evil will be part of the campaign as well, but I'm not sure how close it will be to the published temple.

    I would more information on the Elder Elemental Eye, the Cult of Elemental Evil, etc. Especially regarding the relationship between the Eye and Tharizdun. I'm aware that it is now considered canon that they are one and the same, but I have heard dissent about that fact, I'm not sure where however. I'm not sure I want them to be the same myself.

    I am also considering the role of Lloth in the campaign. Lareth the Beautiful is said to be a cleric of Lloth in the Village of Homlett. Yet Zuggtmoy, not Lloth, is associated with the Temple of Elemental Evil. I will be using the Giants/Drow series for certain, but the drow of House Elservs do not worship Lloth but rather the Elder Elemental Eye (in my version of Greyhawk, the dominance of Lloth over the drow is much reduced anyway. She is the Patron Deity of the Drow as a whole, but many worship other deities, including various demon lords). So what role will Lloth play in my campaign? What is her relation will the Temple of Elemental Evil? I'm thinking she may be an enemy of the Elemental Eye, but may or may not be an ally to the PCs.
    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 25, 2007
    Posts: 951
    From: Neck Deep in the Viscounty of Verbobonc

    Send private message
    Mon Jun 07, 2010 10:17 pm  

    You can find some information regarding Big T and the EEG here: http://www.canonfire.com/cf/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3574&highlight=tharizdun
    I'm particularly fond of the last entry in that thread. Concerning the canonicity of Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental God being one and the same, I'd say that's extremely debatable - check out the article in Oerth Journal #12.

    The Living Greyhawk campaign did a few things with the cult of Elemental Evil, carrying on the idea that there are 4 distinct factions. In the LG series, Lareth played a pretty big part. I highly recommend looking up those mods if you have access to them.

    Lolth's role is a bit more problematic. ToEE does clearly state that Lareth was a cleric of Lolth, and RttToEE reinterprets this statement by saying he was "really" a cleric of Tharizdun and only pretending to serve Lolth. This seems extremely implausible to me. IMC, I ruled that Lareth was truly a Lolthite cleric but was subverted sometime after his resurrection.

    It seems much more likely that Lolth was simply trying to glom onto a possible source of power by becoming involved with the cult of Elemental Evil, perhaps with an eye toward eventually betraying them. It is known that she has always had a great hatred for Zuggtmoy, though the two often carried on cordially in public, perhaps as a means of feeling each other out in order to identify exploitable weaknesses. Clearly Lolth wouldn't have made a move against Zuggtmoy directly, since the fungi queen was Iuz's consort and had his support, but given her devious nature I wouldn't put it past her to weasel her way into the cult as a means of stealing its power for herself.

    So basically, I see Tharizdun as "using" the Elder Elemental God as a front, intimidating that deity into submission through his greater power. In the same way that he insinuates himself into the minds of all those who open themselves to him, he subverted Zuggtmoy (perhaps without her knowledge). Iuz tagged along for Zuggtmoy's sake, hoping to use the ToEE as cover for his own actions in the north. Meanwhile, Lolth sees Zuggy and Old Wicked making a power play and insinuates herself so as not to miss out on a possible opportunity. She is of course aware of the EEG since House Eilservs favors him, but she is wholly unaware of Tharizdun's involvement (though I'm sure she figures it out by the time of RttToEE).
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 28, 2004
    Posts: 348


    Send private message
    Tue Jun 08, 2010 7:54 am  

    Scotty G had a forum up that had a very elaborated attempt to a ToEE MEGA-campaign.

    I don't have the link, nor do I know if it's up any more, but this would definitely the best place to start, IMO.
    _________________
    "A Minstrel's Memory": PBPs & Other Games, since 2005.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 06, 2003
    Posts: 85
    From: Torrance, Calif.

    Send private message
    Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:23 am  

    I am currently running ToEE and these are my thoughts:

    You have quite an ambitious campaign you're setting up.

    I'm running the ToEE pretty close to 1E, although I'm allowing 2E character classes, and a few rules from 2E. I have upgraded all the leaders of the Temple to 2E as well as the dragons down below and any demons the party might come across, I have kept everything else as per the module. I am also using the 1E experience point system, as I believe is superior to the 2E exp system.

    The Temple is no walk in the park. I attempt to be as impartial with my players as much as I can and to be as fair and regular in enforcing the rules as possible. That said, I had 5 character deaths in 1 game session. 3 characters died within 30 minutes of each other. I don't say that to boast, rather, to let you know what kind of module your players will be getting into.

    I ran my players through a pre-adventure in the Viscounty of Verbobonc that led them to Hommlet and eventually the Temple. In the module Gygax spoke of when he first ran the adventure, saying that he had a small adventure set up for them that seemed totally unrelated to the Temple at first. Indeed, the players only heard of the symptoms of the overall problem: increased banditry, lawlessness, people disappearing in the night, talk of werewolf attacks, etc. and the people alluding to a return to the 'bad old times, the time of Temple'. That sort of thing.

    I do like the idea of having a cult of Elemental Evil somewhere around the Principality of Greyhawk as the module speaks of a lone cleric from the Nyr Dyv who came to Verbobonc to found the Temple. It only goes to reason that there would be some remnant of his cult in hiding in that area. An idea I never thought of, and something to plan for my players after they're done!

    Lolth is a kind of a wild card and to be honest, I wasn't real sure why Gygax threw her in the module. It never seemed as something that is part of an overall plot, although the module itself doesn't really have a story, being very much a locale to adventure in, and the Temple itself being a powerful plot device to create many adventure opportunities. I digress. There is a small, but substantial Lolthite presence in the Temple. And I recall the module saying that Lolth wanted to stake a claim in the Temple and attempt to take it over. Her faction also acts as a buffer against Zuggtmoy taking back her full powers by gaining the Orb of Golden Death. What would make Lolth's day would be the completion of the Orb of Golden Death and it's possession. In the 1E Monster Manual it talks about demons having talismans and how important it is to them. The Orb of Golden Death is an artifact because it is the talisman of a demon lord. If Lolth gets her hands on it she could make Zuggtmoy her b@#!h. That would dramatically alter the whole power balance in the western Flanaess.

    Really, I don't care for RttToEE and firmly reject what they put in there regarding Tharizdun. It overturns the whole metaphysical relationship between a deity and their worshipers, its too problematic. To me, a deity cannot have their worshiper's devotions hijacked by some other deity. Even if a deity is masquerading around as some other power, this influx of belief in the deity's alter ego's portfolio would have that deity alter the very core of what they are and what they stand for. Tharizdun masquerading around as an elemental power would have his nature altered by the incoming belief. Tharizdun is the god of entropy, decay, madness, and eternal darkness, this portfolio is counter to that. Elemental powers are very much about substance and form and Tharizdun is the epitome of the dissolution of this. This may sound a bit cynical, but I believe the RttToEE was written as a marketing ploy more than anything else. Especially since the destruction of the Temple at the end of the module is so utter and complete a sequel is likewise incredulous to me.

    I know Gygax said in an interview that he had originally put in a chapter in the original Temple manuscript regarding the cult of the Elder Elemental Eye and even a whole area of the dungeon devoted to his imprisonment in the dungeon. This makes sense. Zuggtmoy is a demon lord and cannot grant spells. So, the true power granting the magical capabilities to the Temple's clerics would be the Elder Elemental Eye. Its too bad he took that out. In my campaign I attribute Iuz as the source of the clergy's spell power. It may work to include something how worship of the Elder Elemental Eye was perverted by Iuz and Zuggtmoy. The Elder Elemental Eye doesn't have to be evil and is more than likely a Neutral power. Heck, there may be a variant of the druid class devoted just to him running around, or even just a plain druidical order of his willing to help the party. To make this whole scheme work, Iuz and Zuggtmoy would have had to have the Elder Elemental Eye subdued in some way, probably even imprisoned somewhere near the Nyr Dyv.

    Here's a wild idea: have the Hidden Temple in an underwater cave in the Nyr Dyv. This could be where Iuz hid the Elder Elemental Eye, if you care to take that idea. It would probably be filled with air and complete with a portal to Dorakaa! I'm sure Iuz would think this place nigh impossible to find and have set a light guard or something appropriate to your PC's level.

    The Grey Mouser
    'I drank what?' - Socrates
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

    Send private message
    Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:43 am  

    Demon lords can grant spells in 1st edition. Lolth is a demon lord, after all, and she has clerics. All demon lords are considered lesser deities for this purpose.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Mar 16, 2010
    Posts: 6


    Send private message
    Wed Jun 23, 2010 3:22 pm  

    I'm thinking of how the Cult of Elemental Evil's plans will progress. I want the campaign to be more than dungeon delving, I'd like some intrigue and maybe even warfare. What is they're plan? What are they going to do, besides sit in the dungeon and wait for the PCs to come and kill them? I don't have access to the T1-4 Module at the moment, but when I do I'll certainly check to see if it has anything to say about that. Also, though it's dependent on exactly what happens in the campaign, I'd like to get some idea of what the "endgame" will be. Perhaps the PCs will attempt to challenge Zuggtmoy herself, but maybe there might be some other option.

    Also I'd like to have a stable of recurring rival adventurers that appear in the campaign, like when I roll "NPC party" on a random encounter table.. I'd like to use the 3rd Edition iconics, but I'd like to ground them more in the Greyhawk setting, like where would Mialee, Jozan, Tordek, Lidda, et al. come from? Preferably, but not necessarily, from the general vicinity the campaign takes place in, around Greyhawk and Verbobonc
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
    Posts: 460


    Send private message
    Tue Jun 29, 2010 8:10 pm  
    Re: the Return of Elemental Evil

    LordZack wrote:
    I would more information on the Elder Elemental Eye, the Cult of Elemental Evil, etc. Especially regarding the relationship between the Eye and Tharizdun. I'm aware that it is now considered canon that they are one and the same, but I have heard dissent about that fact, I'm not sure where however. I'm not sure I want them to be the same myself.



    ToEE: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Temple_of_Elemental_Evil

    Tharizdun: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tharizdun

    Elder Elemental Eye: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Elder_Elemental_Eye

    Zuggtmoy: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Zuggtmoy

    Lolth: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Lolth

    RttKotB: http://www.canonfire.com/wiki/index.php?title=Return_to_the_Keep_on_the_Borderlands
    Display posts from previous:   
       Canonfire Forum Index -> World of Greyhawk Discussion All times are GMT - 8 Hours
    Page 1 of 1

    Jump to:  

    You cannot post new topics in this forum
    You cannot reply to topics in this forum
    You cannot edit your posts in this forum
    You cannot delete your posts in this forum
    You cannot vote in polls in this forum




    Canonfire! is a production of the Thursday Group in assocation with GREYtalk and Canonfire! Enterprises

    Contact the Webmaster.  Long Live Spidasa!


    Greyhawk Gothic Font by Darlene Pekul is used under the Creative Commons License.

    PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.
    Page Generation: 0.35 Seconds