I have a question that I'd love to get some views on.
I'm using Chaosium's Basic Role Playing system for GH and the magic system has no language specifically for scribing spells in grimoires; in other words there is no Read Magic required to understand a spellbook or grimoire that a character may discover, all that is required is a successful Literacy (Appropriate Language) roll.
So, which language do you good folks think magicians would use for inscribing spells and why? Would they use Common, knowing that any Magician would probably find it easy to understand? Or, would they go for Old Oeridian or Ancient Baklunish in an effort to make the understanding more difficult? Or, something more obscure?
In BRP the Literacy skill is a % score so you can't just "know" the language; to understand a grimoire you'll have to make a roll. Also, IMC magic is scarce and therefore a grimoire potentially very valuable; no guild would dream of selling or giving a spell to a non-member and membership doesn't come easy.
This topic might have been better placed in the "other game systems" category but I figured it might not get noticed so I've been a little cheeky putting it here. (Looks around for Ceb's axe )
The main reason for my asking the question now is I intend to give one of my players a copy of Tenser's Theory Of Invisible Forces from GVD's excellent articles on grimoires and the question just occured to me.
I have absolutely zero experience with Chaosium's Basic Role Playing system; but a thought immediately hits me:
Why not have a "magic" language which Mages would learn as part of thier studies? It could be a spoken language or a combination of symbols and formulaes or whatever else you might see fit to make it.
Perhaps non Mages could learn to "read" the language; but lack the ability to actually "tap" into the magical power to actually cast spells; i.e. they might be able to tell that a Spellbook has the "Lightning Bolt" spell in it; but they would never be able to actually cast it.
Another way to go is to run with something that you mentioned yourself...have different Mages write down spells in thier books in different languages...maybe the lazy ones write it down in Common; maybe those who are Bakluni write it down in Baklunish...maybe those that understand Old Oeridian (though never really speak it) choose to write the spells down in that language as a way to prevent someone who steals thier spellbooks from being able to easily read them...
I want to avoid having a universal language of magic because it will mean all magic users will train up that one literacy skill rather than having to consider many different ones which adds a lot of flavour. For example; one magician in the campaign has Literacy (Common) 60% and Literacy (Ancient Suloise) 17% which means that he's unlikely to be able to read a grimoire in AS and not able at all if it's in Old Oeridian. This all helps to control the proliferation of spells and makes each one really valuable as well as channeling players into researching their own which requires time.
I like the idea that mages writing in Common may be being plain lazy and it's these mages who are unlikely to ever amount to anything special as they've probably never bothered to learn the other languages necessary for a broad understanding. This will explain why some will only ever be scribes or hedge wizards.
If you're going to go this route, I'd suggest that each mage writes in his mother tongue. Most modern spell books would thus be in Common or perhaps Olven. Some may be in Baklunish, Flan, or Oeridian, and an ancient grimoire may have been scribed in Suloise. If you want to avoid having a "universal language of magic," then I wouldn't have all wizards scribe their books in Ancient Baklunish, for instance, because that still gives you a universal language.
What if each Magician wrote in his native tongue -- for example -- but each School of Magic (Greyhawk, Rel Mord, et al) did so in their own specific code.
Anyone finding the spellbook could read it, if they can read the native language, but could not use it or learn from it without the code.
All Magicians would know this, since they are trained in Magic. The "common" man would not. It would then be a simple matter of your Magician figuring out which school and which code was used in writing the book.
But then, not so simple. He needs to be able to read the language in question and then find a way to learn the code used.
Not impossible, but not easy. A challenging way to learn the new spell from the "new" spell book he just found.
Well if anyone should know the answer to my question it SHOULD be the servant of Boccob .
I agree with both comments above that most Mages would probably scribe in their native tongue and I think that will be the case IMC. Perhaps the question should be, do you think mages would scribe in a more obscure language in order to protect or to limit the accessability of their grimoires? Would there be any benefit?
The idea of a sub-language or a guild dialect is an interesting one that would be easy to add to my game because of the simplicity of the skills system in BRP.
In D&D the magic tongue is used as a way to exclude those who are non magic users from using spells. In BRP a commoner could read magic texts but, because they have not received training in using magic, the works would be unusable and possibly non-sensical.
Good stuff, guys, many thanks. It's not easy switching systems whilst trying to retain most of the feel of the old.
Perhaps the question should be, do you think mages would scribe in a more obscure language in order to protect or to limit the accessability of their grimoires? Would there be any benefit?
Certainly. For example, the magic school in Nevond Nevnend would teach in ancient Flannae, but still with its own code.
The magic school in Chendl might teach in old Oeridian, or Ancient Suloise. But still with their own code.
Don't theives have an ability to use scrolls? If so, does that imply any language can be used? Are we going to say that what is on a scroll would be the same as on the pages of a book?
My first reaction is that D&D implies a magic language which is a language unto itself. If you want to use a language for magic that isn't it's own thing, then do you pick just one? Could it be any? If one, would you want to make it something that doesn't make sense in-game such as a real-life language like Greek or Latin? Or maybe if you're taking Spanish classes, it could be Spanish? Or maybe take a queue from a novel like an Earthsea novel where the Dragon language is the magic language.
When your characters see "Diabolus in Musica" do they think "Slayer"?
In the Call of Cthulhu game (which uses the same system, I believe) you can find grimoires in a variety of languages: English, German, Greek, Aramaic, Latin, Lemurian, Atlantean, and so on. There's no real need for a single "language of magic" - the magic is in the names of power that are invoked, the sacrifice of the material components, and the arcane formulae embedded in the syllables and gestures.
I'm with Mystic on this, then; each mage can record her spells in whatever language she's most familiar with, or deems most appropriate. Baklunish magi will typically scribe their spells in classical Baklunish, magi from the modern city of Greyhawk will write in Common unless they decide to use ancient languages or some kind of code they developed themselves.
Note, however, that even if there is a "language of magic," each letter of which is fraught with arcane significance, a spellbook won't necessarily be written entirely in it. Besides the actual words of the spell, written in Magickese, there will be instructions in other languages on exactly how to hold one's hands, how to pose, instructions for preparing the material components, notes about volume and pitch, and so on. The language of magic is a code that has a big disadvantage: you can't speak in it without risking warping reality, perhaps disastrously. So it's only used for the vocal components of the spell itself, not mundane things like telling the magic-user how to best harvest his bat guano.
I'm with the Mystic One on this. The language itself isn't the issue but the formula of magic used is. Each wizard regardless whether he was taught by a single master or was an academy graduate learns the basis of the code if you will from that master who learned it from his and so forth. Now the root of the code is the same for each wizard which is why wizards can transcribe spells into their spellbooks from other spellbooks. It takes time and effort to convert a specific wizard's code into their own. Read Magic is a shortcut spell used to break an individual wizard's code.
Thieves who are skilled at taking things apart learn enough basics to casts spells from scrolls but they have a fail chance due to the fact they don't understand the full concepts of the code (Sorta like the difference between a hacker and a 'script kiddie')
Thinking of the 'language of magic' in this fashion does lead to the concept of certain variations of the root formula having an effect on certain spells and spellcasting. A permutation of the spell code that limits the amount of somatic gestures at the cost of more complex verbal component thus making the spell easier to cast in armor but more difficult to cast under duress (Making it easier to botch the spell when a concentration check is called for).
I would say Draconic, Elven, Ancient Baklunish, Ancient Suloise, and Elemental tongues as well as Planar tongues like Abyssal, or Elysium. So many different languages I would not use common or Oeridian but might consider Ancient Flan who's to say some stores of magic may even be in Ancient Rhopan though rare.
For my thoughts on this, I post an excerpt from one of my favorite books, On Stranger Tides by Tim Powers. Magick in that book is quite cool.
"Abruptly the two chanted litanies became identical, and the two men were speaking in perfect unison, syllable for syllable—though the white man was still speaking ancient Hebrew and the black man was still speaking his peculiar mix of tongues. Astonished by it even as he participated, Hurwood felt the first tremors of real awe at this impossibly prolonged coincidence. Over the sharp fumes of the spilled rum and the rusty reek of the blood there was suddenly a new smell, the hot-metal smell of magic, though far
stronger now than he'd ever encountered it before ..."
The etymology of the word magic, coming from the 14th century, defines it as "the art of influencing events and producing marvels." I am suggesting that casting a spell is not the words, but the verbal component. Like a Sutra, it is the form of the words that matter, not the specific syllables. Two spell casters speaking two different languages casting the same spell produce identical chants using different words.[/u]
One of the hardest things about changing the campaigns' game system has been trying to get some distance or perspective on how I've converted things.
The player that had converted his character indicated that he had a captured spellbook and did his character still have it. I wanted the book to be something other than a book of spells and so naturally searched the articles here for something interesting and came across the aforementioned tome. Then, as Rasgon says above, I remembered that in CoC books of spells come in different languages and whilst on this occasion I didn't want to stitch up the player by saying "you have an interesting tome, but can't read it" I didn't want to preclude that in the future. I also want to reward players who spend time developing skills such as Literacy.
What goes hand in hand with BRP's concept is the idea that whatever language the spell is written in matters not if you have no training in the techniques involved in actually manipulating the words/gestures/inflections and that last quote is bang on the money.
I'll have to ponder on whether to have different guilds or academies use their own codes. This creates a lot of flexibilty when a mage writes a spell down or creates a copied grimoire but may require a bit of work for me.
What makes this very different from D&D is that Priests are subject to the same rules as they will be using magic as well. So each guild will be guarding its own store of knowledge as will each church.
My eyes just alighted on the banner at the top of the page with a difference.
This topic might have been better placed in the "other game systems" category but I figured it might not get noticed so I've been a little cheeky putting it here. (Looks around for Ceb's axe )
Yeah, you are getting the axe...in a little bit. Try not to make this a habit, nor should anyone else.
To the topic, you might want to take some inspiration from fantasy fiction. For instance, the wizards of Ursula K. Le Guin's Earthsea have power over things because they know their true names in some primordial language of magic/creation(I may be off on the details a bit as it has been years since I've read those books), which is what allows them to manipulate things. It requires training too of course, and "the gift" too maybe; I can't recall exactly. In any rules system, even one that just required a Language % roll, there are ways to keep everyone from being able to learn the language in the first place, or even limit how much can be learned.
One mechanism I have used for uber powerful magic(usually powerful ritual spells of a scope deemed beyond 9th level in power, or that I just wan to severely limit) is that it can be written down, but doing so rips it from the mind of the person writing it. The reading of it puts it in the mind of another and removes it from the page. A sort of knowledge transference. The magical information can only be possessed by a limited few, or be held in a limited number books/scrolls/whatever. Also, such powerful magic can only be written down by those who are very powerful(who will then lose it), and only the most powerful of the very powerful can write it down without having it ripped from their minds in doing so(these individuals would be extremely rare). As these super powerful individuals are not all that keen on sharing, let alone losing anything from their own minds, you won't be finding too many magical writings of these kinds just lying around. With proper restrictions, you won't find too many people able to read the magical writing it at all either.
Now, imagine if nearly all magic of all power levels were handled that way. That makes for some rare magic limited to only those meant to have access to it in the first place. It just depends on how you want magic to play out. _________________ - Moderator/Admin (in some areas)/Member -
Last edited by Cebrion on Sat Mar 19, 2011 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Now, imagine if nearly all magic of all power levels were handled that way. That makes for some rare magic limited to only those meant to have access to it in the first place. It just depends on how you want magic to play out.
A lot like that in fact. Good stuff.
I had a feeling this thread would end up being more about GH than BRP anyway and that was the intention.
Your default your home language you would get 10 ranks + int mod, secondary language you would get 5 ranks in + int mod
DC5 simple words and phrases
DC10 fluent conversation
DC15 elaborate world play
DC20 would be old dialect of the language
Further I am going to insist that place start playing there home language and common only. Any other language slots need to be fill later as the travel and spend time with another races and countries. Basically using the DC options above players would learn new languages through there studies and adventures. A charactre could take from 3 months to 12 months (game time) to learn a new language. Every few months he would make a DC check to move up a few points this would show his studies, use of the language or prolong stay in an area where the language is spoken. The older and more obscure languages would take long to master and would also have higher DC check needed to master it.
I posted this in my suggested house rules, but I think this sort of system could be applied to an ancient draconian, demonic, angelic language that had been past down from master to apprentice over the years. The language itself would have changed over the years with the introduction of Suel, Baklunish influences and dialects.
Rating Fluency
1–5 Knows only a few dozen words, can count to 10.May
only communicate simple ideas. Complex communication
(Bargain, Persuade, etc.) is impossible. For example,
“Food. Sell me.”
6–25 Gets across simple requests, enough to be understood
and survive day to day. Complex communications
(Bargain, Persuade, etc.) are Difficult actions. For
example, “How much moneys for this leg of lamb?”
26–50 Assured communication. One can speak better than a
stupid native, getting most ideas across. Communication
skills are not restricted, but certain actions may
still be Difficult. For example, “How much? But this lamb
was much cheaper yesterday!”
51–75 Allows speaker to tell stories, sagas, songs, etc.
Idioms and jokes become accessible. Your character
can pass for native. Complex communications are
now rolled at the speaker’s full skill. For example, “Look
at this cut! The lamb was rotten before it was butchered,
and is clearly not even worth the sweat of the laborer who
carried it here.”
76–00 The language of poets, philosophers, scientists, and
diplomats. Not only can your character pass for
native, he or she can mimic one or more local dialects.
Jargon and obscure forms of speech come easily. For
example, “Surely the assessment of this specimen of
provender could be reevaluated in light of its advanced decomposition".
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