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    Canonfire :: View topic - Where are they now file; Arkalan Sammal
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    Where are they now file; Arkalan Sammal
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 13, 2006
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    From: Frinton on Sea England

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    Sat Apr 23, 2011 1:53 am  
    Where are they now file; Arkalan Sammal

    Does anyone know what became of Arkalan Sammal in "official" terms post CY591?

    The last reference I have is "The Adventure Begins" where he seems destined to die from alcoholism in The Savant.

    Are there any later references? Living Greyhawk completely passed me by so I've no idea whether he reappeared later.

    My campaign is set in 593 and a character is about to have a meeting in The Savant. I want to know whether Arkalan's seat is still occupied.
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
    Posts: 3310
    From: Michigan

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    Sat Apr 23, 2011 5:29 am  

    That's entirely up to you, though if Arkalan isn't dead from alcoholism you'll have to decide why.

    Possibility one: It's only been two years. He's not dead yet, but he's getting there.

    Possibility two: His brother contacted him and explained his actions to Arkalan's satisfaction. He's got a new lease on life, cleaned himself up, and he's actively working as his brother's agent in the city.

    Possibility three: Arkalan doesn't agree with his brother's actions, or is too concerned with his reputation for his personal views to make himself feel better. However, he eventually manages to find a kind of peace and is no longer quite as self-destructive as formerly.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Aug 13, 2001
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    Sun Apr 24, 2011 2:43 pm  

    LGJ #5 has the most recent entry for him that I know of:

    "On most nights, a quiet scholar of Baklunish descent can be found sitting in an out-of-the-way alcove, drowning himself slowly on foul spirits while perusing ancient scrolls stained with spilled beer. The once-proud scholar, Arkalan Sammal of Ket (LN hm Expl7, Int 23), succumbed to the numbing, forgiving embrace of alcohol shortly after his older brother, the archmage Rary, turned traitor on the city, killing fellow wizards Tenser and Otiluke and immolating several blocks of the city in magical fire. Despite Arkalan's public
    disavowal of his brother in 584 CY, some Greyhawkers still cast an unfairly suspicious eye in his direction. He was sacked from his instructor position at Grey College in 585, and has spent the ensuing years in service to adventuring bands, a practice he loathes and continues only to finance his further submersion into the world of alcoholism.
    His mind is still sharp, though his physical condition is deteriorating. Lost in despair, he fears his brother might turn on him at any time. Still, he hopes to find someone who can restore Rary to his former rational self, as the brothers were once very close. Recently, Arkalan has had further cause for losing himself in drink with the news from Ket of a serious illness in the family. If Arkalan's skills of observation hadn't become so impaired, he surely would have noticed the several furtive figures who have been watching him from shadows in recent weeks."
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 20, 2005
    Posts: 158
    From: Little Rock, Arkansas

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    Sun Apr 24, 2011 10:26 pm  

    I figure having a cleric (oddly not given a name at 5th level, Uber-Curate?) cast Cure Disease from time to time should keep a chap happily downing the suds with never a bother from the liver. That's why you make the weekly tithes.
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 04, 2008
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    Mon Apr 25, 2011 9:25 am  

    I'm one of the very few that I know of that actually really liked Carl Sargent's (and Dave Cook before him; if I'm remembering the author correctly; the text from the WARs boxed set) plot elements of the wars and thier effects...

    I mention that to say that I DO NOT like attempts to make Robilar and Rary "misunderstood" or "duped" or "Clones from an Alternate Universe"; and so therefore; in my version of Greyhawk; they remain the leaders of the new "Bright Lands" nation.

    In that vein; while Arkalan is still a bit of a lush; he actively works hard to help those opposed to his brother's new nation...and many of the Good and Powerful in GH City help him and respect him; most especially Ravel; the head cleric of the Temple of Rao. The two men get along very well due to thier intellects and respect for logic.

    Question: Is any of the LG stuff actually considered "canon"? I didn't think it was; therefore leaving the last "official" work of cannon being the Gazeteer and the Adventure Begins; but maybe I'm wrong...?
    GreySage

    Joined: Aug 03, 2001
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    From: Michigan

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    Mon Apr 25, 2011 10:06 am  

    maxvale76 wrote:
    Question: Is any of the LG stuff actually considered "canon"? I didn't think it was; therefore leaving the last "official" work of cannon being the Gazeteer and the Adventure Begins; but maybe I'm wrong...?


    In the last decade, there were two different bodies officially empowered by WotC to determine what Greyhawk canon was for their own purposes:

    The Living Greyhawk triads and Circle.
    The Paizo editors.

    So there were two different separate Greyhawk canons. Paizohawk accepted all Greyhawk-related Dungeon and Dragon Magazine articles and adventures that its editors were aware of (especially the adventure paths and the Castle Maure series), as well as the Living Greyhawk Journal, as canon, and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk (set in 597 CY) followed Paizohawk canon. Except for the adventures Erik Mona wrote for the Living Greyhawk campaign, Paizohawk didn't incorporate any other Living Greyhawk stuff, mostly because they didn't have the time to work closely with the triads, or have the rights to most Living Greyhawk material. Paizohawk accepted Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil (set in 594 CY) as canon, since a location from that adventure was on the Paizo Greyhawk map. Fiendish Codex I: Hordes of the Abyss was also intimately tied to (and treated as canon by) Paizohawk, being written by the same people overseeing Paizo's periodicals. Expedition to the Demonweb Pits was referenced in Paizohawk as well, in one of the last Savage Tide adventures, so it must also be considered part of Paizohawk.

    Living Greyhawk accepted all the Living Greyhawk Journals as canon, but didn't incorporate other Dungeon and Dragon magazine stuff. The adventure paths weren't part of Living Greyhawk canon, and Paizohawk ideas like the Dungeon Magazine version of Evard and Erac's Cousin as the Unnamable Hierarch didn't appear in Living Greyhawk, although Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk was incorporated into the campaign, along with a few other 3e adventures like Red Hand of Doom. The majority of the Living Greyhawk material written by the regional triads and adventure authors was only considered canonical in the Living Greyhawk campaign itself.

    As for Wizards of the Coast itself, the official word early on in the 3e era was that only the Dungeons & Dragons Gazetteer (the abridged version of the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer) would be considered canon for core 3e products. Later on, even that was dropped, and core 3e stopped having a default setting worth mentioning in the late 3.5 era. The 4e era, of course, has the Nentir Vale setting, which is its own thing. The only 3e-era WotC explicitly Greyhawk products (as opposed to "corehawk" references like Complete Arcane) were the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer, Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, and Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk. The first two drew from 2e-era canon (certainly not just the D&D Gazetteer), and the third was intimately tied to Paizohawk, being by the same authors, but accepted by the Living Greyhawk campaign as well. Some Paizohawk concepts from the adventure paths became part of the core setting in 3e and even 4e via Fiendish Codex I and Epic Evils.

    Another "canon" that might be identified is Gygaxian Greyhawk, which would include every Greyhawk product published by TSR up to 1985 (maybe including Oriental Adventures), and then the New Infinities Gord the Rogue books and Gygaxian ideas published in the Oerth Journal like Dorga Torgu. Maybe some of the Gord-compatible multiverse ideas from Mythus Magic, too. This would be different from Gygax and Kuntz's original Lake Geneva Greyhawk campaign.

    So to answer your question, yes, the Living Greyhawk Journals were canon in two different official versions of the Greyhawk campaign setting. Since your own campaign is neither Paizohawk nor Living Greyhawk, it's up to you what you accept as canon in your game.

    The Great Library of Greyhawk wiki treats anything published by TSR, WotC, or in Dungeon and Dragon Magazines as canon, unless something explicitly states that it isn't. The Living Greyhawk Journals were published by WotC.

    It might be useful if the wiki had categories (Paizohawk, Living Greyhawk, Corehawk, Gygaxian Greyhawk, Lake Geneva Campaign) to describe the different kinds of canon, but I haven't bothered to create them yet. If I did, some things would be kind of ambiguous, like Andy Miller's Greyhawk articles in Dragon and Dungeon Magazine during the 1990s, or Robert S. Mullin's Greyhawk Grimoires series, which I'm not sure that anyone accepted as canon. And it would probably have to involve writing separate articles on the same subjects to better distinguish what comes from Corehawk, Paizohawk, or Living Greyhawk (and so on).
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
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    From: San Diego, CA

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    Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:14 pm  
    Another Option...

    This character seems to be ripe for a tragic tale that ultimately leads to redemption.

    You could always have him pass away, but have him still introduced to your characters in a mystery scenario where there is an actual haunting months or years later. Set up sightings in The Savant, strange events, unexplained eye-witness accounts where the characters have to piece together the puzzle and finally figure out who or what's behind it all (the ghost of Arkalan Sammal) and what the players must do to put his poor soul to rest.

    In doing so, a final confrontation with Arkalan (or continued interaction with his ghost) could give the players some great insight, clues and produce threads to lead them into further adventures that involve stopping Rary deep within the Bright Lands themselves. Smile
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    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Dec 04, 2008
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    Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:16 pm  

    WOW....seriously man....are you the president of MENSA? You must have the biggest brain (at least, for storing GH info, if nothing else! :) ) that I've ever known! :)

    Thanks for the info....yeah; other than the LG Gazeteer (which is the only 3rd Edition product I own) was pretty much the last GH product I bought and I've never owned any Dragon or Dungeon magazines; so I really know nothing about any articles and/or adventures that came out of them.

    Anyway, thanks for the info!
    Apprentice Greytalker

    Joined: Nov 28, 2010
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    Mon Apr 25, 2011 1:20 pm  

    Rasgon is an amazing source of information. You wonder where he stores it all and the references come so effortless.
    _________________
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    Master Greytalker

    Joined: Apr 13, 2006
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    From: Frinton on Sea England

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    Tue Apr 26, 2011 9:23 am  

    Thanks, guys. Cool

    It was quite nice that Arkalan had largely been "officially" ignored because it makes him all the more usable.

    My player's character has observed Arkalan in The Savant, has a rough idea who he is and........let's wait and see whether the pc might involve himself in any tragedy and redemption that takes place. Personally, I hope he does.
    Adept Greytalker

    Joined: Sep 21, 2003
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    Thu Apr 28, 2011 11:45 am  

    I could swear that I read some excellent Greyhawk fan fiction long time ago, where a cleric of Rao from Greyhawk City helps Arkalan. (I believe in the end they confront an animus on horseback).

    Anybody else remember that fiction ?
    Journeyman Greytalker

    Joined: Jun 12, 2003
    Posts: 273
    From: Boston

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    Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:29 am  

    To further elaborate on Rasgon's fine post, there's one more wrinkle:

    A few weeks back, when attempting to deal with these canonical issues, Britt and I found a public post by a WOTC/RPGA official (SRM, maybe, I forget) that basically said (and this is a rough guess based on my memory of the post), "Nothing after the LGG is canon. Nothing before the LGG is canon. All future canon will be vetted so as to not conflict with the LGG. Oerth is frozen at 591 as far as we are concerned. Living Greyhawk will have its own timeline and canon past 591 CY just as any home campaign would. Any future Greyhawk products we release should be considered to be set in 591 CY until further notice."

    Now, the reason why he said this, iirc, was that he was trying to explain that everything in Living Greyhawk would have to conform to official WOTC canon. To do so, they had to shrink the canon as there was simply too much stuff to keep track of. As a result, everything that WOTC cared to keep canon about Greyhawk supposedly made it into the LGG. Wish I could find that post. I think I posted a link directly to this post a few weeks ago during the greytalk. If no one finds it by next Thursday, someone remind Britt to look for it (I'll be busy this week).

    The odd thing about this position is that, afaik, they never adhered to it. As early as Dec. 24, 2001, a Triad member named Tyler Bannister was trying to compile a complete list of Greyhawk canon sources on the LG Triad yahoo group discussion board for use in the LG campaign. If he was in error, the Circle could have corrected him then.

    In addition, as early as 1999, future LG mod authors and Triad members were asking Mona what should be considered canon. I just found a post from Mona on what LG might incorporate as canon, written in 1999.
    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/938

    Hey, Rasgon, check this out: here Mona says that stuff in Dragon and Dungeon weren't really considered canon.
    "My job has nothing to do with Greyhawk articles in Dragon or Dungeon. Frankly, I can almost assure you that there will be conflicts. That's what happens when every fan of the game is trowing (sic) paint on the same canvas. For instance, the most recent Dragon magazine featured a Greyhawk article that contains several references I would not have agreed with, had I been aware of them, or had it been my job to do much other than frown. The general "rule" around here has been that, while many Dragon or Dungeon articles fit really, really well within game world continuity, something isn't "official" until it's published in a gaming product." (emphasis mine)
    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/3190

    And from another of his posts:
    "Lastly, articles published in Dragon, Dungeon, and Polyhedron are sort of quasi-canonical, which means that, more often than not, they do not conflict any of the above criteria. Sometimes, however, they do. Generally, anything in a gaming product (not magazine) that does not violate one of the above criteria is considered canonical."
    See the rest of the message for the "what makes canon canon?" criteria he lays out.
    http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Living_Greyhawk/message/16765

    There are also some great posts on that board from 99 where Mona talks about writing the LGG.

    Casey
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